Welcome to the ICM Forum. If you have an account but have trouble logging in, or have other questions, see THIS THREAD.
NOTE: Board emails should be working again. Information on forum upgrade and style issues.
Podcast: Talking Images (Episode 22 released November 17th * EXCLUSIVE * We Are Mentioned in a Book!!! Interview with Mary Guillermin on Rapture, JG & More)
Polls: 1970s (Results), 1950 (Jun 24th), Japan (Jun 30th), Essential Cinema (Jul 11th)
Challenges: Italy, Queer Cinema, Film From Each Year
Film of the Week: Drive a Crooked Road, July nominations (Jun 25th)

Red Planet Films (Essential Cinema/Film Canon) - Discussion

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 7109
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#41

Post by Onderhond »

Personally I don't see the point of trying to come up with another "factual" canon. If the point is to come up with a list of important films, there really isn't a need for a poll and the chance that we can do a better job than film historians sounds a bit preposterous. I don't really see what this exercise will add to the other canon projects that already exist.
Fergenaprido wrote: May 16th, 2021, 5:12 pm I don't quite understand the distinction you're making, but I think it's the former, not the latter.
If it's a list for "serious" cinephiles, then it would be films that go beyond the ones you should have seen should you want to consider yourself a serious cinephile. For example, I'd feel quite silly recommending films from Hitchcock, Bergman or Tarkovsky to people who brand themselves cinephile, since I'd figure they should already be very aware of these directors. So a list for cinephiles would be one where people are pushed to look beyond the obvious recommends. Personally that's something I think this forum could do.
Fergenaprido wrote: May 16th, 2021, 5:12 pm Your contribution is always welcome, Onderhond.
Appreciated, but when it comes to more objective standards and typical cinephilia, I don't think I could contribute that much. I'm usually on the side that's trying to tear down these institutions :D
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11724
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#42

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Onderhond wrote: May 17th, 2021, 10:49 am Personally I don't see the point of trying to come up with another "factual" canon. If the point is to come up with a list of important films, there really isn't a need for a poll and the chance that we can do a better job than film historians sounds a bit preposterous. I don't really see what this exercise will add to the other canon projects that already exist.
Fergenaprido wrote: May 16th, 2021, 5:12 pm I don't quite understand the distinction you're making, but I think it's the former, not the latter.
If it's a list for "serious" cinephiles, then it would be films that go beyond the ones you should have seen should you want to consider yourself a serious cinephile. For example, I'd feel quite silly recommending films from Hitchcock, Bergman or Tarkovsky to people who brand themselves cinephile, since I'd figure they should already be very aware of these directors. So a list for cinephiles would be one where people are pushed to look beyond the obvious recommends. Personally that's something I think this forum could do.
That’s basically DTC, <400, On O official list, underrated, the WC, FotW and all other projects in which here people try to recommend underseen/hidden gems.
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11724
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#43

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

I do share the concern that our list will probably differ very very little from other lists if this type, like TSPDT. If only because the term “essential” is very self referential. A movie is essential cause it’s a cornerstone in film history, something you should have seen to be able to follow the discourse about films, which is why it’s often mentioned and in many lists, which is why it’s unavoidable in discussion, which it’s why it’s essential, which it’s why it’s in a canon list, etc.

But I’m not saying we shouldn’t do this. It could be a fun and interesting exercises, especially if there is some discussion and not just people dropping list with nominations.
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 3300
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#44

Post by Torgo »

mjf314 wrote: May 16th, 2021, 11:33 pm And I think it would only be a good list if it had enough variety, which is difficult to do with a poll.
The thing is .. this is very true. It's way easier to do for one expert (yeah, "expert", I know :rolleyes: ), e.g. critic and/or film historian than by a poll result.
Because just think of how many films by Stanley Kubrick may find their way into the results, because he has many hugely influential films where each forum member might go for another one (or three or whatever) as the most essential. 2001, Strangelove, Clockwork, Lyndon and Shining all definitely will make the Top 1000, maybe also Paths, EWS, Jacket and Spartacus, who knows. One individual person, be it a critic or a forum user, would probably be balanced enough to rule a few out, but what if the hive mind decides for so many to be important? Same might happen for Hitchcock, Bergman, Spielberg, Miyazaki, ..
So it might be necessary to limit directors to only appear 5 times in the whole poll or something like that.

mjf314 wrote: May 16th, 2021, 11:33 pm I think the optimal strategy is to watch a variety of films at first, and then start watching more of the stuff that you like.
Definitely.
But then that's the funny thing about ESSENTIAL films: They're just .. essential. You need to (re)visit them sooner or later, no matter if it's the stuff you like or not. Being a serious cinephile, that is. :shifty:
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 3300
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#45

Post by Torgo »

Onderhond wrote: May 17th, 2021, 10:49 am to consider yourself a serious cinephile. For example, I'd feel quite silly recommending films from Hitchcock, Bergman or Tarkovsky to people who brand themselves cinephile, since I'd figure they should already be very aware of these directors. So a list for cinephiles would be one where people are pushed to look beyond the obvious recommends.
Mh, that's definitely another sort of exercise then which must be akin to <400 and DtC.
"Let's collect the essential pieces in film history .. except the most essential, you know." :blink: :whistling:
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 7109
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#46

Post by Onderhond »

Torgo wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:09 pm "Let's collect the essential pieces in film history .. except the most essential, you know." :blink: :whistling:
I think it could be different from stuff like the DtC and the likes, as these are mostly about popularity and personal taste again. The question "what should I explore once I've gone through the essentials" hasn't been answered too often. Call it second-tier essentials if you will (since this forum seems to love a good tier).

I just don't see a point in making another list with some Bergmans and Hitchcocks and wonder how people here think it could differ from any of the (many) similar projects that already exist?
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 3300
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#47

Post by Torgo »

There is a risk of little brand recognition that I, too, see. But as Ferg said ..

Fergenaprido wrote: May 16th, 2021, 12:33 am Why: Because it surprised me that the forum had never put together a film canon like many other sites have done, and I think it's time, after 10 years, for us to publish our own.
.. it's ours and we deserve it! People have taken millions of pictures of sunsets but as long as it's your own and it's beautiful and captures your own personal moment and you like to capture that .. go for it. :P
User avatar
TraverseTown
Posts: 404
Joined: January 25th, 2013, 7:00 am
Location: New York
Contact:

#48

Post by TraverseTown »

This is tangential possibly, but I’d be curious to see a version of our 1001 favorites that limited the list length to something like 50 films and see how that affects the overall ranking.
User avatar
Carmel1379
Donator
Posts: 4658
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 7:00 am
Contact:

#49

Post by Carmel1379 »

Perhaps semi-related to TraverseTown's suggestion above -- and semi-related to this list curated by the human being some of you might remember as Cynical Cinephile on this forum -- I would be curious to see a list based on the criterion of "canonical titles", where by "title" I mean the "name" of the film (>45 minutes), just like for example philosopher Deleuze and psychotherapist Guattari gave a two volume work of theirs the overarching title "Capitalism & Schizophrenia", probably to make some kind of point.

In that case, my list would definitely include the animated film 'Whisper of the Heart', the Alfred Hitchcock masterpiece 'Rear Window', and the weirdness called 'Wax or the Discovery of Television Among the Bees'.

Just an idea.
arittake no (yume (nikki)) & I suppose I’ll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies

:imdb: IMDb Revolutions :letbxd: exwordpress blue :ICM:
User avatar
Dolwphin
Posts: 4783
Joined: July 10th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

#50

Post by Dolwphin »

All movies that have been satirized on The Simpsons is obviously essential cinema. I'm quite proud that I solved this juggernaut. Now, somebody compile such a list!
Top 100 | Top 250

Member of the Experimental Mafia | What's My Line? #1 Fan

Image
User avatar
Ivan0716
Posts: 1266
Joined: February 5th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#51

Post by Ivan0716 »

mjf314 wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:45 am Until we have a clear definition, I don't think you can say that we're less qualified than experts.

If essential means "subjectively good", then everyone is equally qualified.

If essential means "good according to critical consensus", all you have to do is copy/paste S&S, so everyone is equally qualified.

If essential means "objectively good", then no one is qualified, because there's no such thing.
For all our sakes let's just assume it's not any of those.

mjf314 wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:45 am If essential means influential, then a film historian would be the most qualified, but it wouldn't be very hard to make a good list with some research. Actually there are people on this forum who have taken courses in film history, so they're somewhat qualified, but perhaps not as qualified as an expert.
Do you think this is something that should/can be decided in a poll?

Sure, there are many people on here with film knowledge that I really admire, and I would definitely be interested to see what they(individually) consider to be essential cinema(though I still wouldn't take it seriously)...and then there are those who put less thought into checking off film lists than they do grocery lists, which is fine, everyone should watch what they want, how they want, but I have no interest in what they have to say on this subject.
mjf314
Moderator
Posts: 12001
Joined: May 8th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#52

Post by mjf314 »

Ivan0716 wrote: May 17th, 2021, 10:09 pm Do you think this is something that should/can be decided in a poll?
If you mean an iCM Forum poll (where anyone can participate), then no. The results probably wouldn't be very good. If you asked film historians to vote for the most influential films, you'd probably get a good list.
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11724
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#53

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

mjf314 wrote: May 17th, 2021, 10:25 pm
Ivan0716 wrote: May 17th, 2021, 10:09 pm Do you think this is something that should/can be decided in a poll?
If you mean an iCM Forum poll (where anyone can participate), then no. The results probably wouldn't be very good. If you asked film historians to vote for the most influential films, you'd probably get a good list.
We are the iCM Forum, so Ivan most probably meant the first and not the later.
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11724
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#54

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Dolwphin wrote: May 17th, 2021, 8:53 pm All movies that have been satirized on The Simpsons is obviously essential cinema. I'm quite proud that I solved this juggernaut. Now, somebody compile such a list!
:lol:
Indeed. This topic is solved and can be closed.
zomgmouse
Posts: 72
Joined: February 26th, 2014, 7:00 am
Contact:

#55

Post by zomgmouse »

To me a canon is a starting point. A baseline. Films listed are representative of wider concepts/gateways to further discovery. I think one film per director is enough. I also like organising it in subcategories that give an overall picture of the history and spread of cinema.
User avatar
WalterNeff
Donator
Posts: 3418
Joined: July 27th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#56

Post by WalterNeff »

Taking the over/under on which gets finished first - the quest to rescue the IMDb lists or the iCM Essential Cinema list.
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 3300
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#57

Post by Torgo »

Said quest is tough, but at least over there we know what an IMDb list consists of .. :ph43r:
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5663
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#58

Post by Fergenaprido »

What if the project was phrased this way?
You have been selected as one of the first settlers for the colony on Mars. This is a one-way trip, and the next group of settlers won't be arriving until 50 years later. You are allowed to select 50 films to take with you (streaming online from Earth won't be possible), to showcase the best that cinema has to offer. These films will be shown to the settlers to enjoy (and maybe reminisce), but also used to instruct the first generation of Martians in the glory/history/wonder of cinema. Which 50 films do you select?
Making it a little less serious, but also (hopefully) better defining the scope?

Kind of like the "Desert Island Discs" concept, except it's movies instead of music and Mars instead of an island.
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
Carmel1379
Donator
Posts: 4658
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 7:00 am
Contact:

#59

Post by Carmel1379 »

Fergenaprido wrote: May 18th, 2021, 5:06 am What if the project was phrased this way?
You have been selected as one of the first settlers for the colony on Mars. This is a one-way trip, and the next group of settlers won't be arriving until 50 years later. You are allowed to select 50 films to take with you (streaming online from Earth won't be possible), to showcase the best that cinema has to offer. These films will be shown to the settlers to enjoy (and maybe reminisce), but also used to instruct the first generation of Martians in the glory/history/wonder of cinema. Which 50 films do you select?
Making it a little less serious, but also (hopefully) better defining the scope?

Kind of like the "Desert Island Discs" concept, except it's movies instead of music and Mars instead of an island.
This post is music to my ears, thank you. :wub:

So it's established 'Interstellar' by Our Lord & Saviour Christopher Nolan wins, yes? :circle:
arittake no (yume (nikki)) & I suppose I’ll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies

:imdb: IMDb Revolutions :letbxd: exwordpress blue :ICM:
beasterne
Posts: 811
Joined: May 22nd, 2013, 6:00 am
Contact:

#60

Post by beasterne »

Thinking about this list some more, I am still definitely interested in participating. I'm also sure that this forum can put together an interesting list, given the depth and breadth of film interest here.

I think guardrails would help us create a more dynamic final list. Here are a few I'm thinking of:

- Cap the final list at a specific number: 50/52/100/250 films, something along those lines, to narrow the scope of an essential cinema project
- At least one film from pre-1900 and every decade since (maybe no 2020s?)
- No more than one film per director
- At least 50% non-English language/silent films
- At least 1 film from each of the IMDb primary film genre categories (exclude mini-series)

Participants should still be allowed to submit whatever films they want, but if we have known criteria going in then that knowledge will do a lot to shape the outcome of the list (what film do I want to submit that could fill the documentary slot? what film do I want to submit to fill the 1910s slot? etc).
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 7109
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#61

Post by Onderhond »

I could definitely make a "for settlers on Mars list", but I doubt anyone would consider those films to be essential.
Sounds like a fun exercise though, might just participate for that reason alone :)
User avatar
lineuphere
Posts: 267
Joined: January 2nd, 2019, 4:03 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

#62

Post by lineuphere »

This will be fun.
And I enjoy beasterne's guardrail ideas: one film per director, at least 50% non-English, for sure.
Image
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11724
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#63

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Fergenaprido wrote: May 18th, 2021, 5:06 am What if the project was phrased this way?
You have been selected as one of the first settlers for the colony on Mars. This is a one-way trip, and the next group of settlers won't be arriving until 50 years later. You are allowed to select 50 films to take with you (streaming online from Earth won't be possible), to showcase the best that cinema has to offer. These films will be shown to the settlers to enjoy (and maybe reminisce), but also used to instruct the first generation of Martians in the glory/history/wonder of cinema. Which 50 films do you select?
Making it a little less serious, but also (hopefully) better defining the scope?

Kind of like the "Desert Island Discs" concept, except it's movies instead of music and Mars instead of an island.
To me that’s something completely different than an essential cinema list. Such a list would come even closer to just my personal top 50. And the final result most probably even closer to just our top 50 movies. What I would recommend to random settlers differs from what I consider essential movies for cinephiles. And for the first generation of Martians these 50 movies the essential part of these movies is meaningless. Essential cinema only exist in context of other films and film history.
tommy_leazaq
Donator
Posts: 3651
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Chennai, India
Contact:

#64

Post by tommy_leazaq »

Well, our forum already has a essential film canon list :whistling:
The length of the list is also about right for a serious ICMphile.. :turned:
User avatar
Caracortada
Posts: 764
Joined: November 21st, 2014, 7:00 am
Contact:

#65

Post by Caracortada »

For me there are two kind of lists:
*Films I like (= my personal top 500)
*Films I'm supposed to like according to critics (= TSPDT top 1000)
185 films are in both lists, so I suppose I would have to pick 50 of those.

Proposed extra rules are problematic.
*One film per director on individual lists would make people like Hitchcock, Kubrick etc. victims of split voting, while probably everyone will agree on what's Orson Welles' most essential film. Max. two per director would be more acceptable.
*At least one or two per decade might be a good rule, but I don't think pre-1900 should be obliged, if even 1001 Movies YSSBYD only starts after 1900.
*At least 50% non-English on individual lists would be too high. At least 30% would be more acceptable.

"Essential" could mean the titles you couldn't avoid if you were to teach a course in film history. Whatever happens the result will be roughly the TSPDT top 50, so I don't really see how it could add much to the existing canons and lists.
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 11724
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#66

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Caracortada wrote: May 19th, 2021, 7:08 pm For me there are two kind of lists:
*Films I like (= my personal top 500)
*Films I'm supposed to like according to critics (= TSPDT top 1000)
185 films are in both lists, so I suppose I would have to pick 50 of those.

Proposed extra rules are problematic.
*One film per director on individual lists would make people like Hitchcock, Kubrick etc. victims of split voting, while probably everyone will agree on what's Orson Welles' most essential film. Max. two per director would be more acceptable.
*At least one or two per decade might be a good rule, but I don't think pre-1900 should be obliged, if even 1001 Movies YSSBYD only starts after 1900.
*At least 50% non-English on individual lists would be too high. At least 30% would be more acceptable.

"Essential" could mean the titles you couldn't avoid if you were to teach a course in film history. Whatever happens the result will be roughly the TSPDT top 50, so I don't really see how it could add much to the existing canons and lists.
Split voting is indeed likely to happen and another reason why a simple poll isn’t the way to make a list like this, but instead should be done with discussion leading to an agreement to f.e. which movie per director gets on the list.
User avatar
WalterNeff
Donator
Posts: 3418
Joined: July 27th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#67

Post by WalterNeff »

We could call it Doubting the Canon.
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 3300
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#68

Post by Torgo »

WalterNeff wrote: May 20th, 2021, 8:30 pm We could call it Doubting the Canon.
:D Brilliant
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5663
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#69

Post by Fergenaprido »

Torgo wrote: May 20th, 2021, 8:40 pm
WalterNeff wrote: May 20th, 2021, 8:30 pm We could call it Doubting the Canon.
:D Brilliant
I actually kind of like that. Keeps the DTC name, a bit tongue-in-cheek, and still fits the general idea. Amazing what the change of one letter can do! :D
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9608
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#70

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond wrote: May 17th, 2021, 10:49 am So a list for cinephiles would be one where people are pushed to look beyond the obvious recommends.
This is an appealing concept though I think one idea that's been lost is the "one film a week" idea I saw in Fergie's OP (or follow up). The general idea of "here are 52 films you probably missed but here's why they matter" is workable - certainly a whole lot more workable than a 1000 title canon that changes every year, but clearly that appeals to many of our users. After reading beavis' latest comments, I remembered going through the Cousins' Odyssey documentary. Imagine watching an episode of that, viewing each of the featured films, reading about the film just viewed, and then maybe rewatching the episode. That would be a very serious study of cinema.

So how could we do this differently? I still see the basic idea as workable and valuable. It's probably not possible for anyone to go through the Cousins' documentary line by line even if one was moved to try, but if someone is trying to make the shift from casual film fan to kinophile, this project could be what we usually call an introductory list.

And while I think it's useful to limit list submissions to a given length, maybe the output should dictate the final length of the project list: we might find we actually need 75 titles to cover all the critical movements, directors, developments, and obligatory inclusion of a pre-code title - wait, make that 76. :)
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9608
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#71

Post by xianjiro »

Torgo wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:03 pm
mjf314 wrote: May 16th, 2021, 11:33 pm I think the optimal strategy is to watch a variety of films at first, and then start watching more of the stuff that you like.
Definitely.
But then that's the funny thing about ESSENTIAL films: They're just .. essential. You need to (re)visit them sooner or later, no matter if it's the stuff you like or not. Being a serious cinephile, that is. :shifty:
:poshclap: Amen.
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9608
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#72

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:22 pm
Torgo wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:09 pm "Let's collect the essential pieces in film history .. except the most essential, you know." :blink: :whistling:
I think it could be different from stuff like the DtC and the likes, as these are mostly about popularity and personal taste again. The question "what should I explore once I've gone through the essentials" hasn't been answered too often. Call it second-tier essentials if you will (since this forum seems to love a good tier).

I just don't see a point in making another list with some Bergmans and Hitchcocks and wonder how people here think it could differ from any of the (many) similar projects that already exist?
Everyone talks about how important, essential even, DW Griffith's The Birth of a Nation was/is, but the fact remains it's also a disgusting piece of racist propaganda. Could another of Griffith's films be used to discuss the important shift in narrative structure?
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9608
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#73

Post by xianjiro »

lineuphere wrote: May 18th, 2021, 4:47 pm This will be fun.
And I enjoy beasterne's guardrail ideas: one film per director, at least 50% non-English, for sure.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
AB537
Posts: 1408
Joined: April 21st, 2018, 6:00 am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

#74

Post by AB537 »

xianjiro wrote: May 20th, 2021, 11:20 pm
Onderhond wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:22 pm
Torgo wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:09 pm "Let's collect the essential pieces in film history .. except the most essential, you know." :blink: :whistling:
I think it could be different from stuff like the DtC and the likes, as these are mostly about popularity and personal taste again. The question "what should I explore once I've gone through the essentials" hasn't been answered too often. Call it second-tier essentials if you will (since this forum seems to love a good tier).

I just don't see a point in making another list with some Bergmans and Hitchcocks and wonder how people here think it could differ from any of the (many) similar projects that already exist?
Everyone talks about how important, essential even, DW Griffith's The Birth of a Nation was/is, but the fact remains it's also a disgusting piece of racist propaganda. Could another of Griffith's films be used to discuss the important shift in narrative structure?
Haven't seen any of Griffith's work myself, but Intolerance seems to be pretty consistently rated as his best film in recent polls/rankings etc.
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9608
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#75

Post by xianjiro »

AB537 wrote: May 21st, 2021, 12:26 am
xianjiro wrote: May 20th, 2021, 11:20 pm
Onderhond wrote: May 17th, 2021, 4:22 pm
I think it could be different from stuff like the DtC and the likes, as these are mostly about popularity and personal taste again. The question "what should I explore once I've gone through the essentials" hasn't been answered too often. Call it second-tier essentials if you will (since this forum seems to love a good tier).

I just don't see a point in making another list with some Bergmans and Hitchcocks and wonder how people here think it could differ from any of the (many) similar projects that already exist?
Everyone talks about how important, essential even, DW Griffith's The Birth of a Nation was/is, but the fact remains it's also a disgusting piece of racist propaganda. Could another of Griffith's films be used to discuss the important shift in narrative structure?
Haven't seen any of Griffith's work myself, but Intolerance seems to be pretty consistently rated as his best film in recent polls/rankings etc.
Well it's what I had in the back of my mind when I was writing that. I even went back over the films I had seen be Griffith, but most didn't leave a lasting impression - for good or evil - like Intolerance. But it's clearly on a number of canon-type lists, so doesn't really make the argument I was aiming for with Onder's "beyond the obvious recommends."
mjf314
Moderator
Posts: 12001
Joined: May 8th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#76

Post by mjf314 »

xianjiro wrote: May 20th, 2021, 11:20 pm Everyone talks about how important, essential even, DW Griffith's The Birth of a Nation was/is, but the fact remains it's also a disgusting piece of racist propaganda. Could another of Griffith's films be used to discuss the important shift in narrative structure?
Intolerance is more critically acclaimed, but I think The Birth of a Nation was more influential (in terms of filmmaking techniques). But Intolerance was influential too. I guess it depends on what criteria you use for the list.
User avatar
Carmel1379
Donator
Posts: 4658
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 7:00 am
Contact:

#77

Post by Carmel1379 »

For anyone too lazy to click on my 3rd IMDb account started 2 weeks ago (it's the "Revolutions" one, just like 'The Matrix Revolutions' is the 3rd in that quadrilogy/tetralogy), here are 34+2 titles Carmel thinks are Essential Cinema (with other suggestions for names/titles/whatnot:) https://www.imdb.com/list/ls500253640/
arittake no (yume (nikki)) & I suppose I’ll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies

:imdb: IMDb Revolutions :letbxd: exwordpress blue :ICM:
AB537
Posts: 1408
Joined: April 21st, 2018, 6:00 am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

#78

Post by AB537 »

mjf314 wrote: May 21st, 2021, 5:24 am
xianjiro wrote: May 20th, 2021, 11:20 pm Everyone talks about how important, essential even, DW Griffith's The Birth of a Nation was/is, but the fact remains it's also a disgusting piece of racist propaganda. Could another of Griffith's films be used to discuss the important shift in narrative structure?
Intolerance is more critically acclaimed, but I think The Birth of a Nation was more influential (in terms of filmmaking techniques). But Intolerance was influential too. I guess it depends on what criteria you use for the list.
You're likely right about that, and the chronology would tend to favour that. As one film history/critical perspective, I recall from Mark Cousins' book The Story of Film - a precursor, I think, to his documentary series - that he spent at least as much, if not more, time discussing Intolerance than Birth of a Nation. Whether that's one critic's perspective, a commentary on influence, or merely a reflection that one film is considerably less controversial than the other while employing fairly similar techniques is maybe a bit less clear. Also worth noting that he spent some time discussing Giovanni Pastrone's Cabiria (1914), which, like Intolerance, was an expensive sprawling epic from very early in the history of feature length films.
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 3300
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#79

Post by Torgo »

Carmel1379 wrote: May 21st, 2021, 9:53 am For anyone too lazy to click on my 3rd IMDb account started 2 weeks ago (it's the "Revolutions" one, just like 'The Matrix Revolutions' is the 3rd in that quadrilogy/tetralogy), here are 34+2 titles Carmel thinks are Essential Cinema (with other suggestions for names/titles/whatnot:) https://www.imdb.com/list/ls500253640/
This reminds me that The Clock is official via two TSPDT lists. Have you seen it in its entirety?
User avatar
cinewest
Posts: 2305
Joined: February 15th, 2017, 7:00 am
Contact:

#80

Post by cinewest »

How about sticking to films that “really wowed you?,” or the 50 that have amazed you the most.

These wouldn’t necessarily be personal favorites, but those films that made the biggest impression on you, and have influenced the way you conceive of the art form.
Post Reply