Sight & Sound 2022 Poll - Predictions

[RenaultR]

I'm okay with Heat being on the list, but the absence of Naruse is certainly egregious.

[OldAle1]

I think Harlan County U.S.A. is pretty great - top 250 all time? Maybe not for me but even a pretty canon-centric guy is not going to overlap with everything. It is a very "American" film in that it deals with the labor movement as it exists specifically in this country - how much impact it would have on non-Americans, I don't know. But I guess labor struggles are something most if not all countries have in common. A fairly mainstream piece of work but certainly not artless as some documentaries can be.

10 unseen for me if I counted right. Like a couple of others have mentioned, De cierta manera was unknown to me, though it was already on an official list - just one I haven't looked into that deeply. Everything else is familiar enough and many have been priorities for a while.

[RenaultR]

As for Haneke and Kieslowski, I suspect their "state of the European soul at the turn of the 21st century" treatises may have simply had their cultural moment. I feel like those films speak more to a society in which "the end of history" is taken for granted as a fact of existence, and as we got deeper and deeper into the 2010s that perspective may have started to feel a but hokey. Among "European arthouse filmmakers" who emerged at the tail end of the 20th century, I feel like Claire Denis and Almodovar have proved to be more enduring.

[OldAle1]

I'm okay with Heat being on the list, but the absence of Naruse is certainly egregious.

Ditto. I guess voters just haven't rallied around any one or two specific Naruse films yet. The general lack of quality editions for much of his work probably hurts though as has been discussed that doesn't always make for directors making it to the list (i.e. Brocka, Ruiz).

[beavis]

I think Harlan County U.S.A. is pretty great - top 250 all time? Maybe not for me but even a pretty canon-centric guy is not going to overlap with everything. It is a very "American" film in that it deals with the labor movement as it exists specifically in this country - how much impact it would have on non-Americans, I don't know. But I guess labor struggles are something most if not all countries have in common. A fairly mainstream piece of work but certainly not artless as some documentaries can be.

Not appealing at all, but indeed, probably not awful

[kongs_speech]

Just realized something ...

264 spots. No Salo. How come, Chief Willoughby?

The list is invalid now.

[tobias]

No Masaki Kobayashi, Mikio Naruse but Matrix, Heat and Mad Max in top 250

I legit do prefer Mad Max over the 2 Kobayashi films I've seen. Fury Road is legitimately an amazing film.

Not big on Heat though (I'd take Kobayashi then), Matrix I don't know, I think it's amicable in many ways. Don't necesarilly love it deeply but can say many good things about it.

Naruse is kinda sad but I also need to see more Naruse.

[tobias]

I think Harlan County U.S.A. is pretty great - top 250 all time? Maybe not for me but even a pretty canon-centric guy is not going to overlap with everything. It is a very "American" film in that it deals with the labor movement as it exists specifically in this country - how much impact it would have on non-Americans, I don't know. But I guess labor struggles are something most if not all countries have in common. A fairly mainstream piece of work but certainly not artless as some documentaries can be.

10 unseen for me if I counted right. Like a couple of others have mentioned, De cierta manera was unknown to me, though it was already on an official list - just one I haven't looked into that deeply. Everything else is familiar enough and many have been priorities for a while.

I think these things are actually relatively similar to Western Europe. The workers movement in the USA was from what I understand less succesful (maybe also smaller). Would you say it is similar to Marker's Grin Without a Cat in some ways?

[cinewest]

As for Haneke and Kieslowski, I suspect their "state of the European soul at the turn of the 21st century" treatises may have simply had their cultural moment. I feel like those films speak more to a society in which "the end of history" is taken for granted as a fact of existence, and as we got deeper and deeper into the 2010s that perspective may have started to feel a but hokey. Among "European arthouse filmmakers" who emerged at the tail end of the 20th century, I feel like Claire Denis and Almodovar have proved to be more enduring.

I think your assessment of Kieslowski and Haneke is too reductive, though perhaps, as you say, there has been a generational shift in the cultural context and mood. Still, in saying that, I'm not sure I would call Denis or Almodovar "popular," even in art house circles at present. I would say that both had more cache (and importance) 10-20 years ago in the 2000's, along with Haneke. In fact Denis' films in the last decade have not done so well with critics or audiences, though I think she makes out very well on the 2022 Sight and Sound list due to the "shift in politics." Denis may actually be the most established contemporary female filmmaker, and that served her well in this recent poll.

[St. Gloede]

India Song on the top 100 in 2032? I would not be shocked.

It's being released on Bluray by Criterion on Feb 28. So yeah it will be on the top 100 in 2032. Remember Seyrig is going to get more interest too now that people are watching Jeanne Dielman.

The crazy thing is Criterion found an alternative english language soundtrack for India Song, which will be available on the disc, and it's not some random hack job, it was done under directions from Duras herself.

I don't think I'd want to listen to that, but I might surprise myself.

Did you ever see the twin film Her Venetian Name in Deserted Calcutta (1976) with the same audio track by the way? (For those who don't know, all audio was recorded first and the shots were done to accompany it. The twin film does the same, but in empty ruins rather than splendour. Nowhere near as great a film, nor neccesarily even a great film, but a great companion piece and it feels even more haunted).

[St. Gloede]

Really pleasant surprises at the bottom! Born in Flames and Med Hondo totally caught me off guard and those are the ones I'm most excited for, but also happy for Lynne Ramsay (probably not a huge surprise after the top 100 reveal), Jarman, King Hu...
The lack of Glauber Rocha is unfortunate indeed, hopefully not too far off on the full list? Hoping for more Japanase representation outside of the 'big 3' also.
I still have about 20 left to watch and I haven't seen most of the docs, but it looks like an interesting selection and I look forward to the majority of them.

Words can hardly describe how happy I am to see Med Hondo suddenly become one of the most acclaimed directors overnight. 2 films out of the top 250.

We discussed a lack of hidden gems / radical changes to the canon earlier. West Indies, undoubtedly one of the great films of all-time IMO, only has 507 ratings on Letterboxd, and ... wait for it ... 75 votes on IMDb ...

This is just beyond incredible. In 10 years this film could be in the top 100. "No one" has seen it, now it has all-time status. Utterly lost for words here.

Several of the other films on this list too are genuinly obscure. This 250 will do a great deal to change cinema history/focus.

[prodigalgodson]

Yeah, aside from missing Naruse the full list is pretty lit.

[matthewscott8]

These are the instances in which I've heard of neither the film nor the director: Samovo Sineyvo Morya,
West Indies: The Fugitive Slaves of Liberty

Have you heard of the first film under its english translated title "By the bluest of seas", it's had a couple of dvd releases, both very low quality unfortunately. Boris Barnet seems like a fairly famous director, maybe I'm biased, but he's had cinema screenings in my home town, and he has good representation on UK dvds. Hoping that some distributor might notice it now and give it a 4k scan.

West Indies was the only listing that took me completely by surprise. This movie just wasn't distributed properly, and disappeared for decades. I hadn't heard of it. Appears to have been plucked from the cultural amnesia and presented at Cinema Ritrovato in 2017. I would love to go there at some point.

It has only 75 votes on IMDb, I see Chris has reviewed it, so may be able to fill us in. There have been some very small scale screenings at events in the last couple of years, so it looks like a lot of the voters were at those. Without knowing or understanding anything about the quality of the film, it is a bit of a headscratcher that a film that is so incredibly obscure made it through to the list. Very intriguing though.

[tobias]

Really pleasant surprises at the bottom! Born in Flames and Med Hondo totally caught me off guard and those are the ones I'm most excited for, but also happy for Lynne Ramsay (probably not a huge surprise after the top 100 reveal), Jarman, King Hu...
The lack of Glauber Rocha is unfortunate indeed, hopefully not too far off on the full list? Hoping for more Japanase representation outside of the 'big 3' also.
I still have about 20 left to watch and I haven't seen most of the docs, but it looks like an interesting selection and I look forward to the majority of them.

Words can hardly describe how happy I am to see Med Hondo suddenly become one of the most acclaimed directors overnight. 2 films out of the top 250.

We discussed a lack of hidden gems / radical changes to the canon earlier. West Indies, undoubtedly one of the great films of all-time IMO, only has 507 ratings on Letterboxd, and ... wait for it ... 75 votes on IMDb ...

This is just beyond incredible. In 10 years this film could be in the top 100. "No one" has seen it, now it has all-time status. Utterly lost for words here.

Several of the other films on this list too are genuinly obscure. This 250 will do a great deal to change cinema history/focus.

Would you say Spring in a Small Town, Tale of Tales, Listen to Britain, Chelsea Girls, A Canterbury Tale, Floating Clouds or The Travelling Players ever quite had all time status? I thought the later 2 kinda had but they are noticeably quite absent now.

It's undoubtedly a boost to the films reputation and hopefully gives an impulse for a wider release but seeing it touring some major festivals this was probably on the horizon anyway. But I mean consider that Mei Fu ranked higher last time and it absent today so I think these conclusions sound a bit premature.

It is surprising that it came on under these conditions but De cierta manera, The Quince Tree Sun and The Intruder actually surprise me a bit more, though they do rank lower.

I saw The Quince Tree Sun in the cinematheque last week coincidentally and the quality of their DCP was worse than the West Indies version I could find on YouTube. It seems the film legit only exists in a bad print right now. Part of my reason for watching it at the cinematheque was hoping they had a good print but oh well.

Though this isn't to disagree with you. After what we saw with Sembene's Black Girl (Semebene has 2 films with high quality release options, Mandabi and Black Girl), the obvious thing would if anything have been to see only Soleil O but West Indies even outranks Soleil O and neither of them got any votes in 2012. It's surprising that Hondo would do better than Sissako or Sembene's other films. I thought Xala has good odds at showing up but it didn't. Sissako has made the most famous Mauritania films besides Hondo (Letterboxd says Soleil O, Waiting for Happiness, West Indies, Life on Earth in that order) and Waiting for Happiness was relatively close to top 250 last time but is still super obscure today (a bit more widely seen than West Indies but barely). So I don't think there are guarantees but it will definitely help Hondo in some circles (like say ICM) and make him somewhat more known.

Edit: Another one I was holding out for was Bless their little hearts after Killer of Sheep did very well. I would have thought Woodberry more likely than Hondo but also didn't make it.

Edit2: Soleil O was actually on my Mubi watchlist and is streaming right now (in DK, your mileage may vary). Should probably give it a watch when I got more time.

[matthewscott8]

India Song on the top 100 in 2032? I would not be shocked.

It's being released on Bluray by Criterion on Feb 28. So yeah it will be on the top 100 in 2032. Remember Seyrig is going to get more interest too now that people are watching Jeanne Dielman.

The crazy thing is Criterion found an alternative english language soundtrack for India Song, which will be available on the disc, and it's not some random hack job, it was done under directions from Duras herself.

I don't think I'd want to listen to that, but I might surprise myself.

Did you ever see the twin film Her Venetian Name in Deserted Calcutta (1976) with the same audio track by the way? (For those who don't know, all audio was recorded first and the shots were done to accompany it. The twin film does the same, but in empty ruins rather than splendour. Nowhere near as great a film, nor neccesarily even a great film, but a great companion piece and it feels even more haunted).

Haven't seen it no. I read the play a while back. I find it quite dark so i would have to be in the right mood. Tbh it's one of those works where I'm surprised people liked it so much, sadness, madness, nothing much happens, absolute lack of humour, unrelenting, and why does no-one get excited by her other works? Maybe the critics and directors haven't seen Détruire dit-elle, or maybe Delphine Seyrig's naked body is the key feature of interest. Maybe the BFI should hold screenings of Kumel's Daughters of Darkness next. I adore Duras, if I hacked the BFI's website it would be to rewrite the top 10 with just her films.

[Fergenaprido]

I went to update my placeholder list from 100 to 250, but it seems someone created another list with the same title, so I see everything double in my list. Might be able to edit in beta; will try tomorrow if a 250 doesn't appear by then.

[tobias]

Also as a sidenote: over the past years Le Rayon Vert seems to slowly have established itself as Rohmer's most acclaimed film over My Night at Maud's. This is probably not a huge sweeping shift but still interesting because I remember My Night at Maud's and even Claire's Knee being more in focus back when I first encountered Rohmer (which was via an ARTE retrospective where they showed a Claire/Maude doublefeature). I think this was 2015 and 2014 I guess was the Potemkine release?

It's interesting when I look back at 2013 (shortly after the last S&S poll) when I got into film. Some of the appraisal has changed quite radically. Just if we look at the FNW (a big love of teenage-me) Varda has as many films on this list as Truffaut, Chabrol, Rohmer and Rivette combined (and Rivette of all people does the heavy lifting for the Cahiers guys here). In 2013 she was seen as one of the more obscure among the big directors (less well known films than perhaps even Chabrol). This has of course changed quite radically (though it's not representative of my personal FNW ranking). Rohmer was also quite obscure back then but has seemingly gained a lot of traction. I've even met filmmakers who casually say that Rohmer is one of their favourite directors and his films have inspired theirs. Rivette is also doing better. Chabrol and Truffaut probably not really (probably actually depreciated in status). Godard just died. Probably rekindled some talk, still going strong, not even in the same discussion as Truffaut anymore it seems. Also it seems relatively the Left Bank holds up better than the Cahiers at least in the S&S poll. Demy also does very well. Marker remains very strong, Resnais falters a bit. This is a bit odd to me. Back then I felt like Marker and Resnais were the two major figures on the left bank but ofc Varda has just eclipsed everyone in status today. But maybe I always thought the Cahiers directors had a bigger status than was actually the case. Still I saw Chabrol on TV and I saw posters of his films in real life and all, kinda strange to end up concluding he isn't really seen as a very major figure anymore (I know he still has many fans here though). Not like he ever did well on S&S but even his Letterboxd viewcount isn't all that phenomenal.

But a lot of stuff has of course also remained the same and it's not like the S&S poll changed all of that. The Varda thing had been creeping up the past 5 years or so, no big surprise and Truffaut/Chabrol haven't been that much discussed anymore. I already knew that this was happening but I guess S&S just reaffirms it in a way. Kinda crazy to think that Med Hondo has more titles than Truffaut but ofc here S&S isn't so represenatitive of cinephilia at large. Rivette is also still more beloved than actually seen but even then Out 1 has over 5k on Letterboxd man, you gotta be shitting me. I feel like I remember when it had 300 on IMDB.It's also weird to have this be one of his most widely seen films apparently. I don't feel like this was the case in 2013. Don't remember when the DVD and blu ray release was. I have the blu ray at home.

Nice to see in a way that some stuff that wasn't widely seen a decade ago has become more widely seen. This is probably more emblematic of Letterboxd, MUBI, KG and other internet shits and giggles than S&S but still. A lot of the stuff that got attention is also absend on S&S. Kobayashi missing is one of the most prominent complaints I read. I don't really agree but shows that it's not necesarilly reflective of all that gets attention today.

Angelopoulos is odd because he's the kind of guy I would suspect on S&S and I even felt like he got an uptick in attention over recent years but the result is just him being wiped off the top 264 entirely. In general Europe outside France/UK not so strong. Oliveira and Ruiz are sad but not surprising. There wasn't that much hype surrounding them in recent years and there are few shiny releases of their films in the states. If that makes all the difference maybe we should write an email to Criterion. I don't how they achieved this kind of marketing. Not sure what necesarilly makes a criterion release better than Arrow, Lorber, Potemkine, Milestone or anything but Criterion just makes more waves somehow.

I also feel like if Angelopoulos was a woman (especially a black American woman) she'd probably be on. Feels kinda meh to be led in that direction but it's one of the more baffling exclusions, especially with fascim on the rise in Europe. I feel like his films are as relevant as when they were released. Many of them should if anything resonate more after all the Eurocrisis we've had but I guess the subset of voters that cares about that isn't very widely represented on this poll (also a metter of diversity). Still I feel like if we speak about broader cinephilia it is somewhat present.

[cinewest]

I have at least one Angelopoulos in my top 100 (Eternity and a Day), and a couple of others not too far away. Same with Truffaut, who has a very different sensibility, but is a filmmaker who really spoke to me when I was younger. I guess he's another one who has been lost to his time- a filmmaker who resonated so much with the late 50's and 60's, and early 70's, but who hasn't transcended his era the way some lesser celebrated ones have for whatever reasons.

[mightysparks]

Surprised I’d seen so many on the top 250 - 252/264 according to Letterboxd. I think there was one I’d never heard of.

[gunnar]

I've seen 202/264, though I've got 33 others on my list to watch next month.

[matthewscott8]

I am at 152/264. There are a fair few more where I fell asleep watching them, or watched them so long ago I didn't rate them. I have some planned upcoming watches. I will try and only see in nice editions, which is basically why I haven't seen stuff like Le Maman et la putain and The Hour of the Furnaces before. Until there is more availability I'm not going to commit to seeing the top 250, but I am trying to clean up on the top 100, a much smaller job with much better availability, particularly via BFI Player.

[matthewscott8]

Really pleasant surprises at the bottom! Born in Flames and Med Hondo totally caught me off guard and those are the ones I'm most excited for, but also happy for Lynne Ramsay (probably not a huge surprise after the top 100 reveal), Jarman, King Hu...
The lack of Glauber Rocha is unfortunate indeed, hopefully not too far off on the full list? Hoping for more Japanase representation outside of the 'big 3' also.
I still have about 20 left to watch and I haven't seen most of the docs, but it looks like an interesting selection and I look forward to the majority of them.

Words can hardly describe how happy I am to see Med Hondo suddenly become one of the most acclaimed directors overnight. 2 films out of the top 250.

We discussed a lack of hidden gems / radical changes to the canon earlier. West Indies, undoubtedly one of the great films of all-time IMO, only has 507 ratings on Letterboxd, and ... wait for it ... 75 votes on IMDb ...

This is just beyond incredible. In 10 years this film could be in the top 100. "No one" has seen it, now it has all-time status. Utterly lost for words here.

Several of the other films on this list too are genuinely obscure. This 250 will do a great deal to change cinema history/focus.

Is there a story behind how you came to see this film btw? I have only been able to find evidence of three screenings since 1979. One was at the Barbican in September 2021. I am kicking myself for not noticing that. I try and keep an eye on London rep schedules but stuff always slips through the net. Maybe someone at Il Cinema Ritrovato took a cheeky scan?

[Fergenaprido]

West Indies had a DVD release in 2019, which may have been a results of Hondo's death that year, and then a restoration that finished in 2021.

https://harvardfilmarchive.org/collecti ... collection

PRESERVATION
In 2019 the Harvard Film Archive received grant funding from the McMillan Stewart Foundation to begin work on the digital restoration of West Indies and Sarraounia. This project resulted in the creation of new English and French subtitled DCPs and digital files in the fall of 2021 with lab work done in Paris by Blackhawk Films and Lumières Numériques, overseen by the HFA and Ciné-Archives.

[St. Gloede]

Really pleasant surprises at the bottom! Born in Flames and Med Hondo totally caught me off guard and those are the ones I'm most excited for, but also happy for Lynne Ramsay (probably not a huge surprise after the top 100 reveal), Jarman, King Hu...
The lack of Glauber Rocha is unfortunate indeed, hopefully not too far off on the full list? Hoping for more Japanase representation outside of the 'big 3' also.
I still have about 20 left to watch and I haven't seen most of the docs, but it looks like an interesting selection and I look forward to the majority of them.

Words can hardly describe how happy I am to see Med Hondo suddenly become one of the most acclaimed directors overnight. 2 films out of the top 250.

We discussed a lack of hidden gems / radical changes to the canon earlier. West Indies, undoubtedly one of the great films of all-time IMO, only has 507 ratings on Letterboxd, and ... wait for it ... 75 votes on IMDb ...

This is just beyond incredible. In 10 years this film could be in the top 100. "No one" has seen it, now it has all-time status. Utterly lost for words here.

Several of the other films on this list too are genuinely obscure. This 250 will do a great deal to change cinema history/focus.

Is there a story behind how you came to see this film btw? I have only been able to find evidence of three screenings since 1979. One was at the Barbican in September 2021. I am kicking myself for not noticing that. I try and keep an eye on London rep schedules but stuff always slips through the net. Maybe someone at Il Cinema Ritrovato took a cheeky scan?

The restored version of West Indies is excellent btw, so no risk there.

I don't have any kind of exciting or odd backstory here. I really liked Soleil O (though I did not love it at the time) and when I was diving into African cinema a couple of years ago I made sure to check out Sarraounia, which was and might still be the biggest Sub-Saharan African production in history. It is an excellent film as well, and it made me interested in diving deeper into Hondo, and West Indies was the only other readily available film in good quality - that's it, I think ... with the only exception that it blew me away. The concept it one of the most intriguing, clever and daring put on film - staging the history of an unnamed island country in the West Indies within a slave ship. It is comparable to Dogville in some ways as your imagination is partially in play in terms of how we read the set - but with the set here actually adding deep historical and emotional context rather than "just" being a Brecthian exercise. And then you have how dynamic, wild and funny it is. Unlike pretty much anything out, fiercely unique and energetic and just an unforgettable experience.

I've tried pushing it with DtC, with just a few takers, and bombing my review, screenshots and even gifs in threads, but to little avail.

[St. Gloede]

OldAle and jdidaco saw and loved it a few months before me, and looking back it was jdidaco who made me prioritise it by promoting it with these two gifs:

[St. Gloede]

Here's an article from Mubi about the resurgence of his work: https://mubi.com/notebook/posts/med-hon ... -modernist

[RenaultR]

On a side note, two films I'm surprised to see left out of the directors' top 100 are The Leopard and Aguirre, The Wrath of God.

[St. Gloede]

Z is somehow not on the top 250. That surprised me.

[RenaultR]

Z is somehow not on the top 250. That surprised me.

I'm not sure about that. It's never been higher than in the 700s on TSPDT.

[erde]

I have 8 unseen films in the critics' top 250 this time. I'm really excited to search and watch them while waiting for all the ballots to drop in the beginning of March!

Which ones?

I missed two, there seems be ten unseen S&S top 250 films for me in total:
- Sambizanga (1972)
- The Watermelon Woman (1996)
- West Indies (1979)
- Symbiopsychotaxiplasm: Take One (1968)
- Zama (2017)
- De cierta manera (1977)
- Petite maman (2021)
- Je tu il elle (1974)
- Soleil Ô (1967)
- Born in Flames (1983)

They are all pretty much unknown to me, except Zama (2017) which I have been meaning to watch for a long time now.

[gunnar]

They are all pretty much unknown to me, except Zama (2017) which I have been meaning to watch for a long time now.

Zama looks interesting. I just picked up a copy to watch for the March country challenge.

[Lakigigar]

65 seen in top 264 critics, which seems to be 15 more than the top 264 critics one 10 years ago. Over time, this will improve but it's not a list i'll work on actively (though indirectly i will).

[brokenface]

From a little ctrl-f of the countries getting on, I'd say while there's definitely big inroads in representation when it comes to identity of directors, some countries still seem to be pretty under-represented: China/HK don't do too well (other than Wong Kar-wai), Poland + Czech + Hungary = Daisies + some Bela Tarr, Greece, Turkey, Romania - nothing, Korea = Parasite, South America is about 50% Lucrecia Martel.

Would like to see full list of ins/outs vs the 2012 top 250. Some directors seem to have been annihilated (one that jumps out is Kieslowski).

6 to see for me:

Sambizanga
West Indies
Symbiopsychotaxiplasm: Take One
De cierta manera
Je tu il elle
O soleil

Last one was on my mubi watchlist already so will be up soonish.

[tobias]

From a little ctrl-f of the countries getting on, I'd say while there's definitely big inroads in representation when it comes to identity of directors, some countries still seem to be pretty under-represented: China/HK don't do too well (other than Wong Kar-wai), Poland + Czech + Hungary = Daisies + some Bela Tarr, Greece, Turkey, Romania - nothing, Korea = Parasite, South America is about 50% Lucrecia Martel.

Would like to see full list of ins/outs vs the 2012 top 250. Some directors seem to have been annihilated (one that jumps out is Kieslowski).

6 to see for me:

Sambizanga
West Indies
Symbiopsychotaxiplasm: Take One
De cierta manera
Je tu il elle
O soleil

Last one was on my mubi watchlist already so will be up soonish.

Poland is also nothing and China (PRC) is one. Overall the list is actually becoming more Franco-American dominated over time while most other countries (outsides of e.g. Cuba or Senegal) are undersampled. In 1992 there were 5 Indian films in the top 65 (granted all Ray). Today it's 4 in the top 264. It feels like compared to 1992 and 2002 which felt like opening up to an international cinema we are now successively closing in on a very Western (i.e. Anglo-French) reading of everything. Even many of the titles from other places bear that on their sleeve. Hondo doing so well is perfectly in keeping with a very french reading (Soleil O is also set in Paris, so is Back Girl for that matter).

Other major cinematic traditions are largely sidelined if they don't fit under that banner. Japan got 12 titles, Germany 9, Mexico close to nothing, Brazil 1 or 2, Egypt none, India and China I already mentioned.

[RenaultR]

I just have one question. If we focus too heavily on films like Touki Bouki, Memories of Underdevelopment, or even anything by say Ritwik Ghatak strictly in terms of their status as works of Third Cinema giving a voice to the marginalized, doesn't it do a disservice to them to reduce them to that kind of analysis as opposed to also examining as 'great works of cinema' in more of a meta sense. That's maybe the one way in which there's a kernel of truth to the common criticism that "focusing so much on diversity of representation replaces an aesthetic initiative with a sociological one", even if those arguments often go in lamentably reactionary directions. The sociological initiative of getting Cuban or Angolan cinema works recognized should be able to peacefully exist alongside the more epistemological(?) initiative of grappling with them as 'great works of art'. And again, the point is simply that focusing on the former at the expense of the latter can do a disservice to the films themselves. Do you see what I'm driving at? I don't think those more meta-oriented discussions about Great Art are necessarily sinful provided the proper works are getting their due.

P.S. I was going to use the word "Hegelian" in quotes instead of epistemological but that probably would have made my point come off as overly Eurocentric.

[tobias]

I just have one question. If we focus too heavily on films like Touki Bouki, Memories of Underdevelopment, or even anything by say Ritwik Ghatak strictly in terms of their status as works of Third Cinema giving a voice to the marginalized, doesn't it do a disservice to them to reduce them to that kind of analysis as opposed to also examining as 'great works of cinema' in more of a meta sense. That's maybe the one way in which there's a kernel of truth to the common criticism that "focusing so much on diversity of representation replaces an aesthetic initiative with a sociological one", even if those arguments often go in lamentably reactionary directions. The sociological initiative of getting Cuban or Angolan cinema works recognized should be able to peacefully exist alongside the more epistemological(?) initiative of grappling with them as 'great works of art'. And again, the point is simply that focusing on the former at the expense of the latter can do a disservice to the films themselves. Do you see what I'm driving at? I don't think those more meta-oriented discussions about Great Art are necessarily sinful provided the proper works are getting their due.

P.S. I was going to use the word "Hegelian" in quotes instead of epistemological but that probably would have made my point come off as overly Eurocentric.

I didn't even think of Ghatak as in Third Cinema, just as a uniquely gifted director, same with Mambety who is a very excentric voice in his own right - though with Memories of Underdevelopment this is harder to escape because it's sort of in the title already (great film ofc).

I think with some of the films and filmmakers discussed here they really have an incredibly sharp voice and fit the auteurist reading better than many major Hollywood directors (Sembene's oeuvre is much more one body of work than Hitchcock).

The reason I still pointed out the disproportionality in representation of films around the world is because the the list feels much more myopic in its sentiments than it should be. Killer of Sheep and Yellow Earth are both about poverty but they are different films, not because they are different tokens of diversity but because the entire aesthetic language, the concrete locality, the culture they are steeped in, etc. is different. I recently saw HHH's Flowers of Shanghai and it reminded me of Mizoguchi's Street of Shame as they both deal with life in a brothel - but the approach is nonetheless very different and you can see that in a way the films speak about two different things, not just as filmic expressions but they are also set in different worlds (much like the world of Star Wars differs from the world of Chaplin).

And to me it feels like the voters picked a lot of the same brand of films. If we speak with Hegel we could say that all the anti-colonial films are really about Europe navelgazing again and there are none about Africa(I mean the critics who vote on the poll, not the directors of these films who are obviously behemoths of cinema) . This is why I thought seeing for instance Xala would have been refreshing. It's a film where Europe doesn't matter, it's simply about Senegalese politics but it's precisely the one that didn't make it (despite good odds if the 2012 poll is anything to go by).

What I like about directors like Ghatak, Burnett, Sembene and more is really that they do not condition us to a cultural reading. It's not so much symbolic but very concrete materialistic investigations (their films are also quite simple). Meanwhile I feel like for some of the critics it's kind of a culture war - and this is nothing that can be a founding principle of aesthetics. The person behind the camera suddenly becomes more important than whats in front of it - and I do agree that's a damn shame. We can also see it in the discussion of JD as more stock seems to have been put into it being directed by a woman than what kind of film it is - as if the main thing that distinguished it from Vertigo or CK was what Akerman had between her legs (again in a Hegelian fashion you could ask if anti-sexism becomes sexism).

Note that this is not meant to say that this reflects all or even the majority of voters. It's just a sentiment that seems buried somewhere in the poll and I think that for many of the wonderful films on there it's actually a shame to be presented in that light. I am personally still happy that they get their share of the limelight but not amazed about the circumstances and discussion around it. As I already said to me it feels to some extend emblematic of a heated academic US debate that talks besides the important things.

[RenaultR]

Well if the 2012 list was vulnerable to accusations of stodginess, I'd say the 2022 critics' list is vulnerable to accusations of trendiness if nothing else. My initial reaction back in December had nothing to do with any sort of "wokeness", but I did have a sense of "gee, this definitely feels like a list curated by a bunch of young-ish urban liberal arts graduates who've spent a lot of time the last couple years streaming things on Mubi". That was pretty much my initial gut reaction.

P.S. Memories of Underdevelopment is a top 25 of all time film for me probably. Touki Bouki would certainly be in there somewhere in a personal top 150-200. I subscribed to the Criterion Channel during the first lockdown, and 'Memories' was one of the first films I watched on there, and it was an absolute revelation. I had a similar experience "discovering" Pixote on there. Touki Bouki I'd already seen back in the early 2010s.

Also, why has Killer of Sheep never been released on blu-ray. I've been hearing the film name dropped in various corners for ten years. Flowers of Shanghai is one I need to revisit. I watched it in a Chinese history course as an undergrad of all places but don't remember much of it.

There's a lot of variety in HHH's filmography. He's made a wuxia film, a Neo-Ozu film, a Gallic-fetish film (every East Asian filmmaker of that generation or younger seems to do one of these: Tsai had that film he shot in The Louvre, Hamaguchi's next film will be a "Japanese film" set in Paris, Hong Sang-soo shot a film in Paris too, Kiyoshi Kurosawa made a French film where Tahar Rahim basically loses his shit), a film that does WKW's schtick better than WKW himself does it (Millennium Mambo), a couple of more stereotypically "slow" films in the "slow cinema" vein, and so on.

On a side note, I do find it interesting that while African-American-helmed films like Killer of Sheep or Daughters of the Dust manage the get the Global South or Third Cinema treatment to some degree, minority-directed films from France are still essentially perceived as "European cinema" (i.e. Saint Omer or Kechiche's The Secret of the Grain). By that I mean, the African-American films still manage to be brought up in discussions regarding neglected corners of the world the way those African or Cuban films are whereas I've never seen someone like Kechiche or French directors of sub-Saharan African descent mentioned in that context.

[cinewest]

A lot of very good points made by both of you (RenaultR and Tobias), and perhaps one of the more interesting things about the list is to suss out its cultural context, influences, trends, and politics.

Yes, even with all of the "revisions" the list still feels very America centric (and still very caught up with Hollywood genres). Given the push towards more diversity (and the mention of Kechiche's great Secret of the Grain), why for example is there nothing by Sissako, who has been making films since the early 1990's, and has made a several very memorable ones (Heremakono, Timbuktu...) about contemporary Africa(ns) (Also happy to hear that there is someone who likes Memories of Underdevelopment even more than I do).

[RenaultR]

Poland is also nothing

For some reason, I have a hard time viewing Poland as a neglected filmmaking nation between Kieslowski, Wajda, Pawlikowski, and this year's EO. This is despite its absence from the Sight & Sound poll, and the Lodz Film School is one of the most famous film schools in the world. I do find it odd Out 1 and Twin Peaks: The Return can be chosen as single films but Dekalog cannot.

[cinewest]

Films sadly left out of the Sight and Sight top 250 in my book:

I probably have to start with Kieslowski (who was unbelievably left out altogether), since I have 3 of his films in my own top 100 (Trois Couleurs: Blue, Double Life of Veronique, and The Dekalog). As for pre-1980 films, while I would have chosen some different examples, at least the greatest filmmakers have been represented up to that point, even as a few personal favorites (by lesser known filmmakers) like The Yellow Submarine, O' Lucky Man (two great musical satires of the time), and Papilon (a genre fave) were ignored.

It is once again the post 70's choices that I have the most trouble with. Hard to believe that nothing by Angelopoulos made the top 250. Mia aioniotita kai mia mera is in my own top 100, and a couple of others are close. Continuing with the post 70's, I thought Koyaanisqatsi was pretty amazing when I first saw it, and still think it stands out as a "creative documentary."
Some people on board have noted that Latin America is poorly represented, but that is mostly because there is not enough recognition given to films not made by the handful of filmmakers adopted by the arthouse crowd. Who, for example, is familiar with the filmmaker Eliseo Subiela, or a film like Cabeza de Vaca? Even Raul Ruiz, an arthouse favorite who mostly lived in Europe is missing from this list. Beyond the 1960's, there is almost nothing from Asia or Eastern Europe for that matter, and I would argue that films like Pred dozhdot and Xích lô are two of the best from the 90's, and there are plenty more from regions outside of the U.S. and Western Europe that needs to be in the mix.

As for the 2000's to present, all I can say is that I am at least happy to see something by Wong Kai Wai, Michael Haneke, and Lucrecia Martel on the list, but disappointed that the vast majority of my favorite contemporary films have been eclipsed by a bunch of politically correct ones. Haneke, for example, made one masterpiece after another from Code Unknown to Amour, but ends up with only one in the top 250, while he and others (Von Trier, Almodovar, Ceylan, HHH, etc.) from this time period get leapfrogged by more trendy choices.