Welcome to the ICM Forum. If you have an account but have trouble logging in, or have other questions, see THIS THREAD.
NOTE: Board emails should be working again. Information on forum upgrade and style issues.
Podcast: Talking Images (Episode 22 released November 17th * EXCLUSIVE * We Are Mentioned in a Book!!! Interview with Mary Guillermin on Rapture, JG & More)
Polls: Directors (Waiting for results), 1929 (Results), Directorial Debut Features (Mar 12th), DtC - Nominations (Mar 20th), Favourite Movies (Mar 28th)
Challenges: UK/Ireland, Directed by Women, Waves from around the World
Film of the Week: Lean on Pete, April nominations (Apr 1st)

iCM Forum's Favourite Directorial Debut Features; Nominations

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#81

Post by joachimt »

It's quite a lot of work to go through your favorites and figure out if it's a debut or not, but Fergy's list is very helpful. Some formulas in Excel at least filters out quite a lot of movies. Still lots to go through.

Some movies I'll be voting for which are not yet in the IMDb-list:
Mujô (Akio Jissôji)
Three Ages (Buster Keaton)
Swiss Army Man (Dan Kwan, Daniel Scheinert)
No Man's Land (Danis Tanovic)
Delicatessen (Jean-Pierre Jeunet)
American Beauty (Sam Mendes)
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#82

Post by joachimt »

Jakten (Erik Løchen)
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#83

Post by joachimt »

Holubice (Frantisek Vlácil)
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#84

Post by joachimt »

ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#85

Post by joachimt »

Kuchizuke (Yasuzô Masumura)

Do you want me to keep posting titles I run into, Lonewolf?
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#86

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 8:47 pm Kuchizuke (Yasuzô Masumura)

Do you want me to keep posting titles I run into, Lonewolf?
Yes, it would be great. Thanks. But might be better to collect them in one post once you done (for today).
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#87

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 7:05 pm It seems I'll be voting for two Eisenstein movies. :blink: :lol:
Why? Are there two Eisenstein in the list?
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#88

Post by joachimt »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 5th, 2021, 8:54 pm
joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 7:05 pm It seems I'll be voting for two Eisenstein movies. :blink: :lol:
Why? Are there two Eisenstein in the list?
Oktyabr (Grigoriy Aleksandrov)
Stachka (Sergei M. Eisenstein)
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#89

Post by joachimt »

I'm collecting certainties for one post. I'm in doubt about this one.

Kamera wo tomeruna! (Shin'ichirô Ueda)

He has a movie listed in 2011, but IFFR says One Cut of the Dead is his debut feature.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#90

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 8:56 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 5th, 2021, 8:54 pm
joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 7:05 pm It seems I'll be voting for two Eisenstein movies. :blink: :lol:
Why? Are there two Eisenstein in the list?
Oktyabr (Grigoriy Aleksandrov)
Stachka (Sergei M. Eisenstein)
Yes, the first is the debut for Aleksandrov, the second for Eisenstein. There are more case with double directors, for which not all that movie is the debut. So yeah, it is possible to vote for multiple movies for some directors.
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#91

Post by joachimt »

In doubt about this one:
Szindbád (Zoltán Huszárik)
He did some TV Documentaries, no votes on IMDb. Do these count?


Pretty sure about these:
Seul contre tous (Gaspar Noé)
Pather Panchali (Satyajit Ray)
Following (Christopher Nolan)
El espíritu de la colmena (Víctor Erice)
Cube (Vincenzo Natali)
Jusqu'à la garde (Xavier Legrand)
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#92

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

No time to check into this specific case, but no votes or no checks ;) doesn’t mean a movie wasn’t released or seen by anyone, ;) so that’s not a criteria.

TV movies do definitely count.
User avatar
Gorro
Donator
Posts: 662
Joined: August 28th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#93

Post by Gorro »

joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 9:04 pm I'm collecting certainties for one post. I'm in doubt about this one.

Kamera wo tomeruna! (Shin'ichirô Ueda)

He has a movie listed in 2011, but IFFR says One Cut of the Dead is his debut feature.
I also encountered that case while building my list and judged Kamera... as his debut based on that iFFR article which I also encountered while researching.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5110
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#94

Post by Fergenaprido »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Víctor Erice - El espíritu de la colmena > He made a contribution to the anthology film Los desafíos (1969) earlier
Hiroshi Teshigahara - Otoshiana > Juuninin no shashinka is earlier and over 40 min


I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0052281 - - Il tempo si è fermato
Erice: I would ignore the anthology film and consider Beehive his debut.
Teshigahara: Agreed, looks like Juuninin was released and still exists, though it's very hard to find.

Olmi: I think it would be https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0186357/, which came out two years before Il tempo, and is readily available. It's 45 minutes long.
Torgo wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 6:04 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm Hiroshi Teshigahara - Otoshiana > Juuninin no shashinka is earlier and over 40 min
And you do find any information on this 47-minute supposed doc feature? :huh: Zero useful information for me on a quick google. I am right now doubting if it has been properly released or shown - someone may prove else for me. :whistling:
Yes, there is proof it exists and has been shown, if you know where to look.... :whistling:
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 6:16 pm On Quentin Tarantino from everything I can gather so quickly about My Best Friend's Birthday (1987),, it never was finished and never had a proper public release at the time. So I will consider Reservoir Dogs his debut. Until someone proofs otherwise.
Noted. I updated the spreadsheet to align with that.
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 6:41 pm I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Adrian Maben - Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii - Should we allow concert films and other filmed performances?

I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0032455 - - Fantasia
tt3398268 - - Omoide no Mânî
tt2277860 - - Finding Dory
Maben: I really don't know. I haven't seen Live at Pompeii, so I don't know how much of it is documentary-style, and how much of it is just a filmed version of their concert. If it's mostly the latter, I would exclude it.
Fantasia: I wouldn't include this film... it's a bunch of short segments independently directed and strung together, with no single director overseeing everything.
When Marnie Was There: This shouldn't count, the credit for James Simone is erroneous, as he just oversaw the English dubbing. The film was directed by Yonebayashi, whose debut was The Secret World of Arietty. I've submitted a correction, but imdb is stingy about changing/deleting directors.
Finding Dory: My stance is co-directors shouldn't be included, which would disqualify Finding Dory. This interview with Stanton seems to draw a clear distinction between the role of director and co-director (at least at Pixar). If they were both credited as co-directors, it would be different, but they're not.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5110
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#95

Post by Fergenaprido »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 7:27 pm
I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Laís Bodanzky - Bicho de Sete Cabeças: Cine Mambembe - O Cinema Descobre o Brasil is earlier.
Sam Mendes - American Beauty: IMDb has an earlier entry Cabaret (TV Movie), but that seems just to be a filmed version of his stage production.
Walter Ruttmann - Berlin - Die Sinfonie der Großstadt: Traumspiel (1925) is earlier, but there's is no info on it.
Ryszard Bugajski - Przesluchanie - There are earlier entries on IMDb but without much info again.
Marco Bellocchio - I pugni in tasca: Ginepro fatto uomo (1962) is earlier and over 40 min, but seems to been unreleashed at the time.
Bodanzky: I also found Cine Mambembe - can't find any information that would disqualify it for me.
Mendes: Yes, Cabaret is just a filmed stage play, so I would exclude it and count American Beauty.
Ruttmann: I suspect Dream Play is a short film, since it's animated and there were so few feature-length animated films back then that I think we would have heard more about it, even if it was lost. I'd go with Berlin as the debut.
Bugajski: Everywhere that I see that has info lists Marathon as his first film (it's a documentary, but no length is ever mentioned) and Kobieta i kobieta as his first fictional film - both predate Interrogation, so it's definitely not that. I've got Marathon listed in the spreadsheet for now.
Bellocchio: Where do you see that it's unreleased? It's been included as a bonus feature on a DVD, so it's definitely available now. Can't find info on initial release, though.
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:40 pm I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Yoshimitsu Banno - Gojira tai Hedora: There is an earlier entry on IMDb: Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970), but there is no info on it.
Nabwana I.G.G. - Who Killed Captain Alex?: Also has earlier entries on IMDb, but without info on them.
Jafar Panahi - Badkonake sefid - IMDb has an ealier entry that's over 40 min: Kish. But can't find much information on it on the web.
Forgot about these three earlier.
Banno: Agree Japanese Islands is legit, but cannot find a runtime anywhere.
I.G.G.: I disagree with Traverse here - all of his films could be considered "home movies", but they were still released, even if they're now lost. Ekisa Butwa was indeed released to the public in Uganda, and I think should be considered as his first film. The version everyone loves of Captain Alex isn't even the original release, and came 5 years after the original version.
Panahi: I can't confirm either way, even when I try searching in Farsi. Nowhere else lists a 45-minute runtime aside from imdb, and some festival call it a short.
joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 8:15 pm It's quite a lot of work to go through your favorites and figure out if it's a debut or not, but Fergy's list is very helpful. Some formulas in Excel at least filters out quite a lot of movies. Still lots to go through.

Some movies I'll be voting for which are not yet in the IMDb-list:
Mujô (Akio Jissôji)
Three Ages (Buster Keaton)
Swiss Army Man (Dan Kwan, Daniel Scheinert)
No Man's Land (Danis Tanovic)
Delicatessen (Jean-Pierre Jeunet)
American Beauty (Sam Mendes)
Some of these were already in the spreadsheet, but I've added the ones that weren't.
Jissoji: I think https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3416312/ is his debut (1969)
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5110
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#96

Post by Fergenaprido »

joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 9:04 pm I'm collecting certainties for one post. I'm in doubt about this one.

Kamera wo tomeruna! (Shin'ichirô Ueda)

He has a movie listed in 2011, but IFFR says One Cut of the Dead is his debut feature.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9385434/ looks legit as far as I can tell.

Vetted all your prior single posts. All good.
joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 9:27 pm In doubt about this one:
Szindbád (Zoltán Huszárik)
He did some TV Documentaries, no votes on IMDb. Do these count?


Pretty sure about these:
Seul contre tous (Gaspar Noé)
Pather Panchali (Satyajit Ray)
Following (Christopher Nolan)
El espíritu de la colmena (Víctor Erice)
Cube (Vincenzo Natali)
Jusqu'à la garde (Xavier Legrand)
Huszárik: I just finished up to the letter H in the spreadsheet, so I actually was just checking him out. As far as I can tell, all of the TV documentaries were only 30 minutes (the ones on imdb either have no runtime or list it as 30 minutes, which makes it a "movie" and not a "short" according to imdb. :eyeroll: ). Elsewhere, I've read that Sindbad is his debut, so that's what I'm going with.

The others I've added or were already there.

@Lonewolf, another batch is ready for you in the first tab. Almost 2150 directors listed now.

And I think I'm caught up on this thread. Off to have dinner and watch some movies!
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#97

Post by joachimt »

Fergenaprido wrote: February 6th, 2021, 12:20 am Some of these were already in the spreadsheet, but I've added the ones that weren't.
Jissoji: I think https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3416312/ is his debut (1969)
Ah, when I started my list, I removed all shorts. I forgot at that moment that 40 min was the cutoff.
I'll vote for this one instead, because it's amazing as well.
Fergenaprido wrote: February 6th, 2021, 12:52 am
joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 9:04 pm I'm collecting certainties for one post. I'm in doubt about this one.

Kamera wo tomeruna! (Shin'ichirô Ueda)

He has a movie listed in 2011, but IFFR says One Cut of the Dead is his debut feature.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9385434/ looks legit as far as I can tell.
I still wonder why a renowned institution like IFFR would list Camera as his debut.

I was working from the IMDb-list btw, not from the spreadsheet. I'll import the spreadsheet into my work then.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#98

Post by joachimt »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 6:23 am I was working from the IMDb-list btw, not from the spreadsheet. I'll import the spreadsheet into my work then.
Uh.... is this public somewhere? I don't want us to do double work.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5110
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#99

Post by Fergenaprido »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 6:48 am
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 6:23 am I was working from the IMDb-list btw, not from the spreadsheet. I'll import the spreadsheet into my work then.
Uh.... is this public somewhere? I don't want us to do double work.
Should be. I linked to it here:
Fergenaprido wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 2:08 am Aside from the imdb list Lonewolf is managing, I will have an icm list up by the end of the week to help those who make their lists there (and use the watchlist feature).

This Google Spreadsheet is the source Lonewolf and I are using for the imdb and icm lists. It's VERY MUCH a work in progress, but feel free to peruse it for additional ideas. There are also notes for instances where the "debut feature" is not clear.

Green = multiple directors have the same debut feature
Yellow = the film is the debut for one of the directors, but not for the other(s)
Orange = there is some question as to which film should be considered the debut - I've left a note in the ttid cell in every instance
Are you not able to access it? Settings should be public since there have been anonymous users accessing it and Lonewolf's commented on it.
First tab is Verified, second tab is not.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5110
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#100

Post by Fergenaprido »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 6:23 am
Fergenaprido wrote: February 6th, 2021, 12:52 am
joachimt wrote: February 5th, 2021, 9:04 pm I'm collecting certainties for one post. I'm in doubt about this one.

Kamera wo tomeruna! (Shin'ichirô Ueda)

He has a movie listed in 2011, but IFFR says One Cut of the Dead is his debut feature.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9385434/ looks legit as far as I can tell.
I still wonder why a renowned institution like IFFR would list Camera as his debut.
Well, specifically, IFFR says "His feature debut One Cut of the Dead (2017)"
and then goes on to list "Rice and Boobs (2011, short)" in his Filmography. IFFR doesn't state what they consider a feature, as far as I can tell, but I've noticed this discrepancy for other directors, and I think their feature-length cutoff is longer than the Oscars (40) or even imdb (45).

imdb lists Rice and Boobs as 1h42m, as do tmdb and Mubi, but those could be an error since all rely on user submissions.

I tried searching for the Japanese title, and that pulled up a bit more information via G Translate, and three site that all list the same runtime, and have a lot more user ratings (808 and 83, compared to 18 imdb, 3 lb, and 0 mubi), so it seems it must have had some sort of release in Japan.
https://eiga.com/movie/90099/
https://www.wowow.co.jp/detail/116760
https://filmarks.com/movies/71639

I think I'll trust the native language info instead of IFFR in this case.

I think you can rent it online here: https://pc.video.dmkt-sp.jp/ti/10023015 and it appears to 1:42:03 runtime according to the search results. I doubt there are subtitles though.

Funnily enough, I tried to watch One Cut but turned it off after 15 minutes because I couldn't get into it. Even though the plot summary of Rice and Boobs sounds ridiculously bad ("Five men who do not know each other's names are gathered in a conference room with a high daily salary of 100,000 yen. They had to continue discussing an agenda until a unanimous ruling was reached. The agenda given to them was, "If either rice and (female) boobs disappear from the world, which one will you leave?" At first, while four people chose rice, only the young man with round glasses chose boobs and began to emphasize the reason."), all this research kind of makes me want to see this 12 Angry Men update. :P
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#101

Post by joachimt »

Fergenaprido wrote: February 6th, 2021, 7:13 am
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 6:48 am
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 6:23 am I was working from the IMDb-list btw, not from the spreadsheet. I'll import the spreadsheet into my work then.
Uh.... is this public somewhere? I don't want us to do double work.
Should be. I linked to it here:
Fergenaprido wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 2:08 am Aside from the imdb list Lonewolf is managing, I will have an icm list up by the end of the week to help those who make their lists there (and use the watchlist feature).

This Google Spreadsheet is the source Lonewolf and I are using for the imdb and icm lists. It's VERY MUCH a work in progress, but feel free to peruse it for additional ideas. There are also notes for instances where the "debut feature" is not clear.

Green = multiple directors have the same debut feature
Yellow = the film is the debut for one of the directors, but not for the other(s)
Orange = there is some question as to which film should be considered the debut - I've left a note in the ttid cell in every instance
Are you not able to access it? Settings should be public since there have been anonymous users accessing it and Lonewolf's commented on it.
First tab is Verified, second tab is not.
Yes, I can access it. Thanks. I just couldn't find it. Please put it in the OP, Lonewolf.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#102

Post by joachimt »

I'll remove One Cut of the Dead.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#103

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Fergenaprido wrote: February 5th, 2021, 10:25 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm Finding Dory: My stance is co-directors shouldn't be included, which would disqualify Finding Dory. This interview with Stanton seems to draw a clear distinction between the role of director and co-director (at least at Pixar). If they were both credited as co-directors, it would be different, but they're not.
Thanks. That was an informing article. I definitely agree that for Pixar there is a clear distinction between co and director. So will remove any debuts for co-directors for Pixar from the list, like Finding Dory.

But I'm not completely sold that this use by Pixar of co-directors translates to all co-director labeling on IMDb. So I'm really curious what everyone else thinks we should do with a film being a co-directors first movie.
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#104

Post by joachimt »

Ofelas (Nils Gaup)
Los cronocrímenes (Nacho Vigalondo)
Magiki polis (Nikos Koundouros)
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#105

Post by joachimt »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 1:53 pm Ofelas (Nils Gaup)
Los cronocrímenes (Nacho Vigalondo)
Magiki polis (Nikos Koundouros)
Never mind Ofelas. You already had it. Why don't you use the exact title from IMDb? I'm not finding some info in Excel because of the differences.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#106

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

New additions, based on more research and all the feedback above. Thanks all, especially Ferge and joachimt! Also added all new additions from Ferge's spreadsheet :thumbsup:

Resnais - Hiroshima mon amour.- Because Ouvert pour cause d'inventaire never seems to wideley released.

Víctor Erice - El espíritu de la colmena. Because decided in new insight to ignore anthology films contributions.

Yoshimitsu Banno - Gojira tai Hedora : Because Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970) seems to be a short. Based on combining this from IMDb "By 1970 Toho was ready to promote him to full director, and the resulting project, Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970) played at Osaka's Expo 70," with this quote from my Criterion Godzilla box: "Enter Banno ... a short film produced for the Expo '70". Plus also this from Japanese wiki: In 1971 (Showa 46), he made his directorial debut as a scriptwriter ( co-written with Kaoru Mabuchi ) in his own project " Godzilla vs. Hedora "

Buster Keaton - Three Ages

Dan Kwan, Daniel Scheinert - Swiss Army Man

Jean-Pierre Jeunet - Delicatessen (I thought I added this already)

Danis Tanovic - No Man's Land

Erik Løchen - Jakten

Frantisek Vlácil - Holubice

Yuri Ilyenko - Krynytsya dlya sprahlykh

Yasuzô Masumura - Kuchizuke

Zoltán Huszárik - Szindbád

Satyajit Ray - Pather Panchali

Christopher Nolan - Following

Vincenzo Natali - Cube

Hiroshi Teshigahara - Juuninin no shashinka (based on: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81 ... F%E5%AE%B6), https://www.enjoytokyo.jp/movie/title/1 ... zW5B8WlkYh

Sam Mendes - American Beauty. Cause Cabaret is just a filmed stage play.

Laís Bodanzky - Bicho de Sete Cabeças: Cine Mambembe - O Cinema Descobre o Brasil

Walter Ruttmann - Berlin - Die Sinfonie der Großstadt. Cause Traumspiel indeed most probably is a short.

Nabwana I.G.G - I'm leaning toward Ferge and will consider Ekisa Butwa his debut too. (Unless someone has an informed opinion why those movies before Who Killed Captain Alex? shouldn't count).

Akio Jissôji - Yoiyami semareba (1969)

Nacho Vigalondo - Los cronocrímenes

Nikos Koundouros - Magiki polis

Xavier Legrand - Jusqu'à la garde

Unsure still, would like to hear other people informed opinions:
Nikos Nikolaidi - Evridiki BA 2037

Shin'ichirô Ueda - I tend to agree with Ferge based on all his research that Kamera wo tomeruna! isn't his debut, despite what the IFFR says (those people also aren't impeccable. Rice and Boobs seems to be. But maybe some Japanese users or one of the many Japanese movies aficionados here has more to say about it.

Ermanno Olmi - Michelino 1A B (1957) is earlier than Il tempo si è fermato. But not sure if Michelino 1A B was ever properly released or a industry documentary. ". He learned filmmaking while employed at Edisonvolta, a major Milanese electric company. There he directed more than 40 short informational films and company documentaries from 1952 to 1961" https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ermanno-Olmi

Adrian Maben - Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii - Still unsure what to do with concert films in general and/or this particular case. For now I will allow it and not going make a deal out of this one (unles someone else nominates another film by Maben).

Fantasia: Agree with Ferge that is (a kind of) anthology film, so in doubt about it. What does any one else think?

Ryszard Bugajski - "Everywhere that I see that has info lists Marathon as his first film (it's a documentary, but no length is ever mentioned) and Kobieta i kobieta as his first fictional film - both predate Interrogation, so it's definitely not that. I've got Marathon listed in the spreadsheet for now" Anyone have more info or can confirm Ferge's decision?

Marco Bellocchio -Ginepro fatto uomo seems to be his first movie over 40 mins and legit.
Fergenaprido wrote: February 6th, 2021, 12:20 am Bellocchio: Where do you see that it's unreleased? It's been included as a bonus feature on a DVD, so it's definitely available now. Can't find info on initial release, though.
I think I based that on the only release date on IMDb being a Greek Festival in 2002. I don't consider movies that are released years afterwards in hindsight on DVDs or festivals as being eligible. Am also sure on its release at the time.

Jafar Panahi: Badkonake sefid. Even Ferge with his amazing research skill can't find much about Kish. So heavenly leaning towards adding Badkonake sefid to the list. But maybe someone of the Middle East film lovers here has more information or can confirm my leaning.

Gaspar Noé - Carne (1991) is earlier and 40 minutes, according to IMDb. Does anyone know if they rounded that off down or upwards, so if it's eligible or not.... Kidding I'm not going to nitpick. :P :lol: I will draw the line at 40 minutes. And will see Seul contre tous as his debut.

Ineligible titles (unless there is new information)
James Simone/Hiromasa Yonebayashi: When Marnie Was There. - Already suspected the Simone credit was for the dubbing, that's not directing indeed! Yonebayashi debut is The Secret World of Arietty.

Nabwana I.G.G - Who Killed Captain Alex? See above
Last edited by Lonewolf2003 on February 6th, 2021, 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#107

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 11:16 am
Fergenaprido wrote: February 6th, 2021, 7:13 am
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 6:48 am
Uh.... is this public somewhere? I don't want us to do double work.
Should be. I linked to it here:
Fergenaprido wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 2:08 am Aside from the imdb list Lonewolf is managing, I will have an icm list up by the end of the week to help those who make their lists there (and use the watchlist feature).

This Google Spreadsheet is the source Lonewolf and I are using for the imdb and icm lists. It's VERY MUCH a work in progress, but feel free to peruse it for additional ideas. There are also notes for instances where the "debut feature" is not clear.

Green = multiple directors have the same debut feature
Yellow = the film is the debut for one of the directors, but not for the other(s)
Orange = there is some question as to which film should be considered the debut - I've left a note in the ttid cell in every instance
Are you not able to access it? Settings should be public since there have been anonymous users accessing it and Lonewolf's commented on it.
First tab is Verified, second tab is not.
Yes, I can access it. Thanks. I just couldn't find it. Please put it in the OP, Lonewolf.
Added it.
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#108

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 6th, 2021, 12:54 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: February 5th, 2021, 10:25 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm Finding Dory: My stance is co-directors shouldn't be included, which would disqualify Finding Dory. This interview with Stanton seems to draw a clear distinction between the role of director and co-director (at least at Pixar). If they were both credited as co-directors, it would be different, but they're not.
Thanks. That was an informing article. I definitely agree that for Pixar there is a clear distinction between co and director. So will remove any debuts for co-directors for Pixar from the list, like Finding Dory.

But I'm not completely sold that this use by Pixar of co-directors translates to all co-director labeling on IMDb. So I'm really curious what everyone else thinks we should do with a film being a co-directors first movie.
@Ferge: Are there any other cases in the list like this? Seems like you didn't add any Pixar movies yet to the verified tab, is that correct?
(No probs if you didn't get to them yet. Will look into them myself if I have time)
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#109

Post by joachimt »

For Steven Soderbergh the spreadsheet now lists "Yes: 9012 Live", which is just a concert. I wouldn't count that as a movie. I think "Sex, Lies, and Videotape" should be considered as his debut.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#110

Post by joachimt »

Fergy, your spreadsheet lists "tt0002329" as the title of the debut of Michael Curtiz.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#111

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 4:58 pm For Steven Soderbergh the spreadsheet now lists "Yes: 9012 Live", which is just a concert. I wouldn't count that as a movie. I think "Sex, Lies, and Videotape" should be considered as his debut.
Agree.
User avatar
Lonewolf2003
Donator
Posts: 10653
Joined: December 29th, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#112

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

iCM list is now also up! : https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/list ... ewolf2003/

Why is it shorter than the IMDb list? Cause I removed doubles in this before adding all titles.
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#113

Post by joachimt »

De man die zijn haar kort liet knippen (André Delvaux)

I'm considering this his debut. There's Cinéma, bonjour, but I can't find any info on runtime. All the other stuff he made before "De man..." is short, as you can see here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=H-u ... ux&f=false
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#114

Post by joachimt »

Force of Evil (Abraham Polonsky)
Guest House Paradiso (Adrian Edmondson)
For All Mankind (Al Reinert)
....mehri to ploio (Alexis Damianos)
Capturing the Friedmans (Andrew Jarecki)
Pokolenie (Andrzej Wajda)
Searching (Aneesh Chaganty)
Gibel Otrara (Ardak Amirkulov)
Kevade (Arvo Kruusement)
Eggs (Bent Hamer)
Un homme qui dort (Bernard Queysanne)
Tiexi qu (Bing Wang)
Ples v dezju (Bostjan Hladnik)
Withnail & I (Bruce Robinson)
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5110
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#115

Post by Fergenaprido »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 1:57 pm
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 1:53 pm Ofelas (Nils Gaup)
Los cronocrímenes (Nacho Vigalondo)
Magiki polis (Nikos Koundouros)
Never mind Ofelas. You already had it. Why don't you use the exact title from IMDb? I'm not finding some info in Excel because of the differences.
I grabbed everything from my spreadsheet initially, that's why. IMDB is stuck in the 20th Century and refuses to update their backend to allow for additional characters, such a š, ć, ğ, ű, etc., which feature in a lot of languages (especially in Eastern Europe). I try to use the correct original language spelling (or transliteration into the Latin alphabet) in my spreadsheet, but I also include the English language title.
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 6th, 2021, 4:23 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 6th, 2021, 12:54 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: February 5th, 2021, 10:25 pm
Thanks. That was an informing article. I definitely agree that for Pixar there is a clear distinction between co and director. So will remove any debuts for co-directors for Pixar from the list, like Finding Dory.

But I'm not completely sold that this use by Pixar of co-directors translates to all co-director labeling on IMDb. So I'm really curious what everyone else thinks we should do with a film being a co-directors first movie.
@Ferge: Are there any other cases in the list like this? Seems like you didn't add any Pixar movies yet to the verified tab, is that correct?
(No probs if you didn't get to them yet. Will look into them myself if I have time)
I can do the Pixar films in the next batch. Most were made by Lasseter, Unkrich, Stanton, and Docter. Docter's debut Monsters Inc is already there, and Chapman's Brave wasn't her debut but it was for her directing partner Andrews, so it's there too.

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 4:58 pm For Steven Soderbergh the spreadsheet now lists "Yes: 9012 Live", which is just a concert. I wouldn't count that as a movie. I think "Sex, Lies, and Videotape" should be considered as his debut.
Yes, I left a note on that one in the spreadsheet. I can't find any information about that on whether it's just a concert, or if there is more to it than that.
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 5:01 pm Fergy, your spreadsheet lists "tt0002329" as the title of the debut of Michael Curtiz.
Good catch. That was a copy/paste error. Original title Ma és holnap has been added. Thanks.
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#116

Post by joachimt »

Come Back, Little Sheba (Daniel Mann)
La jaula de oro (Diego Quemada-Díez)
322 (Dusan Hanák)
The Blair Witch Project (Eduardo Sánchez, Daniel Myrick)
Sallah Shabati (Ephraim Kishon)
Wilde mossels (Erik de Bruyn)
Agelastos petra (Filippos Koutsaftis)
Nanook of the North (Robert J. Flaherty)
Mix-Up ou Meli-melo (Françoise Romand)
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Garth Jennings)
The Adjustment Bureau (George Nolfi)
0.468055555555556 (Greg Marcks)
Den skyldige (Gustav Möller)
Medianeras (Gustavo Taretto)
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 33411
Joined: February 16th, 2012, 7:00 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#117

Post by joachimt »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 7:33 pm 0.468055555555556 (Greg Marcks)
Haha, that's 11:14, but Excel changes it.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5110
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#118

Post by Fergenaprido »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 6th, 2021, 3:55 pm Resnais - Hiroshima mon amour.- Because Ouvert pour cause d'inventaire never seems to wideley released.

Yoshimitsu Banno - Gojira tai Hedora : Because Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970) seems to be a short. Based on combining this from IMDb "By 1970 Toho was ready to promote him to full director, and the resulting project, Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970) played at Osaka's Expo 70," with this quote from my Criterion Godzilla box: "Enter Banno ... a short film produced for the Expo '70". Plus also this from Japanese wiki: In 1971 (Showa 46), he made his directorial debut as a scriptwriter ( co-written with Kaoru Mabuchi ) in his own project " Godzilla vs. Hedora "

Ermanno Olmi - Michelino 1A B (1957) is earlier than Il tempo si è fermato. But not sure if Michelino 1A B was ever properly released or a industry documentary. ". He learned filmmaking while employed at Edisonvolta, a major Milanese electric company. There he directed more than 40 short informational films and company documentaries from 1952 to 1961" https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ermanno-Olmi

Adrian Maben - Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii - Still unsure what to do with concert films in general and/or this particular case. For now I will allow it and not going make a deal out of this one (unles someone else nominates another film by Maben).

Marco Bellocchio -Ginepro fatto uomo seems to be his first movie over 40 mins and legit.
Fergenaprido wrote: February 6th, 2021, 12:20 am Bellocchio: Where do you see that it's unreleased? It's been included as a bonus feature on a DVD, so it's definitely available now. Can't find info on initial release, though.
I think I based that on the only release date on IMDb being a Greek Festival in 2002. I don't consider movies that are released years afterwards in hindsight on DVDs or festivals as being eligible. Am also sure on its release at the time.

Jafar Panahi: Badkonake sefid. Even Ferge with his amazing research skill can't find much about Kish. So heavenly leaning towards adding Badkonake sefid to the list. But maybe someone of the Middle East film lovers here has more information or can confirm my leaning.
I updated all of these in the spreadsheet so they match your list.

I don't know about Michelino, so I added a note but kept it for now. I've left Ginepro and Kish for the time being, with notes, but will change them if more info comes along.
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 2118
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#119

Post by Torgo »

joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 7:34 pm
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 7:33 pm 0.468055555555556 (Greg Marcks)
Haha, that's 11:14, but Excel changes it.
:D
r/technicallythetruth
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5110
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#120

Post by Fergenaprido »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 6th, 2021, 5:16 pm
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 4:58 pm For Steven Soderbergh the spreadsheet now lists "Yes: 9012 Live", which is just a concert. I wouldn't count that as a movie. I think "Sex, Lies, and Videotape" should be considered as his debut.
Agree.
Okay, changed.
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 6:13 pm De man die zijn haar kort liet knippen (André Delvaux)

I'm considering this his debut. There's Cinéma, bonjour, but I can't find any info on runtime. All the other stuff he made before "De man..." is short, as you can see here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=H-u ... ux&f=false
Agreed.
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 7:34 pm
joachimt wrote: February 6th, 2021, 7:33 pm 0.468055555555556 (Greg Marcks)
Haha, that's 11:14, but Excel changes it.
All good. Agreed with all of your additions in your last few posts, and updated in the spreadsheet.
Post Reply