Year-by-Year Polls: 1920 (CLOSED)

pitchorneirda · #41

OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 9:54 pm
Lakigigar wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 9:36 pm

And they probably won't be rediscovered.... most films (99,9%) probably already are rediscovered if they were to be rediscovered? I can't understand why people were that wasteful. Huge gaps of film history are just missing... Who knows that some considered by critics a "film masterpiece" for you guys just is missing or lost.
Probably not, but you never know. There are fairly significant discoveries pretty often, like the one memorialized in Dawson City: Frozen TIme. You have to remember that most films - features that were meant to be distributed anyway - existed in multiple prints. Sure, the original negative may be gone, maybe there weren't any copies of that - but even in the early silent era there were hundreds of positive prints made of some films, so the chances that they are all gone isn't usually 100% - they made their way out to various places and some got lost at the time, never sent back to studios, etc.

As to why people didn't save them - well, it was a disposable art form, just as almost everything is considered disposable at some point. I used to collect comics - in the early days of American comics print runs were typically in the hundred thousands, with some over a million, and yet there are very few comics from the 30s and 40s that exist today with more than 200 known copies, so a destruction rate of 99.9% or more, typically. Books, phonograph records - all media - the machines that played the media - posters - paintings - bicycles and cars and...everything. Scrapped, 99% of it. That's been our human society forever so the fact that so many movies are gone shouldn't be that surprising, especially when you consider how flammable all the early film stock was.

Emphasizing the most important point

OldAle1 · #42

pitchorneirda wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 9:58 pm
OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 9:54 pm
Lakigigar wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 9:36 pm

And they probably won't be rediscovered.... most films (99,9%) probably already are rediscovered if they were to be rediscovered? I can't understand why people were that wasteful. Huge gaps of film history are just missing... Who knows that some considered by critics a "film masterpiece" for you guys just is missing or lost.
Probably not, but you never know. There are fairly significant discoveries pretty often, like the one memorialized in Dawson City: Frozen TIme. You have to remember that most films - features that were meant to be distributed anyway - existed in multiple prints. Sure, the original negative may be gone, maybe there weren't any copies of that - but even in the early silent era there were hundreds of positive prints made of some films, so the chances that they are all gone isn't usually 100% - they made their way out to various places and some got lost at the time, never sent back to studios, etc.

As to why people didn't save them - well, it was a disposable art form, just as almost everything is considered disposable at some point. I used to collect comics - in the early days of American comics print runs were typically in the hundred thousands, with some over a million, and yet there are very few comics from the 30s and 40s that exist today with more than 200 known copies, so a destruction rate of 99.9% or more, typically. Books, phonograph records - all media - the machines that played the media - posters - paintings - bicycles and cars and...everything. Scrapped, 99% of it. That's been our human society forever so the fact that so many movies are gone shouldn't be that surprising, especially when you consider how flammable all the early film stock was.
Emphasizing the most important point

Yeah, there's also the silver that was in the silver nitrate, which was valuable and could be re-used for purposes that were deemed more important than silly ol' flickers by people like Eric von Stroheim.

Also the hosts of natural disasters and poor storage conditions that have resulted in nearly all of the pre-1923 output of Japan (and much of it's pre-1945 work) and most Filipino films prior to the 1980s being wiped out (as far as we know now). And censorship issues - how many pre-1980 Iranian films will ever see the light of day again. All kinds of reasons.

iCheckMovies · #43

Lakigigar wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 9:36 pm
St. Gloede wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 10:31 am
Lakigigar wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 8:12 am
Just out of interest, when you mean 1/10th of all feature length films from that year that IMDb lists, does that include lost films? Is that included in the total pot or excluded? And if so, what is the estimated percentage of lost films?
Not sure about 1920 specifically, but here's a few sources from Wikipedia:

Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation claims that "half of all American films made before 1950 and over 90% of films made before 1929 are lost forever."

Deutsche Kinemathek estimates that 80–90% of silent films are gone;[5] the film archive's own list contains over 3,500 lost films.

A study by the Library of Congress states that 75% of all silent films are now lost.
Most lost films are likely not on IMDb though, I have even come across several films from the period over the years that were not lost but still did not have an IMDb entry at the time.
And they probably won't be rediscovered.... most films (99,9%) probably already are rediscovered if they were to be rediscovered? I can't understand why people were that wasteful. Huge gaps of film history are just missing... Who knows that some considered by critics a "film masterpiece" for you guys just is missing or lost.

Films are consistently rediscovered every year actually. A lot of films are simply not archived correctly and there's little to no funding to get this work done. Many times the people with access to them don't even know they are believed to be missing or they will be archived under alternative titles that do not correspond to the original title. It is very common for them to be found in other countries, for instance with Russian intertitles instead of English, German, etc. A lot of foundations are actively involved in bringing silents to life, especially in restoration projects of films which have not been released since the 20s. We get "new" silents dropping every month.

But yes, a lot is just gone as the studies would melt and repurpose the film material, as they saw no value storing it (which is why the ones shipped abroad are often the ones that survive).

Very few of the big, obvious "masterpieces", as decried by the critics of the time were lost luckily. The biggest is 4 Devils, which Murnau made in 1928 (between Sunrise and City Girl), which was actually saved by the studio but was reportedly destroyed by mistake when loaned out to one of its stars in the 70s. Another massive film is Tod Browning's London After Midnight, starring Lon Chaney, which is so desired it was "recreated" with stills and released in the 00s.

However, there would obviously be many lesser-known films likely to be discovered and viewed as masterpieces here that are no longer with us, and many big directors have a large numbers of films missing. Luckily, these are often early films, before they grew into their craft or lesser regarded films though.

OldAle1 · #44

At least Murnau and Browning have quite substantial filmographies that are left to us; to me the biggest loss is probably the bulk of Sadao Yamanaka's filmography; just based on the three currently known I wouldn't necessarily say he was on the level of Ozu, Naruse, Mizoguchi, Shimizu or Uchida - all of whom have missing films as well I think - but he was different enough from them and interesting enough in his own right that not having more of his legacy really hurts.

Lakigigar · #45

Maybe some people still have things in their attic... I don't know about our attic, but no people have been there for at least decades... and it's quite an old house since the attic was used to hide Canadian soldiers from Germans which our great-grandparents have done, but i'm not sure if that was WW1 or WW2. I live quite close to the front line of WW1 so perhaps it is even that one. Luckily they succeeded in hiding them. Unfortunately i don't think used to watch films, i don't know i haven't asked but given my mom doesn't really probably indicates that no-one of the family did.

Torgo · #46

Just make sure to give us a holler when that Murnau Vier Teufel happens to show up there.
It's always in the place you search the last ..

Lakigigar · #47

Torgo wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 10:42 pm Just make sure to give us a holler when that Murnau Vier Teufel happens to show up there.
It's always in the place you search the last ..

I wish but I strongly doubt it, and there have been people there not just in the last decades... We live next to my grandmom, she is 93 i think (or 94 or 95, born in the 1920's, i think 1927), and i don't even know if she has an attic. Should probably ask about it. But yes, she can't obviously go to the attic, she is in the 90's, could maybe ask my mom about it. I'm sure lots of interesting things can be found, but film i doubt it... But if many people did the same thing (like 10.000 people), maybe one person would be able to find something out of worth.

Also i'm not sure how it would look like.

Dolwphin · #48

"I found 4 Devils in my attic" somebody convincingly claimed awhile ago at another forum. Pepperidge Farm Remembers!

Angel Glez · #49

Ranked (sort of):
The Penalty
Why Change Your Wife?
Something to Think About
Mästerman (A Lover in Pawn)
The Mark of Zorro
Der Golem, wie er in die Welt kam (The Golem)
The Cradle of Courage
Conrad in Quest of His Youth
The Last of the Mohicans
Prästänkan (The Parson's Widow)
Just Pals
L'homme du large (Man of the Sea)
Fante-Anne (Gypsy Anne)
Bodakungen (The Tyranny of Hate)
Karin Ingmarsdotter (Karin Daughter of Ingmar)
The Toll Gate
Neighbors
The Scarecrow
One Week
High and Dizzy

URLs

HM (filmed in 1920 but not released):
L'Hirondelle et la Mésange

Deliberately excluded (IMDb/TSPDT/S&S top 500):
Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari

MoTH · #50

Ranked list:

1. Prästänkan / The Parson's Widow (Carl Th. Dreyer)
2. Mästerman / A Lover in Pawn (Victor Sjöström)
3. L'homme du large / Man of the Sea (Marcel L'Herbier)
4. Romeo und Julia im Schnee / Romeo and Juliet in the Snow (Ernst Lubitsch)
5. Karin Ingmarsdotter / Karin Daughter of Ingmar (Victor Sjöström)
6. Thora van Deken / A Mother's Fight (John Brunius)
7. Erotikon (Mauritz Stiller)
8. Humoresque (Frank Borzage)
9. Why Change Your Wife? (Cecil B. De Mille)
10. Kohlhiesels Töchter / Kohlhiesel's Daughters (Ernst Lubitsch)
11. Klostret i Sendomir / The Monastery of Sendomir (Victor Sjöström)
12. The Scarecrow (Buster Keaton and Eddie Cline)
13. Way Down East (D.W. Griffith)
14. One Week (Buster Keaton and Eddie Cline)
15. Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari /The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (Robert Wiene)
16. Just Pals (John Ford)
17. Neighbors (Buster Keaton and Eddie Cline)
18. Number, Please? (Hal Roach and Fred Newmeyer)
19. High and Dizzy (Hal Roach)
20. An Eastern Westerner (Hal Roach)

Spoiler

insomnius · #51

1. Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari (Robert Wiene)
2. Der Golem, wie er in die Welt kam (Paul Wegener, Carl Boese)
3. L'homme du large / Man of the Sea (Marcel L'Herbier)
4. La storia di una donna (Eugenio Perego)
5. Die Würghand / The Strangling Hand (Cornelius Hintner)
6. One Week (Buster Keaton, Edward F. Cline)
7. Way Down East (D.W. Griffith)
8. Genuine (Robert Wiene)
9. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (John S. Robertson)
10. Von morgens bis Mitternacht / From Morn to Midnight (Karl Heinz Martin)
11. Prästänkan / The Parson's Widow (Carl Theodor Dreyer)
12. Mästerman (Victor Sjöström)
13. Anna Boleyn (Ernst Lubitsch)
14. Fante-Anne (Rasmus Breistein)
15. Bodakungen / The Tyranny of Hate (Gustaf Molander)
16. Kapten Grogg på Stora Oceanen / Captain Grogg on the Great Ocean (Victor Bergdahl)
17. Convict 13 (Edward F. Cline, Buster Keaton)
18. Algol - Tragödie der Macht / Power (Hans Werckmeister)
19. Klostret i Sendomir / The Monastery of Sendomir (Victor Sjöström)
20. Kapten Grogg och andra konstiga kroppar / Captain Grogg and Other Strange Creatures (Victor Bergdahl)

Spoiler

Rufus-T · #52

Hope to catch a few more titles before the deadline. This is it for now

1. One Week
2. Neighbors
3. Way Down East
4. The Mark of Zorro
5. Leaves From Satan's Book
6. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari
7. The Last of the Mohicans
8. The Parson's Widow
9. Within Our Gates
10. Our Heavenly Bodies (I believe this is a 1925 film, if anyone can confirm. Since IMDb has it as 1920, I am including it.)
11. The Scarecrow
12. Convict 13
13. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde
14. An Eastern Westerner
15. Anna Boleyn
16. Genuine: The Tragedy of a Vampire
17. The Golem
18. Haunted Spooks
19. Terror Island
20. High and Dizzy

Spoiler

zomgmouse · #53

Barely managed to cobble together 5 films, although quite a few Honourable Mentions:

4.5/5
1. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0010323/
2. One Week - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011541/
4/5
3. Haunted Spooks - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011263/
4. The Monastery of Sendomir - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0136292/
5. The Symbol of the Unconquered - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139632/

Hons
3.5/5 Within Our Gates, Neighbors, Outside the Law, Convict 13, Genuine, Number Please?, His Royal Slyness

Fergenaprido · #54

zomgmouse wrote: ↑January 24th, 2022, 3:41 am 4. The Monastery of Sendomir - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0136292/

This film you link to is listed as from 1919 Germany on imdb, but it says that https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011370/ is another version of the story, and it's from 1920 Sweden. Is that the one you meant? The 1919 one also has 0 votes on imdb, making me think it's not available, while the 1920 almost 500.

Dolwphin · #55

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑January 24th, 2022, 6:31 am
zomgmouse wrote: ↑January 24th, 2022, 3:41 am 4. The Monastery of Sendomir - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0136292/
This film you link to is listed as from 1919 Germany on imdb, but it says that https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011370/ is another version of the story, and it's from 1920 Sweden. Is that the one you meant? The 1919 one also has 0 votes on imdb, making me think it's not available, while the 1920 almost 500.

It is a great unsolvable mystery.

Teproc · #56

timshelboy wrote: ↑January 3rd, 2022, 11:57 am Links
1 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011841/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
2 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011723/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_5
3 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011656/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_4
4 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011742/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
5 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011541/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

zzzorf wrote: ↑January 13th, 2022, 4:58 am 1. On Our Selection
2. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde
3. The Man from Kangaroo
4. The Breaking of the Drought
5. Neighbors
6. Kohlhiesel's Daughters
7. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari
8. Robbery Under Arms
9. Genuine: The Tragedy of a Vampire

1. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011533/
2. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011130/
3. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011428/
4. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011024/
5. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011508/
6. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011371/
7. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0010323/
8. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011635/
9. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011221/

zomgmouse wrote: ↑January 24th, 2022, 3:41 am Barely managed to cobble together 5 films, although quite a few Honourable Mentions:

4.5/5
1. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0010323/
2. One Week - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011541/
4/5
3. Haunted Spooks - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011263/
4. The Monastery of Sendomir - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0136292/
5. The Symbol of the Unconquered - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139632/

Hons
3.5/5 Within Our Gates, Neighbors, Outside the Law, Convict 13, Genuine, Number Please?, His Royal Slyness

Hey, thanks for providing the links, but this format isn't actually the most practical for tabulating. It would be great if you could simply remove any text between the links, as that prevents me from getting them all in one go. Don't worry, your ballots will still be considered ranked accurately. To clarify, what I'd like is for the list of links to look like this (taking timshelboy's list here)

Spoiler

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011841/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011723/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_5
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011656/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_4
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011742/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011541/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

Angel Glez wrote: ↑January 14th, 2022, 10:47 am Ranked (sort of):

Just to be clear, I will be treating your ballot as "ranked" unless you specify otherwise.

zomgmouse · #57

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑January 24th, 2022, 6:31 am
zomgmouse wrote: ↑January 24th, 2022, 3:41 am 4. The Monastery of Sendomir - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0136292/
This film you link to is listed as from 1919 Germany on imdb, but it says that https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011370/ is another version of the story, and it's from 1920 Sweden. Is that the one you meant? The 1919 one also has 0 votes on imdb, making me think it's not available, while the 1920 almost 500.

Ah yes sorry I must have had the 1919 one open in my history from trying to find it - I do indeed mean the 1920 Sjöstrom version! https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011370/ is the correct link. And yes sadly I think the 1919 German one must be lost.

Teproc wrote: ↑January 24th, 2022, 9:23 pm
Hey, thanks for providing the links, but this format isn't actually the most practical for tabulating. It would be great if you could simply remove any text between the links, as that prevents me from getting them all in one go. Don't worry, your ballots will still be considered ranked accurately.

Just to be clear, I will be treating your ballot as "ranked" unless you specify otherwise.

In future I will do so! Apologies. And yes please consider my ballot as ranked. Thanks

joachimt · #58

@Teproc

You should install the Linkchump extension. That let's you copy a lot of links without the text in between. Very useful in other places as well, not just for this poll.

Fergenaprido · #59

You shouldn't need to worry about the extra text on each line, Teproc. I'm pretty sure the way that max set up the spreadsheet it automatically filters out everything else and extracts the ttid to make everything else work. The spaces between the lines that some people put is probably the biggest barrier to copying and pasting an entire ballot all in one go.

Teproc · #60

I'll look into that, thanks.

Melvelet · #61

1. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari
2. The Penalty
3. The Scarecrow
4. One Week
5. Neighbors

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0010323/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011565/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011656/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011541/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011508/

Opio · #62

1. Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, The (Wiene)
2. Way Down East (Griffith)
3. Last of the Mohicans, The (Brown, Tourneur)
4. Mark of Zorro, The (Niblo)
5. Leaves from Satan's Book (Dreyer)
6. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (Robertson)
7. Erotikon (Stiller)
8. Karin Ingmarsdotter (Sjostrom)
9. Golem, The (Wegener)
10. Genuine (Wiene)
11. One Week (Cline, Keaton)
12. Monastery of Sendomir, The (Sjostrom)
13. Penalty, The (Worsley)
14. Fante-Anne (Breistein)
15. From Morn to Midnight (Martin)
16. Sumurun (Lubitsch)
17. Neighbors (Cline, Keaton)
18. Why Change Your Wife? (DeMille)
19. Pollyanna (Powell)
20. Making of an American, The (Hedlund)

Links

gromit82 · #63

Teproc: Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to submit a ballot for this poll.

murnaunosferatu · #64

1. One Week
2. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari
3. Within Our Gates
4. Way Down East
5. The Scarecrow

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011541/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0010323/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011870/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011841/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011656/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_17

Fergenaprido · #65

Here's my list ~~thus far~~, ranked.

1. Neighbors
2. The Scarecrow
3. One Week
4. Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari [The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari]
5. Suds
6. The Penalty
7. Convict 13
8. Way Down East

URLs

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011508/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011656/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011541/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0010323/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011741/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011565/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011071/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011841/

~~I plan to watch Way Down East tomorrow and see what all the fuss is about, and perhaps a few more shorts. Hoping to hit at least 10 films I like enough to include on my ballot.~~
Saw Way Down East. Liked it, but too many characters and way too long. Didn't feel like bothering with any of the shorts, so my list will stay at 8 films. Cheers.

Opio · #66

rnilsson19 wrote: ↑January 11th, 2022, 6:47 pm 2. Tropical Nights (Robert C. Bruce)
3. Coves and Caves (Claude Friese-Greene)
4. Nude Woman by Waterfall (Claude Friese-Greene)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0143959/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3307930
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0143959/

I just noticed that your link for #4 also points to Tropical Nights, your #2.

Gordon_Gekko · #67

1. Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari
2. One Week
3. The Scarecrow
4. Der Golem, wie er in die Welt kam
5. Neighbors

Spoiler

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0010323/?ref_=adv_li_tt
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011541/?ref_=adv_li_tt
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011656/?ref_=adv_li_tt
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011237/?ref_=adv_li_tt
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011508/?ref_=adv_li_tt

OldAle1 · #68

1. Prästänkan (Carl Theodor Dreyer)
2. Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari (Robert Wiene)

3. One Week (Buster Keaton)
4. Neighbors (Buster Keaton)
5. Genuine (Robert Wiene)
6. Way Down East (D.W. Griffith)
7. The Last of the Mohicans (Clarence Brown/Maurice Tourneur)
8. The Ouija Board (Max Fleischer)

9. Within Our Gates (Oscar Micheaux)
10. Der Golem, wie er in die Welt kam (Paul Wegener/Carl Boese)
11. Die Spinnen, 2. Teil - Das Brillantenschiff (Fritz Lang)
12. Von morgens bis mitternachts (Karl Heiz Martin)
13. The Scarecrow (Buster Keaton)
14. The Mark of Zorro (Fred Niblo)
15. Get Out and Get Under (Hal Roach)
16. Convict 13 (Buster Keaton)
17. The Circus (Dave & Max Fleischer)
18. Kohlhiesels Töchter (Ernst Lubitsch)
19. The Penalty (Wallace Worsley)
20. High and Dizzy (Hal Roach)

URL time

Probably worthy, but needs a re-watch: Blade af Satans bog

Unseen as of yet: Algol - Tragödie der Macht; The Daughter of Dawn; Fante-Anne; The Flapper; L'homme du large; Huckleberry Finn; Klostret i Sendomir; Something New; Something to Think About; The Soul of Youth: Why Change Your Wife? and many others; pretty weak on all years prior to 1926 and didn't get around to filling in many gaps this round.

Teproc · #69

Poll is now CLOSED

I will most likely post the results tomorrow.

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Year-by-Year Polls: 1920 (CLOSED)

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