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1001 Movies You Must See

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#561

Post by OldAle1 »

Dimitris Psachos wrote: October 27th, 2021, 7:50 am Looool, out The Favorite and Birdman and Sorry to Bother You AND Handmaiden, so that Ma Rainey, Tenet, Nomadland and Vast of Night will be the honorary inclusions????

Give us a break, westernized hacks.
The list is already crammed with excessive doses of U.S. of A., almost double the size of French/British additions / Japan, on the other hand, has TOO FEW! (the fact alone that Hitchcock has 10+ films on the list is reason enough to slander it)
Hitchcock has 13 films on TSPDT also, and John Ford has 14. I'm sure the main Sight & Sound list is similar. If you want to throw out (or at least slander :lol: ) any of these big 1000-or-so greatest-films-of-all-time lists for too much American/English-language bias, I think you have to throw them all out.
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#562

Post by Onderhond »

OldAle1 wrote: October 27th, 2021, 2:00 pm Hitchcock has 13 films on TSPDT also, and John Ford has 14. I'm sure the main Sight & Sound list is similar. If you want to throw out (or at least slander :lol: ) any of these big 1000-or-so greatest-films-of-all-time lists for too much American/English-language bias, I think you have to throw them all out.
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#563

Post by Torgo »

Even this lauded 1000-top list has 14 of them Hitch's!
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#564

Post by OldAle1 »

Torgo wrote: October 27th, 2021, 3:16 pm Even this lauded 1000-top list has 14 of them Hitch's!
True, though there are some good - or at least very widely accepted - reasons why a noir list is going to be so heavily anglo-centric - the TSP list is nearly 95% American or British so it's not surprising to see Hitchcock with so many. Personally I see the anglocentrism of noir more and more as a subset of the problems with the canon in general, though I would never say that "great" or even "very good" noir is necessarily as universal as great films in general. I think noir doesn't exist without modern capitalism - so there's little that can be readily described as noir from the Soviet Union or China or Castro's Cuba - and I don't think it flourishes in really underdeveloped, impoverished countries, it requires a certain "modernity" even when it's in a period setting, so few noirs from Africa, or from Latin America outside of Mexico, Argentina and Brazil. But still, the TSP list is overfilled with second-tier American and British efforts at the expense of a lot of really great stuff from elsewhere - and this is particularly true with the more modern era, say post-1970 - that just hasn't been accepted as "true" noir yet by the tastemakers, who seem with few exceptions to still consider this a movement/genre either entirely American or always heavily America-influenced - despite the fact that it's roots are quite clearly in German Expressionism and French crime films of the 1930s (mostly by Renoir or Carne). Fuck the critics.
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#565

Post by Onderhond »

OldAle1 wrote: October 27th, 2021, 5:18 pm Fuck the critics.
We're really vibing today :D

If you want some modern, foreign noir, Limbo comes highly recommended. Mixed with a classic HK procedural of course.
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#566

Post by Teproc »

"Fuck the critics", yet I wonder how you were able to access all of this information about noir and its influences in the first place. Even if we admit the notion of film historian as separate from "critic" (I would only do so for actual historians as opposed to critics specializd in older films that call themselves historians), I assume critics played a major part in that. It's almost like "Fuck [insert group here]" is a meaningless statement.
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#567

Post by OldAle1 »

Teproc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 5:24 pm "Fuck the critics", yet I wonder how you were able to access all of this information about noir and its influences in the first place. Even if we admit the notion of film historian as separate from "critic" (I would only do so for actual historians as opposed to critics specializd in older films that call themselves historians), I assume critics played a major part in that. It's almost like "Fuck [insert group here]" is a meaningless statement.
I wasn't being particularly serious with that remark; a more accurate statement would be "fuck the hidebound critics who just accept as a given the pronouncements of the very early French critics in the late 40s who called film noir a 'new American style' when identifying films like Double Indemnity, and never move beyond that rigid and limited perspective". I have had several friends who were professional film or literary critics and I generally respect the profession, it's just that with film noir particularly there seems to be this common absolutism, that noir is precisely THIS and not THAT, and that's what I find irritating - and as it benefits a cinema (American) that doesn't really need the help, at the expense in particular of films and cinemas that are less-regarded and could use more promotion, it's actually harmful I think to broadening the discussion. Alain Silver and Elizabeth Ward's Film Noir: An Encyclopedic Reference to the American Style lays it's cards out on the table at least - this is a purely American genre, foreigners (even the English - The Third Man is not here) need not apply. That book was first published in 1979 and it's likely the first film noir book I ever bought, sometime in the 80s or 90s, and it was pretty influential. Silver and Ward allow for color noir, they allow for pre-1940 noir (going back to the silents) and they allow for modern noir, but in their minds it just has to be American. And that attitude continues today though perhaps not usually as rigidly. And I'm really glad that there are now several names - most prominently perhaps Eddie Muller - who are trying to open up the musty vaults in Mexico City and Buenos Aires and a few dozen other cities around the world, and bring some noir with a different language and flavor back into the open. TCM last weekend showed an Argentine noir from 1952 that had 4 checks before it aired, that's some progress.

So that's a long-winded way of saying that it's the critical attitude of people like Silver & Ward that needs fucking, IMO.
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#568

Post by Fergenaprido »

OldAle1 wrote: October 27th, 2021, 6:00 pm
Teproc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 5:24 pm "Fuck the critics", yet I wonder how you were able to access all of this information about noir and its influences in the first place. Even if we admit the notion of film historian as separate from "critic" (I would only do so for actual historians as opposed to critics specializd in older films that call themselves historians), I assume critics played a major part in that. It's almost like "Fuck [insert group here]" is a meaningless statement.
I wasn't being particularly serious with that remark; a more accurate statement would be "fuck the hidebound critics who just accept as a given the pronouncements of the very early French critics in the late 40s who called film noir a 'new American style' when identifying films like Double Indemnity, and never move beyond that rigid and limited perspective". I have had several friends who were professional film or literary critics and I generally respect the profession, it's just that with film noir particularly there seems to be this common absolutism, that noir is precisely THIS and not THAT, and that's what I find irritating - and as it benefits a cinema (American) that doesn't really need the help, at the expense in particular of films and cinemas that are less-regarded and could use more promotion, it's actually harmful I think to broadening the discussion. Alain Silver and Elizabeth Ward's Film Noir: An Encyclopedic Reference to the American Style lays it's cards out on the table at least - this is a purely American genre, foreigners (even the English - The Third Man is not here) need not apply. That book was first published in 1979 and it's likely the first film noir book I ever bought, sometime in the 80s or 90s, and it was pretty influential. Silver and Ward allow for color noir, they allow for pre-1940 noir (going back to the silents) and they allow for modern noir, but in their minds it just has to be American. And that attitude continues today though perhaps not usually as rigidly. And I'm really glad that there are now several names - most prominently perhaps Eddie Muller - who are trying to open up the musty vaults in Mexico City and Buenos Aires and a few dozen other cities around the world, and bring some noir with a different language and flavor back into the open. TCM last weekend showed an Argentine noir from 1952 that had 4 checks before it aired, that's some progress.

So that's a long-winded way of saying that it's the critical attitude of people like Silver & Ward that needs fucking, IMO.
One of the film clubs in KL had a month of noirs a few years ago, including a full week of programming of Latin noirs, and another of French ones, I think. I went almost every night for the Latin ones, sometimes they had two screenings a night. Some great Mexican and Argentinian films were shown, and there are some good Japanese noirs out there as well. It still perplexes me how a film genre can be considered to have ended at a certain point, unless they prefer to view film noir as a film movement and not a genre.

Which film did TCM show?
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#569

Post by OldAle1 »

Fergenaprido wrote: October 27th, 2021, 10:07 pm
One of the film clubs in KL had a month of noirs a few years ago, including a full week of programming of Latin noirs, and another of French ones, I think. I went almost every night for the Latin ones, sometimes they had two screenings a night. Some great Mexican and Argentinian films were shown, and there are some good Japanese noirs out there as well. It still perplexes me how a film genre can be considered to have ended at a certain point, unless they prefer to view film noir as a film movement and not a genre.
I have sadly seen very, very little noir - let alone foreign noir - on the big screen; there was a regular noir program at one totally out-of-the-way theater in Chicago when I lived there in the 90s, but I never went, and I don't recall specific noir programming at any of the other arthouses. Obviously some Hitchcock films played, and Welles and Kubrick, and a few others, over the dozen years that I lived there and was serious about film, but plenty of stuff like Out of the Past I never got to see, and no Japanese or Mexican noir, and probably very little British or French stuff. Sigh.

I personally am less bothered with date cut-offs than with some of the other restrictions some critics and academics put on noir; I mean, there are real stylistic differences between the films of the late 30s through the end of the 50s or early 60s (I find a cut-off for "classic" noir more useful around 1964-6 myself) and those that came out later - starting with widescreen and color, though those aren't totally missing from the classic era. More violence and sex also obviously, but the main difference to me is self-consciousness. Noir from the 60s on is aware of what it is and how it is separate from other kinds of crime/mystery stories, I think. I personally do still consider, say, Alphaville or Blade Runner or Blood Simple to be noir, but I kind of get why some people don't. In any case I prefer to think of the modern and classic versions as two distinct but similar sides of the same coin.

But in the end everybody has their own definitions; even for genres that are more clear, like musicals, people will argue definitions, and noir has never been totally clear. Which is why I have such a bug about the "America-only" attitude of some who can admit that the primary cinematic influences on the movement are European, can admit that the Great Depression and WWII - worldwide phenomena - have significant importance to the pessimism and dark side of capitalism that noir evokes, and yet somehow believe that only in America can "real" noir exist.
Which film did TCM show?
La bestia debe morir AKA The Beast Must Die (1952, based on a novel by Daniel Day Lewis' father Cecil Day Lewis, and later filmed by Claude Chabrol. A solid film though IMO not one of the greatest; Los tallos amargos (1956) which they showed in July on the other hand really is pretty terrific.
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#570

Post by Fergenaprido »

Well, don't be too jealous - my "big screen" was simply a projector on to a wall in a small upstairs room. :D

Lot tallos amargos was actually one of the films I saw there. Gave it a 7.2, but it lingers in my mind and it would be great to watch it again if it was ever restored... I imagine my opinion of it would improve.
I've seen the Chabrol version of the story... would be interesting to see the Argentinian one as well.
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#571

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Loving the noir discussion :thumbsup: Nice to see I'm not the only one who can hardly wait for November :D
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#572

Post by WalterNeff »

frbrown wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:28 pm Loving the noir discussion :thumbsup: Nice to see I'm not the only one who can hardly wait for November :D
What's this noir thing that everyone is talking about?
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#573

Post by Torgo »

WalterNeff wrote: October 28th, 2021, 2:16 am What's this noir thing that everyone is talking about?
It's the only 885 movies you have to see before you die
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#574

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WalterNeff wrote: October 28th, 2021, 2:16 am
frbrown wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:28 pm Loving the noir discussion :thumbsup: Nice to see I'm not the only one who can hardly wait for November :D
What's this noir thing that everyone is talking about?
Hard to say, but whatever it is, we know it's not just an American thing.
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#575

Post by cinephage »

Onderhond wrote: October 27th, 2021, 5:22 pm
OldAle1 wrote: October 27th, 2021, 5:18 pm Fuck the critics.
We're really vibing today :D

If you want some modern, foreign noir, Limbo comes highly recommended. Mixed with a classic HK procedural of course.
I do support the recommendation. This is a great HK neo-noir. I saw it in a cinema, and loved the Black and White cinematography as well...
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#576

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cinephage wrote: October 28th, 2021, 4:25 pm
Onderhond wrote: October 27th, 2021, 5:22 pm
OldAle1 wrote: October 27th, 2021, 5:18 pm Fuck the critics.
We're really vibing today :D

If you want some modern, foreign noir, Limbo comes highly recommended. Mixed with a classic HK procedural of course.
I do support the recommendation. This is a great HK neo-noir. I saw it in a cinema, and loved the Black and White cinematography as well...
I third that. Brilliant movie we probably saw at the very same place :lol:
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#577

Post by Caracortada »

They should have stuck with the first edition. A canon of 20th century film. These yearly updates look like random choices.
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#578

Post by cinephage »

Caracortada wrote: November 12th, 2021, 10:05 pm They should have stuck with the first edition. A canon of 20th century film. These yearly updates look like random choices.
The sales wouldn't be as good, though, as for younger viewers, the movies they are most likely to have seen (before they die) are recent one...

I agree a solid, stable, list would be more worthwhile to me as a cinephile, but as a book often offered to young movie lovers, with the intent to broaden their horizon, I feel it needs an overlap with the most recent periods in order to attract these viewers by sharing a few landmarks they are familiar with.
For a long time, I used to think I wasn't a cinephile, as older cinephiles would always discuss movies I didn't know a thing about... This can be both discouraging and frustrating. Having a few friends among these so-called must-see films is comforting and urges the young film buff to go on exploring.
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#579

Post by Teproc »

i think it's fine that they use new titles to justify newer editions, the issue is in the way they chose to remove films. Anything before 1990 is sacred and can't be touched, so they end up pillaging the 2000s to make room for 2010s film, which is just dumb. If they had a more balanced approach (they could literally just remove one per decade every year), it would be a fine mainstream list of "what films represent this list from an American perspective".
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#580

Post by Dimitris Psachos »

cinephage wrote: November 13th, 2021, 11:37 am For a long time, I used to think I wasn't a cinephile, as older cinephiles would always discuss movies I didn't know a thing about... This can be both discouraging and frustrating. Having a few friends among these so-called must-see films is comforting and urges the young film buff to go on exploring.
For what it's worth, I was originally amazed by this book BECAUSE of the pre-90s+00s content, particularly the vastness from countries I had no idea in my 17 years of age. (I realized a couple years later how anglo-americanized this list was, but that's a different context for variant conversarions)

I'll go so far to state that I was growing tired by the incessant presence of films from contemporary periods throughout my encounters with so-called "cine-fans" (then early to mid-2000s, ironically, those are going to be truly old timelines by 2040, a huge middle finger to the any individual rejecting pre-90s, older films :finger: ), which is why I felt more familiar with a cinematic spectrum beyond "comfort zones".

And if we're going to be bolder in terms of inclusion, they should commence their priorities by reshuffling older periods and add more stuff from Egypt, Brazil, Russia, Greece, ex-Yugoslavia, Philippines and extra portions of Japan, South Korea, China and Hong Kong. Oh, yes, INDIA too.
Or, sure, they could just mainstream-ize the whole deal, but let them decide already. I was hoping, though, for a bolder 1000-cinephile list for once, not mere alterations between this and TSPD or other, even worse westernized smorgasbord from Guardian, NY Times etc examples.
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#581

Post by Dolwphin »

This list don't even have any films from Nepal! God damn Western chauvinists! :verymad: :verymad: :verymad:

It does not have any films from Burundi either! :seething:
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#582

Post by Onderhond »

Dimitris Psachos wrote: November 13th, 2021, 4:35 pm I'll go so far to state that I was growing tired by the incessant presence of films from contemporary periods throughout my encounters with so-called "cine-fans" (then early to mid-2000s, ironically, those are going to be truly old timelines by 2040, a huge middle finger to the any individual rejecting pre-90s, older films :finger: ), which is why I felt more familiar with a cinematic spectrum beyond "comfort zones".
I for one hope we'll have way better films in the 2040s than we had in the 1990s. Otherwise, what a sad future to look forward to.
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#583

Post by Dimitris Psachos »

Onderhond wrote: November 13th, 2021, 6:35 pm
Dimitris Psachos wrote: November 13th, 2021, 4:35 pm I'll go so far to state that I was growing tired by the incessant presence of films from contemporary periods throughout my encounters with so-called "cine-fans" (then early to mid-2000s, ironically, those are going to be truly old timelines by 2040, a huge middle finger to the any individual rejecting pre-90s, older films :finger: ), which is why I felt more familiar with a cinematic spectrum beyond "comfort zones".
I for one hope we'll have way better films in the 2040s than we had in the 1990s. Otherwise, what a sad future to look forward to.
Future, prejudiced "cine-fans" will be shitting on anything pre-2020s -something I'm really hoping to witness-, which will prove my point that they'll be similar to the ignorant ones currently shitting anything pre-late 90s :lol:
(similar, again, to those shitting anything pre-70s and so forth)
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#584

Post by Onderhond »

As long as it all makes sense in your head.
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#585

Post by Dimitris Psachos »

^ much more sense than the one disrespecting a magnificent film decade (oblivious, of course, to ignorants :whistling: )
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#586

Post by joachimt »

User on iCM messaged me the new book has been released, so the list could be updated. Could someone point me to a reliable source of new additions and dropoffs?
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#587

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

joachimt wrote: November 21st, 2021, 7:50 pm User on iCM messaged me the new book has been released, so the list could be updated. Could someone point me to a reliable source of new additions and dropoffs?
It has not been released: https://www.amazon.com/1001-Movies-You- ... +Schneider
This title will be released on December 14, 2021.

It was supposed to have been released last month, and I'm sure some few people managed to get copies, but I have not seen a primary, or even secondary source. Every post I've seen has been "someone told me these are the additions"
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#588

Post by Verhoeven »

Still nothing?
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#589

Post by Panunzio »

I'm not sure how reliable this is, seeing as it's just a reddit thread. Nevertheless, some people seem to have determined the new additions and drop-offs for this year's edition. Is anything else needed in terms of confirmation before an update?

https://www.reddit.com/r/1001Movies/com ... sremovals/
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#590

Post by Torgo »

I don't like to be the party pooper, but the thread is 3 months old and if that's a better source than erde's from also 3 months ago I'm not sure of - especially since both sources differ in minor aspects. :down:
Reddit has (Horror of) Dracula (1958) out, while Facebook had Monos (2019) out; Facebook seems to let Blue Kite (1993) in and Reddit doesn't.

Surely there must be something credible as a source for a release so popular by now?! :unsure:
erde wrote: October 26th, 2021, 10:31 pm These are the additions and the removals in the newest edition, according to people on the book's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1001movies/

In:
The Blue Kite (1993)
The Vast Of Night (2019)
The Assistant (2019)
Rocks (2019)
Saint Maud (2019)
Tenet (2020)
Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom (2020)
Soul (2020)
Never Rarely Sometimes Always (2020)
Lovers Rock (2020)
Nomadland (2020)

Out:
Lamerica (1994)
Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance) (2014)
Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)
Handmaiden, The (2016)
13th (2016)
Blade Runner 2049 (2017)
Avengers: Infinity War (2018)
Avengers: Endgame (2019)
Hereditary (2018)
Favourite, The (2018)
Sorry to Bother You (2018)
Monos (2019)

I haven't been able to confirm these changes myself, though. Is there someone who has?
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#591

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

I'd like someone who has seen the book to post what they, themselves, have seen. Ideally I'd like images so I can double check, but while I'm willing to take an internet stranger's word on what they saw, I'm not willing to take an internet stranger's word on what some other unsourced internet stranger said.
I saw a post a few weeks ago, shortly after it was officially available, talking about additions, but they didn't reply to people asking about removals.
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#592

Post by gunnar »

One of my local libraries is supposed to have a copy on their shelves. This is the Viola Davis cover, right? If so, I'll try to stop in there tomorrow afternoon and check it out.
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#593

Post by xianjiro »

I'd rather wait for the official source. If gunnar is able to find it, I too can check the library.
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#594

Post by Torgo »

gunnar wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:58 am One of my local libraries is supposed to have a copy on their shelves. This is the Viola Davis cover, right? If so, I'll try to stop in there tomorrow afternoon and check it out.
Yep, this is the right one. :)

You could just go by the list(s) above and confirm. They 90% agree on the additions, so if you look up the removed sections and compare them as well, we're safe I say.
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#595

Post by Panunzio »

The reddit thread does mention the reintroduction of the Blue Kite, so that does seem to generally be agreed at least.
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#596

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

gunnar wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:58 am One of my local libraries is supposed to have a copy on their shelves. This is the Viola Davis cover, right? If so, I'll try to stop in there tomorrow afternoon and check it out.
thar would ve great. If you could, take pictures of the index checklist.
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#597

Post by gunnar »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:45 pm
gunnar wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:58 am One of my local libraries is supposed to have a copy on their shelves. This is the Viola Davis cover, right? If so, I'll try to stop in there tomorrow afternoon and check it out.
thar would ve great. If you could, take pictures of the index checklist.
Hopefully these are what you need:
Index photos
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#598

Post by cinewest »

They have dropped two great ones in L'america, and Birdman...
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PeacefulAnarchy
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#599

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

gunnar wrote: January 19th, 2022, 6:10 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:45 pm
gunnar wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:58 am One of my local libraries is supposed to have a copy on their shelves. This is the Viola Davis cover, right? If so, I'll try to stop in there tomorrow afternoon and check it out.
thar would ve great. If you could, take pictures of the index checklist.
Hopefully these are what you need:
Index photos
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Yes, those should be good. Thanks. I'll go through it by Friday unless someone beats me to it. I think I can do it tomorrow but not 100% sure.
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#600

Post by joachimt »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 20th, 2022, 6:38 am
gunnar wrote: January 19th, 2022, 6:10 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:45 pm
thar would ve great. If you could, take pictures of the index checklist.
Hopefully these are what you need:
Index photos
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Yes, those should be good. Thanks. I'll go through it by Friday unless someone beats me to it. I think I can do it tomorrow but not 100% sure.
I certainly can't in the coming days, so would be great if you can.
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