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Is Hype Overhyped? [TALKING IMAGES]

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St. Gloede
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Is Hype Overhyped? [TALKING IMAGES]

#1

Post by St. Gloede »

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"Every few months someone will mention a film and I don't know what's going on and I feel like an old person!" - One of our hosts utter this about his awareness of hype, but are we all that immune?

P.S. This is our season 3 finale. Happy new year everyone and see you all in 2023.

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How exactly does hype affect you? Can it actually make you dislike films you might otherwise have liked? - And if so - what was a recent victim?

Do you feel that you need to see the latest hot property as soon as possible to feel like you are still in the loop?

Do you feel the need to speak up/be a contrarian if you don't love an overhyped film?

Are you in the zeitgeist and follow the buzz, and if so, are there any cinephile bubbles you are vulnerable too - or are there just certain films that explode out of the ether?

What even is hype? (Difference between buzz and hype)

Is anti-hype a thing? (I.e. films you likely would have seen if there had not been negative buzz)

And finally: Is hype overhyped?

Bonus question: Do we come across as massive pricks?
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#2

Post by Onderhond »

Yes to the bonus question. Will listen to the podcast later.
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#3

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Not really hype, but perhaps a fanbase might ruin something. I'm waiting for the hype to die down for Everything Everywhere All at Once in a few years before seeing it for this reason. The fanbase is getting so toxic that even one of the directors is telling them to calm down, and I feel like that might cloud my judgement ie "it has to be THAT good I guess" or perhaps "the fanbase is dumb cause of this so this movie must be dumb"
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#4

Post by matthewscott8 »

The only director I would get excited about seeing a new release from would be Lars von Trier, just because he seems to be able to deal with big topics with big films, and is just that much more intellectually and creatively powerful than the critics of his films. It seems impossible at this juncture that he could put out an un-noteworthy / incompetent artwork.

I generally see the public / twitter conversation as fairly meaningless. I can't actually imagine a sensible conversation happening on twitter about film, particularly given the character limit constraint that encourages hot takes, and the distorted "social justice" agenda; whilst I'm very keen on social justice e.g. people being nice to each other and fair, and having access to welfare etc, the discussion on twitter rarely seems to be about that exactly (my favourite example of distorted twitter opinions on social justice recently is the virus / diseased opinion "veganism is racist", a true facepalm).

I was really confused about the discussion about being pricks. Is a prick meant to be the opposite of someone who is susceptible to hype? I would try to use a more descriptive word, maybe freethinker something like that. Autistic people are a category of people who are less likely to be affected by hype so I would be careful here, it's almost definitional to autism.

My Marvel opinion is that the vast majority of the movies are crap, the only exception I saw was Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (2018 - Bob Persichetti, Peter Ramsey, Rodney Rothman), which at points is delirious. Some of the implied values are absolutely terrible, my fave is when Thor does a random one-man genocide of Ice Giants and there's no repercussions and no-one seems to have a problem with it.

I was already planning on seeing Jeanne Dielman, and already had the Bluray, but the S&S discussion definitely has moved it up my agenda.

I saw and loved Glass Onion recently, I had a discussion with a friend where I said I really didn't like the first movie, and she said it was much better so I trusted her and watched it.

One film I saw before there was any hype about it was Dogtooth. I saw it on opening night and thought, ok that was a very standard European arthouse movie, that I did not really like, and then it absolutely blew up to my astonishment. Funnily enough the hype seemed to disappear as soon as 2010.

I found your conversation on standards interesting, Matthias & Maxime I really liked during ICMFF, but I think people felt, nothing new here from Xavier Dolan, so it's been judged quite
negatively. I think people are crying out for him to astonish us, or at least change tack.

I'm really hyped up to see "I Don't Care If We Go Down In History As Barbarians", based on your comments Chris!

The Oscars are complete dirt, if I found out a movie was involved with Oscars, that would be a negative indicator for me. I do not understand how they almost always nominate poor films.

My process for how to see a film in general is:
(1) Does the plot / description of the film sound interesting - this is pretty important
(2) What is the pedigree of the creatives involved in this project
(3) Does the trailer look good?
(4) Does anyone I trust, critic or filmgoer, say something about this film which makes it sound interesting. This is a tiny list of people, mostly made up of people on this forum.

I probably need 1-2 of those to be ticked. The degree of general hype is completely irrelevant to me.

Sol is #91 rated on ICM and has no platinums, I love it! I have only one platinum, and I did a couple of watches specifically to get it, and felt quite dirty about it, I think it's very unlikely that I would "naturally" get a platinum, i.e. get the medal by just watching films that I felt were going to be good. Thriller is a genre that's so naturally good for me that I only had to do a couple of punishment watches to get the platinum.

My Blueberry Nights, I enjoyed a lot by the way, maybe you will be swayed by my positive buzz.

A really poor argument at one point on hype, how can hype be overhyped it's hype, words aren't automatically self applicable, for example the word chocolate is not made of chocolate. The concept of hype itself it definitely capable of being under or over hyped.
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#5

Post by kongs_speech »

matthewscott8 wrote: December 30th, 2022, 5:19 pm I was really confused about the discussion about being pricks. Is a prick meant to be the opposite of someone who is susceptible to hype? I would try to use a more descriptive word, maybe freethinker something like that. Autistic people are a category of people who are less likely to be affected by hype so I would be careful here, it's almost definitional to autism.
As an autistic person myself, I'm afraid I'm not quite sure what you're on about here. Are you saying we don't get hyped or excited for things? Maybe that is your personal experience, but speaking for myself and plenty of my friends who are on the spectrum, we get as excited as anyone else does. I find myself very often stoked to see the next great film. This just seems like a really peculiar thing you're trying to associate with autism. I didn't listen to the podcast, as I don't care for podcasts, but it seems like you're trying to shame them for something that wasn't stated or even reasonably implied.

and yes there is definitely some implicit classism and ableism (not racism necessarily) in the idea that anyone can or should go vegan
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#6

Post by kongs_speech »

Pretentious Hipster wrote: December 30th, 2022, 5:04 pm Not really hype, but perhaps a fanbase might ruin something. I'm waiting for the hype to die down for Everything Everywhere All at Once in a few years before seeing it for this reason. The fanbase is getting so toxic that even one of the directors is telling them to calm down, and I feel like that might cloud my judgement ie "it has to be THAT good I guess" or perhaps "the fanbase is dumb cause of this so this movie must be dumb"
Now this I entirely understand. Fandoms in general are pure cringe. I've never seen a decent or functional one. When mass groups of people who love something get together, they're inherently incapable of loving it reasonably without pulling any kind of nonsense, and I think perhaps this speaks to the darker side of human nature. Brendan Fraser's character in The Whale (masterpiece) says "do you ever get the feeling that people are incapable of not caring? People are amazing." Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree. I think that most people are apathetic to most things, and when they do care, it's often directed in a toxic way.
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#7

Post by blocho »

How exactly does hype affect you? Can it actually make you dislike films you might otherwise have liked? - And if so - what was a recent victim?
I think generally it's a mistake to go into a movie with high expectations. In my experience at least, it almost always means I won't enjoy the movie as much as I would have without those expectations, and that's true no matter the overall quality of the movie. I remember going to see Quantum of Solace in theaters and feeling very hyped because of how much I enjoyed Casino Royale. Quantum of Solace is bad and I wouldn't have enjoyed it under any circumstances, but my disappointment was so great because of my heightened expectations that the experience completely ruined my day.

Do you feel that you need to see the latest hot property as soon as possible to feel like you are still in the loop?
Am I in the loop? Or am I in the soup? The hype loop? Maybe even the hyperloop? I think I'm so far from the loop I couldn't find it if I tried.

Do you feel the need to speak up/be a contrarian if you don't love an overhyped film?
Kind of the opposite, actually. I often question my own judgment and wonder whether I missed something. At least that was my tendency when I was younger. Over the years, I've grown more comfortable trusting my own reactions, though I still fall into this pattern occasionally.

Are you in the zeitgeist and follow the buzz, and if so, are there any cinephile bubbles you are vulnerable too - or are there just certain films that explode out of the ether?
I am in the zeitgeist exactly to the extent to which I am in the loop.

Bonus question: Do we come across as massive pricks?
I won't comment just because I don't want to generate any prick envy.
Last edited by blocho on December 31st, 2022, 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#8

Post by hurluberlu »

I need to see the Fabelmans first.
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#9

Post by mightysparks »

"Every few months someone will mention a film and I don't know what's going on and I feel like an old person!"

I wasn't on the podcast but I'm pretty sure this is also a quote from me :p



How exactly does hype affect you? Can it actually make you dislike films you might otherwise have liked? - And if so - what was a recent victim?
I very rarely come across 'hype'. It doesn't affect me at all.

Do you feel that you need to see the latest hot property as soon as possible to feel like you are still in the loop?
No, unless it seems like something I might like.

Do you feel the need to speak up/be a contrarian if you don't love an overhyped film?
I'll speak up about anything I don't love, I usually don't know or care if it's overhyped :turned:

Are you in the zeitgeist and follow the buzz, and if so, are there any cinephile bubbles you are vulnerable too - or are there just certain films that explode out of the ether?
I live under a rock. If it's not mentioned on the forum I probably don't know about it and even then I don't know a lot of the stuff people are talking about. I am sometimes aware of upcoming horror films because I do check out horror festivals and horror lists.

What even is hype? (Difference between buzz and hype)
Idk those are the same to me. I would probably associate hype with something that's not released yet or something that has just been released and risen to the top of some rating chart/that everyone is loving whereas buzz is more just a general discussion that's not necessarily positive.

Is anti-hype a thing? (I.e. films you likely would have seen if there had not been negative buzz)
I think so. Sometimes I'm interested in an unreleased horror film that everyone dumps on when it comes out and it'll put me off (and if the horror crowd aren't loving it it's probably going to suck).

And finally: Is hype overhyped?
idk
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#10

Post by flavo5000 »

How exactly does hype affect you? Can it actually make you dislike films you might otherwise have liked? - And if so - what was a recent victim?
It doesn't really affect me one way or another. I see no reason to let other people's opinions of films decide mine for me.

Do you feel that you need to see the latest hot property as soon as possible to feel like you are still in the loop?
Nah, I just got around to watching Squid Game a couple months ago. It was fine but felt like a ripoff of As the Gods Will.

Do you feel the need to speak up/be a contrarian if you don't love an overhyped film?
Nope.

Are you in the zeitgeist and follow the buzz, and if so, are there any cinephile bubbles you are vulnerable too - or are there just certain films that explode out of the ether?
Does the ICM Forum count as a cinephile bubble? That's about the only way I probably end up hearing about new films beyond a couple of horror Facebook groups I'm in.

What even is hype? (Difference between buzz and hype)
hype
/hīp/
INFORMAL
noun
extravagant or intensive publicity or promotion.

Is anti-hype a thing? (I.e. films you likely would have seen if there had not been negative buzz)
Only to the extent of them getting buried and making them harder to discover.

And finally: Is hype overhyped?
Um.... probably?

Bonus question: Do we come across as massive pricks?
Dunno. Haven't listened to it yet.
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#11

Post by Torgo »

blocho wrote: December 30th, 2022, 8:27 pm Do you feel the need to speak up/be a contrarian if you don't love an overhyped film?
Kind of the opposite, actually. I often question my own judgment and wonder whether I missed something. At least that was my tendency when I was younger. Over the years, I've grown more comfortable trusting my own reactions, though I still fall into this pattern occasionally.
Well said, I too know that feeling. I'm pretty comfortable with recent releases, as I'm fluid in their language (or how much I don't like Jeanne Dielmann :ph43r: ), but I tend to wonder what I'm doing wrong in my treatment of some classics that didn't work much for me. Of course their "hypes" and best-of lists from yesteryear and the canon are a totally different hype than something like Barbarian or Zack Snyder's Just League.
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#12

Post by Onderhond »

It always amuses me how most people are broadly capable of accepting taste is subjective, but when faced with adverse opinions find themselves doubting their own judgements.
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#13

Post by blocho »

Onderhond wrote: January 1st, 2023, 8:49 am It always amuses me how most people are broadly capable of accepting taste is subjective, but when faced with adverse opinions find themselves doubting their own judgements.
It's certainly strange.

In my case, it's not doubting my own judgment or taste as much as doubting my own frame of mind. When I see a very highly praised movie and I don't like it, I sometimes think maybe my mind was wandering or I was just not in the right mood and I would feel differently if I had seen the movie on a different day. This tendency is partly the product of the fact that I have occasionally changed my mind a lot about a movie upon a rewatch.
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#14

Post by OldAle1 »

blocho wrote: January 1st, 2023, 6:42 pm
Onderhond wrote: January 1st, 2023, 8:49 am It always amuses me how most people are broadly capable of accepting taste is subjective, but when faced with adverse opinions find themselves doubting their own judgements.
It's certainly strange.

In my case, it's not doubting my own judgment or taste as much as doubting my own frame of mind. When I see a very highly praised movie and I don't like it, I sometimes think maybe my mind was wandering or I was just not in the right mood and I would feel differently if I had seen the movie on a different day. This tendency is partly the product of the fact that I have occasionally changed my mind a lot about a movie upon a rewatch.
Yeah, I'm with you on that. I remember first seeing Nashville just after a major rejection and just not getting anything out of it and being bored and angry throughout; I knew almost immediately afterwards (when I was a bit less depressed) that I'd need to see it again.

And of course there are films that I saw a long, long time ago, before I had any consciousness of their reputations or anybody else's opinions, and in some of those cases I might doubt myself.

Most often though, I find myself "doubting" my rating or opinion when it's something universally revered that I like - but don't love. And sometimes those re-watches prove to be valuable, e.g. Chinatown for me last November. I already liked it but there was just... something missing. This time it clicked.
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#15

Post by Torgo »

blocho wrote: January 1st, 2023, 6:42 pm
Onderhond wrote: January 1st, 2023, 8:49 am It always amuses me how most people are broadly capable of accepting taste is subjective, but when faced with adverse opinions find themselves doubting their own judgements.
It's certainly strange.

In my case, it's not doubting my own judgment or taste as much as doubting my own frame of mind. When I see a very highly praised movie and I don't like it, I sometimes think maybe my mind was wandering or I was just not in the right mood and I would feel differently if I had seen the movie on a different day.
You do realize who you're talking to, right?
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#16

Post by St. Gloede »

matthewscott8 wrote: December 30th, 2022, 5:19 pm The only director I would get excited about seeing a new release from would be Lars von Trier, just because he seems to be able to deal with big topics with big films, and is just that much more intellectually and creatively powerful than the critics of his films. It seems impossible at this juncture that he could put out an un-noteworthy / incompetent artwork.
Wow, just 1?! That said, essentially everything von Trier has made is great in my book too.

That said, even with my favourite current director (based on their work from the last 10-20 years) would be Jude and I still haven't seen his 3 our still photograph documentary, Exit From the Trains from 2020 (in part due to his shorter still photograph film Dead Nation is my least favourite of his) so maybe I have none at this point and JLG was the last.
I was really confused about the discussion about being pricks. Is a prick meant to be the opposite of someone who is susceptible to hype? I would try to use a more descriptive word, maybe freethinker something like that. Autistic people are a category of people who are less likely to be affected by hype so I would be careful here, it's almost definitional to autism.
The "(condescending) prick" joke ties back to the intro. It is not about the reaction to hype, but looking down on/condescending to people who are susceptible to hype - and the joke rolled on from there.
I was already planning on seeing Jeanne Dielman, and already had the Bluray, but the S&S discussion definitely has moved it up my agenda.
I really think you might love this one, looking forward to your take.
I saw and loved Glass Onion recently, I had a discussion with a friend where I said I really didn't like the first movie, and she said it was much better so I trusted her and watched it.
Now that's unexpected, was not planning on seeing this one. Might now.
I found your conversation on standards interesting, Matthias & Maxime I really liked during ICMFF, but I think people felt, nothing new here from Xavier Dolan, so it's been judged quite negatively. I think people are crying out for him to astonish us, or at least change tack.
Really good point, I think that's a very common reaction, and of course you can get the exact opposite reaction if they try something completely new/different.

I actually thought Matthias & Maxime was more restrained than the usual Dolan and that he was trying something new, but I guess not enough - and this reaction is definitely common
I'm really hyped up to see "I Don't Care If We Go Down In History As Barbarians", based on your comments Chris!
:cheers:
My process for how to see a film in general is:
(1) Does the plot / description of the film sound interesting - this is pretty important
(2) What is the pedigree of the creatives involved in this project
(3) Does the trailer look good?
(4) Does anyone I trust, critic or filmgoer, say something about this film which makes it sound interesting. This is a tiny list of people, mostly made up of people on this forum.

I probably need 1-2 of those to be ticked. The degree of general hype is completely irrelevant to me.
Pretty airtight process there!
My Blueberry Nights, I enjoyed a lot by the way, maybe you will be swayed by my positive buzz.
:lol: Hmmmm, maybe indeed.
A really poor argument at one point on hype, how can hype be overhyped it's hype, words aren't automatically self applicable, for example the word chocolate is not made of chocolate. The concept of hype itself it definitely capable of being under or over-hyped.
Agreed there actually, that argument took me off guard :D At least we managed to get a mini-reaction to whether our reaction to hype/how it affects us can be over-hyped. Semantics are fun.
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#17

Post by St. Gloede »

blocho wrote: December 30th, 2022, 8:27 pm Do you feel the need to speak up/be a contrarian if you don't love an overhyped film?
Kind of the opposite, actually. I often question my own judgment and wonder whether I missed something. At least that was my tendency when I was younger. Over the years, I've grown more comfortable trusting my own reactions, though I still fall into this pattern occasionally.
OldAle1 wrote: January 1st, 2023, 6:49 pm
blocho wrote: January 1st, 2023, 6:42 pm
Onderhond wrote: January 1st, 2023, 8:49 am It always amuses me how most people are broadly capable of accepting taste is subjective, but when faced with adverse opinions find themselves doubting their own judgements.
It's certainly strange.

In my case, it's not doubting my own judgment or taste as much as doubting my own frame of mind. When I see a very highly praised movie and I don't like it, I sometimes think maybe my mind was wandering or I was just not in the right mood and I would feel differently if I had seen the movie on a different day. This tendency is partly the product of the fact that I have occasionally changed my mind a lot about a movie upon a rewatch.
Yeah, I'm with you on that. I remember first seeing Nashville just after a major rejection and just not getting anything out of it and being bored and angry throughout; I knew almost immediately afterwards (when I was a bit less depressed) that I'd need to see it again.

And of course there are films that I saw a long, long time ago, before I had any consciousness of their reputations or anybody else's opinions, and in some of those cases I might doubt myself.

Most often though, I find myself "doubting" my rating or opinion when it's something universally revered that I like - but don't love. And sometimes those re-watches prove to be valuable, e.g. Chinatown for me last November. I already liked it but there was just... something missing. This time it clicked.
Now, this is an interesting discussion! (envisioning a "Contrarian" episode exploring this very uncertainty now)

I'm very similar to blocho and OldAle here in that if I am less than enamoured by a hugely beloved film I do wonder if I missed something, or if it will be a film I will like at a different point in my life.

Fleeting concentration is certainly a very real concern and if you are not in the right headspace, too tired or just not giving 100 of your attention a viewing can be very, very different. I remember seeing Pintilie's Why Are the Bells Ringing, Mitica? last year or the year before and liking it perfectly well, just not loving it. I was definitely a bit tired and not feeling 100% and when I found The Oak great the next day I went back and rewatched it - first time I have rewatched a film within 2-3 days as an adult - and it became a favourite. With Pintilie his style is obviously very fast-paced and it is possible to miss a lot, but this can be an issue with any film and perhaps even more so contemplative films.

There are also films you just aren't ready for, or you don't "get". I know many times when a film has "opened" a director for me and I suddenly feel in synch and get what they are doing. Just liking/loving a "lesser" film from a director who's biggest films disappointed you is also a good sign you may be ready now, and this often works. Taste evolves and you will likely not feel the same forever.

But going back to becoming uncertain when facing opposing views I think that's perfectly reasonable rather than odd. If they have points I simply disagree with, it is a great way to just exchange views and see how something will work differently for different people, and my views will likely not be shaken. However, if someone has an entirely different read on a film, picked up subtext you didn't or explains why X element was so successful - maybe I really missed something.
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#18

Post by matthewscott8 »

St. Gloede wrote: January 2nd, 2023, 8:04 amJLG was the last.
JLG was an insta-watch for sure.
The "(condescending) prick" joke ties back to the intro. It is not about the reaction to hype, but looking down on/condescending to people who are susceptible to hype - and the joke rolled on from there.
Ah I got confused because growing up people would use it in the exact opposite way, i.e. if you were immune to hype you were a prick. Maybe I can also clear up what I am getting at here. I'm starting to try and not use non-descriptive insults. For example say I'm at a party talking to someone and I say, who is that who just walked in and they say, "oh that's Paul, he's an asshole, I wouldn't talk to him", now one thing we can be clear on, Paul is not this anatomical feature, what I'd prefer to hear is "oh that's Paul, he's got a short temper, and he doesn't like film people", or "oh that's Paul, he's a Bernie Sanders voter", because then I can make up my own mind whether I want to talk to the guy, in the former case probably not, in the latter case well I might well, because I don't share the belief that voting for Bernie makes someone an asshole. It's tangential to this thread, but I made the point somewhere else here recently as well, that these words are often obfuscatory. Let's say someone pulls me aside and points out how uncomfortable I make people feel when I make jokes about fat people, I'm angry that I haven't noticed, that I've been inconsiderate, and that someone is policing me so maybe I just decide that person is a "prick". Or maybe I describe someone as a prick, and what I mean is that they're a convicted sex offender, but the person I said that to might not take my opinion seriously because I'm describing someone using anatomy. As I think I said elsewhere, use of those words often let's the real issue off the hook. This has got very tangential now, basically I'm on a campaign to convince people to stop using these words!

Now that's unexpected, was not planning on seeing this one. Might now.
Probably worth me being clear about why I was so into Glass Onion, I'll aim to be tantalizing without spoiling it. I am a complete 10 Little Indians nut, I have seen so many of the adaptations of this story. The Glass Onion, flirts with 10LI, takes it out for a tango, gets it home before the coach turns into a pumpkin, drinks champagne from the glass slipper. It's a glorious cross-fertilization. I have googled this, and whilst this was patently obvious to me from very early on in the film, only a few very niche review sites have picked up on it. It's just beautiful to see someone make 10LI so fecund again.

But also what I will say is that I think this is a movie made about this era, in this era. It's a real memorandum on everything that's wrong about now, the idolizing of toxic idiots (since I've watched the movie Andrew Tate is in cuffs), the emperors new clothes of cryptocurrency (SBF in cuffs not long after the release of the movie), the hocus pocus techno babble and techno-religion that has come from Musk and his cack-brained projects (no Neuralink is not going to save the world, Musk is just torturing monkeys and pigs). It's really rare for a movie to tackle all the big issues of an era within the era, it's front and centre of the movie, it's one of the two meanings of the metaphor The Glass Onion.

This is nectar to me.

:lol: Hmmmm, maybe indeed.
I guess it's worth me giving a take on My Blueberry Nights here. My belief is that one of the things people in the West like about watching Wong films, or really any film not in English-language is its "otherness". There's a question of, if Wong or say Refn remade In The Mood For Love in English-language, would people actually like the result. Or is there an exotic element that's critical to the love, the different food, the different clothes, the unfamiliar language and places. Well with My Blueberry Nights we know what a Wong movie in the west looks like, and people didn't seem all that interested. What I can say is that I still felt the sense of atmospheric desire-drenched melancholy, and I remember a week spent floating home in the dark on my way back from work, with the theme tune playing in my mind.

And I ask myself, do the same people who think "My Blueberry Nights" is a generic uninspiring name think that "The Scent of Green Papaya" sounds really exotic and inspiring? And do the same people who find the characters in MBN "wooden", find the characters in Chungking Express "alluringly inscrutable".
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matthewscott8
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#19

Post by matthewscott8 »

Onderhond wrote: January 1st, 2023, 8:49 am It always amuses me how most people are broadly capable of accepting taste is subjective, but when faced with adverse opinions find themselves doubting their own judgements.
Hopefully different subjectivities fertilize one another, else what are we all doing here. Like if someone watches Manhattan and tells me it's swooningly romantic, and then I point out that Isaac's relationship with Tracy is probably based on Allen's alleged pedophilic experiences, then maybe they will change their opinion on the movie. People are capable of introducing new opinions and perspectives to one another that alter their original feelings on the movie. To me this is personal growth. So far it has only ever had the effect of increasing my "sense of cinema".
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#20

Post by St. Gloede »

matthewscott8 wrote: January 2nd, 2023, 11:47 am
St. Gloede wrote: January 2nd, 2023, 8:04 amJLG was the last.
JLG was an insta-watch for sure.
The "(condescending) prick" joke ties back to the intro. It is not about the reaction to hype, but looking down on/condescending to people who are susceptible to hype - and the joke rolled on from there.
Ah I got confused because growing up people would use it in the exact opposite way, i.e. if you were immune to hype you were a prick. Maybe I can also clear up what I am getting at here. I'm starting to try and not use non-descriptive insults. For example say I'm at a party talking to someone and I say, who is that who just walked in and they say, "oh that's Paul, he's an asshole, I wouldn't talk to him", now one thing we can be clear on, Paul is not this anatomical feature, what I'd prefer to hear is "oh that's Paul, he's got a short temper, and he doesn't like film people", or "oh that's Paul, he's a Bernie Sanders voter", because then I can make up my own mind whether I want to talk to the guy, in the former case probably not, in the latter case well I might well, because I don't share the belief that voting for Bernie makes someone an asshole. It's tangential to this thread, but I made the point somewhere else here recently as well, that these words are often obfuscatory. Let's say someone pulls me aside and points out how uncomfortable I make people feel when I make jokes about fat people, I'm angry that I haven't noticed, that I've been inconsiderate, and that someone is policing me so maybe I just decide that person is a "prick". Or maybe I describe someone as a prick, and what I mean is that they're a convicted sex offender, but the person I said that to might not take my opinion seriously because I'm describing someone using anatomy. As I think I said elsewhere, use of those words often let's the real issue off the hook. This has got very tangential now, basically I'm on a campaign to convince people to stop using these words!
I never knew there was a basis of calling people pricks related to hype :D :D :D it was just an arbitrary self-inflicted slur that was not too crass, could have been anything.

In terms of going with specific reasons why you have an issue with people, that is very valuable and I would definitely co-sign that, though for comedic purposes that would not really have worked here.
Now that's unexpected, was not planning on seeing this one. Might now.
Probably worth me being clear about why I was so into Glass Onion, I'll aim to be tantalizing without spoiling it. I am a complete 10 Little Indians nut, I have seen so many of the adaptations of this story. The Glass Onion, flirts with 10LI, takes it out for a tango, gets it home before the coach turns into a pumpkin, drinks champagne from the glass slipper. It's a glorious cross-fertilization. I have googled this, and whilst this was patently obvious to me from very early on in the film, only a few very niche review sites have picked up on it. It's just beautiful to see someone make 10LI so fecund again.

But also what I will say is that I think this is a movie made about this era, in this era. It's a real memorandum on everything that's wrong about now, the idolizing of toxic idiots (since I've watched the movie Andrew Tate is in cuffs), the emperors new clothes of cryptocurrency (SBF in cuffs not long after the release of the movie), the hocus pocus techno babble and techno-religion that has come from Musk and his cack-brained projects (no Neuralink is not going to save the world, Musk is just torturing monkeys and pigs). It's really rare for a movie to tackle all the big issues of an era within the era, it's front and centre of the movie, it's one of the two meanings of the metaphor The Glass Onion.

This is nectar to me.[/quote]

Got you, thanks. Have to admit I have never read 10 Little Indians, though I have seen the 1945 adaptation, which is a pretty great film.
:lol: Hmmmm, maybe indeed.
I guess it's worth me giving a take on My Blueberry Nights here. My belief is that one of the things people in the West like about watching Wong films, or really any film not in English-language is its "otherness". There's a question of, if Wong or say Refn remade In The Mood For Love in English-language, would people actually like the result. Or is there an exotic element that's critical to the love, the different food, the different clothes, the unfamiliar language and places. Well with My Blueberry Nights we know what a Wong movie in the west looks like, and people didn't seem all that interested. What I can say is that I still felt the sense of atmospheric desire-drenched melancholy, and I remember a week spent floating home in the dark on my way back from work, with the theme tune playing in my mind.

And I ask myself, do the same people who think "My Blueberry Nights" is a generic uninspiring name think that "The Scent of Green Papaya" sounds really exotic and inspiring? And do the same people who find the characters in MBN "wooden", find the characters in Chungking Express "alluringly inscrutable".
Hmmm, the otherness/exotic factor may definitely be a feature in why many are drawn to "foreign" films, or indeed older films as well. Brett and I did a podcast on Burkina Faso where we talked about why so many similar films (in terms of scenery/setting) were the ones to be promoted in the west, and the "otherness"/using the scenery for what it is worth is definitely a part of why they stand out to me as well (I wish Norway did the same with our nature). And indeed customs, clothing, and architecture all plays a part. I can't fully imagine how Ozu would handle a move to the US or Briain stylistically for instance, he'd likely have to make changes to where his films are shot from or just stop people from sitting on chairs :D

In terms of the title being uninspiring compared to The Scent of Green Papaya, I don't know if that's a frequent critique, I think it is an interesting choice, but for the characters and language, the transition is not always easy or a 1 to 1. One film I saw recently (which beyond being great with strong insights into two completely different approaches to filmmaking) was Chytilova vs. Forman, in which Forman says he can be the original writer of a film in America, he can only adapt, as he did not have an American childhood and even if he had lived there for a decade was still missing certain cultural clues. He may have been commenting on a personal shortcoming or maybe just misplaced feeling of inauthenticity that he could not tell stories of/from another culture, many clearly can - but it is also something people struggle with.

I remember when it was first released one of the critics on At the Movies compared it to Zabriske Point in terms of how the acting/dialogue felt and that it came off as more wooden, and we do see this in many cases of people coming into the US from other cultures. Interestingly, the South Koreans seem to be doing fairly well, i.e. Bong's Snowpiercer and Park's Stoker, but there is often this sense that the director is not quite sure how to work within X language/culture and that things start to feel a little off.

And then there is also the language barrier, i.e. fans of a director may miss certain details in their stylization of language on both good and bad. I remember French users explaining that if you don't speak French you can never fully appreciate the wordplay of Michel Audiard scripts for instance, while in other cases there may be muted elements to acting/dialogue that people were either not prepared for or which may even not work as well in all languages.

Anyhow, I will need to seek out My Blueberry Nights to know for sure now.

(The Grandmaster, the only WKW film made after, is likely my least favourite from him though)
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#21

Post by Onderhond »

matthewscott8 wrote: January 2nd, 2023, 12:09 pm
Onderhond wrote: January 1st, 2023, 8:49 am It always amuses me how most people are broadly capable of accepting taste is subjective, but when faced with adverse opinions find themselves doubting their own judgements.
Hopefully different subjectivities fertilize one another, else what are we all doing here. Like if someone watches Manhattan and tells me it's swooningly romantic, and then I point out that Isaac's relationship with Tracy is probably based on Allen's alleged pedophilic experiences, then maybe they will change their opinion on the movie. People are capable of introducing new opinions and perspectives to one another that alter their original feelings on the movie. To me this is personal growth. So far it has only ever had the effect of increasing my "sense of cinema".
I'm afraid that concept is quite alien to me.

The relationship between me and a movie is something completely personal.
The conversation I have with others about a movie tells me more about others, not so much about the movie. The movie itself becomes more of an excuse to pick someone else's brain. That's very valuable imo, but it doesn't impact my feelings about a movie in any way.
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