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iCM Forum World Cup - Season 3 - Round 1 schedule

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iCM Forum World Cup - Season 3 - Round 1 schedule

#81

Post by maxwelldeux » December 18th, 2017, 8:15 am

RogerTheMovieManiac88 on Dec 17 2017, 11:51:11 PM wrote:I was under the impression as well that the top two from each group progressed, rather as in major soccer tournaments. Perhaps Joachim can clarify?
It is - the top two from each group move on. That much is clear from the first post in the preparation topic.

What I think joachimt has written out there is the scoring mechanism to determine winners - each group will have a winner and a second place, and he lays out how ranks are determined and how ties are broken, and how it's handled in the event the tie can't be broken. Admittedly, it's not super clear from that text that two countries move on, but they do, and that info is around.

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#82

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » December 18th, 2017, 8:27 am

maxwelldeux on Dec 18 2017, 01:15:11 AM wrote:
RogerTheMovieManiac88 on Dec 17 2017, 11:51:11 PM wrote:I was under the impression as well that the top two from each group progressed, rather as in major soccer tournaments. Perhaps Joachim can clarify?
It is - the top two from each group move on. That much is clear from the first post in the preparation topic.

What I think joachimt has written out there is the scoring mechanism to determine winners - each group will have a winner and a second place, and he lays out how ranks are determined and how ties are broken, and how it's handled in the event the tie can't be broken. Admittedly, it's not super clear from that text that two countries move on, but they do, and that info is around.
Aha, cheers Maxwell! Silly me. Yes, that makes sense now.

Loving the Documentary Challenge and all its contributions, by the way. I've seen a few over the last while. Must add them to the thread when I get a chance!

:cheers:
That's all, folks!

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#83

Post by maxwelldeux » December 18th, 2017, 8:30 am

RogerTheMovieManiac88 on Dec 18 2017, 01:27:31 AM wrote:
maxwelldeux on Dec 18 2017, 01:15:11 AM wrote:
RogerTheMovieManiac88 on Dec 17 2017, 11:51:11 PM wrote:I was under the impression as well that the top two from each group progressed, rather as in major soccer tournaments. Perhaps Joachim can clarify?
It is - the top two from each group move on. That much is clear from the first post in the preparation topic.

What I think joachimt has written out there is the scoring mechanism to determine winners - each group will have a winner and a second place, and he lays out how ranks are determined and how ties are broken, and how it's handled in the event the tie can't be broken. Admittedly, it's not super clear from that text that two countries move on, but they do, and that info is around.
Aha, cheers Maxwell! Silly me. Yes, that makes sense now.

Loving the Documentary Challenge and all its contributions, by the way. I've seen a few over the last while. Must add them to the thread when I get a chance!

:cheers:
Thanks! And please do post them! :thumbsup:

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#84

Post by Eve-Lang-El-Coup » December 18th, 2017, 9:42 am

Looking at my group, I'm utterly screwed. I guess that's where not feeling the urge to watch movies gets you.

Oh and most of the movies I haven't seen look appealing.
Last edited by Eve-Lang-El-Coup on December 18th, 2017, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#85

Post by jvv » December 18th, 2017, 10:25 am

I've only seen 2. Got my work cut out for me. :run:

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#86

Post by maxwelldeux » December 18th, 2017, 10:28 am

jvv on Dec 18 2017, 03:25:25 AM wrote:I've only seen 2. Got my work cut out for me. :run:
Oh good - I've seen only one. I thought I was the only one down this low.

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#87

Post by Gershwin » December 18th, 2017, 10:38 am

clemmetarey on Dec 17 2017, 07:49:00 AM wrote:
monty on Dec 17 2017, 07:35:30 AM wrote:
Angel Glez on Dec 17 2017, 07:30:49 AM wrote:Spanish subs were done with love and care. :innocent:
Well, the vast majority here will want the Engish subs, which sadly are vastly lacking. Personally, I'd never nominate a film with machine translated English subs.
Well, I do not remember the subs impacting in any way my viewing of the film to be honest. I wouldn't have picked it otherwise.
I didn't have any trouble while watching it, as far as I remember. I might have different subs. Will look it up one of these days.
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#88

Post by Gershwin » December 18th, 2017, 10:39 am

Oh, and thanks for all the work you've already put in this, JT. Much appreciated!
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#89

Post by Armoreska » December 18th, 2017, 10:42 am

There are actually russian subs for Padurea spânzuratilor (sounds like a name for a kitchen appliance), so I might be of help if find time
Last edited by Armoreska on December 18th, 2017, 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#90

Post by Armoreska » December 18th, 2017, 10:45 am

blocho on Dec 17 2017, 11:46:37 PM wrote:
Armoreska on Dec 17 2017, 03:53:59 PM wrote:Here's managers wall of shame from last WC
mightysparks (15)
sacmersault (15)
kingink (14)
bjornam (13)
blocho (10)
Melvelet (9)
Daviddoes (7)
Yeesh. I work 80 hours a week in a public service job dedicated to restoring some hope and opportunity to a society falling apart because of racial animus and social inequality.

And now I get a wall of shame because I don't have the time to properly indulge my sole remaining source of pleasure in the world?

I'm going to carry this cross like an albatross around my neck. :rolleyes:
Well now we know who the real local hero is. How do you do 80 hours? I work 40 at most, and I'm dead by the weekend.
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currently working towards a vegan/low waste world + thru such film lists (besides TV): 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Luis Bunuel, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#91

Post by Gershwin » December 18th, 2017, 10:49 am

Armoreska on Dec 18 2017, 03:45:12 AM wrote:
blocho on Dec 17 2017, 11:46:37 PM wrote:
Armoreska on Dec 17 2017, 03:53:59 PM wrote:Here's managers wall of shame from last WC
mightysparks (15)
sacmersault (15)
kingink (14)
bjornam (13)
blocho (10)
Melvelet (9)
Daviddoes (7)
Yeesh. I work 80 hours a week in a public service job dedicated to restoring some hope and opportunity to a society falling apart because of racial animus and social inequality.

And now I get a wall of shame because I don't have the time to properly indulge my sole remaining source of pleasure in the world?

I'm going to carry this cross like an albatross around my neck. :rolleyes:
Well now we know who the real local hero is. How do you do 80 hours? I work 40 at most, and I'm dead by the weekend.
Does 40 hours of regular work and 40 hours of raising future generations also count as an 80 hours job? :innocent:
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#92

Post by joachimt » December 18th, 2017, 2:49 pm

sacmersault on Dec 17 2017, 10:45:24 PM wrote:
joachimt on Dec 17 2017, 07:02:38 AM wrote:Welcome to the schedule of iCM Forum World Cup - Season 3 - Round 1. If you don't know what this is. Read the preparation topic.

Rules in the group phase:
- You must watch all 4 films of a match before you vote.
- To vote, rank the 4 films from most favorite to least favorite. (note: you're ranking the individual films, not the countries)
- The winner of the match is the film that beats the other 3 films head-to-head. If A "beats" B, it means that A is ranked higher than B more often than B is ranked higher than A.
- If there's no winner using this method, it'll be decided by average rank.
- If there's no winner using average rank, there'll be a 3 day extension of the match hoping for new votes.
- Don't vote in this thread. Each match will have its own thread according to the schedule.

ICM-list of all movies in this World Cup

List of all topic related to the World Cup
Round 1 scheduleShow
Group A: 2017-12-31 till 2018-1-28Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
RussiaKholodnoe leto pyatdesyat tretegoThe Cold Summer of 19531988blocholinklink
IranGavaznhaThe Deer1974zhangalanlinklink
CroatiaNe okreci se sineMy Son Don't Turn Round1956Mochardlinklink
Burkina FasoBuud Yam1997hurluberlu linklink
Group B: 2018-1-17 till 2018-2-14Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
SpainArrebatoRapture1979beavislinklink
ChinaMang jingBlind Shaft2003hurluberlulinklink
FinlandKäpy selän allaSkin, Skin1966nimimerkillinenlinklink
MalaysiaHei yan quanI Don't Want to Sleep Alone2006Fergenapridolinklink
Group C: 2018-2-4 till 2018-3-4Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
HungaryMegáll az idöTime Stands Still1982tarrlinklink
South KoreaSplash Splash Love2015mjf314linklink
RomaniaPadurea spânzuratilorForest of the Hanged1965clemmetareylinklink
Uruguay25 Watts2001toro913linklink
Group D: 2018-2-21 till 2018-3-21Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
FranceUne si jolie petite plageSuch a Pretty Little Beach1949klaus78linklink
IndiaDabbaThe Lunchbox2013tommy_leazaqlinklink
SerbiaPaviljon broj VIWard Six1973Mario Gaborovićlinklink
MaliYeelenBrightness1987Fergenapridolinklink
Group E: 2018-3-11 till 2018-4-8Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
CzechiaNeúplné zatmeníIncomplete Eclipse1983Carmel98linklink
AustraliaSamson and Delilah2009Daviddoeslinklink
LatviaMotociklu vasara1975RogerTheMovieManiac88linklink
BoliviaUkamauAnd So It Is1966burneyfanlinklink
Group F: 2018-3-28 till 2018-4-25Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
SwedenIngeborg HolmMargaret Day1913PeacefulAnarchylinklink
JapanSanbiki no samuraiThree Outlaw Samurai1964montylinklink
TurkeyBulantiNausea2015XxXApathy420XxXlinklink
LebanonWest Beyrouth (À l'abri les enfants)West Beirut1998Armoreskalinklink
Group G: 2018-4-15 till 2018-5-13Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
EnglandIce Cold in Alex1958funkybusinesslinklink
Hong KongTou zeA Simple Life2011Smooverlinklink
BulgariaRitzar bez bronyaKnight Without Armour1966Mario Gaborovićlinklink
ArgentinaLa casa del ángelEnd of Innocence1957RBGlinklink
Group H: 2018-5-2 till 2018-5-30Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
PortugalRecordações da Casa AmarelaRecollections of the Yellow House1989Pgonzalezlinklink
TaiwanWo zhe yang guo le yi shengKuei-mei, a Woman1985mjf314linklink
GeorgiaPirosmani1969tarrlinklink
MoroccoLe grand voyageThe Great Journey2004jvvlinklink
Group I: 2018-5-20 till 2018-6-17Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
PolandConstansThe Constant Factor1980sebbylinklink
USAThe Incident1967filmbanthalinklink
The NetherlandsNe me quitte pas2013Gershwinlinklink
PeruLa boca del loboIn the Mouth of the Wolf1988sacmersaultlinklink
Group J: 2018-6-6 till 2018-7-4Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
GreeceO fovosThe Fear1966tommy_leazaqlinklink
MexicoMacario1960Daviddoeslinklink
Bosnia and HerzegovinaSjecas li se Dolly Bell?Do You Remember Dolly Bell?1981Cynical Cinephilelinklink
Thailand362012Lonewolf2003linklink
Group K: 2018-6-24 till 2018-7-22Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
ItalyC'eravamo tanto amatiWe All Loved Each Other So Much1974toro913linklink
BrazilLavoura ArcaicaTo the Left of the Father2001Gorrolinklink
SwitzerlandReise der HoffnungJourney of Hope1990Nathan Treadwaylinklink
VietnamMùa len trâuThe Buffalo Boy2004Eve-Lang-El-Couplinklink
Group L: 2018-7-11 till 2018-8-8Show
CountryOriginal TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
GermanyIch war neunzehnI Was Nineteen1968Lilarcorlinklink
CanadaLes bons debarrasGood Riddance1980Armoreskalinklink
AustriaDas finstere TalThe Dark Valley2014metallerlinklink
Dominican RepublicJean Gentil2010Angel Glezlinklink
I thought 2 countries went through. From the rules it seems to say that only the winner of the group will go through.
Oops. I copied the text from last year's thread and made some adjustments, but I forgot that one. I'll change it now.
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#93

Post by Mate_cosido » December 18th, 2017, 2:53 pm

I'm really excited for this, i was considering being a manager but i was afraid i'll do something wrong, maybe next time

I've watched 12, and liked all of them, so i'm really looking forward for the rest, i was actually planning to see one for the conquer the world challenge

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#94

Post by Fergenaprido » December 18th, 2017, 3:00 pm

maxwelldeux on Dec 18 2017, 03:28:58 AM wrote:
jvv on Dec 18 2017, 03:25:25 AM wrote:I've only seen 2. Got my work cut out for me. :run:
Oh good - I've seen only one. I thought I was the only one down this low.
I've seen 5, of which 2 are my own picks. It's an increase from previous seasons, though, where I'd only seen 1 and 2 in advance.

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#95

Post by nimimerkillinen » December 18th, 2017, 5:12 pm

5 for me too of which 1 is my pick

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#96

Post by Cocoa » December 18th, 2017, 7:05 pm

I've also only seen 5.

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#97

Post by joachimt » December 18th, 2017, 8:28 pm

I updated the index.
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#98

Post by Melvelet » December 18th, 2017, 9:37 pm

Armoreska on Dec 17 2017, 04:25:00 PM wrote:
RogerTheMovieManiac88 on Dec 17 2017, 04:19:57 PM wrote:
Armoreska on Dec 17 2017, 03:53:59 PM wrote:Here's managers wall of shame from last WC
mightysparks (15)
sacmersault (15)
kingink (14)
bjornam (13)
blocho (10)
Melvelet (9)
Daviddoes (7)
What do the numbers in brackets denote?
rounds taken part in
Yeah, I'm not the overall loser! :lol:
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#99

Post by monty » December 18th, 2017, 10:34 pm

Cocoa on Dec 18 2017, 12:05:20 PM wrote:I've also only seen 5.
I've seen 23. Still a lot of promising discoveries to be made...

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#100

Post by blocho » December 19th, 2017, 7:09 am

Armoreska on Dec 18 2017, 03:45:12 AM wrote:
blocho on Dec 17 2017, 11:46:37 PM wrote:
Armoreska on Dec 17 2017, 03:53:59 PM wrote:Here's managers wall of shame from last WC
mightysparks (15)
sacmersault (15)
kingink (14)
bjornam (13)
blocho (10)
Melvelet (9)
Daviddoes (7)
Yeesh. I work 80 hours a week in a public service job dedicated to restoring some hope and opportunity to a society falling apart because of racial animus and social inequality.

And now I get a wall of shame because I don't have the time to properly indulge my sole remaining source of pleasure in the world?

I'm going to carry this cross like an albatross around my neck. :rolleyes:
Well now we know who the real local hero is. How do you do 80 hours? I work 40 at most, and I'm dead by the weekend.
I think I'm tortured by a strong sense of inadequacy and, having been born into some privilege, a constant need to prove that I'm not lazy. But don't let me get going down this road.

And in answer to your question, caffeine.

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#101

Post by joachimt » December 19th, 2017, 9:37 pm

I've been thinking about the scoring system and how it would work out with four countries in a group. With three it was rather easy: two wins is the winner. Two countries with one win and one tie is decided by average rank etc...

Now with four. In theory any result head-to-head is possible. So let's try this for example:

A>B
A>C
A<D
B>C
B=D
C=D

A: 2 win, 0 tie, 1 loss
B: 1 win, 1 tie, 1 loss
C: 0 win, 1 tie, 2 loss
D: 1 win, 2 tie, 0 loss

Which country is the winner? A, because it won two? Or D because it lost none? It would be weird in this case if A is the winner and D second, while D beats A head to head. You could say it doesn't matter, because they both proceed anyway this way, but I could think of situations like this between #2 and #3 as well.

So what would be the best way? I think it would be to say a win is 2 points, a tie is 1 point and a loss is 0 points. A tie in points is solved with average rank. In the example above A and D would both have 4 points, B has 3 points and C has 1 point.

Thoughts?
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#102

Post by Mario Gaborović » December 19th, 2017, 10:25 pm

I think that's where goal difference - in our case, vote difference - comes to the fore.

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#103

Post by joachimt » December 19th, 2017, 10:33 pm

Mario Gaborović on Dec 19 2017, 03:25:44 PM wrote:I think that's where goal difference - in our case, vote difference - comes to the fore.
That doesn't answer my question. What do you think is the winner? Two wins and one loss, or one win and two ties? Do you agree on my point-system?

After that, it's either average rank or vote-difference. I don't see why we should change that rule.
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#104

Post by Lonewolf2003 » December 19th, 2017, 10:38 pm

2 wins imho.
Maybe a point system with a win = 3 points works better?


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#106

Post by Mario Gaborović » December 19th, 2017, 10:41 pm

joachimt on Dec 19 2017, 03:33:51 PM wrote:
Mario Gaborović on Dec 19 2017, 03:25:44 PM wrote:I think that's where goal difference - in our case, vote difference - comes to the fore.
That doesn't answer my question. What do you think is the winner? Two wins and one loss, or one win and two ties? Do you agree on my point-system?

After that, it's either average rank or vote-difference. I don't see why we should change that rule.
1) The number of wins
2) Vote difference

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#107

Post by maxwelldeux » December 19th, 2017, 10:42 pm

It took me longer than I care to admit to work out the scoring in my head. But now that I understand...

(I had to google this, but) Standard world cup scoring is Win = 3 points, Draw = 1 point, Loss = 0 points. So, in your example, A has six points, D has five points, B has four points, and C has one point. Pretty clear who moves on from there. With a 2/1/0 scoring system for Win/Draw/Loss, the same countries would move on, but it's less clear. It depends on how much you value wins vs. ties. Personally, I'd prefer the 3/1/0 scoring like with the FIFA World Cup, but that's just my opinion.

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#108

Post by joachimt » December 19th, 2017, 10:43 pm

PeacefulAnarchy on Dec 19 2017, 03:40:12 PM wrote:Just go with average rank
I'm not considering vote difference. Average will remain the tie-breaker.

But what do you think should win: two wins or one win and two ties?
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#109

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » December 19th, 2017, 10:45 pm

3/1/0 is done in sports because it promotes goal scoring and disincentivizes bottling up to preserve a tie, not because it's fairer. There's no need for such incentives in this case. In joachimt's example D should be the winner.

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#110

Post by joachimt » December 19th, 2017, 10:46 pm

maxwelldeux on Dec 19 2017, 03:42:37 PM wrote:It took me longer than I care to admit to work out the scoring in my head. But now that I understand...

(I had to google this, but) Standard world cup scoring is Win = 3 points, Draw = 1 point, Loss = 0 points. So, in your example, A has six points, D has five points, B has four points, and C has one point. Pretty clear who moves on from there. With a 2/1/0 scoring system for Win/Draw/Loss, the same countries would move on, but it's less clear. It depends on how much you value wins vs. ties. Personally, I'd prefer the 3/1/0 scoring like with the FIFA World Cup, but that's just my opinion.
In previous years we didn't use a point-system, because it wasn't needed. With only three countries in a group there are far less possibilities. In all those cases the winner or the ties are clear, even without points.
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#111

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » December 19th, 2017, 10:47 pm

joachimt on Dec 19 2017, 03:43:49 PM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on Dec 19 2017, 03:40:12 PM wrote:Just go with average rank
I'm not considering vote difference. Average will remain the tie-breaker.

But what do you think should win: two wins or one win and two ties?
I'm saying we should change the scoring and go with average rank as the primary ranking system. Wins/losses is a silly way to look at film matchups when everyone is ranking all the films anyway. That said as I wrote above, one win, two ties should be the winner.

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#112

Post by maxwelldeux » December 19th, 2017, 10:48 pm

joachimt on Dec 19 2017, 03:43:49 PM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on Dec 19 2017, 03:40:12 PM wrote:Just go with average rank
I'm not considering vote difference. Average will remain the tie-breaker.

But what do you think should win: two wins or one win and two ties?
For me, two wins should win. I would value one win over two ties, which can be solved by 3 points for a win, 1 for a tie.

If you wanted to value two ties over one win, you could make a win = 3 points, and a tie = 2 points.

If you wanted to value one win and two ties equally, win = 2 points, tie = 1 point.

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#113

Post by joachimt » December 19th, 2017, 10:49 pm

PeacefulAnarchy on Dec 19 2017, 03:45:42 PM wrote:In joachimt's example D should be the winner.
So you disagree with Lonewolf on this. Based on what rules should D be the winner?

Personally I think two wins equals one win and two ties, so A vs D should be decided by average rank.
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#114

Post by Mario Gaborović » December 19th, 2017, 10:51 pm

Now I think the average rank is best 'cause it's most simple and fair.

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#115

Post by joachimt » December 19th, 2017, 10:51 pm

I'd like to hear mjf's opinion on this. If I remember correctly he was the one who introduced the head-to-head method.
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#116

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » December 19th, 2017, 10:57 pm

joachimt on Dec 19 2017, 03:49:36 PM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on Dec 19 2017, 03:45:42 PM wrote:In joachimt's example D should be the winner.
So you disagree with Lonewolf on this. Based on what rules should D be the winner?

Personally I think two wins equals one win and two ties, so A vs D should be decided by average rank.
Based on head to head. If you're making up the existence of wins and ties and ranking films that way, then since two wins equals a win+2 ties the tie breaker should be the winner between the two. But since I don't actually think we should be looking at things as wins and losses average rank is fine since it's what we should really be using anyway.

Every voting/ranking system of this sort will have an outlier scenario where an "unfair" result happens, by the way.

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#117

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » December 19th, 2017, 11:11 pm

Take for example:
10 people vote A>B>C>D
9 people vote B>C>D>A
that means
A is 3W-0L Avg 2.42
B is 2W-1L Avg 1.52
C is 1W-2L Avg 2.52
D is 0W-3L Avg 3.52

Even above I think the winner should be B, but the win loss system makes it seem like A is the clear victor when it's a very divisive film.


If one more person votes B>C>D>A then suddenly it becomes
A is 0W-0L-3D Avg 2.5
B is 2W-0L-1D Avg 1.5
C is 1W-1L-1D Avg 2.5
D is 0W-2L-1D Avg 3.5

How should this tie be broken? A and C have the same average rank and a head to head draw. C has a win, but also a loss, while A has no losses.

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#118

Post by joachimt » December 19th, 2017, 11:20 pm

PeacefulAnarchy on Dec 19 2017, 04:11:30 PM wrote:Take for example:
10 people vote A>B>C>D
9 people vote B>C>D>A
that means
A is 3W-0L Avg 2.42
B is 2W-1L Avg 1.52
C is 1W-2L Avg 2.52
D is 0W-3L Avg 3.52
Good example.
I'm going to sleep on this. Still have 12 days left to figure this out.
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#119

Post by Mario Gaborović » December 19th, 2017, 11:21 pm

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko: What's wrong with average rank?

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#120

Post by joachimt » December 19th, 2017, 11:22 pm

Mario Gaborović on Dec 19 2017, 04:21:01 PM wrote: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: What's wrong with average rank?
Nothing. That's what PA is saying.
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