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2019 Challenges: Setting Up the Schedule

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2019 Challenges: Setting Up the Schedule

#1

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 3:55 am

This is the thread where we look at scheduling the 2019 Challenge options that performed the best in the October polls.

Full results and initial discussion infoShow
For those interested, I am including vote tallies for every option that received one or more votes. It is only the options outside of spoiler tags that we will be scheduling -- with the exception of 1960s and Animation, since we need to work out how to break that tie.

For anyone confused, we are choosing 12 options per category so that we have one for each month of year, and we are choosing half new options and half repeated options to allow for greater diversity.

Results from the October polls:

Country Challenges (2018 repeat)

France - 38
Italy - 34
China/HK/Taiwan - 27
Latin America - 25
Russian/USSR - 23
Australia/NZ/Oceania - 21
Runners-upShow
Germany - 19
Scandinavia/Nordic - 19
Africa - 18
Canada - 18
Iberia - 12
Middle East - 11

Country Challenges (new in 2019)

Japan - 35
UK/Ireland - 34
East Europe - 26
South Korea Korean Peninsula - 22
Benelux - 19
Czech/Slovak - 19
Runners-upShow
Poland - 18
Iran - 17
Mexico - 17
India - 16
Ireland - 16 (merged with UK; see above)
Southeast Asia - 14
Central Asia - 8
Hungary - 8
Romania - 7
Greece - 7
Israel - 7
Argentina - 6
Caribbean - 6
Philippines - 6
Turkey - 6
Vietnam - 6
Thailand - 5
Brazil - 5
Egypt - 5
Peru - 1

Suggested on this thread: Merge Czech/Slovak with Eastern Europe and bump Iran into the 2019 lineup

Genre/Decade Challenges (2018 repeat)

Horror (permanent)
Noir (permanent)

Documentary - 44
Western - 36
21st Century - 32
Sci-Fi/Fantasy - 32
1960s - 30 (this tie needs to be broken)
Animation - 30
Runners-upShow
Comedy - 23
1970s - 22
Action - 17
1980s - 15
1990s - 13

Genre/Decade Challenges (new in 2019)

War - 30
1930s - 28
1940s - 27
1950s - 26
Suspense/Thriller - 26
Runners-upShow
Mystery - 20
Romance - 20
Musical - 19
Biopic - 18
Crime - 18
New Hollywood - 18
Adult/Erotica - 16
Space & Time Travel - 16
Prison - 13
Adventure - 11
Spy/Espionage - 11
Conspiracy - 10
History - 10
Sport - 8
Alien Invasion - 7
Family - 6
Stand-Up - 6
Romantic Comedy - 5

Suggested on this thread: Ditch Animation and 1960s and instead promote Mystery or Romance

Theme Challenges (2018 repeat)

<400 Checks - 41
Directed by Women - 33
Silent Era - 31
Unofficial - 29
Low IMDb Rating - 25
They Shoot Pictures - 25
Runners-upShow
Doubling the Canon - 22
Cult/Grindhouse/Drive-In - 21
Criterion/Masters of Cinema - 17
Blaxploitation/African American - 14
LGBTIQ+/Queer - 14
Forum Lists - 11

Theme Challenges (new in 2019)

TSPDT 21st Century - 30
Academy Award nominees - 27
Jonathan Rosenbaum Essentials - 26
Conquering the World - 25
Doubling the Canon nominees - 22
Banned Films/Video Nasty - 21
Runners-upShow
In Competition at Cannes - 19
One film from each year - 19
Birth Year - 17
Coming of Age - 17
UNESCO Memory List - 16
Degrees of Separation - 15
Samurai - 15
One film from each iCM List - 14
Political - 13
Award Lists - 12
Book Adaptations - 11
Religious - 11
Re-watch - 11
Winter Movies - 11

Suggested on this thread: Merge TSPDT and TSPDT 21st Cent and promote either Cannes or One Per Year

Current issues to discuss
  • How do we break the tie between Animation and 1960s? Or do we promote a non-2018 genre instead?
  • Which Challenges do we want to run side-by-side? We have discussed trying to purposely schedule things for next year to make doubles and triples less achievable (thus creating greater diversity in what we watch).
  • Do we want to keep the regular schedule (Silents in September, Docs in December, etc) or do we want to shake things up?
  • Do we know in which month the DTC will be run? Obviously we need to know that before scheduling in the DTC nominees option.
  • Is everyone happy with my merging of the UK and Ireland? This idea was floated on the other threads.
Some thoughts of my own:

- Animation has been run 6 times in the past and the 1960s has only been run twice, so I think it is more logical to give the 1960s another whirl.

- There is enough time for me to a run a snap (say, 3-day) poll where we can vote on 1960s vs Animation if we can't decide through discussion.

- Let's place one of the later decades (40s, 50s, 60s or 21st Cent) in the same month as the Silent Era to make doubles harder.

In near complete form, this is the table that we are looking to complete:

December 1 edit: Finished Schedule! :sweat:

2019 Challenge Schedule: A Work in Progress
MonthCountry ChallengeGenre/Decade ChallengeTheme Challenge
January Russia/USSR Sci-Fi/Fantasy Rosenbaum Essentials
February China/HK/Taiwan 1930s Academy Award Nominees
March France War Directed by Women
April Australia/NZ/Oceania 1940s Doubling the Canon Nominees
May Iran Western In Competition at Cannes
June Eastern Europe 1950s Banned Films/Video Nasty
July Benelux Mystery/Suspense/Thriller Low IMDb Rating
August UK/Ireland Romance <400 Checks
September Japan 21st Century Silent Era
October Latin America & Caribbean Horror TSPDT + TSPDT 21st Century
November Korean Peninsula Film Noir Unofficial
December Italy Documentary Conquering the World


Countries/regions that still need to be placedGenre/Decades that still need to be placedThemes that still need to be placed
---
Last edited by sol on December 1st, 2018, 3:42 am, edited 16 times in total.
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#2

Post by blocho » November 3rd, 2018, 4:07 am

- Go with animation over 1960s. There are already a ton of decades/era challenges.
- Two 1930s?
- No, we want more doubles and triples. I want to see a silent era Western from Benelux.
- How about including North Korea with South Korea?

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#3

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 4:18 am

blocho wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 4:07 am
- Go with animation over 1960s. There are already a ton of decades/era challenges.
- Two 1930s?
- No, we want more doubles and triples. I want to see a silent era Western from Benelux.
- How about including North Korea with South Korea?
- And there are also a ton of genre Challenges already too. ;) Actually, I wonder what would happen if we took Animation out of genre/decade and placed into the Theme lineup... though I think that would still create ties in need of breaking.

- Fixed the double 1930s typo.

- All sarcasm aside, I know that it is impossible to avoid doubles and triples altogether. It seems wise though to try to reduce the doubling and tripling as much as possible so that participants watch what they want to see - not what they think can earn them double or triple points.

- I'm certainly open to changing South Korean to Korean Peninsula if everyone wants that.
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#4

Post by funkybusiness » November 3rd, 2018, 4:19 am

I've not been active in discussions thus far but here's a couple thoughts.

1. UK/Ireland merger is fine by me. looking at [redacted] they've got 13.7k listings for UK and only 505 for Ireland.
2. *cough* Considering we only ever care about Animation, I'm fine with giving the 'official' challenge status to 1960s for 2019.
3. I would very much like for Russian/USSR to be run again, preferably early in the year like 2018, and I would enjoy hosting again, if that's an option.
4. I don't think there's a need for both a 21st century decade challenge and an additional themed TSDPT 21st century challenge.
5. DtC is fluid, dependent on TSPDT updating, but the last two years' nominations have begun on the 15th and the 17th of February, respectively, nominations process runs one month, voting lasts another month, so, if next year's is approximately the same time schedule, and if we need a 1st of the month to last of the month scheduling, March would probably be the best place for a DtC nomination challenge. Nominations were locked in by mid-March this year. The unofficial one I ran this year lasted 2/19-4/25, just for reference's sake.

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#5

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 4:32 am

funkybusiness wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 4:19 am
I've not been active in discussions thus far but here's a couple thoughts.

1. UK/Ireland merger is fine by me. looking at [redacted] they've got 13.7k listings for UK and only 505 for Ireland.
2. *cough* Considering we only ever care about Animation, I'm fine with giving the 'official' challenge status to 1960s for 2019.
3. I would very much like for Russian/USSR to be run again, preferably early in the year like 2018, and I would enjoy hosting again, if that's an option.
4. I don't think there's a need for both a 21st century decade challenge and an additional themed TSDPT 21st century challenge.
5. DtC is fluid, dependent on TSPDT updating, but the last two years' nominations have begun on the 15th and the 17th of February, respectively, nominations process runs one month, voting lasts another month, so, if next year's is approximately the same time schedule, and if we need a 1st of the month to last of the month scheduling, March would probably be the best place for a DtC nomination challenge. Nominations were locked in by mid-March this year. The unofficial one I ran this year lasted 2/19-4/25, just for reference's sake.
1. Cool.

2. Cool.

3. Sounds okay to me. We can probably even pencil USSR/Russia in for January unless somebody has another country that they feel would be more appropriate there.

4. Yeah, I found that interesting. One option would be to merge TSPDT and TSPDT 21st Century... but if we do that, working out which runner-up to add into the mix could open up a can of worms. DTC is the repeat runner-up; for new Challenge ideas, Cannes and One per Year are tied first place runners-up. I would like to hear what everybody else thinks about having two 21st Century Challenges. I don't mind it, but I understand how it sounds a little bit like doubling up.

5. Well, we could do March for DTC nominees if we shift Directed by Women to a different month for next year. How does everyone feel about this?
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#6

Post by maxwelldeux » November 3rd, 2018, 5:41 am

In no particular order, here are my thoughts:

- Snap polls to break ties are fine to me, if needed.
- I'm not in favor of a 21st Century and a TSPDT 21st Century - that seems like doubling up.
- I'm in favor of expanding TSPDT (including merging with TSPDT 21st Cent). Several folks around here have made a concerted effort to work on and finish that list, so restricting it to that one list might alienate some people.
- Personally, I'm in favor of Animation over 1960s - largely because I don't like animation. It's a genre I avoid, whereas 1960s is a decade I watch movies from regardless. So I'd rather have something that gets me out of my comfort zone.
- My sense from the doubles/triples discussion - we shouldn't go out of our way to avoid it. But we also shouldn't go out of our way to make it easy. For example, last year we deliberately put Western/Italy/Grindhouse all in the same month (May) so the entire Spaghetti Western genre would count as a triple. Similar issue with China/HK/Taiwan and Action in the same month. This year, we just don't make that effort.
- That said, I'd suggest putting Unofficial and Low IMDB up against earlier decade challenges - plenty of opportunities for doubles+, but it requires a bit more effort and motivation.
- If we do combine TSPDT and TSPDT21st, I'd add in Cult/Grindhouse/Drive-In - most votes that's not DtC (which is already in).
- On scheduling, I like where you have tentatively slotted things. I like continuing traditions where they exist. I really like keeping Directed by Women in Women's History Month; I'd rather move DtC to April; perhaps the deadline there could be extended a few days to the end of the month?
- UK/Ireland combining is fine with me.
- My (slightly unconventional) suggestion would be to randomize the country scheduling - put the twelve countries in a spreadsheet, pair with with a randomly generated number, then sort - lowest = Jan, second lowest = Feb, etc. We could then schedule the others from there.

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#7

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 6:50 am

Interesting if a little disappointing results.

How about dispensing with Czech/Slovak and Poland since they are both in Eastern Europe? Iran or Mexico could then be the sixth option (I would favour Iran). Having one of them would add more in terms of scope and breadth to 2019's offerings.

I'd select animation over the 1960s, if only to add more variety to the schedule. A poll might be the most democratic way to do this though.

Not really necessary to have TSPDT and TSPDT 21st Century, is it? Merge them I would say and promote one of Cult/Grindhouse/Drive-in, In Competition at Cannes, One Film from Each Year (probably my fave out of the three but the first of the three would appear to be the consensus one to sub in).

Oh, and I'm all for doubles and triples. That's one element that makes these challenges so much fun.

:cheers:
That's all, folks!

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#8

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 6:55 am

maxwelldeux wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 5:41 am
- Snap polls to break ties are fine to me, if needed.
- Personally, I'm in favor of Animation over 1960s - largely because I don't like animation. It's a genre I avoid, whereas 1960s is a decade I watch movies from regardless. So I'd rather have something that gets me out of my comfort zone.
I'll give it at least another 24 hours (maybe a bit longer) and see how the discussion pans out, but yeah, if we cannot reach an agreement on whether it is more logical to allow the 1960s or Animation, a snap poll is probably the best way to determine what to do. And heh, a large number of Official List animations are thoroughly mediocre, though that's because anything reasonably popular with the general public manages to creep onto the Box Office lists.
maxwelldeux wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 5:41 am
- I'm not in favor of a 21st Century and a TSPDT 21st Century - that seems like doubling up.
- I'm in favor of expanding TSPDT (including merging with TSPDT 21st Cent). Several folks around here have made a concerted effort to work on and finish that list, so restricting it to that one list might alienate some people.
- If we do combine TSPDT and TSPDT21st, I'd add in Cult/Grindhouse/Drive-In - most votes that's not DtC (which is already in).
Doubling the Canon is not already in. There's a big difference between DTC nominees and the films in the Official iCM list. And the films in the Official List are only revoted in (5 year?) cycles, so the DTC nominees would not cover around 80% of the Official List.

Anyway, if we do combine TSPDT and TSPDT21st, I would probably be tempted to give one of the new theme runners-up a go instead in order to get "new blood" into the mix. The big issue with that is that In Competition at Cannes and One Film Per Year received equal support, so determining which of them to green light would be a discussion in itself. I'd probably go for In Competition at Cannes since it missed out on making the cut for the 2018 Schedule by only one vote, so it's evidently a pretty popular idea, but whether or not that's something that should be considered, I don't know. And we're not even sure yet if we want to combine the two TSPDT Challenges.
maxwelldeux wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 5:41 am
- My sense from the doubles/triples discussion - we shouldn't go out of our way to avoid it. But we also shouldn't go out of our way to make it easy. For example, last year we deliberately put Western/Italy/Grindhouse all in the same month (May) so the entire Spaghetti Western genre would count as a triple. Similar issue with China/HK/Taiwan and Action in the same month. This year, we just don't make that effort.
- That said, I'd suggest putting Unofficial and Low IMDB up against earlier decade challenges - plenty of opportunities for doubles+, but it requires a bit more effort and motivation.
- On scheduling, I like where you have tentatively slotted things. I like continuing traditions where they exist. I really like keeping Directed by Women in Women's History Month; I'd rather move DtC to April; perhaps the deadline there could be extended a few days to the end of the month?
All sounds okay. Somebody would have to appeal to Angel Glez though if we want to go down the pathway of having the DTC Nominee Challenge in April. He might oblige. I mean, it will certainly mean greater participation in the DTC exercise.
maxwelldeux wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 5:41 am
- UK/Ireland combining is fine with me.
- My (slightly unconventional) suggestion would be to randomize the country scheduling - put the twelve countries in a spreadsheet, pair with with a randomly generated number, then sort - lowest = Jan, second lowest = Feb, etc. We could then schedule the others from there.
Mm, I dunno. I think we should perhaps plot in the countries last once we have the other two columns sorted. One thing that I would appeal for though is to NOT have AU/NZ/Oceania in January again since we already complaints about the two Challenges (2018 and 2019) being so close together. Maybe move the Oceanic Challenge into the second half the year?
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#9

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 7:03 am

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 6:50 am
How about dispensing with Czech/Slovak and Poland since they are both in Eastern Europe? Iran or Mexico could then be the sixth option (I would favour Iran). Having one of them would add more in terms of scope and breadth to 2019's offerings.
But Mexico is also covered in the Latin America option. Unless we change Latin America to South America and have Mexico by itself? But I don't know if that is logical. We can always have an East Europe Minus Czech/Slovak Challenge. I don't know. I'm open to ideas about this. Mario probably has the right idea about how to hand the overlapping regions issue next year.
RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 6:50 am
Not really necessary to have TSPDT and TSPDT 21st Century, is it? Merge them I would say and promote one of Cult/Grindhouse/Drive-in, In Competition at Cannes, One Film from Each Year (probably my fave out of the three but the first of the three would appear to be the consensus one to sub in).
I wouldn't support promoting C/G/D-I when DTC received more votes in that poll. Besides, Daviddoes already said that he will happily run it as an Unofficial Challenge next year.

But yes, I would support letting either In Competition at Cannes or One Film from Each Year in if we do combine the TSPDT options. Doing this will ensure that there are still six new Theme Challenge options next year. Only question is how to determine whether it should be Cannes or One Per Year. Maybe a second snap poll? :shrug:
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#10

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 7:14 am

I would favour Iran over Mexico for the very reason that Latin America would cover Mexico. When there's cross-over, I'm all for giving new and popular options a whirl. The possibility of Eastern Europe and Iran sounds exciting and wide-ranging to me. In terms of Eastern Europe, I wouldn't be in favour of excluding any countries as that would diminish the challenge.

Sorry, yes, I missed DTC when I scanned through the vote results. I take your point.

A snap poll between In Competition at Cannes and One Film from Each Year would get my backing.
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#11

Post by albajos » November 3rd, 2018, 7:27 am

The point to expanding to 36 challenges was to get more variety.
So if there is a tie, the thing not being held before or being held the least amount of times should always have priority.

Never expand on already long lists. The one challenge most complained was to broad this year was 1980, 1990, and 21st century.
It just ends up with whatever you see that month will be part of a challenge.

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#12

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 7:44 am

albajos wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 7:27 am
The point to expanding to 36 challenges was to get more variety.
So if there is a tie, the thing not being held before or being held the least amount of times should always have priority.
Yup - exactly my point on choosing 1960s over Animation, though you've managed to say it more eloquently than me. :unsure:
albajos wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 7:27 am
Never expand on already long lists. The one challenge most complained was to broad this year was 1980, 1990, and 21st century.
It just ends up with whatever you see that month will be part of a challenge.
Mm - that's a pretty good argument in favour of keep TSPDT and TSPDT 21st Cent separate.

And regarding max's reservations about the TSDPT being too constrictive a challenge on its own, we could stipulate that the Challenge is for the entire top 2000.
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#13

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 8:02 am

How big a pool of films is in TSPDT 21st Century? Is it really expansive and wide-ranging enough for a challenge on its own?
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#14

Post by 72allinncallme » November 3rd, 2018, 8:37 am

Animation over 1960s The latter is just a stupid decade challenge. A filler of sort.

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#15

Post by zzzorf » November 3rd, 2018, 9:42 am

I'm in favour of snap poles to fix any ties, Gives the people who voted for both a chance to choose which one was their first choice.

Neither Animation/60's should be in since by theory only 4 should go through from their poll since there is already 2 going through on automatic selection. thus the poll should be Mystery/Romance.

Seems a bit redundant to have a country specific month and then an area specific month when the country is in the area.

Even more redundant to have 2 TSPDT challenges.

Academy Awards nominees makes sense to be in February for those who watch the new ones before the awards are given (for me personally it doesn't matter since I watch them later in the year)

I was going to throw up the idea for the Conquering the World challenge to be in March, the same time as the Letterboxd "March Around the World" challenge I partake in but alas it looks like Women Directors beat me to it already. Oh Well.

<400 checks, Unofficial and low IMDb really need a few months between them to allow time to watch differentiating films (well for me at least, you guys probably watch more list related movies, I just watch random stuff). Also it makes sense from month to month moving to different continents with the country challenges to allow differences and staggering the decade challenges.

Maybe conquering the World should be in a month with the biggest amount of countries in an area challenge for a nice head start in it.

I think that is it for now

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#16

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 10:42 am

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 8:02 am
How big a pool of films is in TSPDT 21st Century? Is it really expansive and wide-ranging enough for a challenge on its own?
It only has 10% less titles than the Rosenbaum Essentials list, so I would say 'yes' - but we will probably end up merging the two options anyway if that is what everyone wants to do.
72allinncallme wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 8:37 am
Animation over 1960s The latter is just a stupid decade challenge. A filler of sort.
Not a very convincing argument, but your stance is noted. ;)
zzzorf wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 9:42 am
Neither Animation/60's should be in since by theory only 4 should go through from their poll since there is already 2 going through on automatic selection. thus the poll should be Mystery/Romance.
Interesting viewpoint. I am not against it. What does everyone else think?
zzzorf wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 9:42 am
I was going to throw up the idea for the Conquering the World challenge to be in March, the same time as the Letterboxd "March Around the World" challenge I partake in but alas it looks like Women Directors beat me to it already. Oh Well.
Note the words "extremely preliminary" in the OP. The Schedule is still subject to change. And we might whack Female Directors out of March to make room for the DTC Nominees. Depends on whether or not Angel Glez is happy to extend the voting (not nominating) deadline for the DTC until the end of April.

Can someone PM Angel about this and ask him? I have a lot on my plate at the moment and probably won't get a chance to do so until some time next week.
zzzorf wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 9:42 am
Maybe conquering the World should be in a month with the biggest amount of countries in an area challenge for a nice head start in it.
Interesting idea - though all depends on how firm a stance we are going to take on making doubles and triples less achievable next year. I don't object to the idea.
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#17

Post by hurluberlu » November 3rd, 2018, 10:56 am

How do we break the tie between Animation and 1960s?
Snap poll.
Which Challenges do we want to run side-by-side? We have discussed trying to purposely schedule things for next year to make doubles and triples less achievable (thus creating greater diversity in what we watch).
Make doubles and triples less achievable.
Do we want to keep the regular schedule (Silents in September, Docs in December, etc) or do we want to shake things up?
]Keep.
Do we know in which month the DTC will be run? Obviously we need to know that before scheduling in the DTC nominees option.
We should stick with DTC Schedule even if it means having this challenge running over two months and having 2.5 chalenges in Feb and 3.5 in March (With DTC nom mid-Feb/Mid March)
Is everyone happy with my merging of the UK and Ireland? This idea was floated on the other threads.
Yes

We should merge Eastern EU and Czech/Slovak, TSDPT and 21st TSDPT or 21st Century and 21st TSDPT.
I am ok with Korean Peninsula.

Overall disappointed there is so little from all our new suggestions that made it through ; I am still for leaving spots to totally new stuff, in particular within Themes and sub genres and less in decades and countries.
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#18

Post by Melvelet » November 3rd, 2018, 11:29 am

Eastern EU and Czech/Slovak should be two challenges. Czechoslovakia had a large enough quality output to deserve a challenge every couple of years or so

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#19

Post by Melvelet » November 3rd, 2018, 11:36 am

About 21st Century: It seems a bit redundant to have two challenges covering basically the same but that's what was voted and most importantly:
The 21st Century almost consists of 2 complete decades now, so I don't see why these two decades should only deserve a single combined challenge. Either we split it up into two decade challenges or we keep it 21st Century + TSP 21st century. I'm fine either way.

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#20

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 11:49 am

Melvelet wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 11:29 am
Eastern EU and Czech/Slovak should be two challenges. Czechoslovakia had a large enough quality output to deserve a challenge every couple of years or so
Personally speaking, I agree about the cinematic output of Czechoslovakia being large enough and worthwhile enough to warrant its own Challenge.

And those complaining about Czech/Slovak and East Europe being separate seem to forget that there is a precedent for doing this:

The Asian Challenge - viewtopic.php?t=3277 - was run only just over a year ago with similar exclusions for big countries.
Melvelet wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 11:36 am
About 21st Century: It seems a bit redundant to have two challenges covering basically the same but that's what was voted and most importantly:
The 21st Century almost consists of 2 complete decades now, so I don't see why these two decades should only deserve a single combined challenge. Either we split it up into two decade challenges or we keep it 21st Century + TSP 21st century. I'm fine either way.
Next year we should definitely separate the 2000s and 2010s in the voting process, but nobody thought to do it until now.

So here's an idea... rather than hold a poll to vote on 60s vs Animation, we could instead go for neither and have separate 2000s and 2010s Challenges. Just an idea.
hurluberlu wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 10:56 am
Do we know in which month the DTC will be run? Obviously we need to know that before scheduling in the DTC nominees option.
We should stick with DTC Schedule even if it means having this challenge running over two months and having 2.5 chalenges in Feb and 3.5 in March (With DTC nom mid-Feb/Mid March)
This sounds incredibly complex - all the more so since DTC voting usually begins in February and ends in April, so it would expand across three different months.

Honestly, I think ANGEL would be flexible if we asked him politely. I mean, he always wants more DTC participants, and what better way than an entire Official Challenge dedicated to the project held in April?
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#21

Post by flaiky » November 3rd, 2018, 12:05 pm

Definitely merge Czech/Slovak with Eastern Europe and bump up Iran.

Definitely merge the two 21st Century challenges and bump up a new theme. Lots of decade/era challenges already and the two other options (especially Cannes) add more variety.
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#22

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 2:46 pm

flaiky wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 12:05 pm
Definitely merge Czech/Slovak with Eastern Europe and bump up Iran.

Definitely merge the two 21st Century challenges and bump up a new theme. Lots of decade/era challenges already and the two other options (especially Cannes) add more variety.
Nice. Gets a +1 from me.
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#23

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 3:06 pm

Just looking back through this mulling over the totals and something caught my eye, Sol. You say that in each section there is a half-and-half split between repeat challenges and non-2018 challenges. Due to the permanency granted to Noir and Horror there is a 7-5 split in favour of repeat challenges in the Genre/Decades section (assuming one of 1960s or Animation falls by the wayside). Surely, if there are going to be permanent challenges, it would make sense to hit the repeating side for a spot and keep a 50-50 split. With two permanent challenges here, that would leave four spots to fill and would not affect the slots for new challenges not undertaken in 2018.

Here's my thinking: Permanency status shouldn't affect the number of spots available for new challenges. That would mean in this case dispensing with both 1960s and Animation. Have a 6-6 split. Merge Mystery with Suspense, Thriller and give the sixth spot to Romance.

Wouldn't that be fairer to ensure an even distribution between new and returning favourites?
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#24

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 3:18 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 3:06 pm
Just looking back through this mulling over the totals and something caught my eye, Sol. You say that in each section there is a half-and-half split between repeat challenges and non-2018 challenges. Due to the permanency granted to Noir and Horror there is a 7-5 split in favour of repeat challenges in the Genre/Decades section (assuming one of 1960s or Animation falls by the wayside). Surely, if there are going to be permanent challenges, it would make sense to hit the repeating side for a spot and keep a 50-50 split. With two permanent challenges here, that would leave four spots to fill and would not affect the slots for new challenges not undertaken in 2018.

Here's my thinking: Permanency status shouldn't affect the number of spots available for new challenges. That would mean in this case dispensing with both 1960s and Animation. Have a 6-6 split. Merge Mystery with Suspense, Thriller and give the sixth spot to Romance.

Wouldn't that be fairer to ensure an even distribution between new and returning favourites?
That's exactly what zzzorf already pointed out above, but I guess things sometimes get a little lost with so many posts to scroll through:
sol wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 10:42 am
zzzorf wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 9:42 am
Neither Animation/60's should be in since by theory only 4 should go through from their poll since there is already 2 going through on automatic selection. thus the poll should be Mystery/Romance.
Interesting viewpoint. I am not against it. What does everyone else think?
So yeah, giving the blank spot to Mystery or Romance might more sense than giving it to Animation or the 1960s.

Big question is whether we are prepared to merge three genres together for Mystery, Thriller and Suspense. Sounds like a lot, but I guess the genres do often overlap. What does everyone else think?
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#25

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 3:23 pm

We need someone to contact Angel and asking him if he is prepared to extend the 2019 DTC voting until the end of April next year. In the meantime, I am going to flick Female Directors out of March, since while it would be nice to coincide the challenge with Women's History Month, it's not essential.

I'll also amend the OP to include some of the suggestions that have arisen over the past 12 hours.
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#26

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 3:26 pm

albajos wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 7:27 am
Never expand on already long lists. The one challenge most complained was to broad this year was 1980, 1990, and 21st century.
It just ends up with whatever you see that month will be part of a challenge.
I think this is in reference to merging TSPDT 21st Century with either the 21st Century Challenge or the TSPDT Challenge. I don't think it is a terribly good comparison myself, frankly. The 1990s and 21st Century Challenge that was so widely encompassing and well-participated-in this year allowed participants to watch absolutely anything produced over that 28-year period. It probably was too broad in scope but it's better to be too broad than too narrow. Combining TSPDT 21st Century and TSPDT would still offer a relatively small pool of several thousand films. I can think of several challengers who might find it difficult to come up with viewings new to them from such a combined challenge. It is worth noting these limiting factors that might be at play for some potential participants and strive for challenges that are focused but as broad in scope as possible.
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#27

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 3:45 pm

Anybody, anybody? Doesn't Mystery, Thrills and Suspense sound positively tantalising?
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#28

Post by OldAle1 » November 3rd, 2018, 4:08 pm

I'm hoping to wean myself away from my current (for me) frenetic pace of trying to work on every challenge, so perhaps I should hope that the choices picked are ones I don't particularly like (sports every month!). But fuck it, a couple of comments -

COUNTRIES - one thing to think about in regards to Iran vs Mexico vs East Europe/Czech-Slovak/Poland, etc, is that Iranian films are almost never co-productions - Iran is just Iran. So an Iranian challenge is going to have more people focused on "pure" Iranian cinema by default - which I rather like. Not so with most other countries in the mix - all the Latin American countries offer lots of co-productions, as do the Eastern European nations to a lesser extent. Heck, France/Italy are probably the biggest co-producing pair, or at least they're up there with the Chinese countries and US/Canada or US/UK. So what I''m saying is having an Iran challenge makes more sense, from my POV, than a Mexico challenge for example - why not keep Mexico within a Latin American challenge?

GENRES - I don't see a whole lot of value in decade challenges myself, just a personal preference, and much less so with more recent decades which have a vast percentage of films that people would watch anyway. Decades pre-1950 or so, sure but later ones, fairly pointless IMO; like having a "USA" challenge. I'd pick musicals over romance or mystery I suppose; I like crime/gangster but there's a lot of overlap with noir of course, is there a point to having that separate? Then again I''d like noir to stay "pure" as pure as it can be anyway.

THEME - let's make the low rating challenge a January fixture, shall we? One film from each year has the same problem as decade challenges - too broad & easy. Not that challenges should be really "hard" but a challenge that's open to literally every film in history? It's not like most people on this forum have an actual problem watching a few silent films - or a few contemporary films. The operative would is "challenge" after all, and that isn't one apart from the typical let's-see-who-can-average-7-films-per-day which happens anyway. I guess watching 2 feature-length films from every year since 1912 or whatever would be an achievement but it's certainly not one I care about. Also not super-keen about Cannes or Oscars challenges which offer the opposite problem from the year/decade challenges: too limited to specific kinds of films. And for those of us who may have watched a large percentage of stuff in one of those categories there wouldn't be much but crap left. The UNESCO list, of the runners-up there, looks the most intriguing to me and rather varied, and obviously few participants would have trouble finding films to watch.

Or to put it all more succinctly:

Year/decade challenges are stoopit, Iran rocks, bring on the bad movies.

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#29

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 4:15 pm

I want musicals too but I don't see any way that can materialise (unless one pairs Mystery with Thriller and Suspense and Romance with Musical). Nah, probably not really feasible. Got pretty close though.
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#30

Post by sol » November 3rd, 2018, 4:41 pm

OK, some brief thoughts as I prepare to make my way to bed, having spent over 12 hours navigating this thread, in between doing other bits and pieces:
  • I would prefer to resolve the current debates through discussion rather than snap polls (we've already had preliminary polls as well as ''actual'' polls - it all seems a bit much) but of course if everybody would prefer to go back to the polls I can of course organise it
  • I'm leaning towards letting Iran in and merging Czech/Slovak because, even though there is a precedent here to host region polls excluding particular countries, almost everybody here seems keen on exploring Iran
  • I'm leaning towards Roger's suggestion of leaving out both Animation and the 1960s, merging Mystery with Suspense/Thriller and awarding the remaining Genre slot to Romance as a new Challenge idea
  • I'm leaning towards merging TSPDT and TSPDT 21st Cent since this is what most people seem to want, and promoting Cannes or One Per Year to fill the remaining slot; we might have to go back to the polls to decide which though
But yeah, by all means feel free to chime in here if you haven't already. No decisions need to be made in a big hurry. I'm just basing the above possible decisions on ideas that seem to be trending at the moment.
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#31

Post by maxwelldeux » November 3rd, 2018, 5:12 pm

sol wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 4:41 pm
OK, some brief thoughts as I prepare to make my way to bed, having spent over 12 hours navigating this thread, in between doing other bits and pieces:
  • I would prefer to resolve the current debates through discussion rather than snap polls (we've already had preliminary polls as well as ''actual'' polls - it all seems a bit much) but of course if everybody would prefer to go back to the polls I can of course organise it
  • I'm leaning towards letting Iran in and merging Czech/Slovak because, even though there is a precedent here to host region polls excluding particular countries, almost everybody here seems keen on exploring Iran
  • I'm leaning towards Roger's suggestion of leaving out both Animation and the 1960s, merging Mystery with Suspense/Thriller and awarding the remaining Genre slot to Romance as a new Challenge idea
  • I'm leaning towards merging TSPDT and TSPDT 21st Cent since this is what most people seem to want, and promoting Cannes or One Per Year to fill the remaining slot; we might have to go back to the polls to decide which though
But yeah, by all means feel free to chime in here if you haven't already. No decisions need to be made in a big hurry. I'm just basing the above possible decisions on ideas that seem to be trending at the moment.
I'm cool with all that. If we're merging Mystery/Suspense/Thriller, I'd suggest putting that in May(ish) so as not to put it close to the awfully similar Noir. I don't feel strongly about Cannes vs. One Per Year, as long as there is a conveniently located list for Cannes.

Nice work on this so far, sol!

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#32

Post by Fergenaprido » November 3rd, 2018, 5:21 pm

Echoing a lot that's already been said, but throwing my support behind a few of the suggestions:
- make the South Korea challenge a Korean challenge to include North Korea and pre-war cinema
- Eastern European challenge should be merged with Czech/Slovak challenge, but should EXCLUDE Russian/USSR films (doesn't make sense to me that the same country/region would be covered by two separate challenges in one year)
- bump up Iran to the schedule, since Mexico is already included in the Latin America challenge
- I prefer animation over 1960s, but I agree that it should be neither. Instead, merge mystery with thriller/suspense and bump up romance to the schedule.
- agreed with the UK & Ireland merge
- make the Latin America challenge a Latin America + Caribbean challenge - it's the same thing we did when we ran the poll, and the Caribbean is never going to get it's own challenge.

Lastly, do we not want to start having the discussion on which polls we want to run next year? Having a the poll and challenge schedules aligned seems like it increases participation in both, from my point of view.

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#33

Post by jvv » November 3rd, 2018, 5:23 pm

hurluberlu wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 10:56 am
Overall disappointed there is so little from all our new suggestions that made it through ; I am still for leaving spots to totally new stuff, in particular within Themes and sub genres and less in decades and countries.
I haven't been doing any official challenges lately, mainly because I'm trying to finish some long running ongoing challenges, but I agree with hurluberlu that I would prefer more themes/subgenre challenges over country and especially decade challenges.

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#34

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 5:51 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 5:21 pm
- Eastern European challenge should be merged with Czech/Slovak challenge, but should EXCLUDE Russian/USSR films (doesn't make sense to me that the same country/region would be covered by two separate challenges in one year)
I agree with everything else you say, Fergenaprido, but I do just want to voice my opposition to an element of this point. Russian films should of course be omitted but I think it would be extraordinarily insensitive to not include the pre-independence cinemas of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc. in an Eastern European Challenge. The films of Talinnfilm, Rigas kinostudija, etc. are from film-makers from these particular nations and these films deserve to be heralded, championed and highlighted. It is a great tragedy, I think, that the blanket use of the term 'U.S.S.R.' often serves to bury these films among Russian films. When one searches on IMDb for Latvian, Estonian, Lithuanian films, Soviet-era productions from these places often don't show up. These nations were invaded and occupied. By including pre-independence films in such a challenge, it demonstrates an understanding and openness to exploring, examining and reintegrating the cinematic output of these nations as they navigated their way through these difficult times.
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#35

Post by OldAle1 » November 3rd, 2018, 7:00 pm

jvv wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 5:23 pm
hurluberlu wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 10:56 am
Overall disappointed there is so little from all our new suggestions that made it through ; I am still for leaving spots to totally new stuff, in particular within Themes and sub genres and less in decades and countries.
I haven't been doing any official challenges lately, mainly because I'm trying to finish some long running ongoing challenges, but I agree with hurluberlu that I would prefer more themes/subgenre challenges over country and especially decade challenges.
Agree with both of you but I think it's a lost cause. Seems most people prefer "easy" challenges - by which I mean challenges where the number of choices is enormous. Decade challenges, genres like horror or sci-fi, and countries like France, Japan, Italy and the UK all offer the ability to find thousands or tens of thousands of choices. Time travel (one of my suggestions) or banned films aren't nearly as large, and even those categories that are large that didn't do well - coming of age for example - just aren't as obvious I think. What's a coming of age film? Not sure. What's a Japanese film? What's a 1960s film? Pretty easy to figure out. And lots of people don't give a shit about say, book adaptations or "winter" films or whatever - or perhaps the votes for these themes are just more split. I dunno.

Maybe the answer is just more personal, unofficial challenges, since we''re never all going to get all the official ones we want. I'm thinking I'm going to do one next year, just have to decide what it's going to be.

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#36

Post by psychotronicbeatnik » November 3rd, 2018, 9:29 pm

I hate to lose both animation and 1960s - two of my favorite challenges - but I agree with Roger and whoever else raised the point that Horror & Noir being permanent tips the scale in favor of previous years challenges, so I support the Mystery/Suspense/Thriller and Romance option.

For me the value of the decade challenges is just taking the time to really immerse myself in that time and place - really the value of a lot of these challenges and that's why doing three challenges a month detracts from that unless there are some points of similarity. That's what makes the doubles and triples so appealing to me - aside from the points value. But there's no reason to program for them or against them - let them fall where they will.

It seems to me that Banned/Video Nasty is just a more narrow definition of the Cult/Grindhouse theme but if that's what people want that's cool.

Like Oldale, I'm happy to see some choices make the final list that I am not interested in as I hope to avoid getting sucked into doing all the challenges next year.

Putting this all together is a helluva lotta work and I applaud sol for taking on that project. :cheers:

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#37

Post by blocho » November 3rd, 2018, 10:13 pm

There's a certain justice to putting low imdb challenge in January since this is when studios always bury their crap movies.

Anyway, I think most people have put in their two cents. Sol, I'm happy for you to make an executive decision based on all the feedback. Or give it the old democratic try, with the inspiration of Please Vote for Me's wildly successful class monitor election.

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#38

Post by albajos » November 3rd, 2018, 10:34 pm

This isn't the electoral college. Do not bypass the democartic vote and throw away Animation and/or 1960s. Then it wouldn't be any need for polls if you don't respect the majority.
(I voted for neither, but we have had a democratic process, and I'll bend to the will of the people)

I really hate these threads where all just say what they prefer and don't care about the actual result. The poll is over, this is only a place a to discuss some ground rules, and to me those where set two years ago.

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#39

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » November 3rd, 2018, 10:49 pm

albajos wrote:
November 3rd, 2018, 10:34 pm
This isn't the electoral college. Do not bypass the democartic vote and throw away Animation and/or 1960s. Then it wouldn't be any need for polls if you don't respect the majority.
(I voted for neither, but we have had a democratic process, and I'll bend to the will of the people)

I really hate these threads where all just say what they prefer and don't care about the actual result. The poll is over, this is only a place a to discuss some ground rules, and to me those where set two years ago.
It was made clear in the polls that the split between repeat challenges and new challenges wasn't copper-fastened. Ratios of 6-6, 7-5, 8-4 were mentioned. I think it's perfectly reasonable to explore potentialities and possibilities now that the six polls have come to a close.
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#40

Post by albajos » November 3rd, 2018, 10:56 pm

Animation with 30 vs Mystery with 20 votes is completely fair?

No, this is just you trying to find loopholes to fit your favorites.

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