Film World Cup - Season 3 - Discussion before preparation

[joachimt]

EDIT: Final poll question added. Voting deadline: October the 10th

So let's try to start a new season of iCM Forum's World Cup next January. Before we get to the preparations, we should decide if we want to change some things or if we're gonna do it the same way.

For all the newbies (and for people who didn't follow it last time or just have a bad memory) here is a short summary. The summary tells how we did it last time. This topic is a discussion about whether or not we want to change some things.

The World Cup is a movie tournament between countries. 48 countries are presented by managers (people from this forum). Each manager can represent multiple countries (because we probably don't find 48 different managers). The managers are the ones to select the movies for his country.
In the first round, the 48 countries will be divided into 16 groups of three. Those three countries battle against each other. For every country a movie will be selected. Within three weeks, people can watch those three movies (or you have seen some before) and vote for the order of the three movies. At the deadline, there is a winner and that country proceeds to the next round.
In the second round 16 countries are left. The managers pick a new movie for their country. The 16 countries are scheduled in one-on-one matches. Each match lasts two weeks. Participants watch both movies and vote for the order. At the end of round two 8 countries proceed. We continue this until there is a winner.
The matches overlap one week in round 1 and half a week in the next rounds, so the pace is about 1.5 movies a week (if you have seen some before and don't rewatch, the pace for you is lower).
Movies must have less than 1000 checks the moment they are selected.
Only one movie per director in the whole tournament.
No movies from previous seasons.
Runtime must not exceed 180 minutes. There's no minimum runtime.

You can find all topics of both previous seasons here.

If you have questions about this before voting, feel free to ask.

[joachimt]

I want to add more poll questions. How do I do that?

[Mario Gaborović]

I have only two suggestions:

1) That Group A consists of films which have the fewest number of checks in total after initial draw, as we learned that the voting is most vibrant at the very beginning. That way some balance between groups could be achieved.

2) Raise the bar at 1200 checks; it would gain more votes, and that way haters of "obscure" films couldn't complain.

[joachimt]

2) Raise the bar at 1200 checks; it would gain more votes, and that way haters of "obscure" films couldn't complain.

I planned to add this as a poll question, but I can't see how I can attach multiple polls to one topic.

[weirdboy]

Monty should be able to answer that question...

[joachimt]

Oh wait, I see it now.

[joachimt]

All polls attached. If you don't have an opinion about a question, just don't answer that one. The number of votes also gives information about how much interest there is in changing something.

[joachimt]

Some stats about the threshold.

From the 1st season 55 out of 80 are still under 400 checks.
From the 2nd season that number is 63 out of 80.

Managers didn't pick a lot of movies between 400 and 1000 checks. If we raise the checkcount, I doubt they will pick movies with more checks.

[Nathan Treadway]

1.) 48 or 32 countries sounds about right. That should be determined during the signup phase, as it'll be hard to accurately gauge interest until then.
2.) Matchups should last 1 week.
3.) 9-12 months.
4.) Head to Head all the way through
5.) There shouldn't be a check limit, as it's too arbitrary. However, the spirit of the competition should be lesser seen films.

[Mario Gaborović]

Managers didn't pick a lot of movies between 400 and 1000 checks. If we raise the checkcount, I doubt they will pick movies with more checks.

You got that right.

And this time find a good manager for Belgium, because the country ended up 47th and 46th in two appearances.

[sortile9io]

1) That Group A consists of films which have the fewest number of checks in total after initial draw, as we learned that the voting is most vibrant at the very beginning. That way some balance between groups could be achieved.

I don't think balance should be a top priority, at least to the point of altering the natural schedule of the competition. If anything, the opening match should be the most attractive to engage participants in the rest of the competition. Which match would you choose to start the Football World Cup: Kuwait-Bolivia or Germany-Brazil?

[Mario Gaborović]

1) That Group A consists of films which have the fewest number of checks in total after initial draw, as we learned that the voting is most vibrant at the very beginning. That way some balance between groups could be achieved.

I don't think balance should be a top priority, at least to the point of altering the natural schedule of the competition. If anything, the opening match should be the most attractive to engage participants in the rest of the competition. Which match would you choose to start the Football World Cup: Kuwait-Bolivia or Germany-Brazil?

The Group A in the first season was seen by 48 people, and then, just few months later, another by only 20. That's a bit unfair towards people who chose the latter.
Anyway, do you have any other suggestion how groups could be balanced in terms of reaction??

[PeacefulAnarchy]

I didn't vote on "How should the schedule be?" because the answer to that only makes sense in response to the previous three questions.
Voted for 32 countries, 9-12 months, 1.5 movies per week.

[beavis]

I answered "no" to the first question, when there were no other questions yet, because the formula works well

However on some of the subsequent questions I did vote for departure from the current form... just because the formula that works well can still be tweaked into something better

Consensus is sometimes difficult to get at in a forum-form, so if after all votes some points remain in doubt, I would vote to leave them unchanged

[Mario Gaborović]

because the formula works well

You should consider Uzbekistan and this film, agree?

https://letterboxd.com/film/tenderness-1966/details/

[beavis]

Uzbekistan is certainly an interesting country, and I've seen enough from it already that I could have something for three rounds, but that is something for another, future, thread

[joachimt]

I didn't vote on "How should the schedule be?" because the answer to that only makes sense in response to the previous three questions.
Voted for 32 countries, 9-12 months, 1.5 movies per week.

Of course. If we go with 48 countries again, we can't do one-on-one the whole tournament.

[joachimt]

5.) There shouldn't be a check limit, as it's too arbitrary. However, the spirit of the competition should be lesser seen films.

Arbitrary maybe, but I don't want managers to get the chance to pick something from the top 100 of TSPDT. Not really a fair match in some match-ups.

[Fergenaprido]

For the schedule, I like the idea of 4 films per match in the opening round, and then the top 2 proceeding to the elimination stage, just like in the soccer World Cup.

[Nathan Treadway]

5.) There shouldn't be a check limit, as it's too arbitrary. However, the spirit of the competition should be lesser seen films.

Arbitrary maybe, but I don't want managers to get the chance to pick something from the top 100 of TSPDT. Not really a fair match in some match-ups.

Good point, which is the main reason I added the second sentence. I don't have too hard of a stance on anything, and it looks like that one would be a losing battle, based on the results thus far.

Maybe we can try and have a round of unofficial checks only? (I don't know if I'd like this, as the countries/films I have in mind are official...) The main drawback would probably be participation, as more it seems are willing to participate if the films have official status. (Any stats to back up this assumption?)

[beavis]

For the schedule, I like the idea of 4 films per match in the opening round, and then the top 2 proceeding to the elimination stage, just like in the soccer World Cup.

I like this idea. When only one movie gets through in the first pool phase it can be a bit unlucky for some, sometimes it is so close between two of them, this seems to give a bit of an extra chance if you're in such a "pool of death"

[maxwelldeux]

Maybe we can try and have a round of unofficial checks only? (I don't know if I'd like this, as the countries/films I have in mind are official...) The main drawback would probably be participation, as more it seems are willing to participate if the films have official status. (Any stats to back up this assumption?)

I mean, nothing quantitative, but I know that I would be less likely to participate if the checks were unofficial. Mostly because my ranking is so low currently, I want everything I watch to count for something. My only rewatches or unofficial checks right now are a) nostalgia, b) background noise while I do chores, or c) something my wife wanted to see. And I mete those out carefully. (Except the wife thing.)

[joachimt]

The main drawback would probably be participation, as more it seems are willing to participate if the films have official status. (Any stats to back up this assumption?)

I can get those stats, but takes some time to collect, so I probably won't. Gut feeling says you're right.

[Armoreska]

I say change up first-round rules every time. So far we've already had 3 with 1 proceeding in both seasons.
Make it either 4 with 1 or 2 (or in between, based on how it fared) proceeding (depending on the number of countries), or head to head all the way.

[tommy_leazaq]

I didn't vote on "How should the schedule be?" because the answer to that only makes sense in response to the previous three questions.
Voted for 32 countries, 9-12 months, 1.5 movies per week.

Of course. If we go with 48 countries again, we can't do one-on-one the whole tournament.

Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two..

[Armoreska]

I didn't vote on "How should the schedule be?" because the answer to that only makes sense in response to the previous three questions.
Voted for 32 countries, 9-12 months, 1.5 movies per week.

Of course. If we go with 48 countries again, we can't do one-on-one the whole tournament.

Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two..

India, Cuba, Taiwan, Croatia, Egypt and that Borat country are all for it

[Mario Gaborović]

Of course. If we go with 48 countries again, we can't do one-on-one the whole tournament.

Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two..

India, Cuba, Taiwan, Croatia, Egypt and that Borat country are all for it

Almost each of the Soviet states can do some problems for the bighitters, I guarantee you that. So vote for 48, guys.
Vremena goda for Armenia, Nezhnost for Uzbekistan, Lyubit... for Moldova, Šarunas Bartas for Lithuania...

[Armoreska]

Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two..

India, Cuba, Taiwan, Croatia, Egypt and that Borat country are all for it

Almost each of the Soviet states can do some problems for the bighitters, I guarantee you that. So vote for 48, guys.
Vremena goda for Armenia, Nezhnost for Uzbekistan, Lyubit... for Moldova, Šarunas Bartas for Lithuania...

But what will they use if they happen to win. Some of these countries probably have no "bench" at all nevermind a deep one.

[Mario Gaborović]

India, Cuba, Taiwan, Croatia, Egypt and that Borat country are all for it

Almost each of the Soviet states can do some problems for the bighitters, I guarantee you that. So vote for 48, guys.
Vremena goda for Armenia, Nezhnost for Uzbekistan, Lyubit... for Moldova, Šarunas Bartas for Lithuania...

But what will they use if they happen to win. Some of these countries probably have no "bench" at all nevermind a deep one.

Atom Egoyan's Ararat, anything from Ali Khamrayev, Emil Loteanu's The Fiddlers, Summer of Sangaile... And you could be Belarus' manager, I could assists you with fine films like Alpiyskaya ballada or Prostitutka...

[Armoreska]

Almost each of the Soviet states can do some problems for the bighitters, I guarantee you that. So vote for 48, guys.
Vremena goda for Armenia, Nezhnost for Uzbekistan, Lyubit... for Moldova, Šarunas Bartas for Lithuania...

But what will they use if they happen to win. Some of these countries probably have no "bench" at all nevermind a deep one.

Atom Egoyan's Ararat, anything from Ali Khamrayev, Emil Loteanu's The Fiddlers, Summer of Sangaile... And you could be Belarus' manager, I could assists you with fine films like Alpiyskaya ballada or Prostitutka...

Yeah Alpiyskaya is alright, there are a few rare movies that I enjoyed from Belarus (none went above 6/10 however), and still have a few to go on that project. No idea about subs for these though yet.

[Mario Gaborović]

Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two..

That's way too many. For that matter, we agreed that only quarterfinalists are granted Pot 1 place, which means that Egypt and Chile (which skipped Season 2) are going to avoid big countries in the first round, as a reward for good performance.

[beavis]

A question to ponder on the side: in the second cup movies featured in the first were excluded. Assuming this rule stands, how many cups can be held before smaller movies run out of candidates?

And should managers already have up to three candidates lined up before they suggest their country? It seems last time some people first chose a country and then started watching possible candidates... There is nothing wrong with that perse, but i do hope people actually choose countries they like and know a bit about, as that would increase the chance of getting really good film reccomendations... Which for me is kinda the point of the exercise. I love seeing many really small countries in the game, but on the other hand i would not like watching (too much) below par movies because people just choose a country instead of choosing on the basis of movies.

[Mario Gaborović]

A question to ponder on the side: in the second cup movies featured in the first were excluded. Assuming this rule stands, how many cups can be held before smaller movies run out of candidates?

You mean, smaller countries?? I don't get your question.

[beavis]

Sorry yes, countries with a smaller movie output and/or less widely known directors.

[Mario Gaborović]

Sorry yes, countries with a smaller movie output and/or less widely known directors.

Montenegro has like 50 features available and the same amount of shorts, from about 30 different people. If one of the smallest countries in Europe can compete, and given the fact that many new, much bigger countries are arriving on the scene (just look at the ever-expanding lists of Foreign Oscar nominees), the answer is never.

[beavis]

That is good to hear
Btw
Didn't know that country had so many top quality directors and movies! I bet a lot of them aren't available with subs though, or are they?

[Mario Gaborović]

That is good to hear
Btw
Didn't know that country had so many top quality directors and movies! I bet a lot of them aren't available with subs though, or are they?

I didn't say they have top quality movies. However, there was a small studio called Lovćen Film based in Cetinje which produced arthouse dramas only, not many (10 or 15 films in total) but one of them (Dan četrnaesti, 1960) ended up in Cannes, which is the country's highest achievement internationally. The studio was abolished in 1965 when the Ministry of Culture decided that only economically productive republic studios could continue their work; the most sparsely populated Yugoslav republic which produced only arthouses just couldn't make it, and that was the end.

Their film output was always quite low, but I dunno if there ever was a smaller country that had its entry in the most prestigious festival worldwide.

[Pretentious Hipster]

I'd say the format is fine the way it is. However, for some reason I completely lost interest in both managing a country and participating in this.

[joachimt]

I agree with you beavis. When we get to the sign-up stage, we should encourage people to choose countries with an interesting movie output where they know enough about.

[Mario Gaborović]

I'd say the format is fine the way it is. However, for some reason I completely lost interest in both managing a country and participating in this.

Do you personally think that the overall quality of 80 films isn't satisfying?