Welcome to the ICM Forum. If you have an account but have trouble logging in, or have other questions, see THIS THREAD.
500<400 (Nominations Sep 22nd)
Polls: Animation (Results), 2016 awards (Aug 25th), 1987 (Aug 25th), Benelux (Aug 30th), Knockout competition (Round 1)
Challenges: Romance, UK/Ireland, <400 Checks
Film of the Week: Hospital, September nominations (Aug 30th)

Who is the most overrated director of all time?

Who is the most overrated director of all time?

Ingmar Bergman
3
23%
Federico Fellini
10
77%
 
Total votes: 13

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

Who is the most overrated director of all time?

#1

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 8:04 am

Generally speaking, these two directors and their respective films were at one time art house hits but now, more recently, the time has caught up with their work. The vast filmography of Bergman and Fellini feel dated today (who really enjoy Fellini's surrealistic spectacles today? When you instead can watch Renoir's deeply humanistic films), and makes you wonder as to why some people insist on watching their films while neglecting the far superior and much more substantial works of Dreyer, Godard, Antonioni, Bresson, Kubrick, Welles and Buñuel - not to mention Renoir. It is a tragedy that people still insist on them being "the greatest directors". But everyone here know deep inside that Fellini and Bergman (and their comparatively narrow/repetetive thematics/mediocre mise-en-scene etc) are outmatched by other much more substantial directors.

So who is really the most overrated of them? Tough pick but, as said, any broad-minded person know they are extremely overrated and that their mise-en-scene is relatively weak.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#2

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 8:09 am

(sorry but maybe someone can move this topic to the General Film Discussion)...

User avatar
Coryn
Posts: 462
Joined: Dec 05, 2018
Contact:

#3

Post by Coryn » August 13th, 2019, 10:21 am

Bold move calling Bergman overrated here as he is currently voted Best Director in our yearly poll :lol:

For me he is extremely hit and miss but sadly more miss than hit.

Can't vouch for Fellini as I haven't seen anything by him, that is after being warned for how dull his movies are. Won't watch him anytime soon bar maybe 8 1/2.
I saved Latin, what did you ever do ?

Nathan Treadway
Donator
Posts: 3656
Joined: Jun 26, 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Contact:

#4

Post by Nathan Treadway » August 13th, 2019, 10:47 am

Image

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 2718
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#5

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2019, 11:01 am

I'd pick Bergman over Fellini, though they're definitely not the most overrated ones. Also not impressed by the alternatives offered.
I'd love to add Hitchcock and Chaplin myself.

User avatar
72allinncallme
Donator
Posts: 2409
Joined: Nov 13, 2016
Contact:

#6

Post by 72allinncallme » August 13th, 2019, 11:16 am

Bergman. No doubt. After all, the love of his life was a Norwegian. That oughta suck the creativity and originality right out of you.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#7

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 12:28 pm

Good call 71allinncallme; Norway is an auteur-free country and many forum users here have been manipulated by ignorant norwegians who think their taste is better than critic's taste (but truth is they're angry because their country lack auteurs and they know this deep inside). Hence the unhealthy obsession in 500<400 list (why just not rename it to Norwegian users favorite films?)

Is Bergman really the best voted director on these forums? Have you not read Rosenbaum or seen his essential film list? Why do you loathe his opinion so much even though you know he is right when he talks about mise-en-scene and film as an art?

Here's some extremely good articles as to why Bergman is overrated and his contempt for the film as an artistic medium: https://www.jonathanrosenbaum.net/2018/10/bergman/

https://www.jonathanrosenbaum.net/2018/ ... -comments/

^^ That's just further proof as to why Roger Ebert is nothing compared to Rosenbaum.

Rosenbaum includes over 20 films by Lang, Godard, Resnais and a good bunch from Kubrick, Hitchcock, Bresson, Bunuel etc - but only 3 Bergman films (his three best and arguably most cinematic films) and two Fellini films. This is enough of a reason as to why Bergman and Fellini both are extremely overrated. So why do the public still insist on treating these two directors and their narrow-thematic/anti-cinematic approach as the best cinema has to offer? Really, why not just explore the more substantial works of Renoir, Godard, Bresson, Dreyer, Antonioni, Buñuel instead of Bergman and Fellini?

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 2718
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#8

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2019, 12:36 pm

List Promoter wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 12:28 pm
So why do the public still insist on treating these two directors and their narrow-thematic/anti-cinematic approach as the best cinema has to offer?
Because no matter how much some people love to fight the notion, taste is subjective and the opinion of "some dude" only means so much.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#9

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 12:57 pm

That may be so.

It does not change the fact that, overall, you get much more out of a Godard and Dreyer film than one film by Bergman.

Think of this scenario: you are only allowed to bring the entire oeuvre by one certain director to a desert island. An entire filmography. We can make it easier and narrow down our list to directors only in TSPDT top 10.

Which director's filmography do you remove first? Fellini. No doubt. Then Bergman.

Who in their clearest sense of mind would bring all Bergman films instead of all films by Godard or anything by the greatest humanistic director Renoir? Generally speaking, one Godard film says about as much on reflexivity, film as an art (what you can achieve on celluloid) as 25 Bergman films. So with that in mind, bringing 3 Godard films to an island is basically as fulfilling and worthy as bringing Bergman's entire oeuvre. Bergman himself called Godard boring (or his film Masculin Feminin) but he is a theatrical director with very limited cinematic thinking and he also refused to develop his own thematics (Godard did NOT and actually still find different ways to express himself to this day).

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 2718
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#10

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2019, 1:03 pm

List Promoter wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 12:57 pm
It does not change the fact that, overall, you get much more out of a Godard and Dreyer film than one film by Bergman.
Not a fact is it? That's an opinion. It all depends on what you're looking for in a film.
List Promoter wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 12:57 pm
Who in their clearest sense of mind would bring all Bergman films instead of all films by Godard or anything by the greatest humanistic director Renoir?
People who get more out of Bergman films than they get out of Godard or Renoir. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.

Nathan Treadway
Donator
Posts: 3656
Joined: Jun 26, 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Contact:

#11

Post by Nathan Treadway » August 13th, 2019, 1:44 pm

Apples taste better than peaches.
Apples taste better than peaches.

User avatar
Coryn
Posts: 462
Joined: Dec 05, 2018
Contact:

#12

Post by Coryn » August 13th, 2019, 1:45 pm

Nathan Treadway wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 1:44 pm
Apples taste better than peaches.
Apples taste better than peaches.
Absolute psycho
I saved Latin, what did you ever do ?

User avatar
RogerTheMovieManiac88
Posts: 1231
Joined: Feb 04, 2017
Location: Westmeath, Ireland
Contact:

#13

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » August 13th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Give me 'Wild Strawberries' over Godard's entire filmography, lol.

I've only seen a handful from Godard, so I might well be being too hasty.
That's all, folks!

Nathan Treadway
Donator
Posts: 3656
Joined: Jun 26, 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Contact:

#14

Post by Nathan Treadway » August 13th, 2019, 1:55 pm

Coryn wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 1:45 pm
Nathan Treadway wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 1:44 pm
Apples taste better than peaches.
Apples taste better than peaches.
Absolute psycho
I didn't mean to post that as is. Really. It was intended to be longer. This is a troll thread, and I found just as much amusement accidentally posting that as I did with the original post.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#15

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 2:01 pm

This is by no means a troll thread but an honest attempt to address a few very annoying issues in today's cinematic circles, namely the insistance on Bergman before Dreyer, Renoir et. al. People are manipulated into thinking less of Renoir than Bergman for instance even though Renoir outshine him on every imaginable level. Woody Allen is partly to blame for this.

Who is Scandinavia's best director? It certainly ain't Bergman, but Dreyer. Period.

Not surprised that Fellini is thought of as more overrated though, because he really is. His very clownish and non-deliberate inconsistent kind of films are very outdated these days and he and Bergman should be kicked off the throne and let Godard, Dreyer, Buñuel, Ozu, Ford take their spot.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#16

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 2:05 pm

For further proof that Fellini and Bergman are overrated, please see Rosenbaum's Essential film list. After all, he is the best and most cinema-friendly critic there is (even Godard praised him) and everbody know this deep inside.

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 2718
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#17

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2019, 2:07 pm

List Promoter wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 2:01 pm
in today's cinematic circles
Clearly these circles are well stuck in the past, as we only get to choose between Dryer vs Bergman or Renoir vs Fellini.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#18

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 2:08 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88: Wild Strawberries is a decent film but is not featured on Rosenbaum's list so it's not really worthy (consists of too much allegorical baggage). Please check out any Godard film and it will broaden your view of what can be achieved on celluloid/camera and will leave you stunned for the rest of the week.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#19

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 2:10 pm

Onderhond: well, it's not like newer, ignorant, shallow, pretentious and postmodernistic directors can be compared to the greatness of the auteurs you mentioned.

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 2718
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#20

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2019, 2:12 pm

List Promoter wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 2:10 pm
Onderhond: well, it's not like newer, ignorant, shallow, pretentious and postmodernistic directors can be compared to the greatness of the auteurs you mentioned.
Man, that must suck. Believing that all the greatest films have already been made. At least I got you to admit that Bergman and Fellini are great though :D

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#21

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 2:14 pm

To clarify: they made a few great films and should be consider artists, but it does not change the fact that they are NOTHING compared to the other acclaimed directors and their respective filmography.

Nathan Treadway
Donator
Posts: 3656
Joined: Jun 26, 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Contact:

#22

Post by Nathan Treadway » August 13th, 2019, 2:14 pm

List Promoter wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 2:01 pm
This is by no means a troll thread but an honest attempt to address a few very annoying issues...
The framing of your question, and making it a poll with only two choices tells me otherwise. You're just looking for validation into your "opinion." Don't think that your post history is forgotten, and if it is, it's easy to look it up.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#23

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 2:18 pm

That may be so Nathan T, but who would you also include in the poll? Who can really suggest that Godard is less substantial than Bergman? Please elaborate.

Nathan Treadway
Donator
Posts: 3656
Joined: Jun 26, 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Contact:

#24

Post by Nathan Treadway » August 13th, 2019, 2:20 pm

You want to see something I find real funny?


blocho
Donator
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul 20, 2014
Contact:

#25

Post by blocho » August 13th, 2019, 2:24 pm

In their first days and weeks, babies can do little more than differentiate everything they encounter into two categories: me and not-me. Most babies learn to deal with this dichotomy and eventually think of their world in every more complicated categories. In other words, they grow up. A few babies make war on the concept of not-me before they too grow up. And even fewer of these babies only grow up physically but not mentally and become permanent-babies, forever infuriated at everything that is not-me.

For more, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_gustib ... isputandum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Last edited by blocho on August 13th, 2019, 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mothravka
Posts: 112
Joined: Jan 18, 2016
Location: Европа
Contact:

#26

Post by Mothravka » August 13th, 2019, 2:26 pm

There was a user on a Swedish film site that posted a thread last year about Bergman being overrated and about Jonathan Rosenbaum's favourites.

The same user rated six Bergman films 5/5 and four 4/5 on the same site.

I thought I smelled some déjà vu.

List Promoter
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct 12, 2018
Contact:

#27

Post by List Promoter » August 13th, 2019, 2:31 pm

Thanks for derailing this thread.

Fail to see what's so bad in addressing a few issues.

The result speak for itself though: the most overrated director of all time is Federico Fellini. Bergman is 2nd.

User avatar
cinephage
Donator
Posts: 3670
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Contact:

#28

Post by cinephage » August 13th, 2019, 3:30 pm

Demoting the overrated, promoting the underrated...

Image

Nathan Treadway
Donator
Posts: 3656
Joined: Jun 26, 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Contact:

#29

Post by Nathan Treadway » August 13th, 2019, 4:02 pm

List Promoter wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 2:18 pm
That may be so Nathan T, but who would you also include in the poll? Who can really suggest that Godard is less substantial than Bergman? Please elaborate.
I think you missed my point, or chose to ignore it, as I'm still unconvinced that you are looking for honest discussion, but, this question isn't really appropriate as a poll. If you were wanting actual feedback, you would've just asked instead of going through the effort of creating a poll. I'll say this, and it's probably the closest to an answer as you'll get from me in this thread, but, I'd definitely watch a Bergman film over a JLG one. Possibly even Felini. None of those three make up my "least" favorite directors, if there's such a thing.

User avatar
WalterNeff
Donator
Posts: 3045
Joined: Jul 27, 2011
Contact:

#30

Post by WalterNeff » August 13th, 2019, 5:41 pm

"The worst film noir is better than the best Godard" - WalterNeff

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 6450
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#31

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2019, 7:42 pm

Coryn wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 10:21 am
Bold move calling Bergman overrated here as he is currently voted Best Director in our yearly poll :lol:

For me he is extremely hit and miss but sadly more miss than hit.

Can't vouch for Fellini as I haven't seen anything by him, that is after being warned for how dull his movies are. Won't watch him anytime soon bar maybe 8 1/2.
I won't call myself a fan of either Fellini or Bergman, but both have offered some great films and I'd never recommend anyone to steer clear of either if they really wanted to delve into cinema. I'm surprised you didn't mention wanting to see La dolce vita (1960) though Le notti di Cabiria (1957) is my highest rated Fellini film. While I do find much of his work "overrated", I simply can't imagine not seeing it.

The other thing I'll mention, both Bergman and Fellini are known, and forgive me for paraphrasing poorly, as very personal filmmakers, especially in much of their latter work. These films are introspective and put on the screen what most would have difficulty discussing with a therapist. These are movies that aren't meant to entertain but they do shed light on the human condition.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Teproc
Posts: 217
Joined: Sep 23, 2015
Contact:

#32

Post by Teproc » August 13th, 2019, 7:54 pm

Fellini is many things, but "dull" is not one of them.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 6450
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#33

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2019, 7:57 pm

Yes, I agree the question could be worded better - Which director is more over-rated? - since others have named other directors who could easily been seen as more over-rated than these two. In addition to names already mentioned - Hitchcock, Godard, Chaplin - I might be tempted to add Ford, Scorsese, and Kubrick. And then there's Spielberg. So, if we really want to talk most over-rated, we need to expand the list.

(While I don't think so, I'm guessing some might even want to put Kurosawa on such a list. Evil. BAD. BAD!)

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Coryn
Posts: 462
Joined: Dec 05, 2018
Contact:

#34

Post by Coryn » August 13th, 2019, 7:59 pm

xianjiro wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 7:42 pm
Coryn wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 10:21 am
Bold move calling Bergman overrated here as he is currently voted Best Director in our yearly poll :lol:

For me he is extremely hit and miss but sadly more miss than hit.

Can't vouch for Fellini as I haven't seen anything by him, that is after being warned for how dull his movies are. Won't watch him anytime soon bar maybe 8 1/2.
I won't call myself a fan of either Fellini or Bergman, but both have offered some great films and I'd never recommend anyone to steer clear of either if they really wanted to delve into cinema. I'm surprised you didn't mention wanting to see La dolce vita (1960) though Le notti di Cabiria (1957) is my highest rated Fellini film. While I do find much of his work "overrated", I simply can't imagine not seeing it.

The other thing I'll mention, both Bergman and Fellini are known, and forgive me for paraphrasing poorly, as very personal filmmakers, especially in much of their latter work. These films are introspective and put on the screen what most would have difficulty discussing with a therapist. These are movies that aren't meant to entertain but they do shed light on the human condition.
I'm definitely going to watch him some day for sure. After seeing the usual favorites in my teens like Fight Club, Pulp Fiction,... I started watching Tarkovsky, Kurosawa, Bergman,... When I was 18,19 which was apparently still a tad early to compromise what I was seeing. Now at 24 I'm starting to acquire a certain taste but I'm definitely no expert or even advanced yet. That's why I like to keep myself from watching too much 'difficult' movies too quickly. I've been warned for Fellini a lot and want to make sure I go into his movies with a little knowledge otherwise it might be a lost case before even watching them.

Perfect example for this is how I absolutely couldn't finish Zerkalo when I was 18. Last year I watched Stalker aged 24 and was blown away. I then revisited Zerkalo and was amazed by it as well. It's what keeps cinema fun for me. I bet that in 10 years I'll look at these movies even in a different way.
I saved Latin, what did you ever do ?

User avatar
St. Gloede
Moderator
Posts: 9880
Joined: May 06, 2011
Contact:

#35

Post by St. Gloede » August 13th, 2019, 8:09 pm

Can we add Renoir as an option? Certainly a candidate. A bit sad that anyone could even list him next to true auteurs. Such a dull, dated and incompetent hack.

User avatar
RBG
Posts: 6107
Joined: Feb 13, 2016
Location: desert usa
Contact:

#36

Post by RBG » August 13th, 2019, 8:24 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 8:09 pm
Can we add Renoir as an option? Certainly a candidate. A bit sad that anyone could even list him next to true auteurs. Such a dull, dated and incompetent hack.
:lol:
icm + ltbxd

NO GODS NO MASTERS

User avatar
Ivan0716
Posts: 1020
Joined: Feb 05, 2012
Contact:

#37

Post by Ivan0716 » August 13th, 2019, 9:20 pm

Tarkovsky, guy only gets mad credit because he's a foreigner.

Stalker was released 2 years after Star Wars but it had NO action or special effects to speak of, worst sci-fi ever along with Solaris, which was basically some dude walking up and down a hallway for 3 hours. Mirror was just a bunch of random scenes stitched together, couldn't they afford a proper editor??? And who the fuck was Audrey Lubrev?????

Oh, also, he tried to make a film about my childhood, but I can confirm that it was COMPLETELY inaccurate.

blocho
Donator
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul 20, 2014
Contact:

#38

Post by blocho » August 13th, 2019, 9:38 pm

Ivan0716 wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 9:20 pm
Tarkovsky, guy only gets mad credit because he's a foreigner.

Stalker was released 2 years after Star Wars but it had NO action or special effects to speak of, worst sci-fi ever along with Solaris, which was basically some dude walking up and down a hallway for 3 hours. Mirror was just a bunch of random scenes stitched together, couldn't they afford a proper editor??? And who the fuck was Audrey Lubrev?????

Oh, also, he tried to make a film about my childhood, but I can confirm that it was COMPLETELY inaccurate.
Great stuff


User avatar
RedHawk10
Posts: 453
Joined: Feb 06, 2017
Contact:

#40

Post by RedHawk10 » August 14th, 2019, 12:00 am

What's a director? Is that who's in charge of the movie, like Nolan?

Post Reply