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Film World Cup - Season 3 - Discussion before preparation

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Film World Cup - Season 3 - Discussion before preparation

#1

Post by joachimt » September 25th, 2017, 7:32 pm

EDIT: Final poll question added. Voting deadline: October the 10th

So let's try to start a new season of iCM Forum's World Cup next January. Before we get to the preparations, we should decide if we want to change some things or if we're gonna do it the same way.

For all the newbies (and for people who didn't follow it last time or just have a bad memory) here is a short summary. The summary tells how we did it last time. This topic is a discussion about whether or not we want to change some things.
Summary on wrote:The World Cup is a movie tournament between countries. 48 countries are presented by managers (people from this forum). Each manager can represent multiple countries (because we probably don't find 48 different managers). The managers are the ones to select the movies for his country.
In the first round, the 48 countries will be divided into 16 groups of three. Those three countries battle against each other. For every country a movie will be selected. Within three weeks, people can watch those three movies (or you have seen some before) and vote for the order of the three movies. At the deadline, there is a winner and that country proceeds to the next round.
In the second round 16 countries are left. The managers pick a new movie for their country. The 16 countries are scheduled in one-on-one matches. Each match lasts two weeks. Participants watch both movies and vote for the order. At the end of round two 8 countries proceed. We continue this until there is a winner.
The matches overlap one week in round 1 and half a week in the next rounds, so the pace is about 1.5 movies a week (if you have seen some before and don't rewatch, the pace for you is lower).
Movies must have less than 1000 checks the moment they are selected.
Only one movie per director in the whole tournament.
No movies from previous seasons.
Runtime must not exceed 180 minutes. There's no minimum runtime.
You can find all topics of both previous seasons here.

If you have questions about this before voting, feel free to ask.
Last edited by joachimt on October 3rd, 2017, 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#2

Post by joachimt » September 25th, 2017, 7:33 pm

I want to add more poll questions. How do I do that?
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#3

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 25th, 2017, 7:36 pm

I have only two suggestions:

1) That Group A consists of films which have the fewest number of checks in total after initial draw, as we learned that the voting is most vibrant at the very beginning. That way some balance between groups could be achieved.

2) Raise the bar at 1200 checks; it would gain more votes, and that way haters of "obscure" films couldn't complain.

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#4

Post by joachimt » September 25th, 2017, 8:17 pm

Mario Gaborović on Sep 25 2017, 01:36:57 PM wrote:2) Raise the bar at 1200 checks; it would gain more votes, and that way haters of "obscure" films couldn't complain.
I planned to add this as a poll question, but I can't see how I can attach multiple polls to one topic.
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#5

Post by weirdboy » September 25th, 2017, 8:20 pm

Monty should be able to answer that question...

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#6

Post by joachimt » September 25th, 2017, 8:21 pm

Oh wait, I see it now.
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#7

Post by joachimt » September 25th, 2017, 8:33 pm

All polls attached. If you don't have an opinion about a question, just don't answer that one. The number of votes also gives information about how much interest there is in changing something.
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#8

Post by joachimt » September 25th, 2017, 9:01 pm

Some stats about the threshold.

From the 1st season 55 out of 80 are still under 400 checks.
From the 2nd season that number is 63 out of 80.

Managers didn't pick a lot of movies between 400 and 1000 checks. If we raise the checkcount, I doubt they will pick movies with more checks.
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#9

Post by Nathan Treadway » September 25th, 2017, 9:02 pm

1.) 48 or 32 countries sounds about right. That should be determined during the signup phase, as it'll be hard to accurately gauge interest until then.
2.) Matchups should last 1 week.
3.) 9-12 months.
4.) Head to Head all the way through
5.) There shouldn't be a check limit, as it's too arbitrary. However, the spirit of the competition should be lesser seen films.
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#10

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 25th, 2017, 9:07 pm

joachimt on Sep 25 2017, 03:01:43 PM wrote:Managers didn't pick a lot of movies between 400 and 1000 checks. If we raise the checkcount, I doubt they will pick movies with more checks.
You got that right.

And this time find a good manager for Belgium, because the country ended up 47th and 46th in two appearances. :lol:
Last edited by Mario Gaborović on September 25th, 2017, 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#11

Post by sortile9io » September 25th, 2017, 9:10 pm

Mario Gaborović on Sep 25 2017, 01:36:57 PM wrote:1) That Group A consists of films which have the fewest number of checks in total after initial draw, as we learned that the voting is most vibrant at the very beginning. That way some balance between groups could be achieved.
I don't think balance should be a top priority, at least to the point of altering the natural schedule of the competition. If anything, the opening match should be the most attractive to engage participants in the rest of the competition. Which match would you choose to start the Football World Cup: Kuwait-Bolivia or Germany-Brazil?
Last edited by sortile9io on September 25th, 2017, 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#12

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 25th, 2017, 9:20 pm

sortile9io on Sep 25 2017, 03:10:38 PM wrote:
Mario Gaborović on Sep 25 2017, 01:36:57 PM wrote:1) That Group A consists of films which have the fewest number of checks in total after initial draw, as we learned that the voting is most vibrant at the very beginning. That way some balance between groups could be achieved.
I don't think balance should be a top priority, at least to the point of altering the natural schedule of the competition. If anything, the opening match should be the most attractive to engage participants in the rest of the competition. Which match would you choose to start the Football World Cup: Kuwait-Bolivia or Germany-Brazil?
The Group A in the first season was seen by 48 people, and then, just few months later, another by only 20. That's a bit unfair towards people who chose the latter.
Anyway, do you have any other suggestion how groups could be balanced in terms of reaction?? :shrug:
Last edited by Mario Gaborović on September 25th, 2017, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#13

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » September 25th, 2017, 9:45 pm

I didn't vote on "How should the schedule be?" because the answer to that only makes sense in response to the previous three questions.
Voted for 32 countries, 9-12 months, 1.5 movies per week.

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#14

Post by beavis » September 25th, 2017, 9:47 pm

I answered "no" to the first question, when there were no other questions yet, because the formula works well

However on some of the subsequent questions I did vote for departure from the current form... just because the formula that works well can still be tweaked into something better

Consensus is sometimes difficult to get at in a forum-form, so if after all votes some points remain in doubt, I would vote to leave them unchanged :)

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#15

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 25th, 2017, 9:54 pm

beavis on Sep 25 2017, 03:47:53 PM wrote:because the formula works well
You should consider Uzbekistan and this film, agree?

https://letterboxd.com/film/tenderness-1966/details/

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#16

Post by beavis » September 25th, 2017, 10:03 pm

Uzbekistan is certainly an interesting country, and I've seen enough from it already that I could have something for three rounds, but that is something for another, future, thread

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#17

Post by joachimt » September 26th, 2017, 5:43 am

PeacefulAnarchy on Sep 25 2017, 03:45:20 PM wrote:I didn't vote on "How should the schedule be?" because the answer to that only makes sense in response to the previous three questions.
Voted for 32 countries, 9-12 months, 1.5 movies per week.
Of course. If we go with 48 countries again, we can't do one-on-one the whole tournament.
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#18

Post by joachimt » September 26th, 2017, 5:44 am

Nathan_Treadway on Sep 25 2017, 03:02:26 PM wrote:5.) There shouldn't be a check limit, as it's too arbitrary. However, the spirit of the competition should be lesser seen films.
Arbitrary maybe, but I don't want managers to get the chance to pick something from the top 100 of TSPDT. Not really a fair match in some match-ups.
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#19

Post by Fergenaprido » September 26th, 2017, 5:56 am

For the schedule, I like the idea of 4 films per match in the opening round, and then the top 2 proceeding to the elimination stage, just like in the soccer World Cup.

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#20

Post by Nathan Treadway » September 26th, 2017, 5:58 am

joachimt on Sep 25 2017, 11:44:56 PM wrote:
Nathan_Treadway on Sep 25 2017, 03:02:26 PM wrote:5.) There shouldn't be a check limit, as it's too arbitrary. However, the spirit of the competition should be lesser seen films.
Arbitrary maybe, but I don't want managers to get the chance to pick something from the top 100 of TSPDT. Not really a fair match in some match-ups.
Good point, which is the main reason I added the second sentence. I don't have too hard of a stance on anything, and it looks like that one would be a losing battle, based on the results thus far.

Maybe we can try and have a round of unofficial checks only? (I don't know if I'd like this, as the countries/films I have in mind are official...) The main drawback would probably be participation, as more it seems are willing to participate if the films have official status. (Any stats to back up this assumption?)
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#21

Post by beavis » September 26th, 2017, 6:10 am

Fergenaprido on Sep 25 2017, 11:56:52 PM wrote:For the schedule, I like the idea of 4 films per match in the opening round, and then the top 2 proceeding to the elimination stage, just like in the soccer World Cup.
I like this idea. When only one movie gets through in the first pool phase it can be a bit unlucky for some, sometimes it is so close between two of them, this seems to give a bit of an extra chance if you're in such a "pool of death" :)

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#22

Post by maxwelldeux » September 26th, 2017, 6:52 am

Nathan_Treadway on Sep 25 2017, 11:58:17 PM wrote:Maybe we can try and have a round of unofficial checks only? (I don't know if I'd like this, as the countries/films I have in mind are official...) The main drawback would probably be participation, as more it seems are willing to participate if the films have official status. (Any stats to back up this assumption?)
I mean, nothing quantitative, but I know that I would be less likely to participate if the checks were unofficial. Mostly because my ranking is so low currently, I want everything I watch to count for something. My only rewatches or unofficial checks right now are a) nostalgia, b) background noise while I do chores, or c) something my wife wanted to see. And I mete those out carefully. (Except the wife thing.)

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#23

Post by joachimt » September 26th, 2017, 7:47 am

Nathan_Treadway on Sep 25 2017, 11:58:17 PM wrote:The main drawback would probably be participation, as more it seems are willing to participate if the films have official status. (Any stats to back up this assumption?)
I can get those stats, but takes some time to collect, so I probably won't. Gut feeling says you're right.
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#24

Post by Armoreska » September 26th, 2017, 8:15 am

I say change up first-round rules every time. So far we've already had 3 with 1 proceeding in both seasons.
Make it either 4 with 1 or 2 (or in between, based on how it fared) proceeding (depending on the number of countries), or head to head all the way.
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#25

Post by tommy_leazaq » September 26th, 2017, 12:53 pm

joachimt on Sep 25 2017, 11:43:01 PM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on Sep 25 2017, 03:45:20 PM wrote:I didn't vote on "How should the schedule be?" because the answer to that only makes sense in response to the previous three questions.
Voted for 32 countries, 9-12 months, 1.5 movies per week.
Of course. If we go with 48 countries again, we can't do one-on-one the whole tournament.
Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two.. :whistling:

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#26

Post by Armoreska » September 26th, 2017, 1:02 pm

tommy_leazaq on Sep 26 2017, 06:53:17 AM wrote:
joachimt on Sep 25 2017, 11:43:01 PM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on Sep 25 2017, 03:45:20 PM wrote:I didn't vote on "How should the schedule be?" because the answer to that only makes sense in response to the previous three questions.
Voted for 32 countries, 9-12 months, 1.5 movies per week.
Of course. If we go with 48 countries again, we can't do one-on-one the whole tournament.
Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two.. :whistling:
India, Cuba, Taiwan, Croatia, Egypt and that Borat country are all for it
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currently working towards a vegan/low waste world + thru such film lists (besides TV): 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Luis Bunuel, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#27

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 26th, 2017, 1:04 pm

Armoreska on Sep 26 2017, 07:02:24 AM wrote:
tommy_leazaq on Sep 26 2017, 06:53:17 AM wrote:
joachimt on Sep 25 2017, 11:43:01 PM wrote:Of course. If we go with 48 countries again, we can't do one-on-one the whole tournament.
Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two.. :whistling:
India, Cuba, Taiwan, Croatia, Egypt and that Borat country are all for it
Almost each of the Soviet states can do some problems for the bighitters, I guarantee you that. So vote for 48, guys.
Vremena goda for Armenia, Nezhnost for Uzbekistan, Lyubit... for Moldova, Šarunas Bartas for Lithuania...
Last edited by Mario Gaborović on September 26th, 2017, 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#28

Post by Armoreska » September 26th, 2017, 1:53 pm

Mario Gaborović on Sep 26 2017, 07:04:58 AM wrote:
Armoreska on Sep 26 2017, 07:02:24 AM wrote:
tommy_leazaq on Sep 26 2017, 06:53:17 AM wrote:Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two.. :whistling:
India, Cuba, Taiwan, Croatia, Egypt and that Borat country are all for it
Almost each of the Soviet states can do some problems for the bighitters, I guarantee you that. So vote for 48, guys.
Vremena goda for Armenia, Nezhnost for Uzbekistan, Lyubit... for Moldova, Šarunas Bartas for Lithuania...
But what will they use if they happen to win. :ermm: Some of these countries probably have no "bench" at all nevermind a deep one.
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currently working towards a vegan/low waste world + thru such film lists (besides TV): 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Luis Bunuel, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#29

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 26th, 2017, 1:59 pm

Armoreska on Sep 26 2017, 07:53:04 AM wrote:
Mario Gaborović on Sep 26 2017, 07:04:58 AM wrote:
Armoreska on Sep 26 2017, 07:02:24 AM wrote:India, Cuba, Taiwan, Croatia, Egypt and that Borat country are all for it
Almost each of the Soviet states can do some problems for the bighitters, I guarantee you that. So vote for 48, guys.
Vremena goda for Armenia, Nezhnost for Uzbekistan, Lyubit... for Moldova, Šarunas Bartas for Lithuania...
But what will they use if they happen to win. :ermm: Some of these countries probably have no "bench" at all nevermind a deep one.
Atom Egoyan's Ararat, anything from Ali Khamrayev, Emil Loteanu's The Fiddlers, Summer of Sangaile... And you could be Belarus' manager, I could assists you with fine films like Alpiyskaya ballada or Prostitutka... :P

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#30

Post by Armoreska » September 26th, 2017, 2:09 pm

Mario Gaborović on Sep 26 2017, 07:59:42 AM wrote:
Armoreska on Sep 26 2017, 07:53:04 AM wrote:
Mario Gaborović on Sep 26 2017, 07:04:58 AM wrote:Almost each of the Soviet states can do some problems for the bighitters, I guarantee you that. So vote for 48, guys.
Vremena goda for Armenia, Nezhnost for Uzbekistan, Lyubit... for Moldova, Šarunas Bartas for Lithuania...
But what will they use if they happen to win. :ermm: Some of these countries probably have no "bench" at all nevermind a deep one.
Atom Egoyan's Ararat, anything from Ali Khamrayev, Emil Loteanu's The Fiddlers, Summer of Sangaile... And you could be Belarus' manager, I could assists you with fine films like Alpiyskaya ballada or Prostitutka... :P
Yeah Alpiyskaya is alright, there are a few rare movies that I enjoyed from Belarus (none went above 6/10 however), and still have a few to go on that project. No idea about subs for these though yet.
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currently working towards a vegan/low waste world + thru such film lists (besides TV): 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Luis Bunuel, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#31

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 26th, 2017, 4:52 pm

tommy_leazaq on Sep 26 2017, 06:53:17 AM wrote:Well, we can if all the 16 countries that won the first round matches last season given direct entry to round two.. :whistling:
That's way too many. For that matter, we agreed that only quarterfinalists are granted Pot 1 place, which means that Egypt and Chile (which skipped Season 2) are going to avoid big countries in the first round, as a reward for good performance.

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#32

Post by beavis » September 26th, 2017, 5:30 pm

A question to ponder on the side: in the second cup movies featured in the first were excluded. Assuming this rule stands, how many cups can be held before smaller movies run out of candidates? :)

And should managers already have up to three candidates lined up before they suggest their country? It seems last time some people first chose a country and then started watching possible candidates... There is nothing wrong with that perse, but i do hope people actually choose countries they like and know a bit about, as that would increase the chance of getting really good film reccomendations... Which for me is kinda the point of the exercise. I love seeing many really small countries in the game, but on the other hand i would not like watching (too much) below par movies because people just choose a country instead of choosing on the basis of movies.

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#33

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 26th, 2017, 5:38 pm

beavis on Sep 26 2017, 11:30:06 AM wrote:A question to ponder on the side: in the second cup movies featured in the first were excluded. Assuming this rule stands, how many cups can be held before smaller movies run out of candidates? :)
You mean, smaller countries?? I don't get your question.

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#34

Post by beavis » September 26th, 2017, 5:40 pm

Sorry yes, countries with a smaller movie output and/or less widely known directors.

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#35

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 26th, 2017, 5:51 pm

beavis on Sep 26 2017, 11:40:53 AM wrote:Sorry yes, countries with a smaller movie output and/or less widely known directors.
Montenegro has like 50 features available and the same amount of shorts, from about 30 different people. If one of the smallest countries in Europe can compete, and given the fact that many new, much bigger countries are arriving on the scene (just look at the ever-expanding lists of Foreign Oscar nominees), the answer is never. :)

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#36

Post by beavis » September 26th, 2017, 5:57 pm

That is good to hear :)
Btw
Didn't know that country had so many top quality directors and movies! I bet a lot of them aren't available with subs though, or are they?

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#37

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 26th, 2017, 6:18 pm

beavis on Sep 26 2017, 11:57:00 AM wrote:That is good to hear :)
Btw
Didn't know that country had so many top quality directors and movies! I bet a lot of them aren't available with subs though, or are they?
I didn't say they have top quality movies. :lol: However, there was a small studio called Lovćen Film based in Cetinje which produced arthouse dramas only, not many (10 or 15 films in total) but one of them (Dan četrnaesti, 1960) ended up in Cannes, which is the country's highest achievement internationally. The studio was abolished in 1965 when the Ministry of Culture decided that only economically productive republic studios could continue their work; the most sparsely populated Yugoslav republic which produced only arthouses just couldn't make it, and that was the end.

Their film output was always quite low, but I dunno if there ever was a smaller country that had its entry in the most prestigious festival worldwide. :shrug:

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#38

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » September 26th, 2017, 6:32 pm

I'd say the format is fine the way it is. However, for some reason I completely lost interest in both managing a country and participating in this.
My father didn’t have the skill of a professional cameraman. The result? Avant-garde cinema.

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joachimt
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#39

Post by joachimt » September 26th, 2017, 6:33 pm

I agree with you beavis. When we get to the sign-up stage, we should encourage people to choose countries with an interesting movie output where they know enough about.
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Mario Gaborović
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#40

Post by Mario Gaborović » September 26th, 2017, 6:34 pm

XxXApathy420XxX on Sep 26 2017, 12:32:04 PM wrote:I'd say the format is fine the way it is. However, for some reason I completely lost interest in both managing a country and participating in this.
Do you personally think that the overall quality of 80 films isn't satisfying? :think:

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