Experimental/Avant-Garde Challenge (Official, February 2021)

[St. Gloede]

*Film Portrait (1972, Jerome Hill)

Warning: This is not just a thread where you challenge yourselves to see as many experimental and avant-garde films as possible - it is also an experiment for your truly. That's right - this is my first ever time as a host. Any discrepancies or shortcomings should therefore be appreciated as spontaneous effects of a live, 28 days performance act.I wish you luck.

Goal
Watch as many Experimental & Avant-Garde films as you can. The lines are blurry, and if there is any leeway, they are accepted (That said, if you are unsure, just ask)

Rules:
- Each feature film (over 40 minutes) counts as one entry.
- 80 minutes of short films or miniseries/TV episodes counts as one entry.
- Rewatches are allowed and encouraged.

So ... how blurry is that line?:
- This is NOT an arthouse challenge.
- Try not to include narrative arthouse films
Example: Only Jean-Luc Godard's video and essay work would count - similarly looking to the German new wave Farocki is ok - Wenders is not.

Official Lists
Harvard University's Suggested Film Viewing List: Experimental/Avant-garde/Underground Films (2012): https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/harv ... 12/mjf314/

Forum lists
iCM forum's favorite experimental/avant-garde movies 2016: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/icm+ ... /joachimt/
iCM forum's favorite experimental/avant-garde movies 2016 (all votes): https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/icm+ ... /joachimt/
Dolwphin's Experimental Cinema: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/expe ... /dolwphin/
PdA’s Canon – experimental cinema, 2020 Edition: https://letterboxd.com/systematicer/lis ... 0-edition/

Unofficial Lists
Gwendolyn Audrey Foster's Experimental Cinema, The Film Reader: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/gwen ... r/baalman/
Georgia Institute of Technology's Experimental Film and Media: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/geor ... a/sandero/
Nicole Brenez's Cinémas d'avant-garde: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/nico ... genaprido/
The Avant-Garde Feature Film: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/the+ ... lm/mjf314/
Films voor Repetoire kennis Historische Avant Garde: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/film ... ijtluisje/

Bonus stats:
This challenge will likely see a larger number of shorts than most others, meanwhile the number of features will likely be quite low. I will therefor track the difference and see just how disparaging the numbers are. The winner in each category will also be listed at the end of the challenge.

Bonus challenge:
You are all encouraged to add your thoughs on the films you see. 1 review counts as 1 review, regardless of whether it is for a short or a feature (2+ lines qualify).

Participants

Rank	Participant	Count	Features	Shorts	Reviews
1	jdidaco	78	78	+22	-
2	jeroeno	54	21	101	-
3	Lu-Chin	33	30	13	-
4	Insomnius	21	21	+99	10
5	sol	18	18	-	18
5.5	Perception de Ambiguity	17	17	+55	8
7	klaus78	16	3	82	-
8	St. Gloede	13	13	-	13
9	Ebbywebby	10	7	13	12
9	hurluburlu	9	8	7	-
11	peeptoad	7	6	7	-
11	flavo5000	7	6	6	7
13	Dolwphin	5	2	17	2
14	maxwelldeux	4	4	-	4
15	frbrown	2	-	14	3
15	Hunziker	2	-	37	-
17	connordenney	1	1	-	-
17	mjf314	1	1	-	-
--	z	-	-	-	-

[lynchs]

I've seen these in the last days, but it's not my thing, Netflix is the NEW ORDER

1. Crede-Mi (1996, 1h)

2. Double Labyrinthe (1976, 55min)

3. L'Ange Amazonien (1992, 1h 32min)

Bärbel und Charly (1994, 34min)

villatalla (2011, 20min)

Compline (2009, 19min)

EDIT: oops starts in Feb?

[St. Gloede]

Yes, starts in Feb.

[RogerTheMovieManiac88]

Thanks and congratulations on hosting, Gloede.

I'll hope to see some eligible films throughout February. The new rule around shorts has dampened my enthusiasm just a touch for the challenges this year, but this is one of the challenges I was most eager to support and see held this year.

[lynchs]

Roger St. Gloede my bad, the same thing happened in one iCMFF4 thread

[insomnius]

In. This is what I watch regularly anyway.

[lynchs]

In. This is what I watch regularly anyway.

get out here, Netflix Binger

[sol]

Thanks for hosting, Chris. I have scoured several Experiment/Avant-Garde lists over the past few days and have come up with a decent selection of features to watch. Some though definitely seem on that blurry eligibility line, so I thought I might see what you and others think of these three, all of which are narrative movies, but all of which seem to push the envelope from what I have read about them (obviously have not seen them yet):

- The PianoTuner of EarthQuakes (2005) - part live action, part animation?

- Lady in the Lake (1946) - first feature film shot entirely from one character's POV

- Tetsuo (1989) - I dunno, but this has popped up on a few lists

What do you guys think?

[insomnius]

In. This is what I watch regularly anyway.

get out here, Netflix Binger

Isn't Netflix experimental?

[St. Gloede]

Thanks for hosting, Chris. I have scoured several Experiment/Avant-Garde lists over the past few days and have come up with a decent selection of features to watch. Some though definitely seem on that blurry eligibility line, so I thought I might see what you and others think of these three, all of which are narrative movies, but all of which seem to push the envelope from what I have read about them (obviously have not seen them yet):

- The PianoTuner of EarthQuakes (2005) - part live action, part animation?

- Lady in the Lake (1946) - first feature film shot entirely from one character's POV

- Tetsuo (1989) - I dunno, but this has popped up on a few lists

What do you guys think?

I have not seen The PianoTuner of Earthquakes, though the Quay brother are generally considered along the lines of Maddin and Svankmajer, it could be approved as a borderline case. (Would love to hear from people who have seen it).

Lady in the Lake is an interesting case in that it is undoubtedly an experiment, but at the same time us a traditional, narrative story in all respects except point of view. I would not personally count is as narrative vs. experimental/Avant-Garde are typically seen as counter poles - but anyone choosing tho count it can make a case.

Tetsuo is in the Avant-Garde/Experimental wheelhouse IMO, at the border, but a very understandable inclusion.

[lynchs]

I say no to Tetsuo (1989) despite to be creative, unique or complex! dunno about the other two.

insomnius capitalism experimental? go watch 'The Queen's Gambit' for the fifth time

[flavo5000]

Thanks for hosting, Chris. I have scoured several Experiment/Avant-Garde lists over the past few days and have come up with a decent selection of features to watch. Some though definitely seem on that blurry eligibility line, so I thought I might see what you and others think of these three, all of which are narrative movies, but all of which seem to push the envelope from what I have read about them (obviously have not seen them yet):

- The PianoTuner of EarthQuakes (2005) - part live action, part animation?

- Lady in the Lake (1946) - first feature film shot entirely from one character's POV

- Tetsuo (1989) - I dunno, but this has popped up on a few lists

What do you guys think?

I have not seen The PianoTuner of Earthquakes, though the Quay brother are generally considered along the lines of Maddin and Svankmajer, it could be approved as a borderline case. (Would love to hear from people who have seen it).

Lady in the Lake is an interesting case in that it is undoubtedly an experiment, but at the same time us a traditional, narrative story in all respects except point of view. I would not personally count is as narrative vs. experimental/Avant-Garde are typically seen as counter poles - but anyone choosing tho count it can make a case.

Tetsuo is in the Avant-Garde/Experimental wheelhouse IMO, at the border, but a very understandable inclusion.

I actually just watched PianoTuner of Earthquakes a couple days ago. I'd consider along a similar line as films like the Quays' previous Institute Benjamenta or the films of Raol Ruiz where it has this kind of fairy tale dream logic flow to it. Maybe borderline? I think the narrative is abstract enough that a case could be made.

Agree on Lady in the Lake. I don't think I'd include it personally. It is pretty much a straightforward narrative just using an experimental technique. If that counts, it opens up movies like Hardcore Harry.

Tetsuo I would definitely count. It's considered one of the most well-known avant-guarde cyberpunk films out of Japan. In fact, several (but not all) Shin'ya Tsukamoto films would count including Tetsuo 2 and Haze but not more conventional ones like Tokyo Fist, Hiruko the Goblin and Nightmare Detective.

[flavo5000]

I say no to Tetsuo (1989) despite to be creative, unique or complex! dunno about the other two.

insomnius capitalism experimental? go watch 'The Queen's Gambit' for the fifth time

If Tetsuo is a no, then that would basically remove about half of the movies on the above lists as well, leaving only films that truly have no narrative at all. Looking just at ICM's Favorite Experimental/Avant-Garde list, movies in the top twenty I'd consider less or equally experimental compared to Tetsuo include: Persona, Last Year at Marienbad, Eraserhead (which Tsukamoto has cited as a big influence on his work), My Winnipeg, Limite...

[insomnius]

insomnius capitalism experimental? go watch 'The Queen's Gambit' for the fifth time

Oh, "get out here"!


@sol
I've only seen the noir, but don't remember it well enough to be a judge.

[lynchs]

I say no to Tetsuo (1989) despite to be creative, unique or complex! dunno about the other two.

insomnius capitalism experimental? go watch 'The Queen's Gambit' for the fifth time

If Tetsuo is a no, then that would basically remove about half of the movies on the above lists as well, leaving only films that truly have no narrative at all. Looking just at ICM's Favorite Experimental/Avant-Garde list, movies in the top twenty I'd consider less or equally experimental compared to Tetsuo include: Persona, Last Year at Marienbad, Eraserhead (which Tsukamoto has cited as a big influence on his work), My Winnipeg, Limite...

I've seen Tetsuo and liked (I don't remember when, 5/6 years ago?), but you can call it an David Lynch film, it's weird? yes! but in the end you can summarize it - not Avant-Garde stuff, despite being weird, there's a narrative!

[Coryn]

How is a drill boner not experimental ???

[St. Gloede]

I think Tetsuo goes further than Lynch, and plays with form to such an extent that it supersedes the narrative. Even Wavelength technically has a plot you can summarise, so I don't think that should be the main criteria - but it is clearly a borderline case. For the purposes of simplicity, I think we should allow borderline cases.

[3eyes]

Looking at the things I've seen on the extended ICM forum favs list, there were quite a few head-scratchers (The cranes are flying, Diabolique, The battle of Algiers, etc) -- all certainly narrative films.
I gather that the missing criterion is that all were in some way groundbreaking when they were made.

[Perception de Ambiguity]

I feel honored my list is included as one of the inspirations. And it's not even an iCM list. Now I can't refuse. I'm in.
My goal: To destroy insomnius, and to spread love and positive vibes here,...serving everyone pancakes on insomnius' corpse.

[blocho]

Wait ... so is narrative the main dividing line? Chris' instructions seem to suggest it is. Are only non-narrative movies allowed?

I know this is swiftly going to move toward a debate on genre/category boundaries, which is a very tiresome discussion. But I don't see a way to avoid it.

[lynchs]

I think Tetsuo goes further than Lynch, and plays with form to such an extent that it supersedes the narrative. Even Wavelength technically has a plot you can summarise, so I don't think that should be the main criteria - but it is clearly a borderline case. For the purposes of simplicity, I think we should allow borderline cases.

Wavelength ("is a structural film of a 45-minute long zoom in on a window over a period of a week" from IMDB) it's a good example! you can make a synopsis yes, but where's the story/narrative? plot? characters? conflict? resolution?

[Onderhond]

Wavelength ("is a structural film of a 45-minute long zoom in on a window over a period of a week" from IMDB) it's a good example! you can make a synopsis yes, but where's the story/narrative? plot? characters? conflict? resolution?

I'd say murder counts as conflict.

[St. Gloede]

I think Tetsuo goes further than Lynch, and plays with form to such an extent that it supersedes the narrative. Even Wavelength technically has a plot you can summarise, so I don't think that should be the main criteria - but it is clearly a borderline case. For the purposes of simplicity, I think we should allow borderline cases.

Wavelength ("is a structural film of a 45-minute long zoom in on a window over a period of a week" from IMDB) it's a good example! you can make a synopsis yes, but where's the story/narrative? plot? characters? conflict? resolution?

Yes, it is a murder story. A person is murdered and the body is left until discovered. It is slimmer than Tetsuo, but a man turning into a machine is not much of a narrative either.

I don't think elements of narrative is a disqualified, especially with Avant-Garde in the mix. You have the clear cases, with no narrative elements what so ever, but then you have a broad grey area with experimental films with narrative elements - and from the lists above, they are frequently counted. Most would likely not discount Mekas for instance, but his films include several stories, characters and retelling. I do think including Persona and Marienbad is going too far (does anyone disagree?) but there is a long, long line from Ballet mécanique to Persona. Films like The Seashell and the Clergyman for instance is almost always included.

[Hunziker]

Edit: Not first after all. I tought today was already feb. 1st for some reason. Silly me. I'll have to restart tomorrow.

[St. Gloede]

Wait ... so is narrative the main dividing line? Chris' instructions seem to suggest it is. Are only non-narrative movies allowed?

I know this is swiftly going to move toward a debate on genre/category boundaries, which is a very tiresome discussion. But I don't see a way to avoid it.

Yes, in general narrative and experimental cinema is seen as counter poles. I.e. is it telling a story or experimenting with form?

(You can do both, and the result is often called arthouse - or new wave. Rohmer famously described the French new wave as a compromise between avant-garde and narrative/popular cinema, and this is generally true for the majority of films classified as arthouse. Experimental cinema/Avant-Garde takes this one step further. The distinction listed above is to ensure that people don't turn this into the arthouse challenge, and start watching Rivette or Tarr).

There are also variations of how Avant-Garde in particular is used. Searching for Avant-Garde films I got Gummo, Dogville, Eraserhead, etc. among the suggestions - but while an argument can be made their inclusion would seem a bit too loose.

Elements of story, narrative, etc. can be part of that experimentation, and there is a grey area. This grey area will be accepted.

I won't try to judge the films too harsh or use my own preferences however. If they are on the lists above, or a case can be made, no problem.

[hurluberlu]

I like the words from Emilie Vergé in her article about Nicole Brenez's project (list in the OP):

"[...] what brings [Experimental and Avant-Garde] together and distinguishes [them] from other films is when the filmic form transgresses or denaturalises the representative norm of dominant cinema in a socio-economical level, surpasses or reveals, at the same time, its limitation, either with or without a critical intention (simply creative or inventive in this case)."

If you stick with this, you can't be wrong.

[sol]

1. Blue (1993)



Consisting of only a blue screen with audio, this experimental movie from Derek Jarman is an oddly riveting experience as Jarman describes his own deepest fears and worries as he contends with losing his eyesight as a side effect of AIDS. In fact, it seems only fitting that a movie about a man losing his vision has no images as is the case here, and Jarman does plenty to keep things interesting with unusual sound effects and bursts of music.

[insomnius]

My goal: To destroy insomnius, and to spread love and positive vibes here,...serving everyone pancakes on insomnius' corpse.

In your dreams!

Spoiler

I won't be competitive

[sol]

Challenge as a Subversive Art

1. Blue (1993)

2. Limite (1931)



There are some remarkable shots here - most notably an extreme low camera angle that looks up at two passersby. The memory blur structure also gives the project a dreamlike quality. That said, the lack of clear-cut answers here is more frustrating than enchanting. There are only three title cards, all towards the end in a single memory sequence; this might have done better without title cards altogether. The despair here, after all, needs no words.

[St. Gloede]

I feel honored my list is included as one of the inspirations. And it's not even an iCM list. Now I can't refuse. I'm in.
My goal: To destroy insomnius, and to spread love and positive vibes here,...serving everyone pancakes on insomnius' corpse.

Really happy to have you join in!

And thank you for the list - been eyeing it for a long time, and have picked out a few films from it ahead of this challenge.

[flavo5000]

1. Blue (1993)



Consisting of only a blue screen with audio, this experimental movie from Derek Jarman is an oddly riveting experience as Jarman describes his own deepest fears and worries as he contends with losing his eyesight as a side effect of AIDS. In fact, it seems only fitting that a movie about a man losing his vision has no images as is the case here, and Jarman does plenty to keep things interesting with unusual sound effects and bursts of music.

I love that the very first film posted in the challenge is quite literally ONLY narrative.

[sol]

1. Blue (1993)

I love that the very first film posted in the challenge is quite literally ONLY narrative.

I know that you're just joking, but to anyone who has not seen it and is wondering, Blue is not a narrative movie. It is an assorted collection of various monologues, recounts and ramblings, edited together with audio effects where appropriate. Really interesting experiment in film form; it's almost the opposite of what silent movies were like before the advent of sound.

[flavo5000]

1. Blue (1993)

I love that the very first film posted in the challenge is quite literally ONLY narrative.

I know that you're just joking, but to anyone who has not seen it and is wondering, Blue is not a narrative movie. It is an assorted collection of various monologues, recounts and ramblings, edited together with audio effects where appropriate. Really interesting experiment in film form; it's almost the opposite of what silent movies were like before the advent of sound.

Yea, I'm just trolling a little. It's more like an audio essay collage than anything else.

[klaus78]

1. Masterworks of American Avant-garde Experimental Film 1920-1970 [1]
Manhatta (1921) [rewatch] 7/10
Ballet mécanique (1924) [rewatch] 8/10
Anémic cinéma (1926) 6/10
The Life and Death of 9413, a Hollywood Extra (1928) [rewatch] 6/10
Skyscraper Symphony (1929) 6/10
Mechanical Principles (1931) [rewatch] 8/10
A Bronx Morning (1931) 7/10

[Perception de Ambiguity]

༠ Ici et maintenant / Here and Now (Anno Domini 1968, Serge Bard) 6-

The tactile reality of the unseen, quiescence sans context is chaos.

༡ Perret in Frankreich und Algerien / Perret in France and Algeria (2012, Heinz Emigholz) 7

Refinement of the gaze as the eye is moved through tamed space. A study of the inhabitable properties of erectile culture, bathed in the natural sounds of their surroundings. Seeing in shape and pattern, thinking in form and space.

༢ Wheel of Ashes (1968, Peter Emmanuel Goldman) 8

samsara keeps turning

Le beau extraordinaire starring as the same sad sack of shit that I am.

puis et avant / then and before

I Ici et maintenant / Here and Now (1968, Serge Bard) 6-
II Perret in Frankreich und Algerien / Perret in France and Algeria (2012, Heinz Emigholz) 7
III Wheel of Ashes (1968, Peter Emmanuel Goldman) 8

[maxwelldeux]

1. The Five Obstructions (2003) 7/10

I was not planning on participating much, if at all, in this one, but lo and behold, the first film I grabbed for BeNeLux doesn't qualify there, but does here. So yay? Anyway...

Von Trier is hit and miss for me - Really liked Dogville, disliked Breaking the Waves, and the others of his I've seen are in the middle. I was particularly interested in this one because of the interesting concept - remaking the same short film five times with different "obstructions." The first was probably the most limiting in the physical sense - no more than 12 frames per cut, filmed in Cuba, no set, and must answer the rhetorical questions from the original short film. Leth did this, and well, creating a film with editing that added to the story. As the overall film goes on, it becomes less about the remaking of the film, and more about Leth himself and his relationship with Von Trier. Fascinating to watch.

[flavo5000]

1. The Five Obstructions (2003) 7/10

I was not planning on participating much, if at all, in this one, but lo and behold, the first film I grabbed for BeNeLux doesn't qualify there, but does here. So yay? Anyway...

Von Trier is hit and miss for me - Really liked Dogville, disliked Breaking the Waves, and the others of his I've seen are in the middle. I was particularly interested in this one because of the interesting concept - remaking the same short film five times with different "obstructions." The first was probably the most limiting in the physical sense - no more than 12 frames per cut, filmed in Cuba, no set, and must answer the rhetorical questions from the original short film. Leth did this, and well, creating a film with editing that added to the story. As the overall film goes on, it becomes less about the remaking of the film, and more about Leth himself and his relationship with Von Trier. Fascinating to watch.

This is easily one of my favorite Von Trier films. Von Trier is more openly a troll here and it generally doesn't wallow in relentlessly depressing scenarios.

[maxwelldeux]

1. The Five Obstructions (2003) 7/10

I was not planning on participating much, if at all, in this one, but lo and behold, the first film I grabbed for BeNeLux doesn't qualify there, but does here. So yay? Anyway...

Von Trier is hit and miss for me - Really liked Dogville, disliked Breaking the Waves, and the others of his I've seen are in the middle. I was particularly interested in this one because of the interesting concept - remaking the same short film five times with different "obstructions." The first was probably the most limiting in the physical sense - no more than 12 frames per cut, filmed in Cuba, no set, and must answer the rhetorical questions from the original short film. Leth did this, and well, creating a film with editing that added to the story. As the overall film goes on, it becomes less about the remaking of the film, and more about Leth himself and his relationship with Von Trier. Fascinating to watch.

This is easily one of my favorite Von Trier films. Von Trier is more openly a troll here and it generally doesn't wallow in relentlessly depressing scenarios.

Agreed - probably my second favorite of his behind Dogville. The concept is just so interesting... and fair point on the depressing scenarios.

[klaus78]

Spoiler

1. Masterworks of American Avant-garde Experimental Film 1920-1970

Manhatta (1921) [rewatch] 7/10
Ballet mécanique (1924) [rewatch] 8/10
Anémic cinéma (1926) 6/10
The Life and Death of 9413, a Hollywood Extra (1928) [rewatch] 6/10
Skyscraper Symphony (1929) 6/10
Mechanical Principles (1931) [rewatch] 8/10
A Bronx Morning (1931) 7/10

2. By Brakhage: An Anthology, Volume Two [1]
The Wonder Ring (1955) 6/10
The Dead (1960) 7/10
Two: Creeley/McClure (1965) 6/10
23rd Psalm Branch: Part I (1967) 7/10
23rd Psalm Branch: Part II (1978) 7/10

[jeroeno]

1. Diva Dolorosa (Peter Delpeut)
2. Lyrisch nitraat (Peter Delpeut)

From Dolwphin's Experimental Cinema list:

3. Double Tide (Sharon Lockhart)
4. Hatsukoi: Jigoku-hen (Susumu Hani)

5. Music of the Spheres (Jordan Belson, 10 min)
Tung (Bruce Baillie, 5 min)
Pièce touchée (Martin Arnold, 16 min)
Analogies: Studies in the Movement of Time (Peter Rose, 14 min)
Time and Tide (Peter B. Hutton, 35 min)

6. Outer Space (Peter Tscherkassky, 10 min)
Un Chien Andalou (Luis Buñuel, 16 min)
Fountain of Dreams (Jordan Belson, 12 min)
Jesus Walking on Screen (Martin Arnold, 1 min)
Allures (Jordan Belson, 8 min)
H2O (Ralph Steiner, 13 min)
Fuego en Castilla (Tactilvisión del páramo del espanto) (José Val del Omar, 20 min)