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iCMForum Managers Cup - initial sign-up and rule discussion

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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iCMForum Managers Cup - initial sign-up and rule discussion

#1

Post by zzzorf »

Hi everyone. As you all know over the years the forum has hosted 4 Film World Cups where we pit a group of countries together in a tournament, each country represented by a manager who would pick a movie from their charge and put it up against another manager, with the winners proceeding to the next round where they would choose another movie. Instead of running a 5th World Cup I have been given permission by those in charge to run, for want of a better name, the iCMForum Manager's Cup.

What is the iCM Forum Manger's Cup?
Instead of countries competing to claim dominance this Cup is all about the Managers. Who is the superior Forum member at suggesting movies for the masses to watch? Who has little known gems that everyone else should watch? By giving everyone an equal footing by not allowing a manager to have a more noted country (e.g. France compared to Tajikistan) we give everyone a chance to compete and get what they want seen.

Format and Rules Discussion
Until we know how many managers sign up we can't officially decide which format to follow but I assume it will be something along the lines of the World Cup idea of a group stage (or 2) followed by a knockout tournament. As to the rules my initial thought when I posted the idea of chosen movies was they had to be <500 checks and on no official lists but this is open to discussion. Below are the points of discussion I think we need.
  • Check Count The World Cup limit was <1000 but as I said I feel the forum favourite <500 checks is more preferable here.
  • Official Status My idea was to allow us to promote unofficial films but there are so many underseen official films that it may be seen as an unnecessary rule. We could also add in a sliding check rule depending on how many official lists.
  • Round-to-Round Restrictions In the World Cup we weren't allowed to use the same director twice. I was thinking for this cup we could do something like no country twice, or to be more restrictive, no continent twice or at least the 24 "zones" we developed for the monthly challenges.
Decided Rules
TBD

Signed-up Managers
  1. zzzorf
  2. sol
  3. beavis
  4. filmbantha
  5. Onderhond
  6. clemmetarey
  7. pitchorneirda
  8. Mario Gaborović
  9. Melvelet
  10. Armoreska
  11. wasabi
  12. russa03
  13. connordenney
  14. sacmersault
  15. Nathan Treadway
  16. 72aicm
  17. Lakigigar
  18. toromash
Last edited by zzzorf on August 8th, 2021, 9:45 am, edited 10 times in total.
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#2

Post by sol »

Sure, sign me up; I'll give this a go...
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#3

Post by joachimt »

Make it less than 400 checks to match our favorite list.

If you want hidden gems, only allow unofficial checks. If you allow movies on 1 official list, people can pick movies from 500<400, which are not hidden to this forum. I’m a bit worried for participation though without official checks, mainly because most people have to watch almost everything. In the WC a lot of people had already seen at least 25% of the picks, which made it easier to keep up.

I don’t mind hosting again, I actually enjoy it. But if you want to, I can help you set things up. Going on vacation today, so you have to be patient.
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#4

Post by zzzorf »

joachimt wrote: July 31st, 2021, 4:48 am Make it less than 400 checks to match our favorite list.

If you want hidden gems, only allow unofficial checks. If you allow movies on 1 official list, people can pick movies from 500<400, which are not hidden to this forum. I’m a bit worried for participation though without official checks, mainly because most people have to watch almost everything. In the WC a lot of people had already seen at least 25% of the picks, which made it easier to keep up.

I don’t mind hosting again, I actually enjoy it. But if you want to, I can help you set things up. Going on vacation today, so you have to be patient.
Idiot me was supposed to say <400 not <500, silly me.

I see your point with official checks that's why I said the sliding scale. Something like <400 on 0 lists, <200 on 1, <100 on 2 etc. I am also happy to stay with the normal <1000 rule the WC had.

Another option is never appeared on the 500<400 lists.

As to hosting I am more than happy for you to take it over, I really don't think I can do as good as a job as you can. Once we get this part sorted I'll hand the reigns over to you.
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#5

Post by beavis »

I'm in

If there is a need for restrictions, they could also be increasing per round. So for instance first round <1000 and 2 official lists aloud, second round <400 and 1 list, third <200 no lists....and progressivly smaller still.
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#6

Post by filmbantha »

Count me in. I really like the idea of a continent restriction where you can only use each continent once per tournament but i'm not sure if that may be a little too restrictive for some people? I might even use that as a self imposed rule anyway. I will be happy to participate regardless of the rules that are decided upon.
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#7

Post by joachimt »

I like the idea of a sliding scale. I don’t really mind which way, but I ado like beavis’ idea of making it obscurer every round. Starting with <1000 checks is way too mainstream though.
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#8

Post by joachimt »

You guys figure out the details and I’ll host. The size of groups, number of rounds and schedule can be decided based on number of managers. Let’s hope for a practical number……
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#9

Post by beavis »

I don't like any kind of geographical restriction, as that would make this, however so slightly, more similar to the world cup. we haven't thought about temporal ones yet... first rond only 2000-2019, second round only 1980-1999, third only 1960-1979 and so on, maybe? that would also adress some criticisms towards the kind of films usually selected for the worldcup I think
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#10

Post by zzzorf »

joachimt wrote: July 31st, 2021, 7:47 am You guys figure out the details and I’ll host. The size of groups, number of rounds and schedule can be decided based on number of managers. Let’s hope for a practical number……
Are you yourself playing?
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#11

Post by Onderhond »

Yeah, count me in for this, sounds fun.
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#12

Post by clemmetarey »

Sign me up, sounds fun. :)

I would prefer using only unofficial films, I don't have a preference for checks and countries restrictions.
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#13

Post by joachimt »

zzzorf wrote: July 31st, 2021, 8:04 am
joachimt wrote: July 31st, 2021, 7:47 am You guys figure out the details and I’ll host. The size of groups, number of rounds and schedule can be decided based on number of managers. Let’s hope for a practical number……
Are you yourself playing?
Not as a manager, but I'll try to watch the movies if I can keep up with the pace.
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#14

Post by pitchorneirda »

Yay! World Cup!

Sign me up!
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#15

Post by Onderhond »

I like the idea of "themed" rounds, preferably not decade-based though. But broader themes (bit like how anthologies work) could be interesting to create at least some kind of rough cohesion within a single round.
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#16

Post by Mario Gaborović »

I'd like to manage, too.
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#17

Post by Melvelet »

I would not disallow 500<400 movies, not so many members here have seen even half of them (and only looking at the lower half, most people will have seen an even smaller percentage). Maybe just diallow the top 100 or the upper half. At least the list inclusion give a good indication that people here have a chance of liking it. I often get discoruaged to watch the movies in round x at all if there's some unofficial obscure movie that continually has people giving it low grades and saying it sucked. I'm not among the core of WC participants though so your mileage may vary.

Other restrictions:
- only one per county (instead of one per continent, where every has to recommend their favourite obscure African or Oceanean movie, even if they've barely seen any)
- only one per director, no movies chosen in WC before etc.
- themed rounds sound cool, maybe have 5 or themes that everyone has to choose from and that can only be chosen once per participants but in their order of preference. Unless we find broad enough, ambiguous themes that allow for diversity and some creative way of interpreting it. Sounds more fun to me than having to watch 32 comedies

Theme ideas:
- Aquatic or Water (maybe more narrow: sea, waves)
- Fire/Water/Earth/Air (as separate rounds or not)
- Beginnings and Ends
- Forest or Nature or simply "Green"

I could be a manager (although I won't be here for most of late August and September)
Last edited by Melvelet on July 31st, 2021, 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#18

Post by beavis »

Onderhond wrote: July 31st, 2021, 10:16 am I like the idea of "themed" rounds, preferably not decade-based though. But broader themes (bit like how anthologies work) could be interesting to create at least some kind of rough cohesion within a single round.
We have talked about genre cups in the past, but genres are very hard to define, theme's might be more managable... but, I think to leave it up to individual taste of a manager in this "manager cup" idea, might actually be much better!

All other restrictions we are talking about here is either after a round, like not using the same director twice in the worldcup, here not using the same country or continent twice. Or before, I guess in order to have some diversity in the movies... in the world cup we see that a black and white movie from the 60's with maybe a world war 2 storyline seems to be the safest bet at winning, so if managers were forced to chooce from movies with a certain level of obscurity, or from a certain timeperiod, that kind of choices could be avoided or at least shaken up a little... This would give advantage to managers with a more all round knowledge of filmhistory however, I think, not everyone might like that, but it would also make winning the cup not entirely random maybe... :)
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#19

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Sounds interesting. How will you avoid two people choosing the same movie?
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#20

Post by zzzorf »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: July 31st, 2021, 8:32 pm Sounds interesting. How will you avoid two people choosing the same movie?
I'm still trying to work that out but I'm thinking a first in, first served basis
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#21

Post by zzzorf »

Melvelet wrote: July 31st, 2021, 11:42 am I could be a manager (although I won't be here for most of late August and September)
Well with luck we should be able to get this off the ground pretty quickly. So therefore we should be able to get your movie choice before you leave and you will just have to miss voting in a couple of matches. I added your name to the list.
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#22

Post by zzzorf »

Ok so after thinking on things for a bit concerning the rules after reading the thoughts of others how does this sound?

Movies must be <400 at time of choosing, regardless of official status

The forum has split the world into the following 24 sections. Once you have chosen a movie from one area you may not choose another from that area in a later round.
Africa
Balkans
Canada
Caribbean
China/Hong Kong/Taiwan
Germany/Austria/Switzerland
Iberia (Spain, Portugal and surrounds)
India/Pakistan/Myanmar/Bangladesh
Mexico
Nordic countries
Russia/USSR
Southeast Asia
Benelux
Central America
Eastern Europe - excluding Russia and Balkans
France
Iran/Central Asia
Italy
Japan
Korean Peninsula
Middle East - excluding Iran
Oceania
South America
UK/Ireland


I am not inclined to do genres as this Cup was designed as an alternative to that suggestion. Are people happy with this?
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#23

Post by beavis »

Just to be a clear. Is it when a manager has used a region they cannot use it again, or no other manager can use it again?
Still not sure if i like the geographic restrictions for a cup that supposes an alternative to the worldcup, and how much extra variation it will provide in the overall game.
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#24

Post by zzzorf »

beavis wrote: August 1st, 2021, 6:18 am Just to be a clear. Is it when a manager has used a region they cannot use it again, or no other manager can use it again?
Still not sure if i like the geographic restrictions for a cup that supposes an alternative to the worldcup, and how much extra variation it will provide in the overall game.
If a manager uses a region they couldn't use it again. I am happy to scrap it if needed but I was trying to aim for the diversity that the World Cup offered, that chance to discover stuff from various points of the world. When you look at that breakdown it still means you can hit a lot of major countries and won't restrict anyone really.
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#25

Post by mjf314 »

If we do a genre cup, we could use RYM. The genres listed on RYM are usually fairly reliable, although very obscure films might be missing genres.
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#26

Post by Fergenaprido »

zzzorf wrote: August 1st, 2021, 5:39 am The forum has split the world into the following 24 sections. Once you have chosen a movie from one area you may not choose another from that area in a later round.
Africa
Balkans
Canada
Caribbean
China/Hong Kong/Taiwan
Germany/Austria/Switzerland
Iberia (Spain, Portugal and surrounds)
India/Pakistan/Myanmar/Bangladesh
Mexico
Nordic countries
Russia/USSR
Southeast Asia
Benelux
Central America
Eastern Europe - excluding Russia and Balkans
France
Iran/Central Asia
Italy
Japan
Korean Peninsula
Middle East - excluding Iran
Oceania
South America
UK/Ireland
Are these regions intended to be mutually exclusive? If so, you should decide where Egypt and Turkey should go: Middle East, or Africa and Balkans, respectively? Same with Afghanistan: Central Asia or South Asia? Also, "India/Pakistan/Myanmar/Bangladesh" should be "South Asia" (and Myanmar is included in Southeast Asia). And cinematically, Central American and the Caribbean have very low output... I would combine those two, and split South America into two groups, like we did for the challenges this year - or keep South America as one and split Eastern Europe into Central Europe (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary) and Eastern Europe/European former USSR (Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova).

Lastly, what's the deadline for signing up as a manager? I'm very hesitant to sign up before I know more about the rules and method (i.e. how many rounds, how long the game will last, etc.).

Cheers for taking on this initiative, though. :)
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#27

Post by zzzorf »

Fergenaprido wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 5:15 am
zzzorf wrote: August 1st, 2021, 5:39 am The forum has split the world into the following 24 sections. Once you have chosen a movie from one area you may not choose another from that area in a later round.
Africa
Balkans
Canada
Caribbean
China/Hong Kong/Taiwan
Germany/Austria/Switzerland
Iberia (Spain, Portugal and surrounds)
India/Pakistan/Myanmar/Bangladesh
Mexico
Nordic countries
Russia/USSR
Southeast Asia
Benelux
Central America
Eastern Europe - excluding Russia and Balkans
France
Iran/Central Asia
Italy
Japan
Korean Peninsula
Middle East - excluding Iran
Oceania
South America
UK/Ireland
Are these regions intended to be mutually exclusive? If so, you should decide where Egypt and Turkey should go: Middle East, or Africa and Balkans, respectively? Same with Afghanistan: Central Asia or South Asia? Also, "India/Pakistan/Myanmar/Bangladesh" should be "South Asia" (and Myanmar is included in Southeast Asia). And cinematically, Central American and the Caribbean have very low output... I would combine those two, and split South America into two groups, like we did for the challenges this year - or keep South America as one and split Eastern Europe into Central Europe (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary) and Eastern Europe/European former USSR (Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova).

Lastly, what's the deadline for signing up as a manager? I'm very hesitant to sign up before I know more about the rules and method (i.e. how many rounds, how long the game will last, etc.).

Cheers for taking on this initiative, though. :)
They should be mutually exclusive, I would have to go back to the challenges to see where they fit. This is only a tentative idea and it may not have this restriction at all.

As to the deadline I was thinking within the week. There's no point waiting forever and as you know I did just personally contact a lot of people.

We had 32 managers last World Cup and I would love just to get that many and run it like the format we had there, so taking a year, but if we get more than that we will have to rethink the format to make it not to strenuous on everyone.
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#28

Post by Armoreska »

Well if you want me to, I can give you movie watch tasks by submitting movies, sure.
No complaints if you dont enjoy them though.
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#29

Post by hurluberlu »

Thanks for reaching out zzzorf ! I don’t feel like participating again as a voter yet and being a manager without voting sounds a little bit unfair. But if you are short of managers I can always jump in. As discussed in the past I like the decreasing check maximum after every round and I could do with an area restriction too.
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#30

Post by Angel Glez »

joachimt wrote: July 31st, 2021, 4:48 am If you want hidden gems, only allow unofficial checks. If you allow movies on 1 official list, people can pick movies from 500<400, which are not hidden to this forum. I’m a bit worried for participation though without official checks, mainly because most people have to watch almost everything. In the WC a lot of people had already seen at least 25% of the picks, which made it easier to keep up.
I think this is very important to attrack occasional players. A 100% obscure cup would get a very limited participation.

Also there has to be some kind of competition, not just manager1's pick against manager2's pick. Countries, genres, decades... something.

That said, here's my suggestion: Popular but underrated (more than xxx checks but low imdb rating and/or 0-1 official lists) vs. underseen (less than xxx checks).
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#31

Post by beavis »

starting with the limit of 1000 checks and 2 lists is exactly to open up the playing field (in the first round)
limiting the number of checks round after round gets you into underseen territory soon enough

I think aiming for underrated is too "risky", lot of potential hit-or-miss movies that will scare people off
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#32

Post by Traveller »

I assume the starting date is going to be discussed once the managers have signed up and the rules have been sorted out? Or is there a date being aimed for?
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#33

Post by zzzorf »

Traveller wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 4:00 pm I assume the starting date is going to be discussed once the managers have signed up and the rules have been sorted out? Or is there a date being aimed for?
No date yet but will be sorted in the next few days.
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#34

Post by wasabi »

I'm in, my goal for this time is getting into second round.
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#35

Post by russa03 »

I'd like to participate as a manager, but would people have a problem if I didn't vote much due to not being able to find all the films? It's the main reason i've rarely voted in the world cup.
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#36

Post by joachimt »

russa03 wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 4:58 pm I'd like to participate as a manager, but would people have a problem if I didn't vote much due to not being able to find all the films? It's the main reason i've rarely voted in the world cup.
No problem, but not finding movies shouldn’t be a problem. Just ask.
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#37

Post by Mario Gaborović »

russa03 wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 4:58 pm I'd like to participate as a manager, but would people have a problem if I didn't vote much due to not being able to find all the films? It's the main reason i've rarely voted in the world cup.
The managers should provide movies themselves; normally they wouldn't nominate them if they're unable to do so. I guess...
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#38

Post by connordenney »

I'm down to be a manager, but do you know roughly how many films we'd be expected to watch per week?
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#39

Post by zzzorf »

OK, well things aren't moving as quickly as I hoped, maybe because I haven't yet finalised the rules or a schedule so let's see what we can do.

By the end of this Sunday (8th) I would like to have all managers signed up. At the moment the manager count is 13 and my goal is to have 32 which would have us run the Cup the same way as the last World Cup. If we pull short I can modify the tournament (24 would be my next goal as we could do groups of 3 instead of 4).

I feel like the general consensus is that by making it too obscure means that not everyone would want to participate so I am willing to increase the check count to <1000 which does seem more realistic. I'm also going to go with the consensus and drop the country restrictions I suggested thus making the only other restriction that it hasn't been used in a Cup before.

I was going to say that we would kick off next month but basically the managers wouldn't need too long to find movies since we all have an abundance of movies to meet the criteria. So I think two weeks would be enough to get all picks in fiving Sunday 22nd as that deadline with the Cup kicking off in the days after. Running it like last World Cup would mean about 6 movies a month would be our speed.

In saying all this would everyone's preference be to scrap this Cup and instead just run a 5th World Cup as everyone knows what to expect from that?
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#40

Post by joachimt »

What if we’re stuck with this low number of manager? Maybe aim for 16 and make it a very small cup?
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