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iCM Forum's Favourite Films of the Current Decade So Far; 2019 edition; Results

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Onderhond
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Re: iCM Forum's Favourite Films of the Current Decade So Far; 2019 edition; Results

#241

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 6:05 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:37 pm
Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:34 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:33 pm
450 is more than most people can watch in a year, maybe even two, in which case you can easily by extremely adventurous.
450 in total, not per year of course.
Fair enough. :D
For reference, I've been watching films seriously for the past 16 years, and I don't even breach the top 200 films checked here (not counting the people who have gone dark), so people really have options. ;)

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#242

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 7:07 pm

Lammetje wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 4:33 pm
Lammetje wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 12:34 pm
maxwelldeux wrote:
July 6th, 2019, 11:49 pm
Apparently, I don't watch a lot of recent stuff.

Seen: 88/250; 354/3629
That's still a lot more than I have seen: 38/250 and 128/3983. Among those 128 are No Country for Old Men (2007) and Le renard et l'enfant (2007) though. :/ Who voted for those movies? And look at #3917!
So these pre-2010 movies are staying on the list then?
Thanks for the reminder I will remove those pre-2010s. Unless someone has a good argument why a movie should be included.

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#243

Post by outdoorcats » July 8th, 2019, 7:12 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:58 am
Count me as someone who watched foreign films for cultural enrichment. Especially if it's some random film on Mubi that I've never heard of before; I'm more likely to give it a go if it's from some far-off place I don't know much about and will likely never get to visit in person.
Me as well, but I'm pretty sure we're in the minority.

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#244

Post by matthewscott8 » July 8th, 2019, 7:13 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 6:00 pm
cinephage wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:12 pm
mightysparks wrote:
July 6th, 2019, 11:42 pm
Lol there is no horror mafia, there are about 5 of us. I wish there was so I would be happier with the poll results. And the tiny few of us who do exist (and happened to vote on this poll) don’t agree on everything anyway. Most of the films on my list that didn’t make it were horror or genre films. And I didn’t vote for Get Out.
I included 19 horror titles in my list, and it does look like the horror mafia has a hard time agreeing on recent horror.
Get out, It follows, La piel que habito, I saw the Devil and The Cabin in the Woods made it, though...

Too bad for The Conjuring, Kill List, Last train to Busan, Rubber, Twixt, The Woman, Citadel, or Bernard Rose's Frankenstein...

I also included I am a hero, but since I proposed it for Doubling the Canon, I've seen it wouldn't gain a lot of support from the ICM Forum members. Too bad...
I will try to support Mon Mon Monsters, by Giddens Ko, maybe it will work better...
Critically approved vs purer genre fare. (apart from Busan maybe). One group has a fairly big chance to make it, the other group is pretty much hopeless.

But yeah, horror fans are an excited bunch, but getting them to agree on things can be tough. I really liked MMM, but not enough to make my list. I don't think many others have seen it here.
How excited are y'all about Midsommar, I fair dinkum needed therapy after that one. Instant classic for me.

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#245

Post by GruesomeTwosome » July 8th, 2019, 7:25 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:13 pm
How excited are y'all about Midsommar, I fair dinkum needed therapy after that one. Instant classic for me.
I liked it a good deal, very unnerving stuff (and better than Hereditary, IMO). Though I don't think it registered quite enough for me to add it to my 2010s favorites list.
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#246

Post by maxwelldeux » July 8th, 2019, 7:32 pm

outdoorcats wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:12 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:58 am
Count me as someone who watched foreign films for cultural enrichment. Especially if it's some random film on Mubi that I've never heard of before; I'm more likely to give it a go if it's from some far-off place I don't know much about and will likely never get to visit in person.
Me as well, but I'm pretty sure we're in the minority.
Ditto here.

And speaking of MUBI, Zombies is a pretty interesting 15m watch from DRC.

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#247

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 7:40 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:07 pm
Lammetje wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 4:33 pm
Lammetje wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 12:34 pm

That's still a lot more than I have seen: 38/250 and 128/3983. Among those 128 are No Country for Old Men (2007) and Le renard et l'enfant (2007) though. :/ Who voted for those movies? And look at #3917!
So these pre-2010 movies are staying on the list then?
Thanks for the reminder I will remove those pre-2010s. Unless someone has a good argument why a movie should be included.
The deleted movies are:
#1387 No Country for Old Men (Ethan Coen, Joel Coen, 2007)
#2366 Apocalypse: La 2ème guerre mondiale [Apocalypse: The Second World War] (, 2009)
#3367 Bloody Mondays & Strawberry Pies (Coco Schrijber, 2008)
#3450[ Le renard et l'enfant (Luc Jacquet, 2007)
#3918 To Parsifal (Bruce Baillie, 1963)

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#248

Post by joachimt » July 8th, 2019, 7:45 pm

I got curious about the numbers. Cinewest says people here don't watch (or at least vote for) enough FL movies. So what percentage of each list is English? And how does cinewest do in that aspect? The best way to calculate this is manually, because of movies with multiple languages, but using an advanced search on IMDb, we can get a rough idea. I used all userlists that were made on IMDb, filtered them on English language and calculated the percentage for each user. Here are the results of 47 users:

1. RogerTheMovieManiac88 (42%, 125 titles)
2. Mate_cosido (47%, 85 titles)
3. mjf314 (47%, 92 titles)
4. perceval (51%, 100 titles)
5. wasabi (53%, 75 titles)
6. XxXApathy420XxX (55%, 124 titles)
7. Dolwphin (56%, 32 titles)
8. hurluberlu (56%, 155 titles)
9. Traveller (59%, 75 titles)
10. viktor-vaudevillain (60%, 197 titles)
11. cinewest (62%, 100 titles)
12. Wonderful Rainbow (66%, 86 titles)
13. matthewscott8 (66%, 50 titles)
14. outdoorcats (67%, 250 titles)
15. jvv (67%, 60 titles)
16. Mysterious Dude (68%, 250 titles)
17. Smoover (68%, 195 titles)
18. klaus78 (71%, 100 titles)
19. Fergenaprido (71%, 400 titles)
20. OldAle1 (72%, 200 titles)
21. Perception de Ambiguity (73%, 1234 titles)
22. St. Gloede (73%, 95 titles)
23. Jimi Antiloop (75%, 336 titles)
24. albajos (75%, 199 titles)
25. allisoncm (76%, 259 titles)
26. Carmel1379 (77%, 312 titles)
27. bal3x (77%, 105 titles)
28. RedHawk10 (77%, 30 titles)
29. ChrisReynolds (77%, 176 titles)
30. Caracortada (78%, 142 titles)
31. Lonewolf2003 (79%, 231 titles)
32. joachimt (80%, 149 titles)
33. psychotronicbeatnik (80%, 60 titles)
34. brokenface (81%, 327 titles)
35. tommy_leazaq (81%, 110 titles)
36. jeff_v (82%, 180 titles)
37. GruesomeTwosome (83%, 120 titles)
38. Good_Will_Harding (83%, 238 titles)
39. Ebbywebby (85%, 164 titles)
40. filmbantha (86%, 145 titles)
41. Gordon_Gekko (87%, 200 titles)
42. India Istanbul (88%, 16 titles)
43. 1SO (89%, 116 titles)
44. Lammetje (90%, 50 titles)
45. PeacefulAnarchy (91%, 135 titles)
46. blocho (92%, 138 titles)
47. gromit82 (97%, 70 titles)

So there are 10 users with a lower percentage of English movies than cinewest and 36 with a higher percentage. So he's partly right, but certainly not a rare exception.

Image

Speaking for myself. My movie watching over the whole history of cinema is spread out over the whole world. Sure it leans towards English language more than to others, because I've watched a lot of the canon. Apart from that my watching behavior is determined by Netflix and other streaming services. So these are the recent movies and those services tend to focus mostly on English movies. Should I seek FL movies then? Sure, but I already do that, but not just for the last decade, but for the whole history of cinema. I'm not interested in seeking out a certain recent movement. So the result is that I watch a lot more English movies from the last decade than from other decades.
Compare these numbers: I voted for 80% English movies on this poll. Among my 12,133 ratings on IMDb, 6945 are English. That's 57%, so an even lower percentage than cinewest has on this poll :P .
So do I ignore recent FL cinema? No, but English cinema falls on my lap easier. I recently took a subscription at CineMember, a Dutch streaming service which has lots of FL movies from the last decade. So cinewest might be happy about that. But it's purely an arthouse service, so Onderhond will be displeased. No matter what, there's always someone complaining. You know what? I'll just do whatever I want. I already watch about 12 movies a week (which is a LOT considering the life I lead). I'm hapy with the way I select those movies. It feels like a good diversity to me. I'm not going to try make a big study out of it to make sure I cover all countries and all niches.
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#249

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:40 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:07 pm
Lammetje wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 4:33 pm

So these pre-2010 movies are staying on the list then?
Thanks for the reminder I will remove those pre-2010s. Unless someone has a good argument why a movie should be included.
The deleted movies are:
#1387 No Country for Old Men (Ethan Coen, Joel Coen, 2007)
#2366 Apocalypse: La 2ème guerre mondiale [Apocalypse: The Second World War] (, 2009)
#3367 Bloody Mondays & Strawberry Pies (Coco Schrijber, 2008)
#3450[ Le renard et l'enfant (Luc Jacquet, 2007)
#3918 To Parsifal (Bruce Baillie, 1963)
Well they should be. But somehow the imdburls are messed up in the lower part of my excel that's why I deleted some wrong movies. And don't have the time and energy to fix that out now or these coming days. Will get back to it later.

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#250

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 7:58 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:24 pm
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:19 am

1) While I agree that many FL films are small, naturalistic tales (made on small budgets), some of the most popular EL independents on the board could be described in this way.

2) I disagree that the best contemporary FL films are not very cinematic. In fact, my attraction to them is precisely because I find them more interesting "as cinema" than most EL films these days, so maybe you are watching the wrong ones (I actually recommended a few good ones on the Amazon Prime discovery thread).

My own taste leans strongly towards movies that are creative and imaginative in their development of a "cinematic" narrative that makes use of the medium to tap into things (ideas, feelings,experiences, sensations) that not only seem fresh but unpredictable to me in the course of bringing something to life. Not a big fan of Jagten, myself, but I did like Oslo, August 31st, which I thought was very "cinematic." (65-70% of my list was FL, by the way).
1) Well, perhaps I didn't vote for many of those popular, naturalistic EL independents either. I liked "Boyhood," but not as much as many other people. I didn't swoon for Linklater's "Before" series. I didn't rank "Moonlight," "The Florida Project," "Lady Bird," "Eighth Grade" or "Nebraska" either, and I've never found a reason to become a Noah Baumbach fan. But I do like Mike Leigh.

2) That Amazon Prime thread was a bit frustrating for me, because I hoped people understood that I was asking for "free with Amazon Prime" films and not ones that require an additional charge. It was also tougher because people tended to cite the foreign-language titles rather than whatever English title Amazon uses. As a result, I've been slow to sort through the responses. I did watch "The White Meadows" and probably a couple of other suggestions by coincidence.

I skimmed through the non-English titles on your 2010s list that I haven't seen. Without going too deep into studying reviews, my hot-take instinct would be to lump them into these categories.

Absolutely: The Turin Horse (one of the 66 features in my watchlist)

Sure, I'd Watch This: Night Across the Street (I once started a thread asking for Ruiz recommendations), Nocturama (when I had Netflix, this was unwatched in my queue), Happy End (I've noticed it's on Showtime and already planned to see it), The Look of Silence (maybe the same Netflix story again)

Maybe: Once Upon a Time in Anatolia, My Joy, Jauja, Li'l Quinquin, Victoria, Certified Copy, Caesar Must Die, Men & Chicken, Winter Sleep (I think I had this in my Netflix queue too)

Maybe, But Leaning Negative: Tabu, A Touch of Sin, Home from Home: Chronicle of a Vision, In the Fog, Paradise, Leviathan, Neighboring Sounds

Not Likely: Burning, Norwegian Wood, Faust, War Witch, Elena, The Pearl Button, Pieta, Incendies, Timbuktu, Foxtrot, My Golden Days, Violent, Even the Rain, Vazante, Poetry, I Am Not Madame Bovary, Lore, Miss Baia, Black Coal Thin Ice, The Grandmaster, Los Perros, Angels Wear White, Whores' Glory, Casa Grande, Bullhead, Kubo & the Two Strings

Films I tried and quit: Zama, Graduation. Graduation is the epitome of my previously stated complaint. Really unbearable.

I'm not familiar with many of these directors, which makes my reactions harder to predict.
1) the only EL film you mention that is on my list is The Florida Project, which I thought was unique in various ways (I wouldn’t say there is a particular style that predominates in my list, but rather films I think of as distinctive in some special way)

2) The amazon prime list I recommended are all at no extra charge, at least in America

Regarding your comments on what you are likely to see from my list, I will simply point out that you “lean negative” on many very “cinematic” movies, and if there is one thing I have learned over the years, it’s that blurbs about films and what the storyline is doesn’t really have anything to do with whether the film is good or not, or whether I’ll enjoy it. It all comes down to the treatment of the “story” by the filmmaker.

Have enjoyed the back and forth dialogue
Cheers for now

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#251

Post by Teproc » July 8th, 2019, 8:05 pm

joachimt wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:45 pm
I got curious about the numbers. Cinewest says people here don't watch (or at least vote for) enough FL movies. So what percentage of each list is English? And how does cinewest do in that aspect? The best way to calculate this is manually, because of movies with multiple languages, but using an advanced search on IMDb, we can get a rough idea. I used all userlists that were made on IMDb, filtered them on English language and calculated the percentage for each user. Here are the results of 47 users:

Speaking for myself. My movie watching over the whole history of cinema is spread out over the whole world. Sure it leans towards English language more than to others, because I've watched a lot of the canon. Apart from that my watching behavior is determined by Netflix and other streaming services. So these are the recent movies and those services tend to focus mostly on English movies. Should I seek FL movies then? Sure, but I already do that, but not just for the last decade, but for the whole history of cinema. I'm not interested in seeking out a certain recent movement. So the result is that I watch a lot more English movies from the last decade than from other decades.
Compare these numbers: I voted for 80% English movies on this poll. Among my 12,133 ratings on IMDb, 6945 are English. That's 57%, so an even lower percentage than cinewest has on this poll :P .
So do I ignore recent FL cinema? No, but English cinema falls on my lap easier. I recently took a subscription at CineMember, a Dutch streaming service which has lots of FL movies from the last decade. So cinewest might be happy about that. But it's purely an arthouse service, so Onderhond will be displeased. No matter what, there's always someone complaining. You know what? I'll just do whatever I want. I already watch about 12 movies a week (which is a LOT considering the life I lead). I'm hapy with the way I select those movies. It feels like a good diversity to me. I'm not going to try make a big study out of it to make sure I cover all countries and all niches.
I looked at my own list for fun, and counted 60.3% which I do consider to be too much (I hope/expect it to go down as the years go by, as the better English-speaking films tend to make their way to me quicker than non-English ones) but would still be one of the lower percentages around here I guess. I suppose it's mostly thanks to French movies (most of my movie watching for this decade was done in French theaters) though, but I'm still surprised by that.

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#252

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 8:06 pm

@joachimt

You are missing the thrust of the conversation, and trying to make it about me and my watchlist compared to others, though if you look at my top 50 or so the % is skewed more towards FL.*

The discussion however isn’t about that, it’s about why many cinephiles here don’t really appreciate contemporary FL films, and why they didn’t do so well in this poll, despite there being a couple at the very top?

Let’s keep in mind that roughly 80 countries around the world are producing films in their native language, and English is only predominant in a few of those.

*I just looked at my top 55, and counted only 11 films made in English, with 4 more in dual languages, which even if I count as English makes 72% FL.
Last edited by cinewest on July 8th, 2019, 8:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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#253

Post by hurluberlu » July 8th, 2019, 8:10 pm

joachimt wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:45 pm
I got curious about the numbers.
SpoilerShow
Cinewest says people here don't watch (or at least vote for) enough FL movies. So what percentage of each list is English? And how does cinewest do in that aspect? The best way to calculate this is manually, because of movies with multiple languages, but using an advanced search on IMDb, we can get a rough idea. I used all userlists that were made on IMDb, filtered them on English language and calculated the percentage for each user. Here are the results of 47 users:

1. RogerTheMovieManiac88 (42%, 125 titles)
2. Mate_cosido (47%, 85 titles)
3. mjf314 (47%, 92 titles)
4. perceval (51%, 100 titles)
5. wasabi (53%, 75 titles)
6. XxXApathy420XxX (55%, 124 titles)
7. Dolwphin (56%, 32 titles)
8. hurluberlu (56%, 155 titles)
9. Traveller (59%, 75 titles)
10. viktor-vaudevillain (60%, 197 titles)
11. cinewest (62%, 100 titles)
12. Wonderful Rainbow (66%, 86 titles)
13. matthewscott8 (66%, 50 titles)
14. outdoorcats (67%, 250 titles)
15. jvv (67%, 60 titles)
16. Mysterious Dude (68%, 250 titles)
17. Smoover (68%, 195 titles)
18. klaus78 (71%, 100 titles)
19. Fergenaprido (71%, 400 titles)
20. OldAle1 (72%, 200 titles)
21. Perception de Ambiguity (73%, 1234 titles)
22. St. Gloede (73%, 95 titles)
23. Jimi Antiloop (75%, 336 titles)
24. albajos (75%, 199 titles)
25. allisoncm (76%, 259 titles)
26. Carmel1379 (77%, 312 titles)
27. bal3x (77%, 105 titles)
28. RedHawk10 (77%, 30 titles)
29. ChrisReynolds (77%, 176 titles)
30. Caracortada (78%, 142 titles)
31. Lonewolf2003 (79%, 231 titles)
32. joachimt (80%, 149 titles)
33. psychotronicbeatnik (80%, 60 titles)
34. brokenface (81%, 327 titles)
35. tommy_leazaq (81%, 110 titles)
36. jeff_v (82%, 180 titles)
37. GruesomeTwosome (83%, 120 titles)
38. Good_Will_Harding (83%, 238 titles)
39. Ebbywebby (85%, 164 titles)
40. filmbantha (86%, 145 titles)
41. Gordon_Gekko (87%, 200 titles)
42. India Istanbul (88%, 16 titles)
43. 1SO (89%, 116 titles)
44. Lammetje (90%, 50 titles)
45. PeacefulAnarchy (91%, 135 titles)
46. blocho (92%, 138 titles)
47. gromit82 (97%, 70 titles)

So there are 10 users with a lower percentage of English movies than cinewest and 36 with a higher percentage. So he's partly right, but certainly not a rare exception.

Image

Speaking for myself. My movie watching over the whole history of cinema is spread out over the whole world. Sure it leans towards English language more than to others, because I've watched a lot of the canon. Apart from that my watching behavior is determined by Netflix and other streaming services. So these are the recent movies and those services tend to focus mostly on English movies. Should I seek FL movies then? Sure, but I already do that, but not just for the last decade, but for the whole history of cinema. I'm not interested in seeking out a certain recent movement. So the result is that I watch a lot more English movies from the last decade than from other decades.
Compare these numbers: I voted for 80% English movies on this poll. Among my 12,133 ratings on IMDb, 6945 are English. That's 57%, so an even lower percentage than cinewest has on this poll :P .
So do I ignore recent FL cinema? No, but English cinema falls on my lap easier. I recently took a subscription at CineMember, a Dutch streaming service which has lots of FL movies from the last decade. So cinewest might be happy about that. But it's purely an arthouse service, so Onderhond will be displeased. No matter what, there's always someone complaining. You know what? I'll just do whatever I want. I already watch about 12 movies a week (which is a LOT considering the life I lead). I'm hapy with the way I select those movies. It feels like a good diversity to me. I'm not going to try make a big study out of it to make sure I cover all countries and all niches.
With so many non English native European around I thought we would be more in the 50s territory, 75% seems to be the average.

My stats
Movies seen: 220/250 (88%), 869/3114 (28%)
Movies I voted for: 57/250 (23%) (37% of my list of 155)
Highest movie unseen: #26 Phantom Thread
Highest favourite: #1 A Separation
Highest dislike: #81 Wild Tales
Highest (non-dislike) movie seen I didn't vote for: #3 Jagten
Position of my #1: #32 Interstellar
My highest vote that didn't make the list: #3 Faust (Sokurov)
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#254

Post by mjf314 » July 8th, 2019, 8:14 pm

joachimt wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:45 pm
The best way to calculate this is manually, because of movies with multiple languages, but using an advanced search on IMDb, we can get a rough idea.

3. mjf314 (47%, 92 titles)
I just checked my list manually, and I got 32.6% English.
(the 32.6% doesn't include the films that don't have any language)

Here are the non-English films that IMDb counted as English:
SpoilerShow
Beoning (2018)
Dabba (2013)
Ernest et Célestine (2012)
Forushande (2016)
La vie d'Adèle (2013)
L'illusionniste (2010)
Ma vie de Courgette (2016)
O-ssak-han yeon-ae (2011)
Poesía Sin Fin (2016)
Psiconautas, los niños olvidados (2015)
Tabu (I) (2012)
The Act of Killing (2012)
Un monstre à Paris (2011)
I don't try to avoid English-language films. I just watch films that seem interesting to me, or are critically acclaimed, and the majority of those films happen to be foreign.

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#255

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 8:14 pm

35/202 for me, though quite a few of those are by "foreign" directors. But FL really isn't my biggest problem with this list.

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#256

Post by joachimt » July 8th, 2019, 8:16 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:06 pm
You are missing the thrust of the conversation, and trying to make it about me and my watchlist compared to others, though if you look at my top 50 or so I think the % is different, maybe closer to 70% FL.
My main problem with your repeating complaint is that you assume lots of things without the proof to back it up.
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#257

Post by joachimt » July 8th, 2019, 8:18 pm

hurluberlu wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:10 pm
With so many non English native European around I thought we would be more in the 50s territory, 75% seems to be the average.
There are lots of movies with multiple languages, where English is a minor languages, but it is counted in my stats. So the actual percentages are lower for most of us. How much lower is hard to say.
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#258

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » July 8th, 2019, 8:18 pm

Are you saying that now it's about loving foreign films? I really hope I misunderstood this. Although that's not likely the case as you've mentioned that you'll incorporate strategic voting next year to remove American films, even if you love them.

First off, we can do some semantics. Let's look at the film The Other Side. It's based in America and is in English, yet not only does it have an Italian director, but it's an ethnographic film about the redneck culture that's foreign to the director. Is this an English or a foreign film?

I also have to mention the absurdity of strategic voting. It's like people using quotas when it comes to hiring people. Yes, there is discrimination against minorities when it comes to hiring, just like there's discrimination when it comes to people watching American films instead. However, placing quotas is just as silly. Not only can you potentially hire worse people, or having film rankings for films that don't deserve it in your eyes, but it results in tokenism, which comes across as very silly in my book. It gives the appearance of variety, but it's actually not the case. Just rank your 10th favourite film of the decade as #10, and who gives a fuck where it came from. On top of that, you can't say that what I'm doing lacks variety from different countries, or that discriminate against other cultures. I have more foreign films on my list than yours for example, and a higher percentage. In fact, I looked at my top 50 and it's 50% foreign. It could be even more if you count a silent film made from Quebec as foreign.

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#259

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 9:00 pm

joachimt wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:16 pm
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:06 pm
You are missing the thrust of the conversation, and trying to make it about me and my watchlist compared to others, though if you look at my top 50 or so I think the % is different, maybe closer to 70% FL.
My main problem with your repeating complaint is that you assume lots of things without the proof to back it up.
You just showed me proof with your stat sheet, and admitted that your own contemporary FL favorites are fewer than your classic FL favorites, even though many more different countries are producing films today than they were in the 50's and 60's, and I don't really care what you are anyone else prefer, but am trying to explore the reasons for those preferences.

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#260

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 9:12 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:06 pm
@joachimt

You are missing the thrust of the conversation, and trying to make it about me and my watchlist compared to others, though if you look at my top 50 or so the % is skewed more towards FL.*

The discussion however isn’t about that, it’s about why many cinephiles here don’t really appreciate contemporary FL films, and why they didn’t do so well in this poll, despite there being a couple at the very top?

Let’s keep in mind that roughly 80 countries around the world are producing films in their native language, and English is only predominant in a few of those.

*I just looked at my top 55, and counted only 11 films made in English, with 4 more in dual languages, which even if I count as English makes 72% FL.
The point is that you jump to a very quick conclusion from less FL movies being to people here having no interest and not appreciating contemporary FL films. While it's more nuanced than that. Most here do have interest and appreciate contemporary FL films (or at least don't have a bias against them), but for various (practical) reasons people watch less of those or not as much the same ones as English language ones, which results for various reasons in FL movies doing less well in this poll.
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#261

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 9:13 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:18 pm
Are you saying that now it's about loving foreign films? I really hope I misunderstood this. Although that's not likely the case as you've mentioned that you'll incorporate strategic voting next year to remove American films, even if you love them.

First off, we can do some semantics. Let's look at the film The Other Side. It's based in America and is in English, yet not only does it have an Italian director, but it's an ethnographic film about the redneck culture that's foreign to the director. Is this an English or a foreign film?

I also have to mention the absurdity of strategic voting. It's like people using quotas when it comes to hiring people. Yes, there is discrimination against minorities when it comes to hiring, just like there's discrimination when it comes to people watching American films instead. However, placing quotas is just as silly. Not only can you potentially hire worse people, or having film rankings for films that don't deserve it in your eyes, but it results in tokenism, which comes across as very silly in my book. It gives the appearance of variety, but it's actually not the case. Just rank your 10th favourite film of the decade as #10, and who gives a fuck where it came from. On top of that, you can't say that what I'm doing lacks variety from different countries, or that discriminate against other cultures. I have more foreign films on my list than yours for example, and a higher percentage. In fact, I looked at my top 50 and it's 50% foreign. It could be even more if you count a silent film made from Quebec as foreign.
Your second paragraph poses an interesting question.

As for "strategic voting," I was partially joking when I made that comment, though you brought up exactly the reason why I might elect to do so when you spoke about discrimination. No, not the kind that is driven by overt prejudice, but the kind enforced by a pervasive cultural dominance that provides no space for diversity except in "tokenism."

Still, I imagine there are some folks here who simply refuse to list "popular" films because they want to showcase esoterica which is also marginalized in polls like these, or maybe "esoterica" is what they look for in a movie or a list?

The conversation I am trying to have isn't about my list or your list, per se, and I could;t care less if you have more or fewer FL films on your list.
Last edited by cinewest on July 8th, 2019, 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#262

Post by flaiky » July 8th, 2019, 9:13 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:03 pm
It’s too bad that my questions seem to meet with defensiveness by some.

I have raised a discussion point that grew out of a conversation between Ebbywebby and myself based on something he said that isn’t about what is or isn’t on my list, but about the list generated by 80 or so participants. I have only referred to my own list as a counter example that I am familiar with (if I miscalculated the comparison it was lack of enough care on my part) and in answer to a poster’s attack upon it.
You were saying similar things before you asked Ebby that question. You may not see yourself as complaining but yes, it comes across that way when you constantly make negative comments without any recognition of the positives - despite the fact that your favourites did very well in this poll (which is why your list is relevant as a counter to your complaints).
why contemporary FL films tend to generate such little interest
Yeah but that isn't true, and it's annoyingly undermining.
At the same time, there appears to be cultish approval of certain filmmakers who work in English, and have scored with multiple titles fairly high up.
So? You seem to be pretty anti-English films, which is just as ridiculous as being anti-foreign language IMO. And the popular directors that I've seen you complain about, such as Wes Anderson and David Lynch, have fully distinctive and creative approaches to cinema. They may not work for you, but don't keep suggesting that people only watch uninspired stuff. (Anderson and Lynch count as pretty mainstream these days, but only because they are so good at what they do)
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#263

Post by mjf314 » July 8th, 2019, 9:16 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:00 pm
You just showed me proof with your stat sheet, and admitted that your own contemporary FL favorites are fewer than your classic FL favorites, even though many more different countries are producing films today than they were in the 50's and 60's, and I don't really care what you are anyone else prefer, but am trying to explore the reasons for those preferences.
Maybe people are watching older non-English-language films because they're on official lists, but when it comes to recent films, they watch whatever films are available in cinemas or streaming websites, or whatever films have been advertised the most, and most of those films are English-language.

It also depends on where you live. I live in New York, which has several cinemas that regularly show non-English-language films, but in some other places, the situation isn't as good.

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#264

Post by flaiky » July 8th, 2019, 9:18 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:13 pm
The conversation I am trying to have isn't about my list or your list, per se, and I could;t care less if you have more or fewer FL films on your list.
But you look hypocritical when you keep saying "No-one else appreciates foreign language films enough!!" when your own ballot seems to have a similar proportion to many other voters.
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#265

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 9:20 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:00 pm
Your own contemporary FL favorites are fewer than your classic FL favorites, even though many more different countries are producing films today than they were in the 50's and 60's, and I don't really care what you are anyone else prefer, but am trying to explore the reasons for those preferences.
I think I have the answer to this question:
SpoilerShow
Image
Yes, a little depressing.
SpoilerShow
More options and more variety do not seem to help. The reason why there used to solid competition for the US was quite likely because there was solid competition for the US - on an indivisual country basis. Concentrated and expansive cinema cultures people could explore in a comprehensive manner - and which, at least seemed to, offer an alternative.

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#266

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 9:46 pm

flaiky wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:18 pm
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:13 pm
The conversation I am trying to have isn't about my list or your list, per se, and I could;t care less if you have more or fewer FL films on your list.
But you look hypocritical when you keep saying "No-one else appreciates foreign language films enough!!" when your own ballot seems to have a similar proportion to many other voters.
OK, you are starting to annoy me now, and not because you are "complaining" about me or disagreeing, but because you \haven't read what I've written clearly and are misrepresenting me.You and Joachim also miscalculated the percentages, as I pointed out in a response to Joachim above, and this does;t really have very much to do with my point any ways.

This post is a good example: Where did I ever say "No one else appreciates FL films enough!?"

What I have asked is why "many" here don't seem to appreciate "contemporary" FL films, and I suggest you go back to the initial conversation I had with ebbywebby and reread the thread, and see if you can spot how many times some posters are twisting what I say to fit whatever they are defensive or annoyed about.
Last edited by cinewest on July 8th, 2019, 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#267

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 9:47 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:20 pm
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:00 pm
Your own contemporary FL favorites are fewer than your classic FL favorites, even though many more different countries are producing films today than they were in the 50's and 60's, and I don't really care what you are anyone else prefer, but am trying to explore the reasons for those preferences.
I think I have the answer to this question:
SpoilerShow
Image
Yes, a little depressing.
SpoilerShow
More options and more variety do not seem to help. The reason why there used to solid competition for the US was quite likely because there was solid competition for the US - on an indivisual country basis. Concentrated and expansive cinema cultures people could explore in a comprehensive manner - and which, at least seemed to, offer an alternative.
Yes, I think you are onto something, here.

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#268

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 9:49 pm

mjf314 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:16 pm
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:00 pm
You just showed me proof with your stat sheet, and admitted that your own contemporary FL favorites are fewer than your classic FL favorites, even though many more different countries are producing films today than they were in the 50's and 60's, and I don't really care what you are anyone else prefer, but am trying to explore the reasons for those preferences.
Maybe people are watching older non-English-language films because they're on official lists, but when it comes to recent films, they watch whatever films are available in cinemas or streaming websites, or whatever films have been advertised the most, and most of those films are English-language.

It also depends on where you live. I live in New York, which has several cinemas that regularly show non-English-language films, but in some other places, the situation isn't as good.
Another comment that' I think is on point.

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#269

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 9:55 pm

While I think the relatively poor showing of non-english language films is explained by lack of exposure (compared to availability, word of mouth and cultural relevance of English language films) and overlapping viewings, it is interesting to see just how aggressively our lists lean towards English language cinema. As Mjf pointed out it is not too accurate, but in the age of world cinema it should serve as a wake-up call (of sorts).

A reason I brought up in a previous thread, maybe two years ago, when more or less the same discussion came up, was that non-English hanguage films tend to be delayed by 1-2 years, which, outside of availability/notoriety, would give "foreign films" a dent in any active decade. While this is accurate, and my list has moved from about 30% to 44%, this was surprisingly picked up by later years, as opposed to earlier years being correcting. Surprisingly the first few years of the decade lean far more heavily towards English language films, and I'm not quite sure why. May be arbitrary chance, though I do have some key vieweing I need to get to! (This last note doesn't really have a point as much as a question mark).

Edit: mjf is on point. The lack of clear authoritative sources establishing a cannon will hurt non-English, and especially films outside of the key film nations the most.

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#270

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 10:04 pm

flaiky wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:13 pm
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:03 pm
It’s too bad that my questions seem to meet with defensiveness by some.

I have raised a discussion point that grew out of a conversation between Ebbywebby and myself based on something he said that isn’t about what is or isn’t on my list, but about the list generated by 80 or so participants. I have only referred to my own list as a counter example that I am familiar with (if I miscalculated the comparison it was lack of enough care on my part) and in answer to a poster’s attack upon it.
You were saying similar things before you asked Ebby that question. You may not see yourself as complaining but yes, it comes across that way when you constantly make negative comments without any recognition of the positives - despite the fact that your favourites did very well in this poll (which is why your list is relevant as a counter to your complaints).
why contemporary FL films tend to generate such little interest
Yeah but that isn't true, and it's annoyingly undermining.
At the same time, there appears to be cultish approval of certain filmmakers who work in English, and have scored with multiple titles fairly high up.
So? You seem to be pretty anti-English films, which is just as ridiculous as being anti-foreign language IMO. And the popular directors that I've seen you complain about, such as Wes Anderson and David Lynch, have fully distinctive and creative approaches to cinema. They may not work for you, but don't keep suggesting that people only watch uninspired stuff. (Anderson and Lynch count as pretty mainstream these days, but only because they are so good at what they do)
1) You must miss the positive comments I make, though throughout this conversation / discussion, I have tried avoid negativity and keep it about investigation and analysis, even as others have responded to me with negativity.

2) Joachim just posted stats that prove contemporary FL films are not popular in comparison with EL films, or even FL films of the past

3) Another misrepresentation of my position as well as on things I have said in the past. I have nothing against EL films, though I admit to being somewhat bored by mainstream cinema. I don't remember complaining about David Lynch though I think that the adoration is over the top, and don't think that he towers over contemporary film. As for Wes Anderson, I like him (even have 2 of his films on my list this time around), and my complaint once again had to do with what I think is over the top adoration comparative to the work of other contemporary filmmakers.

No doubt you will misinterpret these comments, as well, and I should probably give up trying to be your friend. I have actually enjoyed reading many of the things you have posted, and have even said as much on various occasions in the past, though you haven't answered those comments.

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#271

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 10:06 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:55 pm
While I think the relatively poor showing of non-english language films is explained by lack of exposure (compared to availability, word of mouth and cultural relevance of English language films) and overlapping viewings, it is interesting to see just how aggressively our lists lean towards English language cinema. As Mjf pointed out it is not too accurate, but in the age of world cinema it should serve as a wake-up call (of sorts).

A reason I brought up in a previous thread, maybe two years ago, when more or less the same discussion came up, was that non-English hanguage films tend to be delayed by 1-2 years, which, outside of availability/notoriety, would give "foreign films" a dent in any active decade. While this is accurate, and my list has moved from about 30% to 44%, this was surprisingly picked up by later years, as opposed to earlier years being correcting. Surprisingly the first few years of the decade lean far more heavily towards English language films, and I'm not quite sure why. May be arbitrary chance, though I do have some key vieweing I need to get to! (This last note doesn't really have a point as much as a question mark).

Edit: mjf is on point. The lack of clear authoritative sources establishing a cannon will hurt non-English, and especially films outside of the key film nations the most.
Yes, I think these things play a part.

As for stellar years: 2011 was an amazing one for me, especially for foreign films, but also for EL ones.

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#272

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 10:20 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:12 pm
but for various (practical) reasons people watch less of those
It's never been so easy to find and watch films, EL & FL, so if there's a reason it's probably just laziness or lack of interest.

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#273

Post by Ivan0716 » July 8th, 2019, 10:25 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 4:40 pm
Well, I didn't much like Manchester by the Sea and Frances Ha, and I haven't even bothered to see Lion, so.... I don't think I'd put Three Billboards in this category, though -- a film with a lot of interwoven stories and a certain scope....

And I liked Room a lot more than expected, so that was an observed exception.
My point is your criticism shouldn't limited to foreign-language films, those films were just examples.

--

By the way, I don't really understand why you guys are trying to draw such a clear distinction between "English" and "Non-English" films. I mean, there are film industries in certain countries that interests me more than others, but dividing films into those two camps seems pretty silly to me.

Do films get bonus points for simply not being in English? Do we get more film-buff cred by including more FL films in our submissions? (After a rough count mine's 77/128 non-English, what's my prize?)

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#274

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 10:45 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 10:20 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:12 pm
but for various (practical) reasons people watch less of those
It's never been so easy to find and watch films, EL & FL, so if there's a reason it's probably just laziness or lack of interest.
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#275

Post by ChrisReynolds » July 9th, 2019, 12:31 am

GruesomeTwosome wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:25 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:13 pm
How excited are y'all about Midsommar, I fair dinkum needed therapy after that one. Instant classic for me.
I liked it a good deal, very unnerving stuff (and better than Hereditary, IMO). Though I don't think it registered quite enough for me to add it to my 2010s favorites list.
I saw it earlier this evening. Very interesting, and Ari Aster is an exciting new talent in the horror landscape, but I didn't like it as much as Hereditary. It had fantastic horror imagery, but until the last act headed into weird new territory it was too familiar and it also felt like at some point the characters transitioned from realistic to stereotypical horror movie victims who do dumb things so they can be isolated and killed.

With regards to the foreign movie discussion, a lot of the problem is access to them. When I watch a modern movie it will usually be via Netflix or buying second-hand DVDs at a Computer Exchange shop. The selection of foreign movies tends to be poor, but I expect my list will balance out as the years go by and I catch up on everything. Hollywood has been the world centre for filmmaking for the last century, so draws in most of the world filmmaking talent. I generally make the assumption that a good quality top list will have an equal balance between American and non-American films, though that varies across time and genre.

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#276

Post by Ebbywebby » July 9th, 2019, 2:24 am

Ivan0716 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 10:25 pm
Ebbywebby wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 4:40 pm
Well, I didn't much like Manchester by the Sea and Frances Ha, and I haven't even bothered to see Lion, so.... I don't think I'd put Three Billboards in this category, though -- a film with a lot of interwoven stories and a certain scope....

And I liked Room a lot more than expected, so that was an observed exception.
My point is your criticism shouldn't be limited to foreign-language films
Well, I don't think it is. But the case of non-English films is more frustrating because, in the past, foreign films were often a more adventurous, experimental alternative to the mainstream movies of America/Canada/UK that had polished, professional filmmaking but typically didn't push the envelope much. Nowadays, a lot of foreign films feel leaner and more story-based than in the past, and the contrast is noticeable. Another personal factor for me may be that the "little" foreign films tend to aim for the heart more. The sympathy you feel for this beleaguered child in this poor village. The pauper trying to get money to buy a cow. That's not so appealing to me -- my blood runs a bit colder. Jim Jarmusch films aren't about making you go "awww." I like a bit of austerity and detachment. Generally speaking.

"A Ghost Story" -- now that was my sort of indie film. An indifferent Redbox grab that turned out to be a great surprise.

I'm probably seeing "Midsommar" tomorrow night, but it's definitely the girlfriend's pick rather than mine. It initially sounded interesting to me ("Wicker Man"-esque?), but then I discovered it was by the "Hereditary" director and winced.

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#277

Post by Coryn » July 9th, 2019, 3:40 am

Just my 2 cents.

I think the list is awesome. If you'd ask 100 random people on the street to make a list the top would look different and most likely a lot worse. Of course there will be some movies which will end higher up because they simply have been seen by more people. Could it be an option to make a top list and bottom list? Problem then is that people will change their vote to more extreme measures to affect the end result of a certain film.

Another option is a ratings list like Joahhim showed here. (still wondering where this list is made and if it's updated somewhere?)

As to if we rate fl films lower than el films. I don't really think so, at least not for my part. In fact, some films that should have a foreign language but did get the English language, I would rate less. (for example English language in an Auschwitz camp)
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#278

Post by joachimt » July 9th, 2019, 5:09 am

@cinewest:

1. I gave you proof for your point? Not exactly. It shows that almost everyone's ballot contained more than 50% English movies. That includes your list, so can you please explain why you don't explore FL cinema more? That's a cynical joke of course, but I mean to say you don't stick out as a really different list from the rest. You on the FL side of my stats, but not extremely. When I look at your top 50, I mostly see usual suspects, with a few personal choices, just like lots of other users have.

2. You want to explore the reasons why people don't explore FL cinema? First of all, you assume people don't, which is a bad assumption, unless you provide stats of the check history of all users to back this up. And when people give you reasons for watching more English movies than FL, you are never satisfied with those reasons. I gave you mine. There's no conspiracy against FL cinema. It's just the way things go.

3. What did I miscalculate? I did state that the percentages are lower in fact, but the numbers give you a rough idea. So your list actually contains less English movies than the IMDb advanced search results in? Sure. But that goes for all of us.
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#279

Post by Opio » July 9th, 2019, 5:20 am

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:13 pm
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:18 pm
...I also have to mention the absurdity of strategic voting. It's like people using quotas when it comes to hiring people. Yes, there is discrimination against minorities when it comes to hiring, just like there's discrimination when it comes to people watching American films instead. However, placing quotas is just as silly. Not only can you potentially hire worse people, or having film rankings for films that don't deserve it in your eyes, but it results in tokenism, which comes across as very silly in my book. It gives the appearance of variety, but it's actually not the case. Just rank your 10th favourite film of the decade as #10, and who gives a fuck where it came from....
...As for "strategic voting," I was partially joking when I made that comment, though you brought up exactly the reason why I might elect to do so when you spoke about discrimination. No, not the kind that is driven by overt prejudice, but the kind enforced by a pervasive cultural dominance that provides no space for diversity except in "tokenism."
But wouldn't a forced diversity list (purely based on non-English language origin, I assume) raise questions about whether these movies are really that good, or whether they're just being added for "diversity"?

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#280

Post by Onderhond » July 9th, 2019, 5:42 am

Weighing votes or favoring certain types of films is definitely a bad idea. If the taste of a community isn't very diverse, the list should just reflect that.
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