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US Politics thread

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Kublai Khan
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Re: US Politics thread

#14601

Post by Kublai Khan » June 14th, 2019, 1:59 pm

Cippenham wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 5:50 pm
Kublai Khan wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 1:48 pm
Cippenham wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 5:13 am
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 56401.html

More details of the interview, he is saying it’s normal.
Do you agree with Trump on that too? Do the ends justify any means?
Probably not but
It’s not as bad as actively buying a bonus dossier to smear your opponent like the Steele dossier , not as bad as asking China for Trumps tax returns as was done apparently,
Really? Not as bad? FusionGPS is an American company, not a foreign government.
And the asking China for Trump's tax returns was obviously a tongue-in-cheek shot mocking Trump's asking of Russian for hacking help. You're really reaching to defend amoral corrupt criminals.

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#14602

Post by Cippenham » June 14th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Like the Democrats and Previous President and Wife ? Not criminal until proved though obviously.

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#14603

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 14th, 2019, 6:59 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/worl ... &smtyp=cur

I don't wanna pull off an Alex Jones and say that this was an inside job, but it definitely sounds like an excuse to start war with Iran.

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#14604

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 14th, 2019, 7:03 pm

But then again look at what happened with The Vietnam war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident
Last edited by XxXApathy420XxX on June 14th, 2019, 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#14605

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 14th, 2019, 7:08 pm

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a ... ies-trump/

Trump has militarized the border patrol system, and it's being considered a concentration camp. Fascism is on the rise. I understand why people might want border control, but this is too much. If in the end you do agree with what he's doing, then you're just as bad as the totalitarianism regimes that you keep talking shit about.

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#14606

Post by Cippenham » June 14th, 2019, 7:53 pm

Fascism once again misused. It only happens if you have a dictatorship. USA is officially a flawed democracy, not a dictatorship so not fascist. Lots of people choose to vote and many voted Trump. Some of his policies are successful and has so far avoided or stopped wars. For example he lost control of the House. That means there is democracy in the USA. If it was fascist, would not be allowed opposition like that.

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#14607

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 14th, 2019, 7:59 pm

Let's say the communism party won in America. Would you say that communism was being misused and that it's still a flawed democracy? Just curious to see if you'll keep it consistent.

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#14608

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 14th, 2019, 8:08 pm

I can give another example right now. How about Maduro? He still has elections, and I believe that he won the recent one fair and square. Yet, he keeps being called a dictator. Is it because he's far left?

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#14609

Post by Rainy Red Carpet » June 14th, 2019, 10:35 pm

Cippenham wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 7:53 pm
Fascism once again misused. It only happens if you have a dictatorship. USA is officially a flawed democracy, not a dictatorship so not fascist. Lots of people choose to vote and many voted Trump. Some of his policies are successful and has so far avoided or stopped wars. For example he lost control of the House. That means there is democracy in the USA. If it was fascist, would not be allowed opposition like that.
'Opposition to what? They may disagree around the edges but they're fundamentally the same.
Money talks and bullshit walks.

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#14610

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 14th, 2019, 10:37 pm

Also Germany even had an election in 1936 and 1938.

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#14611

Post by Dolwphin » June 14th, 2019, 11:18 pm

Draw for the first democratic primary debate(s) have now been released. The big loser was Warren who got separated from the other favorites (Biden, Sanders, Buttigieg, Harris).

The current state of the race (in Iowa):

Biden (24 %)
Sanders (16 %)
Warren (15 %)
Buttigieg (14 %)
Harris (7 %)
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#14612

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 14th, 2019, 11:38 pm

If Biden wins the primary then America must be really dumb. He'll fix nothing. Hell he might even lose the election with Trump.

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#14613

Post by OldAle1 » June 14th, 2019, 11:42 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 11:38 pm
If Biden wins the primary then America must be really dumb. He'll fix nothing. Hell he might even lose the election with Trump.
Unless Trump's approval rating is below 30 - AND the Republican Senate has actually gotten tired of him - I don't see the slightest chance at all that he will lose to anybody. Russia and Saudi Arabia, and maybe his mob contacts will make sure of that.

One the bright side I think Don Jr will make an even worse King in 2024.

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#14614

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 14th, 2019, 11:50 pm

There was a bunch of democrats winning the previous election. Still, I just think that having a conservative going against Trump is not the solution.

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#14615

Post by xianjiro » June 14th, 2019, 11:54 pm

Rainy Red Carpet wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 10:35 pm
Cippenham wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 7:53 pm
Fascism once again misused. It only happens if you have a dictatorship. USA is officially a flawed democracy, not a dictatorship so not fascist. Lots of people choose to vote and many voted Trump. Some of his policies are successful and has so far avoided or stopped wars. For example he lost control of the House. That means there is democracy in the USA. If it was fascist, would not be allowed opposition like that.
'Opposition to what? They may disagree around the edges but they're fundamentally the same.
The United States of America are governed as a "Federal presidential constitutional republic" according to the font of all knowledge. The CIA says, "constitutional federal republic" in the World Factbook. I remember being taught in school that the US isn't a true democracy since the people vote for representatives to make the decisions in the name of the people. The phrase I remember was "representative republic" or "representative democracy" which is quite different from direct democracy. So it's seems like our resident rightwinger is also being a bit disingenuous.

Is the system flawed? Depends on who one talks to. An "officially a flawed democracy"? Wonder who gets to make a call like making it official. Yes, the "Economic Intelligence Unit" added the US to it's "flawed democracy" category largely based on a perception that "popular confidence in the functioning of public institutions has declined". And before one rushes to blame the kakistanis in the Shite House, they state
“This has been a long-term trend and one that preceded the election of Mr Trump. By tapping a deep strain of political disaffection with the functioning of democracy, Mr Trump became a beneficiary of the low esteem in which US voters hold their government.

“A similar pattern of declining popular confidence in political elites and institutions has also been evident in Europe… Britain is one of the leading exemplars of this trend.”
source (it seems the actual report requires registration)

Now as for the rise of fascism, again, from Wikipedia
Fascism is a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy ...
Don't believe anyone said "America is officially a fascist nation." However, it's hard to deny the continued assent of a minority composed of those from the "radical right-wing" who support a more authoritarian executive who uses dictatorial powers to bypass Congress and the courts. Additionally, nationalism (borders are more important than anything) is certainly on the rise and exactly how does one divide nationalism from ultranationalism?

And while calling opponents names and labeling certain media sources as "failing" and "fake news", clearly there is no forcible suppression (yet) nor is there a sense of "strong regimentation of society and of the economy."

So no, the US is not a fascist state per se, but clearly some view the rise of an executive branch whose employees are no longer subject to something like the Hatch Act is a warning sign that fascism may be on the rise. It seems pretty clear to me that people who support fascism in principle have enjoyed much more notoriety since the current regime took power. So Art's entirely correct in saying "Fascism is on the rise." if he's expressing his view of the situation and he is and he goes on to offer examples.

And lest we forget, some famous fascists came to power via democratic means. So allowing citizens to vote isn't a vaccination against fascism.

And finally, ever hear of 'tyranny of the majority'? So, if 50%+1 votes cast say it's okay to shoot black people on sight, then since a vote was held, it's all good. Nice logic there. So no, hiding behind a flawed voting system doesn't hold much power in my eyes.

PS - Give 'im hell, Art!

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#14616

Post by xianjiro » June 15th, 2019, 12:06 am

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 6:59 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/worl ... &smtyp=cur

I don't wanna pull off an Alex Jones and say that this was an inside job, but it definitely sounds like an excuse to start war with Iran.
I've been waiting for someone else to bring this subject up. The thing that sticks in my mind is "Gulf of Persia Incident" and I honestly fear that might be happening. (WMDs!) I can NOT say categorically that Iran wasn't/isn't behind these attacks either directly or through an intermediary.

However, and this is where the issue of honesty and believability is so fucking crucial, it's hard to accept the word of people who 1) have repeatedly shown their disdain for the Iranian state and 2) been so very flagrantly mendacious time and again.

Watch grainy video here.

Hmmm, what's the possibility those are Mossad or Saudi GID operatives? Could such an operation be subcontracted to the likes of Blackwater? Either seem as likely explanations as those guys we hate did it.

At some point one's use of "alternative facts" makes it very difficult for people to believe finger pointing.

Integrity matters. Presidential integrity is much more important than borders, but clearly some people won't get for a while yet.

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#14617

Post by xianjiro » June 15th, 2019, 12:09 am

wow, if you read a page of this thread every day it would now take a year to catch up

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#14618

Post by xianjiro » June 15th, 2019, 12:35 am

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 11:38 pm
If Biden wins the primary then America must be really dumb. He'll fix nothing. Hell he might even lose the election with Trump.
Watcha worried about? We know how this will work out. At just the right moment - probably two seconds before taking the oath - 'Biden' will start ripping off the latex mask, shake her blond hair out, and say, "Going so soon? I wouldn't hear of it. Why my little party's just beginning." (Probably followed by, "Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night!")

Wish I could agree, but clearly some out there are thinking "Biden Is the New Hillary."

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#14619

Post by xianjiro » June 15th, 2019, 12:50 am

Actually, have it on good authority that the Prince of Whales told the Great Shithole, "Ironies did it. I saw them. Lots of ironies."

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#14620

Post by xianjiro » June 15th, 2019, 1:06 am

Image

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#14621

Post by Knaldskalle » June 15th, 2019, 2:55 am

xianjiro wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 12:06 am
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 6:59 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/worl ... &smtyp=cur

I don't wanna pull off an Alex Jones and say that this was an inside job, but it definitely sounds like an excuse to start war with Iran.
I've been waiting for someone else to bring this subject up. The thing that sticks in my mind is "Gulf of Persia Incident" and I honestly fear that might be happening. (WMDs!) I can NOT say categorically that Iran wasn't/isn't behind these attacks either directly or through an intermediary.

However, and this is where the issue of honesty and believability is so fucking crucial, it's hard to accept the word of people who 1) have repeatedly shown their disdain for the Iranian state and 2) been so very flagrantly mendacious time and again.

Watch grainy video here.

Hmmm, what's the possibility those are Mossad or Saudi GID operatives? Could such an operation be subcontracted to the likes of Blackwater? Either seem as likely explanations as those guys we hate did it.

At some point one's use of "alternative facts" makes it very difficult for people to believe finger pointing.

Integrity matters. Presidential integrity is much more important than borders, but clearly some people won't get for a while yet.
The problem, as I see it, is that it's not outside the realm of possibility that it really is Iran behind it. Which means that we're in a situation where we are basically absolutely clueless as to what the truth is. A lying regime vs a lying murderous regime. Who do you believe?
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#14622

Post by Rainy Red Carpet » June 15th, 2019, 4:40 am

Knaldskalle wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 2:55 am
xianjiro wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 12:06 am
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 6:59 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/worl ... &smtyp=cur

I don't wanna pull off an Alex Jones and say that this was an inside job, but it definitely sounds like an excuse to start war with Iran.
I've been waiting for someone else to bring this subject up. The thing that sticks in my mind is "Gulf of Persia Incident" and I honestly fear that might be happening. (WMDs!) I can NOT say categorically that Iran wasn't/isn't behind these attacks either directly or through an intermediary.

However, and this is where the issue of honesty and believability is so fucking crucial, it's hard to accept the word of people who 1) have repeatedly shown their disdain for the Iranian state and 2) been so very flagrantly mendacious time and again.

Watch grainy video here.

Hmmm, what's the possibility those are Mossad or Saudi GID operatives? Could such an operation be subcontracted to the likes of Blackwater? Either seem as likely explanations as those guys we hate did it.

At some point one's use of "alternative facts" makes it very difficult for people to believe finger pointing.

Integrity matters. Presidential integrity is much more important than borders, but clearly some people won't get for a while yet.
The problem, as I see it, is that it's not outside the realm of possibility that it really is Iran behind it. Which means that we're in a situation where we are basically absolutely clueless as to what the truth is. A lying regime vs a lying murderous regime. Who do you believe?
There's no way of knowing. Iran may have done it but on the other hand they have plausible deniability.
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#14623

Post by Cippenham » June 15th, 2019, 5:26 am

British Foreign Office blames Iran

To be fair The Guardian article has a good analysis. Trump wants a deal with Iran really but they are not playing ball.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ysis-trump

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#14624

Post by xianjiro » June 15th, 2019, 6:16 am

Knaldskalle wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 2:55 am
xianjiro wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 12:06 am
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 6:59 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/worl ... &smtyp=cur

I don't wanna pull off an Alex Jones and say that this was an inside job, but it definitely sounds like an excuse to start war with Iran.
I've been waiting for someone else to bring this subject up. The thing that sticks in my mind is "Gulf of Persia Incident" and I honestly fear that might be happening. (WMDs!) I can NOT say categorically that Iran wasn't/isn't behind these attacks either directly or through an intermediary.

However, and this is where the issue of honesty and believability is so fucking crucial, it's hard to accept the word of people who 1) have repeatedly shown their disdain for the Iranian state and 2) been so very flagrantly mendacious time and again.

Watch grainy video here.

Hmmm, what's the possibility those are Mossad or Saudi GID operatives? Could such an operation be subcontracted to the likes of Blackwater? Either seem as likely explanations as those guys we hate did it.

At some point one's use of "alternative facts" makes it very difficult for people to believe finger pointing.

Integrity matters. Presidential integrity is much more important than borders, but clearly some people won't get for a while yet.
The problem, as I see it, is that it's not outside the realm of possibility that it really is Iran behind it. Which means that we're in a situation where we are basically absolutely clueless as to what the truth is. A lying regime vs a lying murderous regime. Who do you believe?
:shrug:

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#14625

Post by brokenface » June 15th, 2019, 6:32 am

Cippenham wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 5:26 am
British Foreign Office blames Iran

To be fair The Guardian article has a good analysis. Trump wants a deal with Iran really but they are not playing ball.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ysis-trump
US had a deal with Iran. Trump broke it

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#14626

Post by xianjiro » June 15th, 2019, 8:29 am

Hmmm, seems BFO was convinced of another American lie in the run up to war in the Middle East

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dossier

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#14627

Post by Kublai Khan » June 15th, 2019, 3:07 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 11:50 pm
There was a bunch of democrats winning the previous election. Still, I just think that having a conservative going against Trump is not the solution.
Interesting article about the discussion within the conservatives:

The Illiberal Right Throws a Tantrum
A faction of the religious right has concluded that if liberal democracy does not guarantee victory, then it must be abandoned.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... an/591697/

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#14628

Post by Cippenham » June 15th, 2019, 6:44 pm

They had a bad deal with Iran, Trump only wants good deals.

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#14629

Post by Cippenham » June 15th, 2019, 6:44 pm

The liberal are illiberal and the conservatives are most free

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#14630

Post by xianjiro » June 15th, 2019, 7:29 pm

Kublai Khan wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 3:07 pm
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 11:50 pm
There was a bunch of democrats winning the previous election. Still, I just think that having a conservative going against Trump is not the solution.
Interesting article about the discussion within the conservatives:

The Illiberal Right Throws a Tantrum
A faction of the religious right has concluded that if liberal democracy does not guarantee victory, then it must be abandoned.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... an/591697/
no, no road to fascism laid bare here. None. Whatsoever.

Thanks for the interesting read, oh Great Khan! :thumbsup: (And fuck the right.) I think of that scene in The Ten Commandments when Moses tells Ramses that from his own lips the next plague will come. Though the left won't need to destroy the right, the will eventually rip themselves apart as each of the megalomaniacs vies for an ever larger piece of the shrinking pie.

However, that said, whatever democracy we still have is fragile and can whither like a candle in the breeze - forget the hurricane of BS constantly thrown out by goofy conservatives who think borders are more important than lives, and because the majority is the majority their will is right and just. They'd stick their spears into their beloved Savior if they thought it would help them destroy justice and equality for all.

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#14631

Post by Rainy Red Carpet » June 15th, 2019, 10:41 pm

Currently reading The Three Dimensions of Freedom by Billy Bragg.

' In 1987, a member of Ayn Rand's inner-circle was given the second most powerful job in the US. Alan Greenspan had read Atlas Shrugged while it was being written in the 1950s. Thirty years after its publication, Ronald Reagan made him Chair of the Federal Reserve, a post he held until 2006.
Shortly after he left office, Greenspan was asked by a Swiss journalist which candidate he would be supporting in the 2008 presidential elections. His response was revealing. It didn't much matter how he voted, Greenspan replied, 'because we are fortunate that, thanks to globalization, policy decisions in the US have largely been replaced by global market forces. National security aside, it hardly makes any difference who will be the next president. The world is governed by market forces.'
Money talks and bullshit walks.

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#14632

Post by Cippenham » June 16th, 2019, 3:44 am

In 2008 that was true, that is why these people are so upset with Trump, they are so upset with the new nationalist right wing groups, upset and determined to stop Brexit, determined to stop the EU breaking up, desperate for a new globalist warmonger like Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.

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#14633

Post by Rainy Red Carpet » June 16th, 2019, 7:36 am

How do you think Trump has stopped America from being governed by market forces?
Money talks and bullshit walks.

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#14634

Post by Cippenham » June 16th, 2019, 9:37 am

Tarrifs..of course substantially he hasn’t! Market forces rule and help people get cheap quality goods but in some cases it’s better as he got better trade deals with some countries, he has reduced regulations. Banned the Chinese mobile phone company, affected trade with China . This article sets out Trump’s likely campaign features

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-run/art ... 0-campaign

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#14635

Post by Cippenham » June 16th, 2019, 10:02 am

His slogan could be China wants Sleepy Joe badly!

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#14636

Post by Cippenham » June 16th, 2019, 10:03 am

In the Midwest if Joe goes for free trade with China ,it will go down badly

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#14637

Post by Kublai Khan » June 16th, 2019, 4:25 pm

Cippenham wrote:
June 16th, 2019, 3:44 am
In 2008 that was true, that is why these people are so upset with Trump, they are so upset with the new nationalist right wing groups, upset and determined to stop Brexit, determined to stop the EU breaking up, desperate for a new globalist warmonger like Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.
I'm still confused about how you think nationalists aren't warmongers.

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#14638

Post by Cippenham » June 16th, 2019, 4:29 pm

Because modern nationalist populists, they only care about to defend themselves, not get involved in far away wars in countries in which they know nothing.

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#14639

Post by Cippenham » June 16th, 2019, 4:38 pm

The communists won’t be allowed to win in America , that is why democrats have people like the Clintons , Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi instead, to keep out anything dangerous or radical.

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#14640

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » June 18th, 2019, 8:56 pm

https://globalnews.ca/news/5352588/cruise-ships-cuba/

See? Communism and socialism doesn't work. This is totally not because we are suffocating them with the ways the country makes money.

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