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Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 22nd, 2021, 2:30 pm
by Onderhond
cinewest wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:26 pm More than 1/3 of the films remaining are crime dramas. Is that primarily what cinema should be about?
Seeing how much credit a guy like Scorsese still gets, is it really that surprising?

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 22nd, 2021, 3:21 pm
by jeff_v
I'll cut Metropolis. Nothing against it really, I just like most of the other films more and if I can draw out a veto, all the better.
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining
[/quote]

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 22nd, 2021, 3:41 pm
by Obgeoff
I'm cutting Blue Velvet. Great opening, multiple powerful scenes but I couldn't get with the jarring change of tone. Surprised to still have three more films that I rated a 7 still in the race.
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 22nd, 2021, 7:57 pm
by brokenface
cinewest wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:26 pm
brokenface wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 1:08 pm I'll cut Kane. Bored of it being number one on Tspdt. It is very good, but it's never been one i particularly see as a personal favourite. It's hard to view free of the 'best film ever made' preconceptions, for good and bad

Balthazar was cut but had been uncrossed - i take it this was a mistake?
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining
Do you honestly think Vertigo is better than Kane? In what sense might I ask?
In the sensory sense.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 2:06 am
by blocho
I'm cutting L'Atalante. I saw it a few years ago at Film Forum. I didn't see what all the fuss was about. A pleasant enough movie, and Michel Simon is always enjoyable. I've read other people write about the movie's boundless charms. For whatever reason, I wasn't feeling it.
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 2:55 am
by cinewest
brokenface wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 7:57 pm
cinewest wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:26 pm
brokenface wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 1:08 pm I'll cut Kane. Bored of it being number one on Tspdt. It is very good, but it's never been one i particularly see as a personal favourite. It's hard to view free of the 'best film ever made' preconceptions, for good and bad

Balthazar was cut but had been uncrossed - i take it this was a mistake?
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining
Do you honestly think Vertigo is better than Kane? In what sense might I ask?
In the sensory sense.
That probably sums up the difference in taste as well as anything.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 5:49 am
by prodigalgodson
brokenface wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 7:57 pm
Do you honestly think Vertigo is better than Kane? In what sense might I ask?
In the sensory sense.
Not to mention the psychological one. Kane broke more ground aesthetically, Vertigo's more impressive aesthetically imo (taking nothing away from Kane). Both fascinating pieces of storytelling, but the flow and intensity of Vertigo is unmatched by anything else I've seen, due to a once-in-a-lifetime convergence of aesthetic (or sensory) and psychological elements. The uncovering of Rosebud is a brilliant subversion of the American dream (or more fundamentally, highlighting what we lose in pursuit of worldly success or even on the general path to maturity, a recurring theme throughout Welles' work of course). But it's more convincing from an archetypical or symbolic standpoint, and even though I hate to admit it, as a portrait of a human being (which, at base level, it aspires to be) it's pretty facile and reductive. Whereas Vertigo, in addition to subverting the tropes of several genres, is an utterly compelling look at the dark side of the human soul, the horror to which our passions can lead us, the corrosive effects of trauma and obsession. Scotty's journey, and the viewer's complicity in it, hits me ten times harder than Kane's. And it's just spellbinding filmmaking, that reveals new treasures with every viewing without the old ones becoming any more tarnished. Welles is my favorite American filmmaker, and after Vertigo I'd rate a number of his films over anything else Hitchcock made, but Vertigo is something special.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 6:13 am
by Onderhond
Guess it's time to cut Apocalypse Now. I honestly don't remember that much from the film, except it being way too long, being annoyed by Brando's performance and disliking the soundtrack a lot.
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 7:44 am
by cinewest
Onderhond wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 6:13 am Guess it's time to cut Apocalypse Now. I honestly don't remember that much from the film, except it being way too long, being annoyed by Brando's performance and disliking the soundtrack a lot.
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining
And we were on the verge of something great... the longer, more ambitious films always seem to lose you. I thought you would be the one to take out the last remaining silent film... maybe next round

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 7:55 am
by cinewest
prodigalgodson wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:49 am
brokenface wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 7:57 pm
Do you honestly think Vertigo is better than Kane? In what sense might I ask?
In the sensory sense.
Not to mention the psychological one. Kane broke more ground aesthetically, Vertigo's more impressive aesthetically imo (taking nothing away from Kane). Both fascinating pieces of storytelling, but the flow and intensity of Vertigo is unmatched by anything else I've seen, due to a once-in-a-lifetime convergence of aesthetic (or sensory) and psychological elements. The uncovering of Rosebud is a brilliant subversion of the American dream (or more fundamentally, highlighting what we lose in pursuit of worldly success or even on the general path to maturity, a recurring theme throughout Welles' work of course). But it's more convincing from an archetypical or symbolic standpoint, and even though I hate to admit it, as a portrait of a human being (which, at base level, it aspires to be) it's pretty facile and reductive. Whereas Vertigo, in addition to subverting the tropes of several genres, is an utterly compelling look at the dark side of the human soul, the horror to which our passions can lead us, the corrosive effects of trauma and obsession. Scotty's journey, and the viewer's complicity in it, hits me ten times harder than Kane's. And it's just spellbinding filmmaking, that reveals new treasures with every viewing without the old ones becoming any more tarnished. Welles is my favorite American filmmaker, and after Vertigo I'd rate a number of his films over anything else Hitchcock made, but Vertigo is something special.
Based on your write-up, I’ll have to revisit Vertigo, though your comment that it stands far above his other films suggests that you may be reading a lot into it, and ignoring things about Hitchcock that hold him back in my eyes.

I do think that his strongest period was the mid 50’s to mid 60’s, and Vertigo comes roughly in the middle of that watershed, but in general I find him slipping behind where cinema was going, even then, and even in terms of English language movies where I still prefer Welles (Touch of Evil, for example), Kazan, the rising Kubrick, and perhaps even others at that time

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 8:06 am
by Onderhond
cinewest wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 7:44 am And we were on the verge of something great... the most ambitious films always seem to lose you
Being ambitious is easy, actually delivering is hard.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 8:58 am
by perceval
Still so many films I want to cut.. and almost all my favorie's are gone now... I wonder if La dolce vita is still on the list due to strategic voting. At least I thought I would not have to cut it myself, but let's do one for the team (or do people really like it that much?)

Rewatched it last week and it made me think of Talking Heads song Heaven. Paradise is such a bore.
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:01 am
by sol
OK. Gimme a few minutes; both the films that I was considering cutting have now been cut by somebody else - including one just a few minutes ago. :whistling:

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:03 am
by sol
perceval wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 8:58 am Still so many films I want to cut.. and almost all my favorie's are gone now... I wonder if La dolce vita is still on the list due to strategic voting. At least I thought I would not have to cut it myself, but let's do one for the team (or do people really like it that much?)
I was wondering that myself. I easily prefer La Strada and 8 1/2 over La Dolce Vita -- and I would also preference some other Fellinis not in the list (Night of Cabiria; Juliet of the Spirits) above it too.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:15 am
by perceval
sol wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 9:03 am
perceval wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 8:58 am Still so many films I want to cut.. and almost all my favorie's are gone now... I wonder if La dolce vita is still on the list due to strategic voting. At least I thought I would not have to cut it myself, but let's do one for the team (or do people really like it that much?)
I was wondering that myself. I easily prefer La Strada and 8 1/2 over La Dolce Vita -- and I would also preference some other Fellinis not in the list (Night of Cabiria; Juliet of the Spirits) above it too.
Agree!

Since I took your pick, please consider to cut The Godfather :whistling:

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:17 am
by sol
Okay - this is fun. We've reached the part of the list where everything left is a definite "Like" in my books (8/10 or higher).

Flicking through the titles though, there is definitely one film that -- despite how much I liked it at the time -- its glowing reputation as the best thing since sliced bread has always eluded me.

To be fair, Mulholland Dr. probably needs a rewatch, but it's as good as any film to cut this round.

On a sad note for cinewest, I was tossing up between the Lynch and the Keaton. I actually think that Keaton's short films are far superior to his features, but I always enjoy watching The General and have seen it multiple times, while I haven't felt like revisiting the Lynch. Sorry, cinewest. I've failed you.

And no, I'm not going to cut The Godfather. :P Probably another ten films need to disappear before I'd consider that.
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:21 am
by cinewest
Onderhond wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 8:06 am
cinewest wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 7:44 am And we were on the verge of something great... the most ambitious films always seem to lose you
Being ambitious is easy, actually delivering is hard.
Might It be that one’s background, expectations, and ability to discover, as well as explore a different kind of ride has a lot to do with one’s sense of whether“deliverance” has occurred or not?

Those who are “religious” tend to expect easy answers...

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:28 am
by cinewest
perceval wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 8:58 am Still so many films I want to cut.. and almost all my favorie's are gone now... I wonder if La dolce vita is still on the list due to strategic voting. At least I thought I would not have to cut it myself, but let's do one for the team (or do people really like it that much?)

Rewatched it last week and it made me think of Talking Heads song Heaven. Paradise is such a bore.
remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa young nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining
You seem to have missed the point....doesn’t anyone around here recognize Fellini’s genius?

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:31 am
by RolandKirkSunglasses
I was going to cut Vertigo to remove excess Hitchcock from the list but there's a better candidate for cutting: Viridiana. Bunuel isn't my favourite director and I generally prefer his Mexican films to his European ones, I found "Viridiana" to be average and not very subtle.

remaining films
1 Citizen Kane
2 Vertigo
7 The Godfather
11 Apocalypse Now
13 Ladri di biciclette
15 Taxi Driver
17 L'Atalante
19 Persona
22 Psycho
29 Zerkalo
30 La dolce vita
31 Touch of Evil
33 Sunset Blvd.
34 Au hasard Balthazar
35 Ordet
39 The General
41 Rear Window
42 Faa yeung nin wa
44 La grande illusion
46 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
47 The Third Man
50 Mulholland Dr.
52 Stalker
53 Fanny och Alexander
55 Chinatown
56 M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
60 Metropolis
66 Viridiana
71 Shoah
73 Det sjunde inseglet
75 La battaglia di Algeri
80 Banshun
89 Blue Velvet
91 Sanshô dayû
92 Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
99 L'année dernière à Marienbad
100 To Be or Not to Be
Selection Order
1. Coryn - 1 veto remaining
2. beasterne - 0 vetoes remaining
3. Fergenaprido - 0 vetoes remaining
4. OldAle1 - 1 veto remaining
5. brokenface - 1 veto remaining
6. jeff_v - 2 vetoes remaining
7. Obgeoff - 0 vetoes remaining
8. blocho - 2 vetoes remaining
9. Onderhond - 0 vetoes remaining
10. perceval - 0 vetoes remaining
11. sol - 2 vetoes remaining
12. RolandKirkSunglasses - 1 veto remaining
13. toromash - 1 veto remaining

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:33 am
by cinewest
By the end of this round I wonder whether any of the more original imaginative films will be left, though no doubt someone will step in to save David Lynch.

There seems to be a strong inclination towards the more conventional, here

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:38 am
by Onderhond
cinewest wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 9:21 am Might It be that one’s background, expectations, and ability to discover, as well as explore a different kind of ride has a lot to do with one’s sense of whether“deliverance” has occurred or not?

Those who are “religious” tend to expect easy answers...
Might be that I don't care much for any kind of answers, instead I might be looking for interesting questions.

Then again, "might" is just a tool for cheap insinuations. I don't care much for might.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:43 am
by RolandKirkSunglasses
cinewest wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 9:33 am By the end of this round I wonder whether any of the more original imaginative films will be left, though no doubt someone will step in to save David Lynch.

There seems to be a strong inclination towards the more conventional, here
There's at least 4 films left qualifying as original and/or imaginative, only 1 cut left before the end of the round.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 10:00 am
by cinewest
RolandKirkSunglasses wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 9:43 am
cinewest wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 9:33 am By the end of this round I wonder whether any of the more original imaginative films will be left, though no doubt someone will step in to save David Lynch.

There seems to be a strong inclination towards the more conventional, here
There's at least 4 films left qualifying as original and/or imaginative, only 1 cut left before the end of the round.
Yes. A slight exaggeration on my part based on how so many unconventional films have been attacked throughout the game, especially this round.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 10:12 am
by cinewest
Onderhond wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 9:38 am
cinewest wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 9:21 am Might It be that one’s background, expectations, and ability to discover, as well as explore a different kind of ride has a lot to do with one’s sense of whether“deliverance” has occurred or not?

Those who are “religious” tend to expect easy answers...
Might be that I don't care much for any kind of answers, instead I might be looking for interesting questions.

Then again, "might" is just a tool for cheap insinuations. I don't care much for might.
Almost every “ambitious” film you deride is full of interesting questions, as well as interesting pathways, and expressions that make an interesting use cinema.
Of course, one person’s “interesting” is another’s tedium.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 10:37 am
by Onderhond
cinewest wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 10:12 am Of course, one person’s “interesting” is another’s tedium.
Hear hear.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 10:52 am
by RolandKirkSunglasses
After this round, will it be 1 or 2 rounds before we reach the final?

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 11:08 am
by cinewest
The crime genre and 1950’s has taken a bigger lead, which suggests that the winner will appear from these categories

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 1:43 pm
by OldAle1
prodigalgodson wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:49 am
brokenface wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 7:57 pm
Do you honestly think Vertigo is better than Kane? In what sense might I ask?
In the sensory sense.
Not to mention the psychological one. Kane broke more ground aesthetically, Vertigo's more impressive aesthetically imo (taking nothing away from Kane). Both fascinating pieces of storytelling, but the flow and intensity of Vertigo is unmatched by anything else I've seen, due to a once-in-a-lifetime convergence of aesthetic (or sensory) and psychological elements. The uncovering of Rosebud is a brilliant subversion of the American dream (or more fundamentally, highlighting what we lose in pursuit of worldly success or even on the general path to maturity, a recurring theme throughout Welles' work of course). But it's more convincing from an archetypical or symbolic standpoint, and even though I hate to admit it, as a portrait of a human being (which, at base level, it aspires to be) it's pretty facile and reductive. Whereas Vertigo, in addition to subverting the tropes of several genres, is an utterly compelling look at the dark side of the human soul, the horror to which our passions can lead us, the corrosive effects of trauma and obsession. Scotty's journey, and the viewer's complicity in it, hits me ten times harder than Kane's. And it's just spellbinding filmmaking, that reveals new treasures with every viewing without the old ones becoming any more tarnished. Welles is my favorite American filmmaker, and after Vertigo I'd rate a number of his films over anything else Hitchcock made, but Vertigo is something special.
Really nicely stated and I agree just about 100%. Welles is also my favorite American filmmaker, and of Hitch's contemporaries in both age and focus, I also prefer Fritz Lang to Hitchcock overall. And I like The Magnificent Anbersons and M almost as much as Vertigo but... it's that emotional intensity that gets me every time.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 4:45 pm
by beasterne
RolandKirkSunglasses wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 10:52 am After this round, will it be 1 or 2 rounds before we reach the final?
It depends on how many vetoes are used, but my guess is that the next round will be the last cutting round. If no vetoes are played then there will be 12 films left. As long as there are 18 films or fewer after the next round of cuts and vetoes, we will reach the new ballot phase. I'll go over the rules again when we get there, but now is the time where those with vetoes left can start to be really strategic.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 5:04 pm
by beasterne
cinewest wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 4:30 amLike, “most stubborn player,” an award Sol surely would have won in the previous game with his dogged attempts to cut and recut the same films over and over. This time, he has stiff competition from beasterne, with his 3 pronged attack of Tarkovsky’s Stalker (it's actually a single prong repeatedly kicking the same dog, as if no other mutts can catch his attention).
Honored to make the shortlist :) It's the only film out of 100 I have marked as a dislike for this list so my eye keeps going back to it when it's my turn to cut. But if the film has enough fans there's not much I can do about it: 2001: A Space Odyssey was #2 in our AFI 100 Movies rankdown game despite Onderhond's best efforts there.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 6:19 pm
by Onderhond
beasterne wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:04 pm 2001: A Space Odyssey was #2 in our AFI 100 Movies rankdown game despite Onderhond's best efforts there.
It was also only #2 because of my best efforts there :D

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 23rd, 2021, 9:57 pm
by prodigalgodson
cinewest wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 7:55 am Based on your write-up, I’ll have to revisit Vertigo, though your comment that it stands far above his other films suggests that you may be reading a lot into it, and ignoring things about Hitchcock that hold him back in my eyes.

I do think that his strongest period was the mid 50’s to mid 60’s, and Vertigo comes roughly in the middle of that watershed, but in general I find him slipping behind where cinema was going, even then, and even in terms of English language movies where I still prefer Welles (Touch of Evil, for example), Kazan, the rising Kubrick, and perhaps even others at that time
Well, the extent to which it'll effect each viewer is obviously subjective, though intellectually I don't think I'm reading anything in, as those are the themes it develops very directly. But its obsessive championing by folks like Chris Marker signify its unique appeal for people with similar cinematic interests to mine, and its reputation in general signifies that it's far from an unusual response. A friend of mine saw a digital IMAX screening and said it was almost so intense he had to leave the theater. I'm good with intensity and have no compunctions about, say, smoking a whole joint in the parking lot and walking in to a screening of The Wild Bunch, but the most intense experiences I've had in a theater are the two times I saw this on 70mm in the Castro Theater. Those yearning, otherworldly, deeply evocative images, immaculately and imaginatively composed, their oneiric flow, then the heartbreaking poignancy with which the story infuses them...ravishing beyond words. Of course, something like that's too abstract to argue, but it's not something I've gotten from other Hitch films (even the other great experiences I've had seeing his work on film, eg The Birds and Rear Window). Vibe-wise it has more in common with Resnais or Antonioni than Hitchcock's work before or after, even as it's superficially rooted in the Hollywood romance/noir model, which is I think is part of why its reputation has grown in light of subsequent movements. I'm sure the theatrical setting helps with losing yourself in it -- something I haven't been able to do with, say, North by Northwest or Psycho -- but even watching it subsequently on my computer it remains the best film I've seen.

Welles and Kubrick are certainly two of the best, Kazan has yet to particularly impress me as a director.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 24th, 2021, 1:51 am
by cinewest
I love reading passionate responses to movies and other experiences (I totally resonated with Ivan’s response to Double Life of Veronique, for example, though not so much to his experience of Once Upon a Time in the West), and I love movies with intensity, especially internal tension, and I agree that Vertigo and the other two Hitchcock’s you refer to had that (ironically, I would say that is very true for Kazan, as well- a director you don’t seem to connect with), but I have some trouble with his melodramatic, old-fashioned style, and despite recognizing that he is a master craftsman, I also find certain things “corny,” and that interferes with my experience versus say something by Kazan or something like Hiroshima Mon Amor (made just a year later), or Cranes Are Flying (made a year earlier), not to mention something by Haneke.

What an experience it must have been to have seen it in 70mm at the Castro. Almost every one of my greatest film experiences have taken place on the big screen, and I feel fortunate that I was able to see so many older classics during the 80’s at Bay Area theaters like the Castro

I don’t want to give the impression that I don’t like the film, or Hitchcock, I just don’t like it or him as a filmmaker nearly as much as many others do. That said, it has been many a year since I saw it, and I will definitely give it a revisit, now, though I can’t promise my opinion will change (I watch something by Hitchcock every few years).

As brokenface said, it probably comes down to different sensibilities (and backgrounds).

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 24th, 2021, 2:39 am
by cinewest
beasterne wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:04 pm
cinewest wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 4:30 amLike, “most stubborn player,” an award Sol surely would have won in the previous game with his dogged attempts to cut and recut the same films over and over. This time, he has stiff competition from beasterne, with his 3 pronged attack of Tarkovsky’s Stalker (it's actually a single prong repeatedly kicking the same dog, as if no other mutts can catch his attention).
Honored to make the shortlist :) It's the only film out of 100 I have marked as a dislike for this list so my eye keeps going back to it when it's my turn to cut. But if the film has enough fans there's not much I can do about it: 2001: A Space Odyssey was #2 in our AFI 100 Movies rankdown game despite Onderhond's best efforts there.
I’m happy you take my award with pride and in good fun, especially since it is not easy to top Sol in this category, who has shown the ability to pursue the same cuts over and over throughout previous games.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 24th, 2021, 11:09 am
by brokenface
I've lost track, where are we at with the game? In the veto bit or is this round still in progress?

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 24th, 2021, 11:27 am
by Obgeoff
I think we are waiting on toromash and then into veto time.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 24th, 2021, 11:56 am
by toromash
Sorry for the waiting time. Busy day as they say. I'm going to cut Psycho. I like the one, who comments him as a craftsman, because that's the feeling i get of hitchcook, when i watch his films. And he is a master of that.

Psycho differs from his other output, as it's on paper a horror. This creates a minor issue, as i don't view it as a horror, but a thriller, and is even more apparent with his latter film the birds. In my view the genre itself don't hit full force before the beginning of the 70's with the exorcist and the texas chainsaw massacre. Should i blame the master for this? Hard to tell, but i have to cut one film, and you all that little discussion about Hitchcook, so why not.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 24th, 2021, 12:25 pm
by Coryn
oof, how does the last round exactly work ? So many people still have 2 vetoes left.

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 24th, 2021, 12:34 pm
by Onderhond
Coryn wrote: February 24th, 2021, 12:25 pm oof, how does the last round exactly work ? So many people still have 2 vetoes left.
Everyone votes for a cut (publicly - I think?), the one with the most votes is cut. If that film is vetoed though, next in line goes (which can also be vetoed again). It's as much strategy as it is luck at that point :)

Re: Rankdown III - TSPDT Top 100 - Round 7, #37-#25!

Posted: February 24th, 2021, 3:10 pm
by beasterne
With toromash's cut we are now on our break for anyone to use their vetoes if they wish. Here are the films that can be vetoed this round:

37. Fanny och Alexander (1982), cut by Coryn
36. Stalker (1979), cut by beasterne
35. Au Hasard Balthazar (1966), cut by Fergenaprido
34. To Be or Not to Be (1942), cut by OldAle1
33. Citizen Kane (1941), cut by brokenface
32. Metropolis (1927), cut by jeff_v
31. Blue Velvet (1986), cut by Obgeoff
30. L'Atalante (1934), cut by blocho
29. Apocalypse Now (1979), cut by Onderhond
28. La Dolce Vita (1960), cut by perceval
27. Mulholland Dr. (2001), cut by sol
26. Viridiana (1961), cut by RolandKirkSunglasses
25. Psycho (1960), cut by toromash