New Official List Discussion

[AdamH]

and so it begins ...

I was a bit disappointed when I saw that films with a handful of favorites would become official on a volatile list. Can't say I'm surprised someone would be gaming the gamification. If this continues, those lists effected should be locked/only updated twice a month max. Granted, that won't stop attempted manipulation, but will give the rest of of us time to see things.

I'm pretty certain it will settle down after a couple of months. There's a limit to how many shorts can enter the list. What will happen is the same shorts (plus a tiny number of new ones) will keep entering/re-entering and get more checks and favourites and then the gap to the non-official shorts will get bigger and bigger. What jlfitz is doing simply makes it harder for the non-list films to get in. It's worth noting that, whilst 12 new shorts entered the list on the last update, at least a couple of them were re-entering. I think a high percentage of the changes will be films re-entering rather than brand new shorts.

hope you're right, but we do have a few people on the site whose motives are less than honorable. Will see. Certainly less interesting right now than the Speaker of the House circus.

Unless a bunch of fake accounts are created (this would be noticed in the end I reckon), there's basically a limit to how many shorts will ever get in. For the most part, people are only watching films that enter the list. They watch those films and many check them without favouriting them (as they are very old shorts that won't meet the normal "favourites criteria for most people). By watching them and not favouriting them, the ratio gets worse and some fall off the list. Others replace them and go through the same cycle. There are some exceptions which enter the list and get more genuine favourites. My basic point is that there's a very limited overall number of shorts that will ever enter the list and the vast majority will just be shorts cycling in and out of the list. Those shorts will eventually reach a point where everyone who is working on the list has checked them (as they are simply ones re-entering the list) and then the whole list will settle down. Anyone faking favourites is simply speeding up that process unfairly.

There is absolutely no source for people checking the non-list shorts (beyond the small number in official lists which have, largely, been official for years). There aren't any new releases (obviously) and there's no reason for 99.9% of users on the site to ever watch the non-list pre-1910 shorts so there's basically no way for them to ever suddenly enter the list which is why it will be a cycle of probably 125-150 or so shorts going in and out of the list.

[xianjiro]

Unless a bunch of fake accounts are created (this would be noticed in the end I reckon), there's basically a limit to how many shorts will ever get in. For the most part, people are only watching films that enter the list.

but then, how would we know -- we do still have the issue of all the new spam accounts. I guess if we monitor https://www.icheckmovies.com/profiles/ and look for accounts with lots of favorites? Then you have to open their page and the pages of favorites ... It's pretty time intensive and in no time, an account created for such a purpose will be on page 10, 20, 50 as more spam accounts are created.

I guess monitoring the list activity and looking for large number of favorites by an individual would also me an option, but then again, we have enough difficulty deciding a user's intentions when they check lost/unseeable films

[xianjiro]

list activity won't help -- just checked

[WalterNeff]

Do you know what new list would be stable for all time? My Pre-Code list. Just sayin'.

[AdamH]

Unless a bunch of fake accounts are created (this would be noticed in the end I reckon), there's basically a limit to how many shorts will ever get in. For the most part, people are only watching films that enter the list.

but then, how would we know -- we do still have the issue of all the new spam accounts. I guess if we monitor https://www.icheckmovies.com/profiles/ and look for accounts with lots of favorites? Then you have to open their page and the pages of favorites ... It's pretty time intensive and in no time, an account created for such a purpose will be on page 10, 20, 50 as more spam accounts are created.

I guess monitoring the list activity and looking for large number of favorites by an individual would also me an option, but then again, we have enough difficulty deciding a user's intentions when they check lost/unseeable films

I don't think it will be an issue. I am speculating (unproven) about one user. I don't think it is going to be a widespread thing. Some people will favourite many shorts from that era and should be allowed to as we all have different criteria for favourites. I judge pre-1910s shorts differently to modern feature films. I honestly just don't think people care enough about the list. Like I said, there might be thousands of shorts from that era but very few will ever have enough checks/favourites to enter the list so it simply won't be an issue. Most of the new entries soon enough will be shorts that previously dropped off the list and I don't see why that matters.

A positive from the list, for me at least, is I'm actively seeking out more pre-1910s shorts. Interesting to watch them all and I'm even looking beyond the top 100.

[xianjiro]

A positive from the list, for me at least, is I'm actively seeking out more pre-1910s shorts. Interesting to watch them all and I'm even looking beyond the top 100.

agreed

the rest? will just have to wait an see what shakes out

[Tasselfoot]

You can't get upset at 1 person choosing to favorite or not favorite as they see fit, with their 1 account.

You can (maybe) get upset at 1 person creating 20 (or 50, or 100) accounts and choosing to favorite or not favorite strategically. Shouldn't be TOO hard to spot, seeing as most of these films have single-digit favorites currently.

[kongs_speech]

Do you know what new list would be stable for all time? My Pre-Code list. Just sayin'.

I really don't know why it hasn't happened yet. It's a void that needs filling in regards to official status.

[flavo5000]

Do you know what new list would be stable for all time? My Pre-Code list. Just sayin'.

I mean, technically you got two and a half new pre-code lists, right? Pre-1910s, 1920s and about half 1930s all are PRE-Hayes Code instituted.

[OldAle1]

and so it begins ...

I was a bit disappointed when I saw that films with a handful of favorites would become official on a volatile list. Can't say I'm surprised someone would be gaming the gamification. If this continues, those lists effected should be locked/only updated twice a month max. Granted, that won't stop attempted manipulation, but will give the rest of of us time to see things.

I'm pretty certain it will settle down after a couple of months. There's a limit to how many shorts can enter the list. What will happen is the same shorts (plus a tiny number of new ones) will keep entering/re-entering and get more checks and favourites and then the gap to the non-official shorts will get bigger and bigger. What jlfitz is doing simply makes it harder for the non-list films to get in. It's worth noting that, whilst 12 new shorts entered the list on the last update, at least a couple of them were re-entering. I think a high percentage of the changes will be films re-entering rather than brand new shorts.

hope you're right, but we do have a few people on the site whose motives are less than honorable. Will see. Certainly less interesting right now than the Speaker of the House circus.

Come on, what could POSSIBLY be more important in life than continuing to reign at #4 on a site viewed by THOUSANDS of movie-geeks every week?

[Torgo]

Do you know what new list would be stable for all time? My Pre-Code list. Just sayin'.

I really don't know why it hasn't happened yet. It's a void that needs filling in regards to official status.

From now on, I will FURIOUSLY offer opposition to that, just to keep the fantastic meme alive.

[Lakigigar]

A positive from the list, for me at least, is I'm actively seeking out more pre-1910s shorts. Interesting to watch them all and I'm even looking beyond the top 100.

Is there a way to know what films are beyond the top 100 (to know what is close to entering). I'm curious to see whether a lot of end-2010 films are just outside the top 2010s list?

One user went and favourited every single pre-1910s film that fell off the list all at the same time (not after watching them). Obviously trying to keep the checks official by faking favourites. Hmm...

Shouldn't users who do that, obviously be banned. I don't want this fraud.

[kongs_speech]

A positive from the list, for me at least, is I'm actively seeking out more pre-1910s shorts. Interesting to watch them all and I'm even looking beyond the top 100.

Is there a way to know what films are beyond the top 100 (to know what is close to entering). I'm curious to see whether a lot of end-2010 films are just outside the top 2010s list?

Incredibly horrible idea, unless you want the gamification to completely and utterly destroy the website. People would be manipulating it left and right to get their favorites onto the list, then others would vote down those favorites, and it just turns into a massive catastrophe. Let's not, and also say we didn't.

[Torgo]

Yeah, it's one of those "This is why we can't have nice things" cases.

One user went and favourited every single pre-1910s film that fell off the list all at the same time (not after watching them). Obviously trying to keep the checks official by faking favourites. Hmm...

Shouldn't users who do that, obviously be banned. I don't want this fraud.

Now prove someone didn't honestly fav a film in good fav faith.
I could also go and dislike all of the Reddit Top 250. It's a free country!

[kongs_speech]

Yeah, it's one of those "This is why we can't have nice things" cases.

One user went and favourited every single pre-1910s film that fell off the list all at the same time (not after watching them). Obviously trying to keep the checks official by faking favourites. Hmm...

Shouldn't users who do that, obviously be banned. I don't want this fraud.

Now prove someone didn't honestly fav a film in good fav faith.
I could also go and dislike all of the Reddit Top 250. It's a free country!

Oh yes, 100% this too. It's very obvious that jfitz is trying to manipulate the list. We all know that's the case. However, it cannot be proven, and unless I'm mistaken, there are no clear rules about how the favorite and dislike system is meant to function. His actions are blatantly suspect, but that's a subjective judgment, however likely, and therefore can't be used to punish.

[Fergenaprido]

A positive from the list, for me at least, is I'm actively seeking out more pre-1910s shorts. Interesting to watch them all and I'm even looking beyond the top 100.

Is there a way to know what films are beyond the top 100 (to know what is close to entering). I'm curious to see whether a lot of end-2010 films are just outside the top 2010s list?

Incredibly horrible idea, unless you want the gamification to completely and utterly destroy the website. People would be manipulating it left and right to get their favorites onto the list, then others would vote down those favorites, and it just turns into a massive catastrophe. Let's not, and also say we didn't.

I don't think it's an unreasonable question. You can already do this for the IMDB lists by checking out the source. I'd like to think people are interested in the runners-up so they can see them before they possibly turn official and thus maintain their awards, as opposed to actively manipulating it. Also, it's not possible to "vote down" films on icm in a way that would alter these lists - dislikes aren't taken into account at all.

For the ICM lists, the only way to do this would be to do it manually: Sort all the films by favorites, download them (which isn't actually possible, so you'd have to find a mega-list to download to stand-in for "all films", plus I think you need to be a paid member to download other people's lists), and then calculate the weighted favorited ratio manually using the formula in a spreadsheet program, and then sort the results.

[Fergenaprido]

Yeah, it's one of those "This is why we can't have nice things" cases.

Shouldn't users who do that, obviously be banned. I don't want this fraud.

Now prove someone didn't honestly fav a film in good fav faith.
I could also go and dislike all of the Reddit Top 250. It's a free country!

Oh yes, 100% this too. It's very obvious that jfitz is trying to manipulate the list. We all know that's the case. However, it cannot be proven, and unless I'm mistaken, there are no clear rules about how the favorite and dislike system is meant to function. His actions are blatantly suspect, but that's a subjective judgment, however likely, and therefore can't be used to punish.

Do we know this though? He has tonnes of favourites, and his recent activity is watching a bunch of 1910s films, and then checking and favoriting them. Maybe he just enjoys the films for what they are and isn't trying to manipulate the list? You can always message him on icm and ask him instead wildly speculating and throwing out conspiracy theories.

[kongs_speech]

Yeah, it's one of those "This is why we can't have nice things" cases.



Now prove someone didn't honestly fav a film in good fav faith.
I could also go and dislike all of the Reddit Top 250. It's a free country!

Oh yes, 100% this too. It's very obvious that jfitz is trying to manipulate the list. We all know that's the case. However, it cannot be proven, and unless I'm mistaken, there are no clear rules about how the favorite and dislike system is meant to function. His actions are blatantly suspect, but that's a subjective judgment, however likely, and therefore can't be used to punish.

Do we know this though? He has tonnes of favourites, and his recent activity is watching a bunch of 1910s films, and then checking and favoriting them. Maybe he just enjoys the films for what they are and isn't trying to manipulate the list? You can always message him on icm and ask him instead wildly speculating and throwing out conspiracy theories.

Hell, I don't care. Take it up with Adam. He's the one who observed it and brought it to our attention.

[Torgo]

Speaking of Adam - to quote him on a more positive thing ..

Love the new lists. Best thing to happen on icm since they made 500<400 official. I'm even thinking of finally using the favourites feature properly on icm.

+1
I always used that in a skewed way (movies that speak personally to me, like .. Hitchcock or Scorsese? They speak to everybody, but Tetsuo - give me more of exactly that!) .. and I'm considering of turning that into a personal list and start helping films which I think are great. Because it .. finally means something!
All the favorites!

[xianjiro]

I'm pretty certain it will settle down after a couple of months. There's a limit to how many shorts can enter the list. What will happen is the same shorts (plus a tiny number of new ones) will keep entering/re-entering and get more checks and favourites and then the gap to the non-official shorts will get bigger and bigger. What jlfitz is doing simply makes it harder for the non-list films to get in. It's worth noting that, whilst 12 new shorts entered the list on the last update, at least a couple of them were re-entering. I think a high percentage of the changes will be films re-entering rather than brand new shorts.

hope you're right, but we do have a few people on the site whose motives are less than honorable. Will see. Certainly less interesting right now than the Speaker of the House circus.

Come on, what could POSSIBLY be more important in life than continuing to reign at #4 on a site viewed by THOUSANDS of movie-geeks every week?

ouch. burn

[xianjiro]

Yeah, it's one of those "This is why we can't have nice things" cases.



Now prove someone didn't honestly fav a film in good fav faith.
I could also go and dislike all of the Reddit Top 250. It's a free country!

Oh yes, 100% this too. It's very obvious that jfitz is trying to manipulate the list. We all know that's the case. However, it cannot be proven, and unless I'm mistaken, there are no clear rules about how the favorite and dislike system is meant to function. His actions are blatantly suspect, but that's a subjective judgment, however likely, and therefore can't be used to punish.

Do we know this though? He has tonnes of favourites, and his recent activity is watching a bunch of 1910s films, and then checking and favoriting them. Maybe he just enjoys the films for what they are and isn't trying to manipulate the list? You can always message him on icm and ask him instead wildly speculating and throwing out conspiracy theories.

well one point AdamH made about this issue was that movies were favorited BUT UNCHECKED -- that's what initially caught my interest. Clearly, users game the system, so it wasn't unexpected, but favoriting unseen films ...

[Fergenaprido]

Oh yes, 100% this too. It's very obvious that jfitz is trying to manipulate the list. We all know that's the case. However, it cannot be proven, and unless I'm mistaken, there are no clear rules about how the favorite and dislike system is meant to function. His actions are blatantly suspect, but that's a subjective judgment, however likely, and therefore can't be used to punish.

Do we know this though? He has tonnes of favourites, and his recent activity is watching a bunch of 1910s films, and then checking and favoriting them. Maybe he just enjoys the films for what they are and isn't trying to manipulate the list? You can always message him on icm and ask him instead wildly speculating and throwing out conspiracy theories.

well one point AdamH made about this issue was that movies were favorited BUT UNCHECKED -- that's what initially caught my interest. Clearly, users game the system, so it wasn't unexpected, but favoriting unseen films ...

I believe the point was they were already checked, but then the user was going back and favoriting them.

[joachimt]

Oh yes, 100% this too. It's very obvious that jfitz is trying to manipulate the list. We all know that's the case. However, it cannot be proven, and unless I'm mistaken, there are no clear rules about how the favorite and dislike system is meant to function. His actions are blatantly suspect, but that's a subjective judgment, however likely, and therefore can't be used to punish.

Do we know this though? He has tonnes of favourites, and his recent activity is watching a bunch of 1910s films, and then checking and favoriting them. Maybe he just enjoys the films for what they are and isn't trying to manipulate the list? You can always message him on icm and ask him instead wildly speculating and throwing out conspiracy theories.

well one point AdamH made about this issue was that movies were favorited BUT UNCHECKED -- that's what initially caught my interest. Clearly, users game the system, so it wasn't unexpected, but favoriting unseen films ...

But to repeat Fergy: Why not just ask him? Torgo implies it's impossible to prove he's not honestly favoriting them. Sure, it's possible to prove, just ask him. I've asked users about lots of weird behavior in the past decade and often I got an honest answer like: "Yeah, I checked that lost movie, because I can't find it and want to complete the list. Isn't that allowed?"
Alright, jlfitz wouldn't be THAT ignorant, but still.... just ask.

[AdamH]

He has over 1000 favourites. I might be wrong about the whole thing. Probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place. In fact, he has favourites quite a lot of the shorts from the list so I think I was wrong.

[Lakigigar]

A positive from the list, for me at least, is I'm actively seeking out more pre-1910s shorts. Interesting to watch them all and I'm even looking beyond the top 100.

Is there a way to know what films are beyond the top 100 (to know what is close to entering). I'm curious to see whether a lot of end-2010 films are just outside the top 2010s list?

Incredibly horrible idea, unless you want the gamification to completely and utterly destroy the website.

It already is so by people who don't want changes in the list and fav films just for the sake of it so that there would not be any changes in the list.

And it's just a question, i think i'm allowed to see what films are close? I personally would not like films because i want a film outside top 100 to enter it (and to be honest quite a lot of films have so many checks and favs that 1 fav or check more doesn't do anything at all). What I could do however is check a film just outside of it, to see if i like it if i haven't seen it yet.

[AdamH]

Not sure how easy it would be to see which films are close although I'm pretty sure the number number be small. I would be happy to make a top 250 list if people were interested. Not sure if it is a good idea or not but it would, at least, give people a chance to watch other shorts close the official list and potentially like them.

[xianjiro]

Do we know this though? He has tonnes of favourites, and his recent activity is watching a bunch of 1910s films, and then checking and favoriting them. Maybe he just enjoys the films for what they are and isn't trying to manipulate the list? You can always message him on icm and ask him instead wildly speculating and throwing out conspiracy theories.

well one point AdamH made about this issue was that movies were favorited BUT UNCHECKED -- that's what initially caught my interest. Clearly, users game the system, so it wasn't unexpected, but favoriting unseen films ...

I believe the point was they were already checked, but then the user was going back and favoriting them.

sorry, I see now that "not after watching them" can have two meanings -- I read it one way but now that I reread it again, can see the other reading. If he's checked them, then I've no complaint. If not, then it's suspect.

[dirty_score]

Imdb's Pre 1910 Top 50

[AdamH]

Can anyone say more on this? https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/la+ ... /comments/

Indeed, the short made in 1906 was titled La maison hantée ("the haunted house") and we don't know what it's about.

The short that we are all watching online is La maison ensorcelée (literally "the bewitched house") and it was made in 1908.

IMDB only has one bogus entry mixing the two shorts.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

Can anyone say more on this? https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/la+ ... /comments/

Indeed, the short made in 1906 was titled La maison hantée ("the haunted house") and we don't know what it's about.

The short that we are all watching online is La maison ensorcelée (literally "the bewitched house") and it was made in 1908.

IMDB only has one bogus entry mixing the two shorts.

IDK I can't find anything about the 1906 film that isn't clearly about this film. It wouldn't surprise me given naming conventions of the era, but we're all clearly watching and checking the same film, and the imdb page is referring to this film, and all the lists its part of are also talking about the same film so I guess the only issue is the year.

[John Milton]

I already checked this in 2021, but if I did so erroneously, please let me know.

[Tasselfoot]

I think my biggest gripe is that when you sort alphabetically, the Pre 1910s is listed at the end (After the Most Checked / Most Favorited, too) instead of the start... so all the color gradients and the proper ordering is off. To fix, this list could be re-named "1900s and earlier" or "1870s - 1900s"?

Any word on fixing this travesty?

[sol]

I think my biggest gripe is that when you sort alphabetically, the Pre 1910s is listed at the end (After the Most Checked / Most Favorited, too) instead of the start... so all the color gradients and the proper ordering is off. To fix, this list could be re-named "1900s and earlier" or "1870s - 1900s"?

Any word on fixing this travesty?

Huh. I never even realised that the list icons were colour-coded for a reason. Comes from always sorting my progress page by ?sort=rank rather than the default. That's pretty cool.

[Lakigigar]

I found this, it's an old list from the National Film Archive of Thailand

You can use google translate for this one. 100 Thai movies that Thai people should watch

https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_%E0%B ... 4%E0%B8%B9

[Fergenaprido]

I found this, it's an old list from the National Film Archive of Thailand

You can use google translate for this one. 100 Thai movies that Thai people should watch

https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_%E0%B ... 4%E0%B8%B9

Do you want to add it to icm Laki?

[Lakigigar]

I found this, it's an old list from the National Film Archive of Thailand

You can use google translate for this one. 100 Thai movies that Thai people should watch

https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_%E0%B ... 4%E0%B8%B9

Do you want to add it to icm Laki?

I'll try to, tho i don't see an english link (or even working link to the site). It's accessable in Thai on an archive link, seems like the site itself is dead. Hope i'll not encounter too many issues with finding the right titles.

It seems like Thai has a different calendar than us? Is that correct, i see weird stuff with the dates.



And this i can probably skip and get straight to docs, shorts and action movies (they seem to be divisioned that way).



The first one for example i find on YT (but it's literally the coronation ceremony of the King), which of course is video / film footage that's important as well.

I just don't know the policy of "news films" on the site.

EDIT: The coronation video seems pretty important, it's literally footage from 1926, but it's a news film and i can't find on letterboxd (not included in films from Thailand on letterboxd in the 1920s, and there are only 3 thai films from 1920s on letterboxd). It's a silent with both english and thai intertitles, but there's no named/credited director.

[Fergenaprido]

Yes, Thailand also uses a traditional calendar different from the common international one.

I'm sure there will be a number of films missing from IMDb/iCM. That's fine. You can list them in the description, and just add the ones you can find.

If it's too much trouble, I don't mind adding the list myself.

[Lakigigar]

Yes, Thailand also uses a traditional calendar different from the common international one.

I'm sure there will be a number of films missing from IMDb/iCM. That's fine. You can list them in the description, and just add the ones you can find.

If it's too much trouble, I don't mind adding the list myself.

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/100+ ... atch/laki/

This is what i have currently, but it's incredibly hard.

[Fergenaprido]

Yes, Thailand also uses a traditional calendar different from the common international one.

I'm sure there will be a number of films missing from IMDb/iCM. That's fine. You can list them in the description, and just add the ones you can find.

If it's too much trouble, I don't mind adding the list myself.

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/100+ ... atch/laki/

This is what i have currently, but it's incredibly hard.

There's no rush. It's a good start.

Edit: Did you know you can import films on imdb to icm? https://beta.icheckmovies.com/movies/add
You can also do it when editing a list via the URL tab.

Here are the four imdb URLs you have at the start of the description.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0488346/ - https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/kha ... phap-1985/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4022480/ - https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/wai+onlawon/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3065346/ - https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/the+yellow+sky/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2546108/ - https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/khru+ban+nok/

[Lakigigar]

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mary ... uide/erde/

https://www.amazon.com/Thai-Cinema-Comp ... B07S2HH98B

This seems to include most of the films i already added (with most of the other films being from a period later than 2004), but it's more of a book list.

I'll add the 4 you added, thanks.