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Managers Cup, Match 1D: pitchorneirda vs 72aicm vs Armoreska (Oct 24th)

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Managers Cup, Match 1D: pitchorneirda vs 72aicm vs Armoreska (Oct 24th)

#1

Post by joachimt »

This is match 1D of iCM Forum's Managers Cup.

Original TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
A Prayer Before Dawn2017pitchorneirdalinklink
The Art of Flying201572aicmlinklink
Carnage: Swallowing the Past2017Armoreskalinklink

Screenshots
A Prayer Before Dawn
Image

The Art of Flying
Image

Carnage: Swallowing the Past
Image
Voting Rules:
- You must watch all 3 films before you vote.
- To vote, rank the 3 films from most favorite to least favorite.

Voting deadline = Oct 24th
Countdown till deadline

The manager that ends at 1st place proceeds to the next round. The ranking of the match will be decided using these rules:
- Ranked by highest average ranking (= lowest number).
- In case of a tie between two movies, head-to-head determines the winner (how many people thought A>B and how many thought B>A).
- In case there's still a tie after the previous rule or there is a tie between three movies, most #1-votes determines the winner.
- Still a tie? Fewest #3-votes determines the winner.
- Still a tie? The match will have a 3 day extension.
- The best two #2-movies (based on average ranking) proceed to the 2nd round as well.
Here's a quick summary of how the tournament works
We start with 18 movies selected by 18 managers. In the first round the movies are divided into 6 groups of 3. From each group the countries that end up at #1 proceed to the next round. The two best #2's proceed as well. In the 2nd round the 8 remaining managers will be divided into 8 matches of 2 and they pick a new movie. The winner of each match proceeds to the next round. This continues till the final.
Rules for picking movies:
- Less than 1000 checks on iCM in round 1. Quarter finals: … checks. Semi finals: … checks. Final: … checks.
- Maximum runtime 180 min.
- No movies that have previously been selected for the World Cup.
- Not multiple movies by the same director.
- If two managers pick the same movie, the one who picked first gets it.
iCM-list of all movies in this Managers Cup

List of all topics related to the Managers Cup including previous seasons of the World Cup
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#2

Post by joachimt »

A Prayer Before Dawn is on Netflix here.
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#3

Post by 72aicm »

1. The Art of Flying
2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past
3. A Prayer Before Dawn
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#4

Post by Armoreska »

this is where ive already seen all. weird match, i have no idea how to rank the other two, they're too different, so I'll settle on ranking the longie first. I hope it doesnt come back to bite me in the end. please take away my ability to rerank them. tehe

Carnage comes from this custom challenge
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5418&view=unread#unread

Carnage 8+
Prayer Before Dawn 6
The Art of Flying 7
he or A. or Armo or any

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and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#5

Post by pitchorneirda »

1. A Prayer Before Dawn
2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past
3. The Art of Flying

About The Art of Flying, I love birds murmurations and understand the praise for such shorts but I think the camera work is subpar and the editing questionable. I probably loved The Art of Flying more than Carnage, but there's so much more wit in the latter
"Art is like a fire, it is born from the very thing it burns" - Jean-Luc Godard
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#6

Post by joachimt »

So the first three voters are the three managers in this match. It's weird The Art of Flying get two #3 votes, even though Armoreska rates it higher than #2 and pitch says he probably loves it more than #2. iCMers and rankings...... :wacko:
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#7

Post by mightysparks »

1. Carnage: Swallowing the Past 6/10
2. A Prayer Before Dawn 6/10
3. The Art of Flying 6/10

Liked all of these, all offered something a little different but I had the most fun with Carnage.
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#8

Post by russa03 »

1. The Art of Flying
2. A Prayer Before Dawn
3. Carnage: Swallowing the Past

Easily the best and weakest of the tournament with the other firmly in the middle.
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#9

Post by shugs »

1. A Prayer Before Dawn - 7/10
2. The Art of Flying - 6/10
3. Carnage: Swallowing the Past - 4/10
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#10

Post by 72aicm »

russa03 wrote: October 3rd, 2021, 6:57 pm Easily the best and weakest of the tournament with the other firmly in the middle.
Nice! Glad you liked it russa! :cheers:
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#11

Post by filmbantha »

Another very diverse selection of films that are pretty tough to compare!

1. A Prayer Before Dawn - 6/10 a striking prison/boxing film with an impressive central performance from Joe Cole. One downside to this gripping true story is that I found it difficult to empathise with the protagonist's struggle; despite a solid performance from Cole the film lacked an emotional punch.

2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past - 6/10 these comedy mockumentaries are usually a big hit for me and my friends so I'm surprised this one slipped past us. I can imagine a lot of humour gets lost in translation for those who are not based in the UK but I found this to be pretty amusing satire with an important message. It pales in comparison to the likes of Brasseye and Time Trumpet yet I still had plenty of fun with it and it offers a lot of (vegan) food for thought.

3. The Art of Flying - 5/10 I can appreciate the beauty and the mystery surrounding the flight patterns of birds yet I found this fairly forgettable - I can see why people might be taken with it but I think I'm the wrong audience for these kind of short films.

Thanks to all managers for another good round :thumbsup:
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#12

Post by Onderhond »

A Prayer Before Dawn is the first film that felt remotely like something I'd seek out myself. The Art of Flying had potential but the execution wasn't quite there. I went with Prayer as the winner because I prefer feature films over shorts. Carnage is a decent joke that runs out of steam halfway through.

1. 3.0* - A Prayer Before Dawn
Spoiler
A foreign prison drama with strong action and crime elements. The setup isn't too original, and the film is more than happy to indulge in all the inhuman practices that typically go along with foreign prison stories, but Sauvaire's more than decent stylistic choices make sure it's more than a weepy-eyed drama. Billy Moore is a British citizen who ends up in one of Thailand's most infamous prisons. His drug addiction complicates his life there, and he has trouble fitting in, but his former boxing experience offers him a way out. He joins the Muay Thai club and is allowed to fight for his freedom. Raw and gritty are the keyword here, and Sauvaire manages to translate that rather adequately through intense camera work and a brooding score. The performances are solid too, the biggest problem is that there isn't really enough material to fill two hours of film. The middle is a bit long in the tooth and the finale lacks punch. Other than that, a pretty nice discovery.
2. 3.0* - The Art of Flying
Spoiler
You can't watch a nature doc these days without seeing at least a couple of shots of bird swarms, but I appreciated Van Ijken's attempt to mix it with some stark minimalism. It works up until a certain point, though I feel the execution isn't quite there yet. The cold black and white cinematography fit well, but the somewhat crude editing and camera movements were jarring. Van Ijken also doesn't seem to do much beyond capturing the swarms, some extra visual refinement or a nice soundtrack mix could've eleveted the film. Not quite as tranfixing as it was surely meant to be, but at least it was a million times better than most official shorts I've seen.
3. 2.0* - Carnage: Swallowing the Past
Spoiler
A rather novel way to try and push the vegan message. Instead of making a whiney documentary, comedian Simon Amstell made a jolly mockumentary. It's certainly a lot easier to sit through, though ultimately it does come down to the same thing, especially during the second half, when the comedy starts to dwindle. The film imagines a near-distant future where everybody is vegan. The elderly are ashamed of their carnivore past, young people can't fathom that people used to kill and eat animals. A history of veganism takes us back and shows how the people of the past became more receptive to the idea, ultimately switching around completely. I love deprecating comedy, but Amstell's attempts feel rather forced and not at all genuine. The first half has some decent jokes, but it becomes repetitive real fast and by the time the second half kicks off, the entertainment value has dropped below zero. That might've been the point, but since Amstell fails to make any original arguments, I didn't care for the second half at all. In the end, this felt a bit half-arsed, but bonus points for trying something new.
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#13

Post by joachimt »

1. The Art of Flying 8/10
2. A Prayer Before Dawn 7/10
3. Carnage: Swallowing the Past 7/10
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#14

Post by Smoover »

2. A Prayer Before Dawn 7/10
2. The Art of Flying 6/10
3. Carnage: Swallowing the Past 5/10
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#15

Post by Mario Gaborović »

1. The Art of Flying
2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past
3. A Prayer Before Dawn
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#16

Post by klaus78 »

1. A Prayer Before Dawn 6/10
2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past 6/10
3. The Art of Flying 6/10
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#17

Post by joachimt »

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#18

Post by sol »

Another round with nothing that I disliked. :) No new favourites either, but congrats to 72aicm for selecting the film that I liked the most. What lovely hypnotic images. Also, many thanks to Armoreska and pitchorneirda for enticing me to check out films that I would not have otherwise made a priority.

1. The Art of Flying https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlankSpecific ... ricted.gif
2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past https://letterboxd.com/solh/film/carnag ... -the-past/
3. A Prayer Before Dawn https://letterboxd.com/solh/film/a-prayer-before-dawn/
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#19

Post by Teproc »

Carnage: Swallowing the Past (Simon Amstell, 2017)
Spoiler
A piece of agitprop that has some interest beyond its message because of some inspired satirical bits and a general self-reflexiveness about the impossiblity of making a film with such a radical message palatable to audiences. I would probably like this more if I agreed with the message in question, but I am ambivalent at best about it, though I will admit that this film taps into a thought that has occured to me more than once, that the main thing people might despise us in a few centuries (in the way we despise slave owners now) will be our consumption of meat. Doesn't mean that I agree with those hypothetical future humans, but it's a conceivable future, though this obviously accelerates things quite a bit for satirical convenience.
A Prayer Before Dawn (Jean-Stéphane Sauvaire, 2017)
Spoiler
I wonder how this play to someone who speaks thai. Probably pretty boring, as the main thing this film has going for it is how much it commits to putting us into its main character's perspective of confusion and alienation at being in an environment where he essentially controls nothing and understands very little aside from the very clear danger he is in. Ultimately suffers from quite a bit of bloat and a conclusion that is supposed to feel inspirational, something that seems quite anthetical to the film that comes before it - an inevitable consequence of the basic form of the boxing film and of the true story of it all. I will say that, if you're going to include the actual person in your based-on real life events in your film, this is probably the best way to do it.
The Art of Flying (Jan van Ijken, 2015)
Spoiler
The single piece of commentary in this lies in the title, and I'm not sure I agree with it (I don't think there's anything artful about what the birds are doing), but it is quite an arresting piece of filmmaking. I've seen this kind of thing before of course (who hasn't?) and it's always pretty to look at, but what makes it particularly spectacular here is probably the way the sound is captured and the black-and-white cinematography, which makes the bird's movements create something that becomes almost abstract at times, result in something that looks like a white noise screen before returning to the beautiful, structured chaos of life.
1. The Art of Flying (72aicm) - 7/10
2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past (Armoreska) - 6/10
3. A Prayer Before Dawn (pitchorneirda) - 6/10

Quite a close group for me, especially between 2 and 3 (just a point apart on my 100-points rating scale).
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#20

Post by joachimt »

Teproc wrote: October 18th, 2021, 10:32 pm Carnage: Swallowing the Past (Simon Amstell, 2017)
Spoiler
A piece of agitprop that has some interest beyond its message because of some inspired satirical bits and a general self-reflexiveness about the impossiblity of making a film with such a radical message palatable to audiences. I would probably like this more if I agreed with the message in question, but I am ambivalent at best about it, though I will admit that this film taps into a thought that has occured to me more than once, that the main thing people might despise us in a few centuries (in the way we despise slave owners now) will be our consumption of meat. Doesn't mean that I agree with those hypothetical future humans, but it's a conceivable future, though this obviously accelerates things quite a bit for satirical convenience.
A Prayer Before Dawn (Jean-Stéphane Sauvaire, 2017)
Spoiler
I wonder how this play to someone who speaks thai. Probably pretty boring, as the main thing this film has going for it is how much it commits to putting us into its main character's perspective of confusion and alienation at being in an environment where he essentially controls nothing and understands very little aside from the very clear danger he is in. Ultimately suffers from quite a bit of bloat and a conclusion that is supposed to feel inspirational, something that seems quite anthetical to the film that comes before it - an inevitable consequence of the basic form of the boxing film and of the true story of it all. I will say that, if you're going to include the actual person in your based-on real life events in your film, this is probably the best way to do it.
The Art of Flying (Jan van Ijken, 2015)
Spoiler
The single piece of commentary in this lies in the title, and I'm not sure I agree with it (I don't think there's anything artful about what the birds are doing), but it is quite an arresting piece of filmmaking. I've seen this kind of thing before of course (who hasn't?) and it's always pretty to look at, but what makes it particularly spectacular here is probably the way the sound is captured and the black-and-white cinematography, which makes the bird's movements create something that becomes almost abstract at times, result in something that looks like a white noise screen before returning to the beautiful, structured chaos of life.
1. The Art of Flying (72aicm) - 7/10
2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past (Armoreska) - 6/10
3. A Prayer Before Dawn (pitchorneirda) - 6/10

Quite a close group for me, especially between 2 and 3 (just a point apart on my 100-points rating scale).
I put your vote in my spreadsheet as Carnage - Prayer - Art, because that is the order of your reviews. Luckily I looked twice at your post and noticed the ranking below your reviews.

Note to everyone:
Be absolutely clear about your vote! Start the post with your vote and use numbers 1, 2 and 3. It happens often that I don't immediately see what the actual vote is. Armo, I'm looking at you as well.
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#21

Post by clemmetarey »

1. A Prayer Before Dawn (2017) 6/10
2. The Art of Flying (2015) 5/10
3. Carnage: Swallowing the Past (2017) 4/10
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#23

Post by Marazmatique »

1. A Prayer Before Dawn
2. Carnage: Swallowing the Past
3. The Art of Flying

Very close round for me, I enjoyed all of them.
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#24

Post by edward5 »

1. The Art of Flying. simple & effective
2. A Prayer Before Dawn. nice cinematography & acting
3. Carnage: Swallowing the Past. naive & one-side vision
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#25

Post by joachimt »

Deadline in 16 hours.

Image A Prayer Before Dawn: 1.778 (22-14)
Image The Art of Flying: 1.889 (20-16)
Image Carnage: Swallowing the Past: 2.333 (12-24)
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#26

Post by OldAle1 »

Running late, but I guess not too late....

1. Art of Flying VERY GOOD - EXCELLENT
Spoiler
Simply one of the finest short nature documentaries I've seen from recent years, or maybe ever. I'm not going to try to make it out to be anything more than what it is - a brief record of masses of birds flying in wave-like patterns, with the natural sounds of the wings - but it's beautifully shot and kind of awesome.
2. Carnage GOOD
Spoiler
Mock-documentary looking back at Britain's horrifying history of meat-eating in the 90 years before it was outlawed in 2035. This makes some of the obvious jokes and references that you'd expect, and it focuses much more on the animal rights reasons for vegansim than it does on climate change or health, though these are not ignored; in fact it's quite packed for something less than 70 minutes long, and it's breathless pace makes it frankly a bit tiring by the end. My favorite bits were those about early vegans like the "Bland" family - things certainly have improved, though I've yet to find a vegan bacon that's edible, personally.
3. A Prayer Before Dawn POOR
Spoiler
I guess I'm one of the odd ones out here. I found this relentlessly ugly in the visual sense - it's a pet peeve of mine, the desaturated blue-gray look of so many films of the past 20 years, but I've seen it done well, and it just isn't here; lower-grade digital cameras seem to take all the texture and sharpness out of the picture, which might otherwise be compensations for the lack of color - what we have here though is just muddy, dark, dreary and ugly. But I can take visuals I don't like if I'm interested in the narrative, characters, etc,, and it adds up to something. This just didn't IMO - OK, guy is an addict (and a guy with a severe anger problem it seems to me) and boxing is his out, and he spends the 2 hours of the film boxing, drinking, smoking dope, and falling apart, all while in a rough Thai prison - it's one of the most repetitive features I can remember seeing in a long time. I just didn't see anything redemptive/instructive/really anything here - apart from the very last scene where we find out that this is based on a true story and that the guy is now trying to help others, it might just as well have ended exactly as it began. The lead actor is pretty good I guess but when it comes down to it a film combining sports and prison is going to have to be pretty fucking amazing for me to enjoy it, and this doesn't come anywhere close. Not a dreadful film, but not at all enjoyable for me, and easily my least-favorite of this Cup so far.
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#27

Post by joachimt »

At the moment it's a tie between Art and Prayer, but I expect a couple more votes to reach the normal level of participation.

Head-to-head is a small advantage for Prayer.
Image A Prayer Before Dawn - Image The Art of Flying: 10 - 9
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#28

Post by joachimt »

Deadline is over. Somehow we had four voters less than in match B and C. :(

So the final score:

Image

Image A Prayer Before Dawn: 1.842 (22-16)
Image The Art of Flying: 1.842 (22-16)
Image Carnage: Swallowing the Past: 2.316 (13-25)

Head to head
Image A Prayer Before Dawn - Image The Art of Flying: 10 - 9
Image A Prayer Before Dawn - Image Carnage: Swallowing the Past: 12 - 7
Image The Art of Flying - Image Carnage: Swallowing the Past: 13 - 6

So the winner is pitchorneirda!!

More stats:

Number of #1-votes
Image A Prayer Before Dawn: 8
Image The Art of Flying: 9
Image Carnage: Swallowing the Past: 2

Number of #3-votes
Image A Prayer Before Dawn: 5
Image The Art of Flying: 6
Image Carnage: Swallowing the Past: 8
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#29

Post by pitchorneirda »

Phew...I'm relieved but that was close...I was lucky to compete against a short and a mockumentary I guess
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#30

Post by 72aicm »

joachimt wrote: October 25th, 2021, 3:50 pm Deadline is over. Somehow we had four voters less than in match B and C. :(
Someone must not like me, had the same issue in the world cup. :P

Or it could just be that all the movies are unofficial so it atract less interest.

Do you have the stats for best number two? Asking for a friend!

Congrats to pitch!
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#31

Post by Armoreska »

turns out my weird vote was crucial
he or A. or Armo or any

Image
currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#32

Post by joachimt »

72aicm wrote: October 25th, 2021, 3:54 pm Do you have the stats for best number two? Asking for a friend!
Check the R1 schedule topic.
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#33

Post by Teproc »

1. Alexandra's Project - 7/10
2. El esqueleto de la senora Morales - 6/10
3. Nacionalna klasa - 6/10

Alexandra's Project (Rolf de Heer, 2003)
Spoiler
De Heer makes it very clear from the get go that there is something very wrong going on in this little suburban family, and that Alexandra is going to do something about it... but he certainly enjoys toying with us (much like Alexandra does with Steve) as to what the specifis are, which means that when the reckoning comes, we are very much in Steve's shoes, whether we like it or not, and just as captive as he is to Alexandra's will, a pretty powerful way to exert, well, power for someone who has obviously felt stripped of it for so long. Her unrelenting takedown of their marriage is scathing and striking, hard to watch at times, and it all makes for an interesting food for thought on gender relations and the institution of marriage, which was historically a way to assure legitimate descendants and is now mostly a financial arrangement, but carries all of this cultural weight with it which makes it a complex and fascinating aspect of life. It's a film that feels like it could have come out yesterday, as it is quite in tune with how we talk about gender roles in our societies. As a thriller, it works but the second you start trying to imagine anything going on outside of the film's confines, it kind of falls apart - how Alexandra practically intends to enact her revenge seems... well, there's a reason it's left vague I guess. In any case, it does work within the confines of the film and of their impeccably secured house, which is probably the most important part.
El esqueleto de la senora Morales (Rogelio A. Gonzalez, 1960)
Spoiler
A fun dark comedy, mostly carried by Arturo de Cordova's charismatic and sympathetic performance of a bon-vivant who wants to enjoy life but made the wrong choice in marrying a very pious woman, truly a match made in hell. I wish the wife had as much personality, but she's quite one-note, which I think is because the film is less meant as a satire of married life than it is as a criticism of the power the Church had in Mexican society, but then the way the film evolves lateron doesn't fully support that reading, as it turns more into a light-hearted Hitchcockian thriller with the usual attempt at a "perfect crime" that seems to work perfectly... until it doesn't. It's all a bit predictable on that front, though impeccably shot and quite entertaining.
Nacionalna klasa (Goran Markovic, 1979)
Spoiler
It's easy to see why a film like this becomes a cult classic for a generation, as it adresses real issues and situations young people in Yougoslavia would have known at a time in both a light-hearted but also at times sincere fashion. Mostly it's about one of the most basic facts of adult life, which is to be responsible... or not to be, and it's a fun ride among the country's youth culture of the time, while generally being entertaining throughout. There's nothing particularly remarkable about it aside from its perspective, but I had a nice time with it.
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sol
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#34

Post by sol »

Teproc wrote: October 26th, 2021, 12:24 pm 1. Alexandra's Project - 7/10
2. El esqueleto de la senora Morales - 6/10
3. Nacionalna klasa - 6/10
I appreciate the support, but wrong thread. :unsure:
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