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Managers Cup, Match QFD: toromash vs pitchorneirda (Jan 12th)

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Managers Cup, Match QFD: toromash vs pitchorneirda (Jan 12th)

#1

Post by joachimt »

This is match QFD of iCM Forum's Managers Cup.

Original TitleEnglish TitleYearManagerIMDBICM
DiabelThe Devil1972toromashlinklink
La leggenda del santo bevitoreThe Legend of the Holy Drinker1988pitchorneirdalinklink

Screenshots
Diabel
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La leggenda del santo bevitore
#N/A
Voting Rules:
- You must watch both films before you vote.
- To vote, post which of the two movies is your favorite.

Voting deadline = Jan 12th
Countdown till deadline

The manager that ends at 1st place proceeds to the next round. The ranking of the match will be decided using these rules:
- Movie with most votes wins.
- In case of a tie the match will have a 3 day extension.
- In case there's still a tie then, the next voter decides by sudden death.
Here's a quick summary of how the tournament works
We start with 18 movies selected by 18 managers. In the first round the movies are divided into 6 groups of 3. From each group the countries that end up at #1 proceed to the next round. The two best #2's proceed as well. In the 2nd round the 8 remaining managers will be divided into 8 matches of 2 and they pick a new movie. The winner of each match proceeds to the next round. This continues till the final.
Rules for picking movies:
- Less than 1000 checks on iCM in round 1. Quarter finals: 400 checks. Semi finals: 200 checks. Final: (TBD) checks.
- Maximum runtime 180 min.
- No movies that have previously been selected for the World Cup.
- Not multiple movies by the same director.
- If two managers pick the same movie, the one who picked first gets it.
iCM-list of all movies in this Managers Cup

List of all topics related to the Managers Cup including previous seasons of the World Cup
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#2

Post by beavis »

1. Diabel - 8.5
2. La leggenda del santo bevitore - 8

excellent movies!
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#3

Post by 72aicm »

1. La leggenda del santo bevitore
2. Diabel
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#4

Post by russa03 »

1. Diabel
2. La leggenda del santo bevitore

I liked Olmi's film but Diabel is the best in the competition so far.
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#5

Post by DudeLanez »

1. La leggenda del santo bevitore
2. Diabel
Challenges in January
Image -> 60/74
Image -> 100/102 ✓
Preis der deutschen Filmkritik 46/58 -> 45/58 ✓
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#6

Post by joachimt »

This looks like it's going to be a close match.
1-0
1-1
2-1
2-2
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#7

Post by filmbantha »

1. Diabel 7/10

An excellent Zulawski film, it's been a while since I've seen it but there are lots of memorable scenes that stick out in my mind. The impressive camerawork and frenzied performances make this historical odyssey come to life in an unsettling and arresting way.

2. La leggenda del santo bevitore 6/10

I watched this earlier in the year due to its inclusion on the DtC list. Hauer's performance is mostly good but the story meandered a little too much with a handful of sequences that could have been shortened or removed entirely with little impact on the overall narrative.

Thanks to both managers for their picks.
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#8

Post by klaus78 »

1. Diabel
2. La leggenda del santo bevitore
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#9

Post by Armoreska »

1. Devil
2. Saint

See how the pairings improve when you start manually selecting them to match
he or A. or Armo or any

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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#10

Post by Mario Gaborović »

1. Diabel
2. La leggenda del santo bevitore
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#11

Post by pitchorneirda »

I must stop the bleeding now:

1. La leggenda del santo bevitore
2. Diabel

I can understand the appeal of Diabel, it has its moments of genius but it's ridiculous more often than it's brilliant. The acting is very cringeworthy, especially from women characters (e.g. Malgorzata Braunek when she fakes madness, WTF??). And the 70's prog rock soundtrack doesn't help taking the film seriously, it seems more like a hippy trip than anything else.
"Art is like a fire, it is born from the very thing it burns" - Jean-Luc Godard
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#12

Post by joachimt »

1. La leggenda del santo bevitore 7/10
2. Diabel 6/10
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#13

Post by Smoover »

1. Diabel 7/10
2. La leggenda del santo bevitore 7/10
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#14

Post by shugs »

1. The Devil - 6/10
2. The Legend of the Holy Drinker - 4/10
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#16

Post by clemmetarey »

1. La leggenda del santo bevitore (1988) 7/10
2. Diabel (1972) 7/10

Very strong match, thanks to both managers.

Also, there's not much time left, where is everybody? Only 14 replies so far.
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#17

Post by OldAle1 »

clemmetarey wrote: January 11th, 2022, 10:33 pm 1. La leggenda del santo bevitore (1988) 7/10
2. Diabel (1972) 7/10

Very strong match, thanks to both managers.

Also, there's not much time left, where is everybody? Only 14 replies so far.
I'm usually late, gonna try to watch both tonight.
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#18

Post by Onderhond »

I will probably have to excuse myself. I did manage to see La leggenda del santo bevitore, but haven't gotten around to Diabel.

1/ there's been a sudden downpour of other interesting films to see, so I'm pretty swamped in stuff to watch right now.
2/ the films chosen here aren't really my cup of tea, not even the kind I rate low but am still happy to have seen, so it's getting progressively harder to sit down and watch them.
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#19

Post by Teproc »

clemmetarey wrote: January 11th, 2022, 10:33 pm 1. La leggenda del santo bevitore (1988) 7/10
2. Diabel (1972) 7/10

Very strong match, thanks to both managers.

Also, there's not much time left, where is everybody? Only 14 replies so far.
I've watched Diabel and had plans to watch La leggenda del santo bevitore this weekend, but life got in the way. I think I should be able to see it tomorrow and vote.
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#20

Post by sol »

I actually watched both of these days ago but forgot to chime in here. :whistling: I can't say that either of these films really worked for me.

Diabel has the better visuals, but the Olmi film is better acted... by far.

1. The Legend of the Holy Drinker https://letterboxd.com/solh/film/the-le ... y-drinker/
2. Diabel https://letterboxd.com/solh/film/the-devil-1972/

Whatever the case, both are Official Checks that I would not have prioritised otherwise, so thanks to both managers for enticing me to check them out.
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#21

Post by OldAle1 »

First, interesting juxtaposition here - both films that are, on the surface, about the possibilities of "redemption" in some way - and both films about "demons" that get in the way of such a path. Second, interesting choices for me personally as each film is the third I've seen from it's director, and seeing them confirms to me that Olmi is one of the greats - likely deserving a spot on my best directors list, though I am now going to try to see more before next year's poll, and that Zulawski is interesting enough to keep seeing more from, but remains a problematic figure for me - I can't say that I really find much kinship with his worldview or style, though I admire it in some respects and certainly find it original.

1. La leggenda del santo bevitore MASTERPIECE
Spoiler
Not just the best film from this round but the best from the whole cup so far, including my own choices - well, it's maybe tied with my pick from the first round. Rutger Hauer is a pathetic drunk sleeping under bridges in Paris, who speaks and understands French only minimally, and who somehow - miraculously, mystically - keeps getting chances to redeem himself after being given money by a complete stranger (Anthony Quayle) on the condition that he repay it to the statue of a Saint in a local church. He runs into more kind strangers and many odd situations throughout the film - old acquaintances from the past keep popping up, despite the fact that he is far from home, and gradually the film takes on a subtle fantastic or perhaps fairy-tale (the word "legend" in the title I don't think is coincidence) quality, perhaps the fantasy to be found at the bottom of a bottle of wine to be sure. Over and over he has the opportunity to repay the debt, but something - usually alcohol-related - always gets in the way.

With a soundtrack primarily using the work of Igor Stravinsky in his Baroque or early-music mode, and gorgeous photography by Dante Spinotti, this seems fairly far from the world of L'albero degli zoccoli, or, from what I've read, most of Olmi's earlier works, and yet the feeling of mystery and quasi-religious coincidence or "miracle" was also present in his earlier lengthy masterpiece, and the warmth and feel for humanity - in some ways completely the opposite of Zulawski's vision - is very similar. This is one of Hauer's best performances and a reminder of how good an actor he could be when he got a challenging and interesting part; having seen a lot more of his schlocky sci-fi/action work lately, it's good to have this as a counter. But overall what makes this a great film for me is it's subtle ironies and gentle examination of the various ways in which we can delude ourselves, and put off the inevitable, and how we can so easily convince ourselves that an outsider force - God, or chance, or whatever we choose to call it - is moving us, very often to our detriment. A beautiful, joyous and sad film.

Oh and congrats to pitchor for picking both the best and worst choices of the cup so far :lol:
2. Diabel VERY GOOD
Spoiler
Jakub, a young nobleman, is in prison awaiting death during the Prussian invasion of Poland in 1793, when he is rescued, along with a nun, by a stranger - who quickly shows himself to be the Devil of the title, at least in action and personality if not in supernatural powers (though that remains an open question throughout the film). Jakub and the nun escape and travel across country to his estate, where he finds his father dead, his mother a whore, and a great many other disturbances. Always the stranger is near him, to goad him towards violence. This is - like the other two Zulawski films I've seen - a film of madness and chaos and violence, and while it is compulsively watchable and "entertaining" in a certain way, it goes even further than those others (Possession and Na srebrnym globie in it's misanthropy, here tilting into what I would call full-on nihilism, which for me is usually pretty hard to take. I'm fairly misanthropic myself I suppose but this endless parade of unpleasantness that ultimately seems to add up to a notion that nothing matters, that no one can be saved, that the world is in chaos and spinning out of control, is a bit too much. I did quite like the director's use of wide-angle lenses and jagged visuals (lots of nicely done hand-held shots here), and the electric guitar-heavy score by Andrzej Korzynski, and I can't help but to fall into his negative spell much of the time, but I'm not sure it's something I want to experience again anytime soon. A film I really liked then but in it's fairly extreme rejection of the world, perhaps one that I'm scared to like even more.
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#22

Post by joachimt »

16.5 hours left

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#23

Post by cayado-coro »

1. La leggenda del santo bevitore
2. Diabel

Unbalanced and occasionally suggestive narration in both films.
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#24

Post by joachimt »

Score went from 8-4 to 8-9. Very surprising comeback for leggenda.
I'm off and won't be back till at least 6 hours after the deadline.
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#25

Post by Teproc »

Might comment more later but to be sure I get it before deadline

1. Diabel - 6/10
2. La leggenda del santo bevitore - 5/10 (I think, might still be a low 6 too)
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#26

Post by edward5 »

1. Diabeł
2. La leggenda del santo bevitore
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#27

Post by mightysparks »

1. Diabel (1972) 4/10
2. La leggenda del santo bevitore (1988) 3/10

Didn't like Diabel that much but still interesting and ambitious in some ways. The bladder infection I had a couple of months ago was less painful than Leggenda urghhhh
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#28

Post by joachimt »

Ouch, that was harsh!! Pitch finally got the lead for the first time in the match half a day before the deadline and then..... BAM...... LOSER!

Toromash wins.

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#29

Post by joachimt »

I plan to start the semifinals on the 16th. Only need sol's pick. Once I got that, I'll post the schedule.
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#30

Post by joachimt »

Some other stats to end the QF's.

The last match we had two new voters:
DudeLanez
cayado-coro

That makes it 29 voters of which 14 people voted in every match so far.

72aicm (10)
Armoreska (10)
clemmetarey (10)
edward5 (10)
filmbantha (10)
joachimt (10)
klaus78 (10)
Mario Gaborović (10)
mightysparks (10)
OldAle1 (10)
shugs (10)
Smoover (10)
sol (10)
zzzorf (10)
beavis (9)
Onderhond (9)
pitchorneirda (9)
Teproc (9)
russa03 (7)
Angel Glez (4)
Marazmatique (4)
St. Gloede (3)
wasabi (3)
sacmersault (2)
blocho (1)
cayado-coro (1)
DudeLanez (1)
matthewscott8 (1)
Melvelet (1)
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#31

Post by pitchorneirda »

joachimt wrote: January 13th, 2022, 6:40 pm Ouch, that was harsh!! Pitch finally got the lead for the first time in the match half a day before the deadline and then..... BAM...... LOSER!

Toromash wins.
Yeah that really hurt!
But congratuiations to Toromash, and I'm glad OldAle1 liked it so much, this wasn't in vain :thumbsup:
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#32

Post by OldAle1 »

pitchorneirda wrote: January 13th, 2022, 10:21 pm
joachimt wrote: January 13th, 2022, 6:40 pm Ouch, that was harsh!! Pitch finally got the lead for the first time in the match half a day before the deadline and then..... BAM...... LOSER!

Toromash wins.
Yeah that really hurt!
But congratuiations to Toromash, and I'm glad OldAle1 liked it so much, this wasn't in vain :thumbsup:
I'd have watched it someday anyway as I love the other two Olmi films I've seen and I really like Rutger Hauer, but yeah it was nice to see a new strong favorite in this cup.
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