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2021 Challenges: Leaderboard and Rules Finalisation

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Lonewolf2003
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#41

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

sol wrote: November 29th, 2020, 12:22 pm Having a consistent amount of time for short films and television episodes should make participation easier. It is possible to plan viewings in advance by knowing the rules that individual hosts will be using (since they are all the same) and it should make hosting easier since the onus is taken away from the host to determine a suitable runtime for eligible TV episodes.

I honestly don't mind returning to what we were doing this year, i.e. hosts choosing themselves whether to use anything from 60 to 180 minutes for television episodes, but this option was put up to vote in the poll (that others requested me to run) and only received one vote. I mean, we *could* ignore the poll results since I have no idea how many participants abstained from voting. Looking at the poll results though, there does seem to be an appetite for consistency between how many minutes of shorts and television episodes are worth a single point, and I don't know if it is likely that a greater number of participants abstained rather than voted in the poll.

It is certainly not my intention to suck the fun out of participating in challenges. These discussions are not fun for me, but I want to avoid squabbling over runtimes in 2021 and the easiest way to do that seemed to be to allow everyone to voice their opinions before the 2021 challenge series begins.

If people want me to step aside, I'm fine to do that. I don't really need the extra workload and stress.
Of course we’re not going to ignore the poll because a few people dislike this whole discussion. There clearly was a problem with the previous system, not a major one but it’s was far from flawless, otherwise there wouldn’t be this much discussion about it now and last year before setting up various challenges. More people voted in this poll than for setting up the schedule, so seems very unlikely lots of user, caring about this challenges, sustained. If there is a large crowd that wanted to keep the old system in tact they could have voted for that option.

Sure these discussions aren’t always fun, but they are necessary. Thanks again for leasing them. Mostly you’ve done a great job at it. You’ve done a great job in trying to take in different opinions and reach a consensus.

Unfortunately a change in the system will also always mean a few won’t like that change. That unfortunately just can’t be helped. Luckily we still can all just watch movies and non-movies, which in itself should be the greatest fun!
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#42

Post by insomnius »

I'm not a regular participant, but when I do take part, I like to watch shorts when they fit the challenge. Raising the bar to 80 minutes will decrease inclusiveness and enjoyment IMO, but I guess it's not the end of the world.

(For the record, I voted for the last option because I want to keep shorts at 60 minutes, not because I want consistency.)
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#43

Post by 72aicm »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 29th, 2020, 1:40 pm Of course we’re not going to ignore the poll because a few people dislike this whole discussion.
I’m not saying you should, but having the poll without the 60/40 rule as an option was really, really weird. I don’t mind changing the rules if that’s what most people wants, but in this poll we never had the chance to find out.
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#44

Post by sol »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 29th, 2020, 1:40 pm Sure these discussions aren’t always fun, but they are necessary. Thanks again for leasing them. Mostly you’ve done a great job at it. You’ve done a great job in trying to take in different opinions and reach a consensus.
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I have been trying my best to accommodate feedback and opinions from others, but I'll keep by what I said in the post that you quoted - that is, if people want me to step aside, I will step aside.
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#45

Post by Onderhond »

insomnius wrote: November 29th, 2020, 2:16 pm I like to watch shorts when they fit the challenge
So do! They're not banned.
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Lonewolf2003
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#46

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

sol wrote: November 29th, 2020, 2:31 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 29th, 2020, 1:40 pm Sure these discussions aren’t always fun, but they are necessary. Thanks again for leasing them. Mostly you’ve done a great job at it. You’ve done a great job in trying to take in different opinions and reach a consensus.
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I have been trying my best to accommodate feedback and opinions from others, but I'll keep by what I said in the post that you quoted - that is, if people want me to step aside, I will step aside.
There is little need to step aside, cause the while discussion is over anyway. We decided to go with 80 minutes. And that is like they say that. ;)
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#47

Post by blocho »

72aicm wrote: November 29th, 2020, 2:25 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 29th, 2020, 1:40 pm Of course we’re not going to ignore the poll because a few people dislike this whole discussion.
I’m not saying you should, but having the poll without the 60/40 rule as an option was really, really weird. I don’t mind changing the rules if that’s what most people wants, but in this poll we never had the chance to find out.
Option 4 in the poll was the status quo, in which many hosts chose the 60/40 rule. Option 5, which many people voted for, would have made the 60/40 rule the universal standard. Perhaps you didn't realize because it was not described as the "60/40 rule"? :shrug:
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#48

Post by insomnius »

Onderhond wrote: November 29th, 2020, 2:36 pm
insomnius wrote: November 29th, 2020, 2:16 pm I like to watch shorts when they fit the challenge
So do! They're not banned.
I will. But potentially, one might have to rack up 15-20 films, with everything that involves from choosing films, to logging, posting screenshots and maybe say something about each one, just to get one point. It's not all about runtimes. But like I said, I'm not a regular, so don't mind me.
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#49

Post by 72aicm »

blocho wrote: November 29th, 2020, 3:08 pm
72aicm wrote: November 29th, 2020, 2:25 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 29th, 2020, 1:40 pm Of course we’re not going to ignore the poll because a few people dislike this whole discussion.
I’m not saying you should, but having the poll without the 60/40 rule as an option was really, really weird. I don’t mind changing the rules if that’s what most people wants, but in this poll we never had the chance to find out.
Option 4 in the poll was the status quo, in which many hosts chose the 60/40 rule. Option 5, which many people voted for, would have made the 60/40 rule the universal standard. Perhaps you didn't realize because it was not described as the "60/40 rule"? :shrug:
:facepalm:

Yeah, Didn’t realise that in the option 4. Would have voted on that if that was the case. But that’s on me for not reading it properly.

Option 5 wasn’t 60/40 though. That was 60/60. Meaning mini-series in the 40-59 mins range have to be added up for it to count.

Anyways, 80 min it is. :cowbow:
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#50

Post by Onderhond »

insomnius wrote: November 29th, 2020, 3:10 pm I will. But potentially, one might have to rack up 15-20 films, with everything that involves from choosing films, to logging, posting screenshots and maybe say something about each one, just to get one point.
Just watch what looks interesting and if you don't make it to get an extra point ... :shrug:
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#51

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 »

insomnius wrote: November 29th, 2020, 3:10 pm
Onderhond wrote: November 29th, 2020, 2:36 pm
insomnius wrote: November 29th, 2020, 2:16 pm I like to watch shorts when they fit the challenge
So do! They're not banned.
I will. But potentially, one might have to rack up 15-20 films, with everything that involves from choosing films, to logging, posting screenshots and maybe say something about each one, just to get one point. It's not all about runtimes. But like I said, I'm not a regular, so don't mind me.
Just want to piggyback on the back of these salient points to observe that if I watch under 80 minutes of shorts next year, it mightn't really be worth the hassle to type each title out or copy and paste them in to the challenge thread.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in terms of the amount of short films being viewed. This change will certainly push me, for one, away from including them among my viewings in 2021.

And, yeah, I don't really mind how TV is handled. If people want to watch and log it, all well and good. It's been the concern around TV that has driven this discussion, and not any real dissatisfaction with the 60 minute rule for short films (which is the part of the equation that I am interested in).

Will I change habits and watch loads of TV next term? Dunno. Time will tell...
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#52

Post by jdidaco »

Maybe I misunderstood everything at this point, I don't know any more what's in discussion (somewhere in another thread it looked like I was attending a conference of mathematicians - rollover minutes, tabulations -, my dear ICMers the only thing I can do with numbers is counting them, and that barely!), or perhaps why you're discussing it in the first place (I know the why, but it is so, so... minor, insignificant, really), but I was under the strong impression that we were moving towards 40/60/80, meaning we maintain the 40 minutes runtime for features, 60 minutes for a pack of short films, and 80 minutes for TV episodes, etc. Isn't that so? I should add that 80 minutes for shorts is extremely off putting, extremely. Let people be happy, let them watch films, shorts, great TV, let's reinstall the fun, the challenges are one of the brightest, most cinephile-driven, most communal aspects of ICM (and max, you were in great part responsible for its popularity!!!). (l)
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#53

Post by shugs »

shugs wrote: November 28th, 2020, 9:01 pm
Obgeoff wrote: November 28th, 2020, 3:04 pm 80 minutes and the leaderboard is good. I’ll be interested to see if it leads to less shorts being watched in 2021 than 2020 but that’s not something to worry about. I’d be in favour of retaining rollover minutes, otherwise more time gets spent planning my viewing rather than just queueing things up.
From my experience as a host, most people don't really watch shorts anyways. There's a more significant number of TV watches. I have the spreadsheets for challenges I've hosted, will generate some stats the next days.
Unfortunately, I have the number of shorts only for the Western and Eastern Europe challenges from 2019.

There were 722 unique features watched for the Western challenge and only 22 shorts. For EE there were 327 features and 43 shorts.

I've stopped tracking shorts this year since they were so few they didn't result in any interesting stats.

I also don't get the "I'll stop watching shorts" attitude. They're just internet points, people. :blink:
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#54

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 »

shugs wrote: November 29th, 2020, 6:18 pm
shugs wrote: November 28th, 2020, 9:01 pm
Obgeoff wrote: November 28th, 2020, 3:04 pm 80 minutes and the leaderboard is good. I’ll be interested to see if it leads to less shorts being watched in 2021 than 2020 but that’s not something to worry about. I’d be in favour of retaining rollover minutes, otherwise more time gets spent planning my viewing rather than just queueing things up.
From my experience as a host, most people don't really watch shorts anyways. There's a more significant number of TV watches. I have the spreadsheets for challenges I've hosted, will generate some stats the next days.
Unfortunately, I have the number of shorts only for the Western and Eastern Europe challenges from 2019.

There were 722 unique features watched for the Western challenge and only 22 shorts. For EE there were 327 features and 43 shorts.

I've stopped tracking shorts this year since they were so few they didn't result in any interesting stats.

I also don't get the "I'll stop watching shorts" attitude. They're just internet points, people. :blink:
They are - but, as has been pointed out, upping to 80 minutes will mean that more time, planning, posting, etc. will go into each batch of short films. It is this that makes me think I will move away from logging shorts, under this envisioned system.
That's all, folks!
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#55

Post by peeptoad »

jdidaco wrote: November 29th, 2020, 5:58 pm ...but I was under the strong impression that we were moving towards 40/60/80, meaning we maintain the 40 minutes runtime for features, 60 minutes for a pack of short films, and 80 minutes for TV episodes, etc.
This makes mad sense, jd. Maybe something to consider for the future.
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#56

Post by flavo5000 »

Onderhond wrote: November 29th, 2020, 3:36 pm
insomnius wrote: November 29th, 2020, 3:10 pm I will. But potentially, one might have to rack up 15-20 films, with everything that involves from choosing films, to logging, posting screenshots and maybe say something about each one, just to get one point.
Just watch what looks interesting and if you don't make it to get an extra point ... :shrug:
Yea, I mean, I've watched several shorts this month I just didn't bother logging because, eh.
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#57

Post by flavo5000 »

shugs wrote: November 29th, 2020, 6:18 pm
shugs wrote: November 28th, 2020, 9:01 pm
Obgeoff wrote: November 28th, 2020, 3:04 pm 80 minutes and the leaderboard is good. I’ll be interested to see if it leads to less shorts being watched in 2021 than 2020 but that’s not something to worry about. I’d be in favour of retaining rollover minutes, otherwise more time gets spent planning my viewing rather than just queueing things up.
From my experience as a host, most people don't really watch shorts anyways. There's a more significant number of TV watches. I have the spreadsheets for challenges I've hosted, will generate some stats the next days.
Unfortunately, I have the number of shorts only for the Western and Eastern Europe challenges from 2019.

There were 722 unique features watched for the Western challenge and only 22 shorts. For EE there were 327 features and 43 shorts.

I've stopped tracking shorts this year since they were so few they didn't result in any interesting stats.

I also don't get the "I'll stop watching shorts" attitude. They're just internet points, people. :blink:
I think the challenges you'd see the highest numbers of shorts in are probably Animation and Documentary if I were to guess.
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#58

Post by Onderhond »

shugs wrote: November 29th, 2020, 6:18 pm I also don't get the "I'll stop watching shorts" attitude. They're just internet points, people. :blink:
I don't get it either.

Maybe just a handful of people who are battling for first place will be affected, but most on't ever get near first place. You have to watch more than 100 films in one month, which is crazy. And that's just for the slow challenges.
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#59

Post by shugs »

Quick question, are rewatches of a movie already seen in the challenge allowed? :think: I've encountered this situation a few times now and I allowed it, but was never sure if there's an unwritten rule or something.
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#60

Post by Coryn »

How would the points distribution work exactly ?

I love participating in challenges but as someone with too little time to win a challenge it would be a nice goal to for example get top 20 in each challenge.
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#61

Post by sol »

shugs wrote: November 30th, 2020, 5:01 pm Quick question, are rewatches of a movie already seen in the challenge allowed? :think: I've encountered this situation a few times now and I allowed it, but was never sure if there's an unwritten rule or something.
I've never allowed them from a philosophical standpoint (challenges should be about exploring and expanding one's horizons) but I don't think it is a big problem if individual hosts make their own calls regarding this.
Coryn wrote: December 26th, 2020, 9:45 pm How would the points distribution work exactly ?

I love participating in challenges but as someone with too little time to win a challenge it would be a nice goal to for example get top 20 in each challenge.
If you land in the top 20 of a challenge you get 1 point.
If you land in the top 10 of a challenge you get 2 points.
If you land in the top 5 of a challenge you get 3 points.
If you win a challenge you get 4 points.

If you land in the top 20 of each official challenge, you will earn 36 points. Maybe more if you crest the top 10 for some of them.
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#62

Post by Coryn »

sol wrote: December 27th, 2020, 3:55 am
shugs wrote: November 30th, 2020, 5:01 pm Quick question, are rewatches of a movie already seen in the challenge allowed? :think: I've encountered this situation a few times now and I allowed it, but was never sure if there's an unwritten rule or something.
I've never allowed them from a philosophical standpoint (challenges should be about exploring and expanding one's horizons) but I don't think it is a big problem if individual hosts make their own calls regarding this.
Coryn wrote: December 26th, 2020, 9:45 pm How would the points distribution work exactly ?

I love participating in challenges but as someone with too little time to win a challenge it would be a nice goal to for example get top 20 in each challenge.
If you land in the top 20 of a challenge you get 1 point.
If you land in the top 10 of a challenge you get 2 points.
If you land in the top 5 of a challenge you get 3 points.
If you win a challenge you get 4 points.

If you land in the top 20 of each official challenge, you will earn 36 points. Maybe more if you crest the top 10 for some of them.
It's just a though and maybe I am too late to jump into the discussion, if so just ignore my comments.
I like the new point systems but could we make it for example like this ...

If you land in the top 20 of a challenge OR WATCH 10 MOVIES you get 1 point.
If you land in the top 10 of a challenge you get 2 points.
If you land in the top 5 of a challenge you get 3 points.
If you win a challenge you get 4 points.

It's just that the difference between getting a top 20 in the horror challenge would need 62 watches while the Africa challenge gets you top 20 with 1 watch.

This way ending top 20 in Africa would get you 1 point but watching 10 movies in the horror challenge would also get you 1 point.

If not, I'll just have to change my personal goals for these challenges which is okay as well.
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#63

Post by sol »

Coryn wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:08 am It's just a thought and maybe I am too late to jump into the discussion, if so just ignore my comments.

...

If not, I'll just have to change my personal goals for these challenges which is okay as well.
Sorry, Coryn - I'm not interested in mixing points for placement with # of viewings. There is also less data for me to track and enter in (which makes my life easier) if I'm just looking at the top 20 for each challenge.

It will be interesting to see how 2021 goes with this new system. We can always review and discuss it later next year once it has been going on for a few months. And Horror is a pretty notable exception challenge-wise. I think it will be still be quite an achievement if you can get in the top 20 for 35 Official Challenges. I might make that my own goal for next year.
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#64

Post by Coryn »

sol wrote: December 27th, 2020, 10:46 am
Coryn wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:08 am It's just a thought and maybe I am too late to jump into the discussion, if so just ignore my comments.

...

If not, I'll just have to change my personal goals for these challenges which is okay as well.
Sorry, Coryn - I'm not interested in mixing points for placement with # of viewings. There is also less data for me to track and enter in (which makes my life easier) if I'm just looking at the top 20 for each challenge.

It will be interesting to see how 2021 goes with this new system. We can always review and discuss it later next year once it has been going on for a few months. And Horror is a pretty notable exception challenge-wise. I think it will be still be quite an achievement if you can get in the top 20 for 35 Official Challenges. I might make that my own goal for next year.
Totally understand. I think I'm going to leave the points for what they are this year but still participate in the challenges and watch what I feel like to prevent another movie burnout like I had in 2020. Thanks for organising !
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#65

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

shugs wrote: November 30th, 2020, 5:01 pm Quick question, are rewatches of a movie already seen in the challenge allowed? :think: I've encountered this situation a few times now and I allowed it, but was never sure if there's an unwritten rule or something.
Rewatches are good for the soul, don't you know? ;)
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