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Red Planet Films (Essential Cinema/Film Canon) - Discussion

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Torgo
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#81

Post by Torgo »

I honestly doubt that most of our voters could distinguish that from favorites.
On the contrary; many films where I see and "get" how they're important / essential haven't wowed me that much ..
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#82

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Torgo wrote: May 21st, 2021, 4:58 pm I honestly doubt that most of our voters could distinguish that from favorites.
On the contrary; many films where I see and "get" how they're important / essential haven't wowed me that much ..
Yes, films that really wowed me and/or made biggest impression on me, and have influenced the way I conceive the art form is almost the exact way I define a favorite.
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#83

Post by outdoorcats »

The idea makes sense to me. The way I would interpret it is, say you're a professor teaching a basic film history 101 class, and you want to pick 50 films for the curriculum. Simple as that.

Personally, I would try to A. represent all the major film movements B. represent a wide range of styles and approaches to storytelling, C. showcase some of the most influential films of all time and D. show the evolution of film language. Interpreted that way, it wouldn't be my favorite films, nor would it be just a list of films that top the critics polls, though there would be some overlap with both.

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#84

Post by beasterne »

Caracortada wrote: May 19th, 2021, 7:08 pm For me there are two kind of lists:
*Films I like (= my personal top 500)
*Films I'm supposed to like according to critics (= TSPDT top 1000)
185 films are in both lists, so I suppose I would have to pick 50 of those.

Proposed extra rules are problematic.
*One film per director on individual lists would make people like Hitchcock, Kubrick etc. victims of split voting, while probably everyone will agree on what's Orson Welles' most essential film. Max. two per director would be more acceptable.
*At least one or two per decade might be a good rule, but I don't think pre-1900 should be obliged, if even 1001 Movies YSSBYD only starts after 1900.
*At least 50% non-English on individual lists would be too high. At least 30% would be more acceptable.

"Essential" could mean the titles you couldn't avoid if you were to teach a course in film history. Whatever happens the result will be roughly the TSPDT top 50, so I don't really see how it could add much to the existing canons and lists.
These extra rules are proposed for the final list, not necessarily for individual submitted lists. If someone wanted to put 5 Hitchcock films on their personal list, or nominate 100% English language films, I think that should be allowed, but for the final list we would limit to one per director, decade, genre, and English language films accordingly.

I understand your split vote point, but I don’t think it would be too impactful to the final list. For example, the Arts & Faith official list also has a rule of 1 film per director, but Tarkovsky, Bresson, Dreyer, etc, are still landing at the top of the list even though they have multiple eligible films.
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#85

Post by xianjiro »

outdoorcats wrote: May 21st, 2021, 9:04 pm The idea makes sense to me. The way I would interpret it is, say you're a professor teaching a basic film history 101 class, and you want to pick 50 films for the curriculum. Simple as that.

Personally, I would try to A. represent all the major film movements B. represent a wide range of styles and approaches to storytelling, C. showcase some of the most influential films of all time and D. show the evolution of film language. Interpreted that way, it wouldn't be my favorite films, nor would it be just a list of films that top the critics polls, though there would be some overlap with both.
:thumbsup: well put, thanks! ;)
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#86

Post by Fergenaprido »

beasterne wrote: May 27th, 2021, 5:33 pm
Caracortada wrote: May 19th, 2021, 7:08 pm For me there are two kind of lists:
*Films I like (= my personal top 500)
*Films I'm supposed to like according to critics (= TSPDT top 1000)
185 films are in both lists, so I suppose I would have to pick 50 of those.

Proposed extra rules are problematic.
*One film per director on individual lists would make people like Hitchcock, Kubrick etc. victims of split voting, while probably everyone will agree on what's Orson Welles' most essential film. Max. two per director would be more acceptable.
*At least one or two per decade might be a good rule, but I don't think pre-1900 should be obliged, if even 1001 Movies YSSBYD only starts after 1900.
*At least 50% non-English on individual lists would be too high. At least 30% would be more acceptable.

"Essential" could mean the titles you couldn't avoid if you were to teach a course in film history. Whatever happens the result will be roughly the TSPDT top 50, so I don't really see how it could add much to the existing canons and lists.
These extra rules are proposed for the final list, not necessarily for individual submitted lists. If someone wanted to put 5 Hitchcock films on their personal list, or nominate 100% English language films, I think that should be allowed, but for the final list we would limit to one per director, decade, genre, and English language films accordingly.

I understand your split vote point, but I don’t think it would be too impactful to the final list. For example, the Arts & Faith official list also has a rule of 1 film per director, but Tarkovsky, Bresson, Dreyer, etc, are still landing at the top of the list even though they have multiple eligible films.
For Arts and Faith, though, they initially had a 2-film-per-director rule, and then they changed it after voting. What they did, then, was have users vote which of the top-two films for each director that had 2 in the top 100 they wanted to keep. In some instances, the initially-lower-ranked film was chosen.

I think I'm still going to run this project, but go with the "film professor on Mars" approach. I'll mull over the suggestions in this thread one last time over the weekend and then open the nominations thread separately.

Thanks everyone for the feedback, though; it's been much appreciated. :thumbsup:
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#87

Post by mjf314 »

outdoorcats wrote: May 21st, 2021, 9:04 pm The idea makes sense to me. The way I would interpret it is, say you're a professor teaching a basic film history 101 class, and you want to pick 50 films for the curriculum. Simple as that.
Assuming it's a 1 semester course, you'd probably only have time for about 10-15 features, and some short films, and some excerpts.

I just did a quick google and found some syllabuses with lists of films.

https://orion.sfasu.edu/courseinformati ... 9217742942
http://www.ohadlandesman.com/pdf/FilmHistory_FIT.pdf
https://www.seattleu.edu/media/college- ... llabus.pdf
http://people.umass.edu/comm340/syllabus.html
https://core.tamu.edu/pdf/FILM%20299-Syllabus.pdf
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#88

Post by mjf314 »

You have been selected as one of the first settlers for the colony on Mars. This is a one-way trip, and the next group of settlers won't be arriving until 50 years later. You are allowed to select 50 films to take with you (streaming online from Earth won't be possible), to showcase the best that cinema has to offer. These films will be shown to the settlers to enjoy (and maybe reminisce), but also used to instruct the first generation of Martians in the glory/history/wonder of cinema. Which 50 films do you select?
If there was a group of people going to Mars, they probably wouldn't care much about the history of cinema. Most of them would probably just want to be entertained. I think a good list would be similar to the IMDb top 250, or perhaps a mixture of IMDb and TSPDT.
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#89

Post by Fergenaprido »

mjf314 wrote: May 27th, 2021, 8:48 pm
You have been selected as one of the first settlers for the colony on Mars. This is a one-way trip, and the next group of settlers won't be arriving until 50 years later. You are allowed to select 50 films to take with you (streaming online from Earth won't be possible), to showcase the best that cinema has to offer. These films will be shown to the settlers to enjoy (and maybe reminisce), but also used to instruct the first generation of Martians in the glory/history/wonder of cinema. Which 50 films do you select?
If there was a group of people going to Mars, they probably wouldn't care much about the history of cinema. Most of them would probably just want to be entertained. I think a good list would be similar to the IMDb top 250, or perhaps a mixture of IMDb and TSPDT.
Party-pooper. :tongue: Embrace the frivolous inanity of the exercise and enjoy yourself! :D :P tehe

And if we end up with a list we're really really proud of, I can reach out to Elon Musk and start negotiations on who should be the one of us to go to Mars.
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#90

Post by AB537 »

beasterne wrote: May 27th, 2021, 5:33 pm
Caracortada wrote: May 19th, 2021, 7:08 pm For me there are two kind of lists:
*Films I like (= my personal top 500)
*Films I'm supposed to like according to critics (= TSPDT top 1000)
185 films are in both lists, so I suppose I would have to pick 50 of those.

Proposed extra rules are problematic.
*One film per director on individual lists would make people like Hitchcock, Kubrick etc. victims of split voting, while probably everyone will agree on what's Orson Welles' most essential film. Max. two per director would be more acceptable.
*At least one or two per decade might be a good rule, but I don't think pre-1900 should be obliged, if even 1001 Movies YSSBYD only starts after 1900.
*At least 50% non-English on individual lists would be too high. At least 30% would be more acceptable.

"Essential" could mean the titles you couldn't avoid if you were to teach a course in film history. Whatever happens the result will be roughly the TSPDT top 50, so I don't really see how it could add much to the existing canons and lists.
These extra rules are proposed for the final list, not necessarily for individual submitted lists. If someone wanted to put 5 Hitchcock films on their personal list, or nominate 100% English language films, I think that should be allowed, but for the final list we would limit to one per director, decade, genre, and English language films accordingly.

I understand your split vote point, but I don’t think it would be too impactful to the final list. For example, the Arts & Faith official list also has a rule of 1 film per director, but Tarkovsky, Bresson, Dreyer, etc, are still landing at the top of the list even though they have multiple eligible films.
My only reservation about the suggestion to limit to one film per director is what to do with a very limited number of people who made multiple films that could plausibly make the list in different categories. For example, looking at IMDB categories, I'm not necessarily making any of these arguments but in an aggregated poll I think one or more of the following results (and possibly other director duplicates that haven't jumped to mind) would be plausible:

1. Hitchcock: #1 Mystery and/or Thriller (Vertigo) and Horror (Psycho)
2. Welles: #1 Drama (Citizen Kane) and Film Noir (Touch of Evil)
3. Kubrick: #1 Comedy (Dr. Strangelove), Sci Fi (2001: A Space Odyssey) and Horror (The Shining)
4. Tarkovsky: #1 Biography (Andrei Rublev) and Sci Fi (Stalker)
5. Coppola: #1 Crime (The Godfather or Godfather Part II) and War (Apocalypse Now).
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#91

Post by Onderhond »

Why do I get the feeling that the second wave of settlers will find a base where everybody has committed suicide? Good plot for a film though :P
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#92

Post by mjf314 »

Instead of giving the Martian settlers a set of 50 films, can I just give them the anime series Aria? It's set on 24th century terraformed Mars, so they'll be able to relate to it. It might inspire them to try to make Mars look like it does in the anime (it looks like Venice).
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#93

Post by Torgo »

Ever considered that the settlers move to Mars to escape all the damn series and not be bombarded with even more of them in outer space? :folded:
It's ICM for "I colonize Mars", not ICS for "I collect series"! :rolleyes:
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#94

Post by mjf314 »

Here's another idea for the criteria (it's vague and open to interpretation, but it's just another idea to consider).
You live in a post-apocalyptic world in the late 21st century. All films have been destroyed. You've been selected to travel back in time to the year 2021 to save 50 films, for the sake of preserving pre-apocalyptic culture. Which 50 films do you save?
If you want the criteria to be more clear, you can use the same rules that TIFF used for their "Essential 100" list (I think the expert panel criteria is fairly clear, but the public survey criteria is a little vague).
The Essential 100
This “Essential 100” represents the merging of the Essential 100 as determined by an expert panel of tiff curators and the Essential 100 as determined by our stakeholders. See details below for how each list was created.

EXPERT PANEL

Five tiff curators debated more than a century’s worth of cinema over three months. They were bound by one rule and one definition. The rule: they could only select one film from each director. The definition: “essential cinema”, a phrase that balanced “best” and “most influential”.

PUBLIC SURVEY

In spring 2009, we sent out the following request to over 10,000 of our stakeholders – including passholders, Cinemathèque Ontario members, journalists, industry passholders, filmmakers and donors:

“You are invited to participate in our Essentials of World Cinema survey. Your contribution will be part of a unique list of movies that matter; the list will not only form the core of our first film screenings but inspire adventurous extension programming as well.

We define “essential” as something between “best” and “most important,” between your guilty pleasures and the films you respect the most. We encourage you to be playful, honest and thoughtful in your voting. Please try to limit your selections to one film per director. We feel this will allow for a more inclusive picture of world cinema.”
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#95

Post by mjf314 »

Torgo wrote: May 27th, 2021, 10:44 pm Ever considered that the settlers move to Mars to escape all the damn series and not be bombarded with even more of them in outer space? :folded:
It's ICM for "I colonize Mars", not ICS for "I collect series"! :rolleyes:
The first generation of Martian settlers will probably have a stressful life, so they need a relaxing anime series like Aria to reduce their stress.
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#96

Post by Fergenaprido »

Interesting twist, mjf. Thanks.
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#97

Post by 3eyes »

Just wondering about that June 30 deadline, which links to this thread. Is that a deadline for deciding the parameters for those lists or for submitting the lists themselves?
:run: STILL the Gaffer!
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#98

Post by Fergenaprido »

3eyes wrote: May 28th, 2021, 4:28 pm Just wondering about that June 30 deadline, which links to this thread. Is that a deadline for deciding the parameters for those lists or for submitting the lists themselves?
It was intended to be the deadline for the lists themselves, but I have no issue extending it further. Do you think people will need more than one month to come up with a ballot?
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#99

Post by joachimt »

Fergenaprido wrote: May 28th, 2021, 4:32 pm
3eyes wrote: May 28th, 2021, 4:28 pm Just wondering about that June 30 deadline, which links to this thread. Is that a deadline for deciding the parameters for those lists or for submitting the lists themselves?
It was intended to be the deadline for the lists themselves, but I have no issue extending it further. Do you think people will need more than one month to come up with a ballot?
So it's still on? I had a feeling the discussion was going towards "it's a pointless exercise", but I didn't keep track of every discussion for a week or so.
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#100

Post by Fergenaprido »

joachimt wrote: May 28th, 2021, 7:46 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: May 28th, 2021, 4:32 pm
3eyes wrote: May 28th, 2021, 4:28 pm Just wondering about that June 30 deadline, which links to this thread. Is that a deadline for deciding the parameters for those lists or for submitting the lists themselves?
It was intended to be the deadline for the lists themselves, but I have no issue extending it further. Do you think people will need more than one month to come up with a ballot?
So it's still on? I had a feeling the discussion was going towards "it's a pointless exercise", but I didn't keep track of every discussion for a week or so.
Yes, I've decided I'll still run the poll. Those who think it's a pointless exercise need not participate, but there were enough people interested for me to warrant doing it. :)
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#101

Post by pitchorneirda »

Darn I began to make the list and it's a lot harder than what I expected...I had 162 movies to begin with, I'm now down to 90 but I really can't see how I could cut another 40
"Art is like a fire, it is born from the very thing it burns" - Jean-Luc Godard
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#102

Post by Rufus-T »

TraverseTown wrote: May 16th, 2021, 2:29 am I wouldn't know how to respond to this because most of my favorite films are objectively horrible.
I see that It would be a bit different from favorite film list. Lots of us have guilt pleasures in the list that are not essential. I have plenty non-essential movies in my favorite list. This should be fun, but may take a lot of time to get a list. I'll try to get together a list before deadline.
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#103

Post by russa03 »

outdoorcats wrote: May 21st, 2021, 9:04 pm The idea makes sense to me. The way I would interpret it is, say you're a professor teaching a basic film history 101 class, and you want to pick 50 films for the curriculum. Simple as that.

Personally, I would try to A. represent all the major film movements B. represent a wide range of styles and approaches to storytelling, C. showcase some of the most influential films of all time and D. show the evolution of film language. Interpreted that way, it wouldn't be my favorite films, nor would it be just a list of films that top the critics polls, though there would be some overlap with both.
This is pretty much how i'm interpreting it.
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#104

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

russa03 wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 2:06 am
outdoorcats wrote: May 21st, 2021, 9:04 pm The idea makes sense to me. The way I would interpret it is, say you're a professor teaching a basic film history 101 class, and you want to pick 50 films for the curriculum. Simple as that.

Personally, I would try to A. represent all the major film movements B. represent a wide range of styles and approaches to storytelling, C. showcase some of the most influential films of all time and D. show the evolution of film language. Interpreted that way, it wouldn't be my favorite films, nor would it be just a list of films that top the critics polls, though there would be some overlap with both.
This is pretty much how i'm interpreting it.
Me third.
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#105

Post by WalterNeff »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 6:47 pm
russa03 wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 2:06 am
outdoorcats wrote: May 21st, 2021, 9:04 pm The idea makes sense to me. The way I would interpret it is, say you're a professor teaching a basic film history 101 class, and you want to pick 50 films for the curriculum. Simple as that.

Personally, I would try to A. represent all the major film movements B. represent a wide range of styles and approaches to storytelling, C. showcase some of the most influential films of all time and D. show the evolution of film language. Interpreted that way, it wouldn't be my favorite films, nor would it be just a list of films that top the critics polls, though there would be some overlap with both.
This is pretty much how i'm interpreting it.
Me third.
So I wonder how little such a list would differ from this list https://www.filmsite.org/alist.html
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#106

Post by russa03 »

WalterNeff wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 8:09 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 6:47 pm
russa03 wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 2:06 am

This is pretty much how i'm interpreting it.
Me third.
So I wonder how little such a list would differ from this list https://www.filmsite.org/alist.html
I think it's a decent list to start getting into films, it certainly has got a lot of great films but it's too conservative, it doesn't have a variety that's challenging. Worst aspect is it's bias toward the US. It has six musicals (all American). If you're going to pick six musicals, at least have one Bollywood or something like The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, which is different from the American standard. There are five westerns which aren't really that much different from one another when you only have 100 spots. And, where are the experimental, the-so-bad-it's good, African, South American, shorts, trash, animation, the ones like nothing else (Jarman's Blue, Marker's La jetée)?

If i was to choose 100 films to represent cinema I would have some of the same films but my list would look very different. This society has a different set of criteria from me so I can't compare too closely.
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#107

Post by Torgo »

russa03 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 10:13 pm the-so-bad-it's good, (...) trash,
Don't expect those to make our final list in any form, though ..
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#108

Post by russa03 »

Torgo wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 10:17 pm
russa03 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 10:13 pm the-so-bad-it's good, (...) trash,
Don't expect those to make our final list in any form, though ..
Probably not but I will include them in my list nonetheless. So-bad-it's good films aren't a huge part of my film viewing but still an interesting one. I considered Plan 9 from Outer Space, and The Room, and opted for the latter. For trash i picked Pink Flamingos. I have a few others that probably won't make the list either but everyone has their own criteria.
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#109

Post by Torgo »

I feel you, and Plan 9 would be the safest bet for our community. It just won't happen.
Good to shine a light on that, though.
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#110

Post by outdoorcats »

WalterNeff wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 8:09 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 6:47 pm
russa03 wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 2:06 am

This is pretty much how i'm interpreting it.
Me third.
So I wonder how little such a list would differ from this list https://www.filmsite.org/alist.html
Well, like I said, I'm trying to represent all the major film movements with at least one film. I have no idea why most of the films on that list are considered essential.

If you're curious, I have put together a list so far, though I'm not ready to finalize it:
Spoiler
1. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari -> German Expressionism
2. Battleship Potemkin ->Soviet Montage
3. Modern Times -> Silent Comedy/Response to newer technology
4. The Rules of the Game -> Poetic Realism
5. Bicycle Thieves -> Italian Neorealism
6. Late Spring -> Ozu (hugely influential film)
7. The Third Man -> British noir
8. The Wages of Fear ->The modern thriller / hugely influential film
9. Seven Samurai -> Kurosawa 1 / Jidai-gecki
10. Kiss Me Deadly -> U.S. Noir / Cold-war paranoia
11-13: The Apu Trilogy -> Parallel cinema movement
14. Kanal -> Polish School
15. Nights of Cabiria -> Fellini (hugely influential film)
16. Vertigo -> Hitchcock (hugely influential film)
17. Breathless -> French New Wave 1
18. Jules and Jim -> French New Wave 2
19. Psycho -> Hitchcock 2 (hugely influential film)
20. This Sporting Life -> British New Wave / kitchen sink
21. Winter Light -> Bergman / existentialism
22. Dog Star Man -> Experimental film
23. Woman in the Dunes -> Japanese New Wave
24. Black Girl -> Cinema of Senegal / Emerging voices in African cinema
25. Blowup -> Antonioni / Paranoia and the breakdown of society
26. Daisies -> Czech New Wave
27. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly -> Spaghetti Westerns
28. Don't Look Back -> Direct cinema
29. Entranced Earth -> Cinema Novo
30. 2001: A Space Odyssey -> Kubrick (hugely influential film)
31. Medium Cool -> Evolution of American cinema / changing politics and social mores of the late '60s
32. Punishment Park -> Watkins / Pseudo-documentaries / the "culture war"
33. The Traveler -> Iranian New Wave
34. Mirror -> Tarkovsky (hugely influential film)
35. Picnic at Hanging Rock -> Australian new wave
36. Suspiria -> Giallo
37. Killer of Sheep -> L.A. rebellion
38. Apocalypse Now -> Coppola (hugely influential film)
39. Raging Bull -> Scorsese (hugely influential film)
40. Akira -> Anime 1
41. My Neighbor Totoro -> Anime 2
42. Dekalog -> Kieslowski (hugely influential film)
43. Poison -> New queer cinema
44. Raise the Red Lantern -> Fifth Generation
45. Festen -> Dogme 95
46. Mulholland Dr. -> Lynch (hugely influential film) / surrealism in film
47. The World -> Sixth Generation
48. 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days -> Romanian New Wave
49. When the Levees Broke -> Lee / new voices in American cinema
50. Atanarjuat: The Fast Runner -> Rise of underrepresented/ignored voices in cinema with the digital age
Hmm, I might have to find a version of Poison with the pornographically explicit sex scenes removed for my curriculum... :think:

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russa03
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#111

Post by russa03 »

Torgo wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 10:40 pm I feel you, and Plan 9 would be the safest bet for our community. It just won't happen.
Good to shine a light on that, though.
:thumbsup:
I'll change it to Plan 9 if i see some people pick it.
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russa03
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#112

Post by russa03 »

outdoorcats wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 10:45 pm
If you're curious, I have put together a list so far, though I'm not ready to finalize it:
Spoiler
1. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari -> German Expressionism
2. Battleship Potemkin ->Soviet Montage
3. Modern Times -> Silent Comedy/Response to newer technology
4. The Rules of the Game -> Poetic Realism
5. Bicycle Thieves -> Italian Neorealism
6. Late Spring -> Ozu (hugely influential film)
7. The Third Man -> British noir
8. The Wages of Fear ->The modern thriller / hugely influential film
9. Seven Samurai -> Kurosawa 1 / Jidai-gecki
10. Kiss Me Deadly -> U.S. Noir / Cold-war paranoia
11-13: The Apu Trilogy -> Parallel cinema movement
14. Kanal -> Polish School
15. Nights of Cabiria -> Fellini (hugely influential film)
16. Vertigo -> Hitchcock (hugely influential film)
17. Breathless -> French New Wave 1
18. Jules and Jim -> French New Wave 2
19. Psycho -> Hitchcock 2 (hugely influential film)
20. This Sporting Life -> British New Wave / kitchen sink
21. Winter Light -> Bergman / existentialism
22. Dog Star Man -> Experimental film
23. Woman in the Dunes -> Japanese New Wave
24. Black Girl -> Cinema of Senegal / Emerging voices in African cinema
25. Blowup -> Antonioni / Paranoia and the breakdown of society
26. Daisies -> Czech New Wave
27. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly -> Spaghetti Westerns
28. Don't Look Back -> Direct cinema
29. Entranced Earth -> Cinema Novo
30. 2001: A Space Odyssey -> Kubrick (hugely influential film)
31. Medium Cool -> Evolution of American cinema / changing politics and social mores of the late '60s
32. Punishment Park -> Watkins / Pseudo-documentaries / the "culture war"
33. The Traveler -> Iranian New Wave
34. Mirror -> Tarkovsky (hugely influential film)
35. Picnic at Hanging Rock -> Australian new wave
36. Suspiria -> Giallo
37. Killer of Sheep -> L.A. rebellion
38. Apocalypse Now -> Coppola (hugely influential film)
39. Raging Bull -> Scorsese (hugely influential film)
40. Akira -> Anime 1
41. My Neighbor Totoro -> Anime 2
42. Dekalog -> Kieslowski (hugely influential film)
43. Poison -> New queer cinema
44. Raise the Red Lantern -> Fifth Generation
45. Festen -> Dogme 95
46. Mulholland Dr. -> Lynch (hugely influential film) / surrealism in film
47. The World -> Sixth Generation
48. 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days -> Romanian New Wave
49. When the Levees Broke -> Lee / new voices in American cinema
50. Atanarjuat: The Fast Runner -> Rise of underrepresented/ignored voices in cinema with the digital age
Hmm, I might have to find a version of Poison with the pornographically explicit sex scenes removed for my curriculum... :think:
Good selection. Only things i would disagree with, i wouldn't have two from same movement even if French New Wave is an important one. Two anime (Disney, maybe?) Pather Panchali can cover the trilogy (at least i did that). Also, having two films from the same director as i think a few users have mentioned having a 'one per director' rule.
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Torgo
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#113

Post by Torgo »

That's a selection that sure works, and obviously a lot of thought has been put into. I'd argue that some of the waves / films just aren't that important and essential to cinema history when you're having only 50 spots to assign. I'm not going to say that it's a list that doesn't make sense in the way it's constructed, but I view it from another angle.
What had cinema to offer in the last 20 years - does it come down to those 5 works named here? Hm. Romania? Hm. Atanarjuat? Hm.
There are about 1,5 horror titles in this selection, and the genre name itself doesn't even appear (they're rather thrillers). This will hurt many buffs. ;) Something's just missing from history for me when I look at that.
I'll force no one to include, say, Star Wars or Indiana Jones or some other Spielberg into a thin canon, but there's not a single popcorn film on the whole list and nothing that will be viewed outside arthouse circles beyond 1980 (maybe exclude Anime + Mulholland, but that's really it). It makes sense if you have an academic stance and want to cover different points of evolution for the art form and don't want to neglect particular regions of the world (Black Girl, 4 Months), but then other chapters just won't exist. It's tough, I know.

I'm just thinking that maybe Onderhond would have never chose film as a hobby if those 50 titles is what it comes down to. And I would study it, but not love it, I guess.

Proofreading: There's Kurosawa 1, but not a 2. :P You planned on an additional Rashomon, Ikiru or Dersu, maybe?
(Mirror instead of Stalker .. that's a bold one!)
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outdoorcats
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#114

Post by outdoorcats »

russa03 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 11:34 pm
outdoorcats wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 10:45 pm
If you're curious, I have put together a list so far, though I'm not ready to finalize it:
Spoiler
1. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari -> German Expressionism
2. Battleship Potemkin ->Soviet Montage
3. Modern Times -> Silent Comedy/Response to newer technology
4. The Rules of the Game -> Poetic Realism
5. Bicycle Thieves -> Italian Neorealism
6. Late Spring -> Ozu (hugely influential film)
7. The Third Man -> British noir
8. The Wages of Fear ->The modern thriller / hugely influential film
9. Seven Samurai -> Kurosawa / Jidai-gecki
10. Kiss Me Deadly -> U.S. Noir / Cold-war paranoia
11-13: The Apu Trilogy -> Parallel cinema movement
14. Kanal -> Polish School
15. Nights of Cabiria -> Fellini (hugely influential film)
16. Vertigo -> Hitchcock (hugely influential film)
17. Breathless -> French New Wave 1
18. Jules and Jim -> French New Wave 2
19. Psycho -> Hitchcock 2 (hugely influential film)
20. This Sporting Life -> British New Wave / kitchen sink
21. Winter Light -> Bergman / existentialism
22. Dog Star Man -> Experimental film
23. Woman in the Dunes -> Japanese New Wave
24. Black Girl -> Cinema of Senegal / Emerging voices in African cinema
25. Blowup -> Antonioni / Paranoia and the breakdown of society
26. Daisies -> Czech New Wave
27. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly -> Spaghetti Westerns
28. Don't Look Back -> Direct cinema
29. Entranced Earth -> Cinema Novo
30. 2001: A Space Odyssey -> Kubrick (hugely influential film)
31. Medium Cool -> Evolution of American cinema / changing politics and social mores of the late '60s
32. Punishment Park -> Watkins / Pseudo-documentaries / the "culture war"
33. The Traveler -> Iranian New Wave
34. Mirror -> Tarkovsky (hugely influential film)
35. Picnic at Hanging Rock -> Australian new wave
36. Suspiria -> Giallo
37. Killer of Sheep -> L.A. rebellion
38. Apocalypse Now -> Coppola (hugely influential film)
39. Raging Bull -> Scorsese (hugely influential film)
40. Akira -> Anime 1
41. My Neighbor Totoro -> Anime 2
42. Dekalog -> Kieslowski (hugely influential film)
43. Poison -> New queer cinema
44. Raise the Red Lantern -> Fifth Generation
45. Festen -> Dogme 95
46. Mulholland Dr. -> Lynch (hugely influential film) / surrealism in film
47. The World -> Sixth Generation
48. 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days -> Romanian New Wave
49. When the Levees Broke -> Lee / new voices in American cinema
50. Atanarjuat: The Fast Runner -> Rise of underrepresented/ignored voices in cinema with the digital age
Hmm, I might have to find a version of Poison with the pornographically explicit sex scenes removed for my curriculum... :think:
Good selection. Only things i would disagree with, i wouldn't have two from same movement even if French New Wave is an important one. Two anime (Disney, maybe?) Pather Panchali can cover the trilogy (at least i did that). Also, having two films from the same director as i think a few users have mentioned having a 'one per director' rule.
I wrestled over those very questions, but in the case of two from the same movement, they are two films that showcase vastly different styles. Breathless hardly represents the French New Wave, but can't be ignored as it's one of the most influential and pivotal films of all time, and Akira and My Neighbor Totoro are both hugely influential in completely different ways (and between them showcase the depth and range of anime). I believe Hitchcock is the only director I have 2 films from, if only because Vertigo and Psycho are both 2 of the most influential, referenced, homaged and revered films ever around the world, but for completely different reasons and in different ways.

I'm more concerned with the fact that I don't have any Bollywood films when that's such a huge phenomenon. But I've barely seen any (as of yet).

A lie ain't a 'side of the story.' It's just a lie.
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outdoorcats
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#115

Post by outdoorcats »

Torgo wrote: June 4th, 2021, 12:26 am That's a selection that sure works, and obviously a lot of thought has been put into. I'd argue that some of the waves / films just aren't that important and essential to cinema history when you're having only 50 spots to assign. I'm not going to say that it's a list that doesn't make sense in the way it's constructed, but I view it from another angle.
What had cinema to offer in the last 20 years - does it come down to those 5 works named here? Hm. Romania? Hm. Atanarjuat? Hm.
There are about 1,5 horror titles in this selection, and the genre name itself doesn't even appear (they're rather thrillers). This will hurt many buffs. ;) Something's just missing from history for me when I look at that.
I'll force no one to include, say, Star Wars or Indiana Jones or some other Spielberg into a thin canon, but there's not a single popcorn film on the whole list and nothing that will be viewed outside arthouse circles beyond 1980 (maybe exclude Anime + Mulholland, but that's really it). It makes sense if you have an academic stance and want to cover different points of evolution for the art form and don't want to neglect particular regions of the world (Black Girl, 4 Months), but then other chapters just won't exist. It's tough, I know.

I'm just thinking that maybe Onderhond would have never chose film as a hobby if those 50 titles is what it comes down to. And I would study it, but not love it, I guess.

Proofreading: There's Kurosawa 1, but not a 2. :P You planned on an additional Rashomon, Ikiru or Dersu, maybe?
(Mirror instead of Stalker .. that's a bold one!)
Ignoring the Romanian New Wave or the new wave of independent films being made by indigenous communities kind of compounds the problem toplists already have, doesn't it? It pushes the narrative that the only movements that "matter" are the ones from the same 5-6 countries, which becomes a self-feeding narrative. The Romanian New Wave is a huge deal; within the span of a few years Romania became one of the biggest international exporters of critically acclaimed arthouse films and they've been a major player ever since.

I'd argue the cultural importance of the new wave of indigenous films (following Atanarjuat, you also have The Land Has Eyes, Tanna, On the Ice, The Body Remembers When the World Broke Open, plus respectful films by outsiders that attempt an "insider's perspective" such as Ixcanul, Embrace of the Serpent/Birds of Passage, etc.) outweighs their lack of visibility or popularity. And ultimately going forward, as higher-quality video becomes more and more affordable, I think it's something we're going to see a lot more of in the future.

If you think I'm suggesting all cinema had to offer in the past 20 years was those 5 films, just go back and read my prompt again! That's not what I set out to do.

" It makes sense if you have an academic stance and want to cover different points of evolution for the art form and don't want to neglect particular regions of the world"

Exactly! lol. This is my film history 101 (and I am assuming my "students" have already seen Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars, and Pulp Fiction). It is not my capsule of film to send to Mars. My love of horror is pretty well documented on these boards, so if it was that, expect a lot of horror. But German Expressionism and Giallo are the only horror-centric major film movements I'm aware of (except slashers, maybe? but slashers are essentially ripped from giallo. or the Spanish-language supernatural horror films of the '00s - somewhat influential, but brief).

I had High and Low, which I was going to include because it showcased a completely different side of Kurosawa. Ultimately, I couldn't squeeze it in.
Last edited by outdoorcats on June 4th, 2021, 3:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

A lie ain't a 'side of the story.' It's just a lie.
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Torgo
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#116

Post by Torgo »

outdoorcats wrote: June 4th, 2021, 2:29 am Akira and My Neighbor Totoro are both hugely influential in completely different ways (and between them showcase the depth and range of anime)
Nobody will argue against that, but showcasing two Anime from the same year while at the same time featuring not a single other drawn film in a canon of 50 titles is .. radical. :blink: Yeah the list isn't taking Hollywood too serious, but no Disney film, neither from the 30s/40s nor The Lion King or even Toy Story? Is the whole animation genre less influential than a second entry for Hitchcock or the French new wave?
No front :)
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outdoorcats
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#117

Post by outdoorcats »

Torgo wrote: June 4th, 2021, 2:48 am
outdoorcats wrote: June 4th, 2021, 2:29 am Akira and My Neighbor Totoro are both hugely influential in completely different ways (and between them showcase the depth and range of anime)
Nobody will argue against that, but showcasing two Anime from the same year while at the same time featuring not a single other drawn film in a canon of 50 titles is .. radical. :blink: Yeah the list isn't taking Hollywood too serious, but no Disney film, neither from the 30s/40s nor The Lion King or even Toy Story? Is the whole animation genre less influential than a second entry for Hitchcock or the French new wave?
No front :)
Check my updates. But again, here's the way I approached this list: "A. represent all the major film movements B. represent a wide range of styles and approaches to storytelling, C. showcase some of the most influential films of all time and D. show the evolution of film language." I said nothing about checking all the genre boxes. :shrug:

I did include 2 animated films though, both of which are quite influential in Western animation (Totoro and Miyazaki in general are of course a big influence on Pixar), and animation literally around the world. So animation...pretty well represented if you ask me!

A lie ain't a 'side of the story.' It's just a lie.
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Torgo
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#118

Post by Torgo »

Sorry, haven't seen your edits. I was thinking that by your logic of waves, influence and the evolution of film language it would make more sense to name the first huge player for animated films. :think:
Because I guess those early Disney films did have some impact and influence on the 40-50 years of cinema before Akira/Totoro.* I'm thinking of Bambi, Fantasia, Snow White, Dumbo, you know. And of course there were other types of animation, too.


*I personally vastly prefer Akira & Totoro over old Disney films (some nostalgic feelings ignored or not), just to be clear.

Sorry, Part 2: Haven't seen that it was you who explained the A-D plan for what might be the most essential films of all time. I could still disagree here and there, but it's your list, not mine. I will respect that.
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#119

Post by outdoorcats »

The one I'd be most tempted to include is Snow White.

A lie ain't a 'side of the story.' It's just a lie.
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#120

Post by Lakigigar »

I don't see the point of doing this, especially given 1. most of us are already biased in what we see as important or what our taste is as we already steer towards what is known and less towards the unknown. For me it feels like re-iterating what film critics say and also as preaching to your own parish. And 2. What is objective and what is subjective, and I even doubt some users here are able to distinguish this.

In terms of movies that have amazed me most or impacted me most, yes i probably have my own top list for that that i submit for the ICM top 1000. In terms of objective film canons, how many film projects do we already have that we contribute to (IMDb, DtC, ICM <400, all of our top lists) or how many projects do film critics have (S&S, TSPDT, ...).

It's just better to make our top 1000 official and consider that the canon. I feel like there is just more to gain if we just collaborate with other film communities in exploring areas that haven't good lists / canon lists yet. I feel like there's much more to gain from that. Like for example an Asian 21st century top list (and collaborating perhaps with Reddit, Letterboxd, Moviemeter and so on), to create such a great list and than make "official". It at least offers something "new", as opposed to the 72st another canon list of the same movies over & over & over & over again.

You have to wonder why our own top 1000 list doesn't even have one unofficial movie in it. Not even one... . I think our focus is way too narrowminded, especially with watching all that is official and none that aren't, while there are plenty of good unofficial movies too, sometimes unknown gems.
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