Welcome to the ICM Forum. If you have an account but have trouble logging in, or have other questions, see THIS THREAD.
NOTE: Board emails should be working again. Information on forum upgrade and style issues.
Podcast: Talking Images (Episode 22 released November 17th * EXCLUSIVE * We Are Mentioned in a Book!!! Interview with Mary Guillermin on Rapture, JG & More)
Polls: Coming of Age (Results), DtC - Ratings (Results), 1933 (May 12th), 1970s (May 29th)
Challenges: Japan, Mystery/Thriller, Western
Film of the Week: La donna del lago, June nominations (May 28th)

2021 Challenges: How should we track TV episodes?

What system should we use to track television episodes in the 2021 Challenge Series?

Poll ended at November 25th, 2020, 9:36 am

75 minutes = 1 point for all TV episodes, miniseries episodes and shorts
1
2%
90 minutes = 1 point for all TV episodes, miniseries episodes and shorts
19
44%
60 minutes = 1 point for all shorts... and 90 minutes = 1 point for all TV episodes
8
19%
60 minutes = 1 point for all shorts... and hosts choose whether to have 60, 75, 90, 120 or 180mins of TV = 1pt
1
2%
60 minutes = 1 point for all TV episodes, miniseries episodes and shorts (watching TV gets you more points than watching films)
14
33%
 
Total votes: 43

User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11444
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

2021 Challenges: How should we track TV episodes?

#1

Post by sol »

Over the past few years there has been much discussion and debate about including TV episodes in the challenges and how many points they should be worth. Over these few years, we have seen hosts declare anything from 60 to 180 minutes worth of TV episodes being worth one point.

For the past five days, we are have discussed this issue and the idea that it would be beneficial to have a consistent approach to the way that TV episodes are tracked in challenges.

We have also discussed the fact that 60 minutes of TV episodes = 1 point is an unfair system since the average length of a movie is 90 minutes. If one movie should be worth 1pt, an equivalent amount of TV should also be worth 1 point.

This has caused some debate since some hosts would prefer to treat everything not-a-movie as one and the same, which gets complicated since this would also mean raising the number of short films required for a point to something higher than 60 minutes. But we don't have to do this.

It is hoped with this poll that we can get a snapshot of what the majority of challenge participants would be keen on with acknowledgement that 1 point in a challenge should signify roughly the same commitment to watching, whether it be binge-watching TV or watching a full length feature film. Duration equality if you will.

I would like to acknowledge all of the contributions of my fellow forum users on the thread linked to above. I recognise that these four options presented on this thread DO NOT reflect every possible variation under the sun, but I would prefer to give a few options rather than overwhelm challenge participants with dozens of options.

If you do not agree with any of the first three options, I would suggest you voting for the fourth option. This is what we have done for the past few years and while it is inconsistent, I recognise that it might be better for us to carry on this way if we cannot agree on a fair way to recognise television episodes in the challenge series.

Please also note that this only intended as a snapshot poll. The result is not the be-all-and-end-all but it should give us a better idea of where everyone stands moving forward.
Last edited by sol on November 20th, 2020, 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11371
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#2

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

I restrain from voting, cause my option isn't included. I frankly don't care any more.
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11444
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#3

Post by sol »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:52 am I restrain from voting, cause my option isn't included. I frankly don't care any more.
That's your right to do so and I respect it. :thumbsup:

To anybody else reading, I would like to emphasise that this intended as a mere snapshot poll of where interest lies. Not the be-all-and-end-all - just testing the water to see where interest lies with regards to these four options.
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#4

Post by sebby »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:52 am I restrain from voting, cause my option isn't included. I frankly don't care any more.
Same here. Sol, it seems you are more interested in getting the outcome you want rather than potentially honoring what the majority wants. No reason not to put more than four options in the poll.

Abstaining under protest :banana:
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11444
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#5

Post by sol »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 11:43 amSol, it seems you are more interested in getting the outcome you want rather than potentially honoring what the majority wants. No reason not to put more than four options in the poll.
You're entitled to that opinion and I respect your right to abstain.

As mentioned quite a few times so far, this poll is designed to gauge community interest if we decide to adjust the amount of points for television series in order to make things fairer.

I recognise that I have been the most vocal about this, but I am the host of the discussion thread so I don't think that's unexpected. It's certainly not me alone who is concerned by this, with blocho and flavo also raising concerns about 60mins of TV not being nearly the same as average film length within the first few posts of the discussion thread.

Yes, I could have placed more options in the poll but it didn't seem wise to overload voters with too many decisions to choose from, especially since this is only an interim poll.

The only outcome that I am interested in is a level playing field for TV episodes to be fairly included in Official Challenges. It's not my intention to make it seem otherwise and I appreciate your feedback.
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
mightysparks
Site Admin
Posts: 31430
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#6

Post by mightysparks »

I prefer a 60 min rule for all non-film things but if that’s not a possibility I like the 90 min rule because tv shows are normally 30 or 45 minutes and it seems like the best way to fit those in. I don’t really see why a 45 minute Tv show is ‘easier’ than any feature film but I do think the current system needs to be adjusted.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

iCM | IMDb | LastFM | TSZDT

Image
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#7

Post by sebby »

I side with whatever option presents the least amount of hurdles for film/tv/short/miniseries exploration -- for most, that seems to be the value of the challenges. It's only a small handful each month chasing the imaginary gold medal.

I don't think treating challenges like honest-to-goodness competitions that require a strict and precise rulesheet is the right way to go, so finding the "fairest" way to allocate points for non-features should take a back seat to keeping things simple and easy and encouraging as much participation as possible.
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11444
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#8

Post by sol »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 12:16 pm I don't think treating challenges like honest-to-goodness competitions that require a strict and precise rulesheet is the right way to go, so finding the "fairest" way to allocate points for non-features should take a back seat to keeping things simple and easy and encouraging as much participation as possible.
Thanks for stating that sebby - I actually really like that sentiment. :thumbsup: That's the most convincing argument I have heard so far.
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11444
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#9

Post by sol »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 12:16 pm I side with whatever option presents the least amount of hurdles for film/tv/short/miniseries exploration
OK, I've edited the poll and added in the 60 minute option. :party:
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11444
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#10

Post by sol »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:52 am I restrain from voting, cause my option isn't included. I frankly don't care any more.
60-minute option added in.

It doesn't achieve a fair balance between TV and movies, but I guess if people don't want that, it's up to them to say so. :shrug:
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11444
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#11

Post by sol »

OK, here's something fun:

If you have voted already, you HAVE to vote again. It looks like editing the poll options has reset the system.
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
RogerTheMovieManiac88
Posts: 2013
Joined: February 4th, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Westmeath, Ireland
Contact:

#12

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 »

Thanks for editing in the 60 minutes across the board for non-features. That's the one I went for, due to ease of tracking, encouragement to participate and explore, and continuation of the 40/60 rule.

:cheers:
That's all, folks!
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11371
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#13

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

sol wrote: November 20th, 2020, 12:25 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:52 am I restrain from voting, cause my option isn't included. I frankly don't care any more.
60-minute option added in.

It doesn't achieve a fair balance between TV and movies, but I guess if people don't want that, it's up to them to say so. :shrug:
Thanks. Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh earlier. Might have taken out some work frustration on you. I do appreciate the effort you put into this. :hug:

While you're right nobody did make a compelling argument why 60 minutes is fair when the average film length is 90 minutes. To me the rule isn't about making the competition completely fair. I'm not afraid (or care) that much about others abusing tv or shorts to win. I think 60 minutes is fair enough, and still makes challenges inclusive and accessible. It prevents watching one 40+ minute episode getting a point per episode. So while it's not equal the average film length for one point, it increases the limit enough to me to make the competition far enough for me, without making the threshold to watch short or tv too high. Cause 90 minutes of shorts it total sounds a lot still. Combined with that I do also want it all to be uniform, I'm for the 60 minutes for all non-movie rule.
Last edited by Lonewolf2003 on November 20th, 2020, 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#14

Post by Onderhond »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 12:16 pm to keeping things simple and easy and encouraging as much participation as possible.
If it's participation outside the film sphere it's just noise.
I could start logging my Borderline's game time in unofficial/sci-fi/action challenges too, but where would that lead us.

If it's the community aspect that is important, signal-to-noise ratio matters.
User avatar
RogerTheMovieManiac88
Posts: 2013
Joined: February 4th, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Westmeath, Ireland
Contact:

#15

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 »

I frankly could have voted for any of the last three of the five options. I think the most compelling reason though for 60 minutes across the board is uniformity. It would make listing non-features easier, where a contestant/participant would list titles and then simply divide the total running-time by 60 to arrive at their sub-total.
That's all, folks!
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#16

Post by Onderhond »

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 1:18 pm I think the most compelling reason though for 60 minutes across the board is uniformity. It would make listing non-features easier, where a contestant would list titles and then simply divide the total running-time by 60 to arrive at their sub-total.
Wouldn't you be happiest then with any of the first 3 options? They all offer the same uniformity benefit. And dividing by 60 isn't any easier than dividing by 75 or 90.
User avatar
mightysparks
Site Admin
Posts: 31430
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#17

Post by mightysparks »

DVDTalk's horror challenge ruling is as follows:
Movies = 1 entry (despite running time)

TV shows count according to length as they're aired on TV (including commercials):

30 minute shows = ¼ an entry
1 hour shows = ½ an entry
90 minute shows = ¾ an entry
2 hour shows = 1 entry

Mini-Series = 1 entry for each day it aired

Like the other challenges, you need four 30 minute shows for 1 entry and two hour-long shows for 1 entry. 30 minute shows typically run roughly 22 - 24 minutes without commercials and hour-long shows are roughly 43 - 45 minutes. If it's short films that are 10 minutes or less, once you hit around 23 minutes of watching them, you've reached one 30 minute show (¼ an entry). Any combination that gets you to 90 minutes can be used for 1 entry. And this is not an exact science, so if you're off by a little it's really no big deal.

When listing the TV shows try to keep them together in 1 entry.
(Example: 30 min show/30 min show/30 min show/30 min show)

For the sake of organization, it's advised that you keep a Temporary TV section at the bottom of your list until you get enough for an entry.

Why 90 minutes? To keep the continuity going with the other challenges.
The more I think about it, the more I think 90 mins for everything non feature film is the fairest option. Not only is it the easiest for participants to calculate, I think it satisfies most concerns about what the rule should be. Even though I still personally lean towards 60 mins, I think 90 mins the best option overall. Whatever happens, I support sol's decision and whatever he thinks is the best option for hosts, participants and as the challenge leaderboard host.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

iCM | IMDb | LastFM | TSZDT

Image
User avatar
RogerTheMovieManiac88
Posts: 2013
Joined: February 4th, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Westmeath, Ireland
Contact:

#18

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 »

Onderhond wrote: November 20th, 2020, 1:27 pm
RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 1:18 pm I think the most compelling reason though for 60 minutes across the board is uniformity. It would make listing non-features easier, where a contestant would list titles and then simply divide the total running-time by 60 to arrive at their sub-total.
Wouldn't you be happiest then with any of the first 3 options? They all offer the same uniformity benefit. And dividing by 60 isn't any easier than dividing by 75 or 90.
75 minutes seems a strange figure. I think an hour is eminently more favourable and compact for a collection of shorts. As I alluded to a day or two ago, I feel that an extension to 90 minutes would actually push people away from watching shorts.

I don't really see any reason to do away with the 60 minute rule, and I think adding TV and mini-series to that would make things simpler and more pleasant. I might even start watching some TV myself, haha!
That's all, folks!
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#19

Post by Onderhond »

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 1:33 pm I might even start watching some TV myself, haha!
Guess that's exactly why some would want to move away from the 60 minutes :p

I don't see the problem with the 75/90 minute barrier. Just log the shorts/TV stuff as you go along and once you hit the barrier you get a point. If you don't make it to an extra full point in the end ... see above, the community aspect matters more than winning to most :)
User avatar
frbrown
Posts: 6638
Joined: November 1st, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#20

Post by frbrown »

75 minutes was supposed to be a compromise, but judging from the votes, nobody wants to compromise tehe
Obgeoff
Posts: 627
Joined: May 29th, 2019, 9:23 am
Contact:

#21

Post by Obgeoff »

There seems to be a subset of people like myself who don’t watch TV for challenges but are concerned that the shorts requirement will increase making shorts watching less appealing. Whilst I voted for the last option, in truth, I don’t care about TV so any duration of TV to be one point works for me. It’s shorts or stuff like a Berlin Alexanderplatz being 60 minutes that I would be like to continue.

Saying that my participation in the 2021 challenges will be curtailed because of family reasons so don’t put much weight on my wishes.

By the way, I admire and appreciate how much you put into the challenges format and schedule sol.
Image
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1483
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#22

Post by kongs_speech »

I don't do challenges competitively, so I'm not really saying this to have any influence, but why does TV even count at all? You could watch every episode of The Simpsons and it's still not a film.
🏳️‍⚧️
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11371
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#23

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

kongs_speech wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:29 pm I don't do challenges competitively, so I'm not really saying this to have any influence, but why does TV even count at all? You could watch every episode of The Simpsons and it's still not a film.
Cause (almost) nobody (or very few) compete in challenges competitively, so we want to make them also inclusive and accessible for those people that do like to watch tv and like to read others people (comments) on tv viewings. Cause there is more than enough overlap between the two media to allow tv too in a voluntary game on the internet.
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1483
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#24

Post by kongs_speech »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:41 pm
kongs_speech wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:29 pm I don't do challenges competitively, so I'm not really saying this to have any influence, but why does TV even count at all? You could watch every episode of The Simpsons and it's still not a film.
Cause (almost) nobody (or very few) compete in challenges competitively, so we want to make them also inclusive and accessible for those people that do like to watch tv and like to read others people (comments) on tv viewings. Cause there is more than enough overlap between the two media to allow tv too.
Fair enough. Like I said, it doesn't concern me anyway, I was just curious.
🏳️‍⚧️
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#25

Post by Onderhond »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:41 pm
kongs_speech wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:29 pm I don't do challenges competitively, so I'm not really saying this to have any influence, but why does TV even count at all? You could watch every episode of The Simpsons and it's still not a film.
Cause (almost) nobody (or very few) compete in challenges competitively, so we want to make them also inclusive and accessible for those people that do like to watch tv and like to read others people (comments) on tv viewings. Cause there is more than enough overlap between the two media to allow tv too in a voluntary game on the internet.
I'll vote to include games too then. With the interactive format nowadays, there's more enough overlap and weird outliers to bridge any remaining grey areas between the two mediums.
User avatar
maxwelldeux
Donator
Posts: 8991
Joined: June 7th, 2016, 6:00 am
Location: Seattle-ish, WA, USA
Contact:

#26

Post by maxwelldeux »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:41 pm
kongs_speech wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:29 pm I don't do challenges competitively, so I'm not really saying this to have any influence, but why does TV even count at all? You could watch every episode of The Simpsons and it's still not a film.
Cause (almost) nobody (or very few) compete in challenges competitively, so we want to make them also inclusive and accessible for those people that do like to watch tv and like to read others people (comments) on tv viewings. Cause there is more than enough overlap between the two media to allow tv too in a voluntary game on the internet.
To piggyback on this, it's because the TV/miniseries format allows the filmmaker to do things that can't be accomplished in a single film of reasonable length. You can go into greater depth of characterization in a series. You can include much richer depth of information in a series as well. There's also different tension builds and pacing concerns and it's interesting to compare and contrast.
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#27

Post by sebby »

Onderhond wrote: November 20th, 2020, 6:14 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:41 pm
kongs_speech wrote: November 20th, 2020, 4:29 pm I don't do challenges competitively, so I'm not really saying this to have any influence, but why does TV even count at all? You could watch every episode of The Simpsons and it's still not a film.
Cause (almost) nobody (or very few) compete in challenges competitively, so we want to make them also inclusive and accessible for those people that do like to watch tv and like to read others people (comments) on tv viewings. Cause there is more than enough overlap between the two media to allow tv too in a voluntary game on the internet.
I'll vote to include games too then. With the interactive format nowadays, there's more enough overlap and weird outliers to bridge any remaining grey areas between the two mediums.
Yes, I'm sure whatever game you're playing has as much overlap with a film as TV somethings like US Go Home or OJ Made in America. Yup yup yup.
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#28

Post by Onderhond »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:12 pm Yes, I'm sure whatever game you're playing has as much overlap with a film as TV somethings like US Go Home or OJ Made in America. Yup yup yup.
I'm equally sure you've watched many, many, many 450+ minute films. So certain.
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#29

Post by sebby »

Obgeoff wrote: November 20th, 2020, 2:57 pm There seems to be a subset of people like myself who don’t watch TV for challenges but are concerned that the shorts requirement will increase making shorts watching less appealing. Whilst I voted for the last option, in truth, I don’t care about TV so any duration of TV to be one point works for me. It’s shorts or stuff like a Berlin Alexanderplatz being 60 minutes that I would be like to continue.
Yeah the 90 min rule is too big a hurdle for shorts IMO. I'll make the same argument as I did before: I believe generally speaking that 90 min worth of shorts is more intellectually demanding than a 90 min feature. And I'm sure other people than jsut me felt there were many challenges that seemed perfect to explore a small handful of shorts but no more than that. So the 60 min rule was just right for those of us that dip our toes into exploring shorts.

ANyway, my actual preference would be to keep 40/60 for mini/shorts, and bump TV to 75 (the apparently unhappy compromise). However, for the sake of simplicity an across the board 60 min tule now seems most palatable. A little penalization for minis and TV and none for shorts. You get no risk of putting people off of exploration and participation, but you do get the apparently desired penalty for non-movie things, albeit not to the degree some seem to want.
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#30

Post by sebby »

Onderhond wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:21 pm
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:12 pm Yes, I'm sure whatever game you're playing has as much overlap with a film as TV somethings like US Go Home or OJ Made in America. Yup yup yup.
I'm equally sure you've watched many, many, many 450+ minute films. So certain.
Neither here

nor there

You;re making a specious argument that looks a lot like trolling. I shouldn't have taken the bait.
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#31

Post by Onderhond »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:24 pm You;re making a specious argument that looks a lot like trolling. I shouldn't have taken the bait.
As someone who loves film and has (almost) nothing with TV, that's how your statement read to me.
The difference is I don't just willy-nilly assume people are trolling.

To me the difference between TV and film is big, so big in fact that I don't think they belong in the same space. I'm not alone in thinking that, hence the different terms we invented for film and TV. That's not to say I don't see the overlap, but overlap is just a way to move the goalposts and gets your everywhere and anywhere you want, which is why we're now doing film challenges and people are logging stand-up comedy shows.
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#32

Post by sebby »

Onderhond wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:48 pm
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:24 pm You;re making a specious argument that looks a lot like trolling. I shouldn't have taken the bait.
As someone who loves film and has (almost) nothing with TV, that's how your statement read to me.
The difference is I don't just willy-nilly assume people are trolling.

To me the difference between TV and film is big, so big in fact that I don't think they belong in the same space. I'm not alone in thinking that, hence the different terms we invented for film and TV. That's not to say I don't see the overlap, but overlap is just a way to move the goalposts and gets your everywhere and anywhere you want, which is why we're now doing film challenges and people are logging stand-up comedy shows.
So are US Go Home and OJ Made in America not films? Would you DQ them if you were hosting a challenge?

And why is it so bothersome to you that someone chose to watch some stand up comedy for a challenge? This is not the Olympics, my man.
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#33

Post by Onderhond »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:50 pmSo are US Go Home and OJ Made in America not films?
I don't know about US Go Home (from afar it looks like a film, not really sure how it's relevant here, but I don't know the details of this), OJ was both released as a 5-part mini-series as well as theatrically (according to Wikipedia, I didn't know it had a theatrical release too). That makes it an outlier/edge case, not a typical example of a film that suddenly equates all mini-series with films.

Edit: and according to Wikipedia: The documentary became the last of its type to be nominated and win an Oscar after a new Academy rule barred any "multi-part or limited series" from being eligible for the documentary categories. Not that I think the Academy is holy, but again a sign that there's a clear divide there.
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:50 pmAnd why is it so bothersome to you that someone chose to watch some stand up comedy for a challenge? This is not the Olympics, my man.
I already explained my reservation regarding signal-to-noise ratio. I come to ICM to talk about film, not to talk about TV series or to participate in challenge threads where people are rewarded for not watching films.

And I mean, by that reasoning, why are you bothered if I want to log my game time and have a chat with other gamers? If it's all about inclusivity and fun, right?
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#34

Post by sebby »

Onderhond wrote: November 20th, 2020, 10:07 pm
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:50 pmSo are US Go Home and OJ Made in America not films?
I don't know about US Go Home (from afar it looks like a film, not really sure how it's relevant here, but I don't know the details of this), OJ was both released as a 5-part mini-series as well as theatrically (according to Wikipedia, I didn't know it had a theatrical release too). That makes it an outlier/edge case, not a typical example of a film that suddenly equates all mini-series with films.

Edit: and according to Wikipedia: The documentary became the last of its type to be nominated and win an Oscar after a new Academy rule barred any "multi-part or limited series" from being eligible for the documentary categories. Not that I think the Academy is holy, but again a sign that there's a clear divide there.
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 9:50 pmAnd why is it so bothersome to you that someone chose to watch some stand up comedy for a challenge? This is not the Olympics, my man.
I already explained my reservation regarding signal-to-noise ratio. I come to ICM to talk about film, not to talk about TV series or to participate in challenge threads where people are rewarded for not watching films.

And I mean, by that reasoning, why are you bothered if I want to log my game time and have a chat with other gamers? If it's all about inclusivity and fun, right?
US Go Home was an episode of a larger limited TV program. OJ was a miniseries that gamed the system by screening theatrically a couple times. But fine. What about the long version of Fanny and Alexander? Excluded? After all it -- GASP -- was conceived as an episodic TV program.

If you want to talk about film, talk about film. If it bothers you so much that less than 10% of people are logging TV and comedy specials -- and a smaller % discussing them -- hit the ignore button. You're complaining about signal to noise when the signal you're getting is only a few ticks below crystal clear. Fact is many TV things are more "filmic" than certain films. There's a reason they have been counted for years, and why some have made forum lists, or even lists like TSPDT and DTC.

Log your game time if you wish. Go for it. Start a video game challenge. I'm sure people here would actually enjoy it.
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#35

Post by Onderhond »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 10:38 pm US Go Home was an episode of a larger limited TV program. OJ was a miniseries that gamed the system by screening theatrically a couple times. But fine. What about the long version of Fanny and Alexander? Excluded? After all it -- GASP -- was conceived as an episodic TV program.
Once again, I think it is pointless to discuss this using rare outliers and hazy overlaps.
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 10:38 pmFact is many TV things are more "filmic" than certain films.
Fact is so are many games :shrug:
The way you worded it, you could take the cheapest film and compare this to bland and mediocre TV programming and make your point. Overall, TV is not cinematic at all and compares very badly to film. It's extremely narrative-focused, rarely has an auteur signature, made to be consumed in chunks.
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 10:38 pm Log your game time if you wish. Go for it.
Yeah right :D I'll award myself 20 extra points for my Borderlands play time in the Unofficial challenge and see how that goes over. No doubt people will be delighted and very accepting. I mean, one of my entries was once disqualified because I started watching if before midnight of the 1st and I didn't see the entire film within that month :D
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#36

Post by sebby »

Onderhond wrote: November 20th, 2020, 10:53 pm
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 10:38 pm US Go Home was an episode of a larger limited TV program. OJ was a miniseries that gamed the system by screening theatrically a couple times. But fine. What about the long version of Fanny and Alexander? Excluded? After all it -- GASP -- was conceived as an episodic TV program.
Once again, I think it is pointless to discuss this using rare outliers and hazy overlaps.
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 10:38 pmFact is many TV things are more "filmic" than certain films.
Fact is so are many games :shrug:
The way you worded it, you could take the cheapest film and compare this to bland and mediocre TV programming and make your point. Overall, TV is not cinematic at all and compares very badly to film. It's extremely narrative-focused, rarely has an auteur signature, made to be consumed in chunks.
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 10:38 pm Log your game time if you wish. Go for it.
Yeah right :D I'll award myself 20 extra points for my Borderlands play time in the Unofficial challenge and see how that goes over. No doubt people will be delighted and very accepting. I mean, one of my entries was once disqualified because I started watching if before midnight of the 1st and I didn't see the entire film within that month :D
The mere existence of the "rare" outliers makes the point. You seem to have a very strict approach so it seems the Bergman minis, Ken Burns docs, US Go Homes of the world should not count if you had your druthers.

Regarding video games, I meant starting a strictly video game based challenge, not incorporating video games into one of the already existing challenges. I would actually agree that a purely narrative game (I haven't played many, but something like Edith Finch?) could theoretically be argued for inclusion in a regular challenge.
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#37

Post by sebby »

One could also argue that anything experimental/avant-garde should not be incliuded as it strays too far from the accepted definition of wht a movie is. 5 mins of a cat eating a fish? Bunch of trains passin by for an hour? And what about art isntallations? Why do these things count? They're not film!!
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6867
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#38

Post by Onderhond »

sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 11:03 pm The mere existence of the "rare" outliers makes the point.
If that's your take than all media should be accepted, from games to music to podcasts, whatever. Because you'll always find outliers and overlap that will equate one form of media with another.
sebby wrote: November 20th, 2020, 11:03 pm Regarding video games, I meant starting a strictly video game based challenge, not incorporating video games into one of the already existing challenges. I would actually agree that a purely narrative game (I haven't played many, but something like Edith Finch?) could theoretically be argued for inclusion in a regular challenge.
Why should it move to a thread of its own, if TV can just be included? I mean, apparently it's easy enough to skip/mute that little extra noise, as you suggested yourself in your previous post. And why only narrative games? There's plenty of non-narrative cinema. And there's interactive cinema too, so what real boundaries are left?
User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6768
Joined: July 4th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#39

Post by sebby »

Seems you are in love with either being extraordinarily fascistic about challenge rules or being an insensible contrarian.

No longer interested in this nonsense convo full of nonsense whatabouts. Have a nice day.
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1483
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#40

Post by kongs_speech »

TV is one thing, but I <i>definitely</i> don't see any valid case for including video games in a regular challenge. Random YouTube videos are closer to film than games are, plus it's not like every game takes the same amount of time for one person, whereas a film is definitively one length. Stand-up comedy, however, is absolutely a form of film. I don't include them in my year-end lists unless they're feature length and had a theatrical run or festival screening, but they are film, and I've never seen anyone argue otherwise.
🏳️‍⚧️
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
Post Reply