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iCM Forum's Favourite Directorial Debut Features; Nominations

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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#41

Post by Fergenaprido »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 8:01 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 5:38 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 4:21 pm
I understand your point. Being called a co-director indeed sometimes don't mean much. But couldn't find much information so far on how much Malle was actually involved in the directing. So will consider that his debut, untill someone can give more information about this.
I feel the same. If one person is listed as "director" and the other as "co-director", I consider the co-director a junior person and ignore that credit. If both are listed as "director" or both as "co-director", then I consider them equal partners in the film. IIRC, both are credited as directed on World of Silence, so unless there's information about Malle's credits just being on paper (such as Cousteau winning director awards without Malle, etc.), I concur with Lonewolf.

Also, updated source list for all the directors mentioned here thus far. Lonewolf, how do you want me to highlight the latest editions/corrections in the spreadsheet so you can update the imdb list?
Could you highlight them in some color? With a filter I should be able to pick those out.

I also added most mentioned in this topic already. Will go through all lists posted tomorrow to add those nominated but missing, and notify people of incorrect or debatable entries.
Okay. The only change I made in the first tab was the Roy Andersson switch. I'll add the new films to the bottom of the sheet and highlighted the director nmid in green. Each batch that I add I'll sort alphabetically, so you can tell when a new batch has been made. I'll re-sort the entire list on the weekend when I create the icm list.
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#42

Post by Caracortada »

Wikipedia says "Chase Me Charlie" is "A seven-reel montage of Essanay films, edited by Langford Reed. Released in England." So it's a compilation of older short films.

Quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_C ... cial_films.

In that case I agree that "The Kid" should count as his feature debut. I will add it to my list.
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#43

Post by Fergenaprido »

Caracortada wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 8:51 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 8:39 pm
Caracortada wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 8:30 pm Eric Rohmer has one 50 minute movie before "Le Signe du Lion".
Yes but Kreutzer Sonate never seem to have had a real wide release at the time and was unfinished. So didn’t count that one.
Thanks. I will add "Le Signe du Lion" then. For Chaplin "Chase Me Charlie" (1918) is 46 minutes according to imdb. He directed it wit Langford Reed.
Re Chaplin: I saw that when I was checking him out. It's just an anthology of his previous shorts, so to me it doesn't count.
Chase Me Charlie was an anthology consisting of excerpts from several of Chaplin's short films made for the Essanay Company, including The Tramp, Shanghaied, In the Park and The Bank.
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#45

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

hurluberlu wrote: February 1st, 2021, 6:54 pm My list
1-28 ranked
Rest unranked
I have Denchû kozô no bôken as the debut for Shin'ya Tsukamotoinstead of Tetsuo. You can change it if you want. I will regard Testsou as ineligble, unless you have information why it should be considered his debut.

I did add two movies from your list to the master list, Thanks!
tt0101700 Delicatessen Marc Caro, Jean-Pierre Jeunet
tt0193253 Jin-Rô (1999) Hiroyuki Okiura
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#46

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Caracortada wrote: February 2nd, 2021, 5:31 pm This was hard work, but I now have a list of forty-six titles.

ICM Poll: Where Do I Begin?

At the moment I did NOT include:
*Charlie Chaplin - who made one 46 minute movie before "The Kid".
*Woody Allen - Who "directed" "What's Up, Tiger Lily", which is just some kind of voice-over joke to a Japanese film. Otherwise I would include "Take the Money and Run".
*Sydney Lumet - who did one TV movie before '12 Angry Men".

However I DID include
*Jazmila Zbanic - who made a 39 minute documentary before "Grbavica".
*Vincente Minnelli - who has one uncredited title before "Cabin in the Sky".
Thanks for posting your list. I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:

tt0071853 - Terry Jones, Terry Gilliam - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
tt0053472 - Jean-Luc Godard - À bout de souffle
tt0869977 - Céline Sciamma - Naissance des pieuvres
tt0049189 - Roger Vadim - Et Dieu... créa la femme
tt5287168 - Amanda Kernell - Sameblod
tt0061184 - Mike Nichols - Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
tt0088861 - Marc Didden - Brussels by Night
tt0328538 - Catherine Hardwicke - Thirteen
tt2756032 - Charlie McDowell - The One I Love
tt0077578 - Colin Higgins - Foul Play
tt2741806 - Nana Ekvtimishvili, Simon Groß - Grzeli nateli dgeebi
tt4291600 - William Oldroyd - Lady Macbeth
tt0061385 - Gene Saks - Barefoot in the Park
tt0038492 - Joseph L. Mankiewicz - Dragonwyck
tt0022251 - James Parrott - Pardon Us
tt0340855 - Patty Jenkins - Monster
tt0080756 - Adrian Lyne - Foxes
tt0467200 - Justin Chadwick - The Other Boleyn Girl
tt0042040 - Alexander Mackendrick - Whisky Galore!
tt0054599 - Pier Paolo Pasolini - Accattone
tt0210075 - Karyn Kusama - Girlfight
tt0120783 - Nancy Meyers - The Parent Trap
tt0036733 - Gunther von Fritsch, Robert Wise - The Curse of the Cat People
tt0065054 - Bob Fosse - Sweet Charity
tt0053198 - François Truffaut - Les quatre cents coups
tt0095715 - Jan Svankmajer - Neco z Alenky
tt0035160 - Luchino Visconti - Ossessione
tt0034891 - Noël Coward, David Lean - In Which We Serve
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#47

Post by Caracortada »

Thanks for all the work! There are several surprising titles. This will be an interesting poll.

There are two more cases of doubt:

*Orson Welles: I thought "Citizen Kane" was his debut, but imdb lists "Too Much Johnson" (1938). Wikipedia says it was never screened.
*Quentin Tarantino: I thought "Reservoir Dogs" was his debut, but imdb lists "My Best Friend's Birthday"(1987). Wikipedia says the original version was 70 minutes, but only 36 minutes are remaining.

There's a case to be made for including "Citizen Kane" and "Reservoir Dogs".
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#48

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Caracortada wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 4:14 pm Thanks for all the work! There are several surprising titles. This will be an interesting poll.

There are two more cases of doubt:

*Orson Welles: I thought "Citizen Kane" was his debut, but imdb lists "Too Much Johnson" (1938). Wikipedia says it was never screened.
*Quentin Tarantino: I thought "Reservoir Dogs" was his debut, but imdb lists "My Best Friend's Birthday"(1987). Wikipedia says the original version was 70 minutes, but only 36 minutes are remaining.

There's a case to be made for including "Citizen Kane" and "Reservoir Dogs".
Thanks for the feedback. I already made a ruling about Welles above. CK I see as his debut.

Will look into the QT situation later.
Last edited by Lonewolf2003 on February 3rd, 2021, 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#49

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

beavis wrote: February 1st, 2021, 3:17 pm this is so hard to do! not only knowing for sure that the debut feature is an actual debut feature but then: which to include? how to rank?

I decided to go with only the movies that I really like and was very impressed with as a debut (otherwise, where to end...?), ranked with a strong bias on how much they impressed me (how original the voice is another way to describe that maybe). I am sure I have made mistakes on features not being actual debuts. I would have liked to have ranked En Kärlekshistoria by Roy Andersson extremely high (maybe a favorite debut for me), only to find out he made a short feature a year before that one, so it's not a debut afterall... grrr. But I did not such a thorough check on every movie on my list at this point... :)

without anymore ado:
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/dire ... st/beavis/
Thanks for posting your list.

I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Andrey Tarkovsky > Your title: Ivanovo detstvo. Debut according the OP list: Katok i skripka
Jean-Claude Brisseau > Your title: La vie comme ça. Debut according the OP list: La croisée des chemins
Hirokazu Koreeda > Your title: Maboroshi no hikari. Debut according the OP list: Mou hitotsu no kyouiku - Ina shogakkou haru gumi no kiroku 
Djibril Diop Mambéty > Your title: Touki-Bouki. Debut according the OP list: Badou Boy
Oliver Hirschbiegel > Your title: Das Experiment. Debut according the OP list: Das Go! Projekt

I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Alain Resnais - Hiroshima mon amour > He made a 90 min documentary before that Ouvert pour cause d'inventaire (1946), but it is lost. Don't know if it ever publicly screened.
Nikos Nikolaidi - Evridiki BA 2037 > There is an earlier 45 min movie from him on IMDb: Anef oron (1968). But can't find much info on that.

I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0119237 - - Gummo
tt0020163 - - Menschen am Sonntag
tt0095037 - - Distant Voices, Still Lives
tt0016310 - - The Salvation Hunters
tt0107688 - - The Nightmare Before Christmas
tt0061643 - - Fando y Lis
tt0059063 - - Covek nije tica
tt0063218 - - Lebenszeichen
tt0063084 - - La hora de los hornos: Notas y testimonios sobre el neocolonialismo, la violencia y la liberación
tt0068929 - Kumar Shahani - Maya Darpan
tt0062285 - - Soleil Ô
tt0052063 - - Petla
tt0120601 - - Being John Malkovich
tt0075177 - - Sebastiane
tt1107850 - - Unrelated
tt0150662 - - Fucking Åmål
tt0248845 - - Hedwig and the Angry Inch
tt0393109 - - Brick
tt0100142 - - Metropolitan
tt0063049 - - Head
tt0059137 - - Duminica la ora 6
tt0103644 - - Alien³
tt0088258 - - This Is Spinal Tap
tt0060574 - - Der junge Törless
tt0115736 - - Bound
tt0066434 - - THX 1138
tt0113540 - - Kids
tt0109445 - - Clerks
tt0079773 - - Radio On
tt0092610 - - Bad Taste
tt0112364 - - Angela
tt0091824 - - Uma Rapariga no Verão
tt4266638 - - Krisha
tt0269587 - - Dokfa nai meuman
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#50

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Thanks for posting your list.

I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Jim Cummings > Your title: Thunder Road. Debut according the OP list: No Floodwall Here


I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Damon Packard - Reflections of Evil: Apple (1995) is earlier, according to IMDb it is 1h:8min, but according to letterbox it's only 25 min and wiki calls it a short too.
Yoshimitsu Banno - Gojira tai Hedora: There is an earlier entry on IMDb: Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970), but there is no info on it.
Nabwana I.G.G. - Who Killed Captain Alex?: Also has earlier entries on IMDb, but without info on them.
Jafar Panahi - Badkonake sefid - IMDb has an ealier entry that's over 40 min: Kish. But can't find much information on it on the web.



I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0156887 - - Pâfekuto burû
tt7562368 - - The Flying Luna Clipper
tt0161837 - - Mutilations
tt0457148 - - Suffer, Little Children
tt1196334 - - After Last Season
tt0099401 - - Demon Wind
tt0222344 - - Satan's Blade
tt5962210 - - Ingrid Goes West
tt7422822 - - Greener Grass
tt5721714 - - Fraud
tt3439314 - - Surviving Edged Weapons
tt6269810 - - Bad Ben
tt0074510 - - False Face
tt0119819 - - Office Killer
tt0065677 - - Le foto proibite di una signora per bene
tt0090750 - - Blood Hook
tt0088822 - - Blood Beat
tt1561457 - - Double Down
tt0082696 - - Madman
tt10515852 - - Steven Universe: The Movie
tt0092117 - - True Stories
tt0368226 - - The Room
tt5649108 - - Thoroughbreds
tt0415978 - - Me and You and Everyone We Know
tt0110998 - - River of Grass
tt8015444 - - Last and First Men
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#51

Post by Torgo »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:40 pm Jim Cummings > Your title: Thunder Road. Debut according the OP list: No Floodwall Here
Hm. Seems technically right, Wikipedia also agrees on that, but it's a film with not even 5 votes on IMDb on which I find literally zero information on the internet. Has it been released in any way?! This forum post by Cummings himself is among the best results I can find, lol.

The decision for Quentin Tarantino would be huge, by the way. I'm sure many users would vote for Reservoir Dogs. For My Best Friend's Birthday (1987), I, a completely biased user, would quote this: "According to Tarantino, the 29 minute long cut (which he personally edited) is just a collection of his favorite scenes. He claims to still have enough footage to put out a complete cut, and that one day he might decide to do so."
.. yes, it might have been screened on some festivals, but weren't that only 30 to 36 minutes? It's anything than a proper release for me. But I'll just see how the Forum decides on this and not fight it. :turned:
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#52

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Thanks for posting your list.

I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Andrei Tarkovsky  > Your title: Ivanovo detstvo. Debut according the OP list: Katok i skripka
Hirokazu Koreeda > Your title: Maboroshi no hikari. Debut according the OP list: Mou hitotsu no kyouiku - Ina shogakkou haru gumi no kiroku

I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Alain Resnais - Hiroshima mon amour > see my reaction above.
Víctor Erice - El espíritu de la colmena > He made a contribution to the anthology film Los desafíos (1969) earlier
Hiroshi Teshigahara - Otoshiana > Juuninin no shashinka is earlier and over 40 min


I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0069762 - - Badlands
tt0052281 - - Il tempo si è fermato
tt0156901 - - Sib
tt0024803 - - Zéro de conduite: Jeunes diables au collège
tt0042692 - - Luci del varietà
tt0039822 - - Le silence de la mer
tt0070766 - - Tadjrebeh
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#53

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

In a case of renewed insights I'm thinking of not regarding contributions to anthology films as a directorial debut feature, cause that contribution in most times can be considered a short, (if it isn't just a short worked into the anthology). How do others feel?
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#54

Post by Torgo »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm Hiroshi Teshigahara - Otoshiana > Juuninin no shashinka is earlier and over 40 min
And you do find any information on this 47-minute supposed doc feature? :huh: Zero useful information for me on a quick google. I am right now doubting if it has been properly released or shown - someone may prove else for me. :whistling:
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#55

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Torgo wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 6:04 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm Hiroshi Teshigahara - Otoshiana > Juuninin no shashinka is earlier and over 40 min
And you do find any information on this 47-minute supposed doc feature? :huh: Zero useful information for me on a quick google. I am right now doubting if it has been properly released or shown - someone may prove else for me. :whistling:
No didn't find any more info on it. That's why I'm unsure about it. Also because I'm also unsure if it was ever shown or released. Only know it's longer than 40 min, well according to IMDb it is. If I knew for sure I would have added it to the OP list.
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#56

Post by lineuphere »

This is some intense research happening. Loving it.

Just curious if folks have a way they're critically assembling their lists for this poll besides just putting favorites in order and then removing all the non-debuts. What are the ways (if possible) that our results will noticeably vary from the ICM top 1,001 list with simply the non-debuts removed?

I enjoyed reading Beavis' criteria as a way of determining their titles for the poll. Would love to hear some others.
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#57

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

On Quentin Tarantino from everything I can gather so quickly about My Best Friend's Birthday (1987),, it never was finished and never had a proper public release at the time. So I will consider Reservoir Dogs his debut. Until someone proofs otherwise.
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#58

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Thanks for posting your list.
I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Randal Kleiser > Your title: Grease. Debut according the OP list: All Together Now

I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Adrian Maben - Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii - Should we allow concert films and other filmed performances?

I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0100519 - - Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead
tt6241872 - - Ruben Brandt, a gyujto
tt0081283 - - Ordinary People
tt0048356 - - Marty
tt4576612 - - Comment c'est loin
tt1179933 - - 10 Cloverfield Lane
tt4302938 - - Kubo and the Two Strings
tt7472352 - - Shirkers
tt0098213 - - Roger & Me
tt5584796 - - Tehran Taboo
tt2262345 - - Tout en haut du monde
tt0379786 - - Serenity
tt0074605 - - Harlan County U.S.A.
tt3204144 - - Les combattants
tt7476236 - - Minding the Gap
tt0078480 - - Watership Down
tt0064276 - - Easy Rider
tt0069332 - - Super Fly
tt3011816 - - Adama
tt3814316 - - Le nouveau
tt0055614 - - West Side Story
tt0032455 - - Fantasia
tt5501158 - - Ni juge, ni soumise
tt2406566 - - Atomic Blonde
tt3398268 - - Omoide no Mânî
tt4633694 - - Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse
tt4449576 - - Demain
tt0089530 - - Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome
tt2277860 - - Finding Dory
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#59

Post by hurluberlu »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 3:00 pm
hurluberlu wrote: February 1st, 2021, 6:54 pm My list
1-28 ranked
Rest unranked
I have Denchû kozô no bôken as the debut for Shin'ya Tsukamotoinstead of Tetsuo. You can change it if you want. I will regard Testsou as ineligble, unless you have information why it should be considered his debut.

I did add two movies from your list to the master list, Thanks!
tt0101700 Delicatessen Marc Caro, Jean-Pierre Jeunet
tt0193253 Jin-Rô (1999) Hiroyuki Okiura
I am taking a lazzy approach for this so I have stolen the above from Onderhond: thanks to him ! :whistling:
You seem to be right for Tetsup, I will remove it.

I will update my list closer to the deadline.
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#60

Post by RolandKirkSunglasses »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm Thanks for posting your list.

I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Andrei Tarkovsky  > Your title: Ivanovo detstvo. Debut according the OP list: Katok i skripka
Hirokazu Koreeda > Your title: Maboroshi no hikari. Debut according the OP list: Mou hitotsu no kyouiku - Ina shogakkou haru gumi no kiroku

I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Alain Resnais - Hiroshima mon amour > see my reaction above.
Víctor Erice - El espíritu de la colmena > He made a contribution to the anthology film Los desafíos (1969) earlier
Hiroshi Teshigahara - Otoshiana > Juuninin no shashinka is earlier and over 40 min


I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0069762 - - Badlands
tt0052281 - - Il tempo si è fermato
tt0156901 - - Sib
tt0024803 - - Zéro de conduite: Jeunes diables au collège
tt0042692 - - Luci del varietà
tt0039822 - - Le silence de la mer
tt0070766 - - Tadjrebeh
I wasn't 100% sure if all the films on my list qualified as directorial debuts so I thought I'd add them to the list and see what sticks.


For anthology films it depends how long the piece is: less than 40 minutes you can call it a short.

My heart wants Hiroshima and Otoshiana to count, but my head says "lost film debut is still a debut".
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#61

Post by Torgo »

RolandKirkSunglasses wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 6:50 pm For anthology films it depends how long the piece is: less than 40 minutes you can call it a short.
Sounds fair. :thumbsup:
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#62

Post by gromit82 »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 6:41 pm
I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Adrian Maben - Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii - Should we allow concert films and other filmed performances?
I'm inclined to think we should. Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii seems to have received a proper theatrical release before Maben made any other feature-length films.
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#63

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Gorro wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 1:41 pm https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/gorr ... res/gorro/ Ranked
Thanks for posting your list.

I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Jae-young Kwak > Your title: Yeopgijeogin geunyeo. Debut according the OP list: Bi-oneun nal-ui suchaehwa
Andrei Tarkovsky > Your title: Ivanovo detstvo. Debut according the OP list: Katok i skripka
Frank Pavich > Your title: Jodorowsky's Dune. Debut according the OP list: N.Y.H.C.
Mariano Llinás > Your title: Historias extraordinarias. Debut according the OP list: Balnearios


I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
The Resnais again.
Laís Bodanzky - Bicho de Sete Cabeças: Cine Mambembe - O Cinema Descobre o Brasil is earlier.
Sam Mendes - American Beauty: IMDb has an earlier entry Cabaret (TV Movie), but that seems just to be a filmed version of his stage production.
Víctor Erice - El espíritu de la colmena > He made a contribution to the anthology film Los desafíos (1969) earlier
Walter Ruttmann - Berlin - Die Sinfonie der Großstadt: Traumspiel (1925) is earlier, but there's is no info on it.
Ryszard Bugajski - Przesluchanie - There are earlier entries on IMDb but without much info again.
Marco Bellocchio - I pugni in tasca: Ginepro fatto uomo (1962) is earlier and over 40 min, but seems to been unreleashed at the time.


I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt2534660 - - Risttuules
tt0986233 - - Hunger
tt0085809 - - Koyaanisqatsi
tt0091759 - - Pisma myortvogo cheloveka
tt0162023 - - Tuvalu
tt1022603 - - (500) Days of Summer
tt0082280 - - Doro no kawa
tt0090579 - - Abel
tt0119177 - - Gattaca
tt0015532 - - Die Abenteuer des Prinzen Achmed
tt0022080 - - Limite
tt0405094 - - Das Leben der Anderen
tt0203119 - - Sexy Beast
tt2210769 - - Liza, a rókatündér
tt0064703 - - Al-mummia
tt0120735 - - Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
tt0115561 - - L'appartement
tt0340377 - - The Station Agent
tt0449059 - - Little Miss Sunshine
tt0171804 - - Boys Don't Cry
tt0430651 - - Survive Style 5+
tt0064068 - - Bara no sôretsu
tt0058652 - - Sanbiki no samurai
tt1821593 - - Rundskop
tt0038190 - - A Tree Grows in Brooklyn
tt5688932 - - Sorry to Bother You
tt0048424 - - The Night of the Hunter
tt0808417 - - Persepolis
tt0978762 - - Mary and Max
tt2179116 - - The Kings of Summer
tt0465538 - - Michael Clayton
tt0067277 - - Johnny Got His Gun
tt0093223 - - House of Games
tt0331175 - - Any Way the Wind Blows
Last edited by Lonewolf2003 on February 3rd, 2021, 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#64

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

RolandKirkSunglasses wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 6:50 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm Thanks for posting your list.

I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Andrei Tarkovsky  > Your title: Ivanovo detstvo. Debut according the OP list: Katok i skripka
Hirokazu Koreeda > Your title: Maboroshi no hikari. Debut according the OP list: Mou hitotsu no kyouiku - Ina shogakkou haru gumi no kiroku

I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Alain Resnais - Hiroshima mon amour > see my reaction above.
Víctor Erice - El espíritu de la colmena > He made a contribution to the anthology film Los desafíos (1969) earlier
Hiroshi Teshigahara - Otoshiana > Juuninin no shashinka is earlier and over 40 min


I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0069762 - - Badlands
tt0052281 - - Il tempo si è fermato
tt0156901 - - Sib
tt0024803 - - Zéro de conduite: Jeunes diables au collège
tt0042692 - - Luci del varietà
tt0039822 - - Le silence de la mer
tt0070766 - - Tadjrebeh
I wasn't 100% sure if all the films on my list qualified as directorial debuts so I thought I'd add them to the list and see what sticks.


For anthology films it depends how long the piece is: less than 40 minutes you can call it a short.

My heart wants Hiroshima and Otoshiana to count, but my head says "lost film debut is still a debut".
It's no problem, that's why I'm going through list. And to improve the master list for everyone in the OP, so that at the end we all agree on which ones are eligible or not.

A lost film debut is indeed still a debut, but the question is if these films ever were released publicly before they were lost. So would love to hear if anyone knows more about them.

For anthology films, like Torgo says that's fair. But I'm not also going to check for every anthology segment how long it is and if it's under 40 min. So I will trust everyone on this.
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#65

Post by TraverseTown »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:40 pm
Thanks for posting your list.

I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Jim Cummings > Your title: Thunder Road. Debut according the OP list: No Floodwall Here


I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Damon Packard - Reflections of Evil: Apple (1995) is earlier, according to IMDb it is 1h:8min, but according to letterbox it's only 25 min and wiki calls it a short too.
Yoshimitsu Banno - Gojira tai Hedora: There is an earlier entry on IMDb: Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970), but there is no info on it.
Nabwana I.G.G. - Who Killed Captain Alex?: Also has earlier entries on IMDb, but without info on them.
Jafar Panahi - Badkonake sefid - IMDb has an ealier entry that's over 40 min: Kish. But can't find much information on it on the web.



Let's see. I wasn't considering No Floodwall Here because it has no votes on IMDB and no checks/views on iCM or Letterboxd, but apparently it was visible on Vimeo at one point so I won't fight that one if you wanna consider that the debut.

Damon Packard I'm gonna stick with because I'm 99% sure that the 68 min cut of Apple never existed is a myth.

Banno I will concede, seems like a real film with real collaborators despite not being seen.

I will keep the Nabwana IGG film because those earlier films have never had any kind of real release, effectively just home movies and most are considered lost.

Panahi - Looks like he has a 45min doc that isn't widely seen at all, but I'll concede that one if you want.

In summary, I'll remove the Cummings, Banno, and Panahi films, and keep the Packard and IGG films.
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#66

Post by hurluberlu »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 7:33 pm
RolandKirkSunglasses wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 6:50 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:59 pm Thanks for posting your list.

I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Andrei Tarkovsky  > Your title: Ivanovo detstvo. Debut according the OP list: Katok i skripka
Hirokazu Koreeda > Your title: Maboroshi no hikari. Debut according the OP list: Mou hitotsu no kyouiku - Ina shogakkou haru gumi no kiroku

I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Alain Resnais - Hiroshima mon amour > see my reaction above.
Víctor Erice - El espíritu de la colmena > He made a contribution to the anthology film Los desafíos (1969) earlier
Hiroshi Teshigahara - Otoshiana > Juuninin no shashinka is earlier and over 40 min


I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt0069762 - - Badlands
tt0052281 - - Il tempo si è fermato
tt0156901 - - Sib
tt0024803 - - Zéro de conduite: Jeunes diables au collège
tt0042692 - - Luci del varietà
tt0039822 - - Le silence de la mer
tt0070766 - - Tadjrebeh
I wasn't 100% sure if all the films on my list qualified as directorial debuts so I thought I'd add them to the list and see what sticks.


For anthology films it depends how long the piece is: less than 40 minutes you can call it a short.

My heart wants Hiroshima and Otoshiana to count, but my head says "lost film debut is still a debut".
It's no problem, that's why I'm going through list. And to improve the master list for everyone in the OP, so that at the end we all agree on which ones are eligible or not.

A lost film debut is indeed still a debut, but the question is if these films ever were released publicly before they were lost. So would love to hear if anyone knows more about them.

For anthology films, like Torgo says that's fair. But I'm not also going to check for every anthology segment how long it is and if it's under 40 min. So I will trust everyone on this.
None of what Resnais shot before 1948 (until Van Gogh) was released commercially so Hiroshima qualifies in my opinion.
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#67

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Thanks for the feedback Traverse and hurluberlu. I will add Reflections of Evil and Who Killed Captain Alex? to the list.

For Cummings I will consider No Floodwall Here his debut, but will look into more into how and when it was released, cause if it was only released on vimeo I'm not sure I consider that enough. Cause than every first movie over 40 min uploaded to youtube or alike by anyone can be seen as a directorial debut. It must have it some sort of commercial release to qualify imho. (With commercial defined very broadly so it also involves experimental movies released in musea or alike)

For the others I will not consider them ineligible for now, but will also not add them to the masterlist until I've done some more research or have more information. So @TT you can keep the Banno and Panahi in your list, until there is a definitive ruling on those
Last edited by Lonewolf2003 on February 3rd, 2021, 11:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#68

Post by Fergenaprido »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 3:27 pm Thanks for posting your list. I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:

tt0071853 - Terry Jones, Terry Gilliam - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
tt0053472 - Jean-Luc Godard - À bout de souffle
tt0869977 - Céline Sciamma - Naissance des pieuvres
tt0049189 - Roger Vadim - Et Dieu... créa la femme
tt5287168 - Amanda Kernell - Sameblod
tt0061184 - Mike Nichols - Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
tt0088861 - Marc Didden - Brussels by Night
tt0328538 - Catherine Hardwicke - Thirteen
tt2756032 - Charlie McDowell - The One I Love
tt0077578 - Colin Higgins - Foul Play
tt2741806 - Nana Ekvtimishvili, Simon Groß - Grzeli nateli dgeebi
tt4291600 - William Oldroyd - Lady Macbeth
tt0061385 - Gene Saks - Barefoot in the Park
tt0038492 - Joseph L. Mankiewicz - Dragonwyck
tt0022251 - James Parrott - Pardon Us
tt0340855 - Patty Jenkins - Monster
tt0080756 - Adrian Lyne - Foxes
tt0467200 - Justin Chadwick - The Other Boleyn Girl
tt0042040 - Alexander Mackendrick - Whisky Galore!
tt0054599 - Pier Paolo Pasolini - Accattone
tt0210075 - Karyn Kusama - Girlfight
tt0120783 - Nancy Meyers - The Parent Trap
tt0036733 - Gunther von Fritsch, Robert Wise - The Curse of the Cat People
tt0065054 - Bob Fosse - Sweet Charity
tt0053198 - François Truffaut - Les quatre cents coups
tt0095715 - Jan Svankmajer - Neco z Alenky
tt0035160 - Luchino Visconti - Ossessione
tt0034891 - Noël Coward, David Lean - In Which We Serve
I'm caught up to here. Most of the films were already in my list in one of the tabs, and I've added the ones that weren't. I've moved another batch over to the verified list (except for von Fritsch, I added him right below Wise since I somehow missed him), and I've finished up until the letter F. I'll work on G and the other posts in this thread a bit later.

And I'm fine with excluding anthology films from the debut list... I don't recall how many there were in the list, but I'm sure I would have marked them in orange anyway, like Kuldesak.
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#69

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Oh and @Onderhond, I didn't forget your list. Will check yours later, but like always you have so many unique entries I would take me some more time to check them all ;)
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#70

Post by Onderhond »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 11:19 pm Oh and @Onderhond, I didn't forget your list. Will check yours later, but like always you have so many unique entries I would take me some more time to check them all ;)
You don't say. It was quite a bit of work :D
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#71

Post by Fergenaprido »

Onderhond wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 11:25 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 11:19 pm Oh and @Onderhond, I didn't forget your list. Will check yours later, but like always you have so many unique entries I would take me some more time to check them all ;)
You don't say. It was quite a bit of work :D
After I finished my main list, I was going to use your site to check on directors I didn't already have, since it was highly likely you have a bunch that I would have missed otherwise. :)
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#72

Post by Fergenaprido »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 4:51 pm I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Andrey Tarkovsky > Your title: Ivanovo detstvo. Debut according the OP list: Katok i skripka
Hirokazu Koreeda > Your title: Maboroshi no hikari. Debut according the OP list: Mou hitotsu no kyouiku - Ina shogakkou haru gumi no kiroku 

I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Alain Resnais - Hiroshima mon amour > He made a 90 min documentary before that Ouvert pour cause d'inventaire (1946), but it is lost. Don't know if it ever publicly screened.
Nikos Nikolaidi - Evridiki BA 2037 > There is an earlier 45 min movie from him on IMDb: Anef oron (1968). But can't find much info on that.

I added these titles from your list to the master list to the OP:
tt1107850 - - Unrelated
Tarkovsky: I put Ivan's Childhood instead of Steamroller in the spreadsheet on the basis that it was a student film, based on the discussion earlier. I can switch it if that's your decision; I agree it qualifies based on runtime, but wasn't clear on the student film/commercially available aspect.
Koreeda: I think Lessons of a Calf was his first documentary, according to both imdb and wikipedia, and from this article: http://www.yidff.jp/docbox/13/box13-1-e.html (it's from the same year as the one you have, though neither lists an exact release date)
Resnais: From French Wikipedia: "Ouvert pour cause d'inventaire est un film français d'Alain Resnais, réalisé en 1946, son premier long métrage, qui semble perdu." (It was his first feature-length film, now believed to be lost) - There's nothing confirming it was released, but I don't see anything indicating that it wasn't released, either. Perhaps someone with better French can weigh in on this section - It quotes Resnais as saying the film was made to be screened to a dozen people, but doesn't clarify if it actually was. Maybe someone has access to the source interview (Suzanne Liandrat-Guigues et Jean-Louis Leutrat, Alain Resnais : Liaisons secrètes, accords vagabonds, Cahiers du cinéma, 2006, p. 185-186.)?
Nikoalidis: Maybe kingink can find more info online in Greek? Anef oron seems legit to me thus far.

Hogg: I left a note about Unrelated - there was a TV movie beforehand I can't find information about.

Everything else I didn't include in the quote from that post I agree with :)

And I've now finished up to the end of the letter G. Spreadsheet is now over 1800 directors "confirmed".
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#73

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

About Tarkovsky: Funny, I interpreted that discussion the other way, and thought we decided on Steamroller being eligible, cause it was made with help from Mosfilm so clearly made to be distribute publicly. But I'm open and if people think Ivan should be his debut, I will concede.

Resnais; If it was only meant to be shown to 12 people, than that doesn't quality as being publicly released so wouldn't fit the definition. Would love to hear if anyone has any more information about it.

Koreeda: Agree. (Mou hitotsu no kyouiku - Ina shogakkou haru gumi no kiroku = Lessons from a Calf)
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#74

Post by Fergenaprido »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:40 pm I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Jim Cummings > Your title: Thunder Road. Debut according the OP list: No Floodwall Here


I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Damon Packard - Reflections of Evil: Apple (1995) is earlier, according to IMDb it is 1h:8min, but according to letterbox it's only 25 min and wiki calls it a short too.
Yoshimitsu Banno - Gojira tai Hedora: There is an earlier entry on IMDb: Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970), but there is no info on it.
Nabwana I.G.G. - Who Killed Captain Alex?: Also has earlier entries on IMDb, but without info on them.
Jafar Panahi - Badkonake sefid - IMDb has an ealier entry that's over 40 min: Kish. But can't find much information on it on the web.
Cummings: Confirmed about the first feature. The director even posted about on a film forum 10 years ago! Sadly, the vimeo link there doesn't work anymore.
Packard: Based on this interview, it sounds like Apple wasn't finished by the time Reflections of Evil had been released, and perhaps it's still not finished. The letterboxd entry says 25 minutes and the year 1992 (data from tmdb), while imdb says 68 minutes and 1995. Sounds like the short people have seen is a work in progress, but either way, the director himself confirms that Apple wasn't finished before Reflections, so I think RoE should be the debut.

Everything else checks out.

Also, saw your comment on the spreadsheet. :thumbsup:
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:07 am About Tarkovsky: Funny, I interpreted that discussion the other way, and thought we decided on Steamroller being eligible, cause it was made with help from Mosfilm so clearly made to be distribute publicly. But I'm open and if people think Ivan should be his debut, I will concede.
Re: Tarkovsky, to me, you're the final decision maker, so if you say it's Steamroller and no one else disagrees, that's fine with me, and I'll change my spreadsheet accordingly.
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#75

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Fergenaprido wrote: February 4th, 2021, 11:55 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 5:40 pm I found the following differences between your list and the OP-list. I will consider these ineligible, unless you have a good argument why they should be considered a debut feature. You can of course change or delete these titles from your list if you want.
Jim Cummings > Your title: Thunder Road. Debut according the OP list: No Floodwall Here


I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
Damon Packard - Reflections of Evil: Apple (1995) is earlier, according to IMDb it is 1h:8min, but according to letterbox it's only 25 min and wiki calls it a short too.
Yoshimitsu Banno - Gojira tai Hedora: There is an earlier entry on IMDb: Birth of the Japanese Islands (1970), but there is no info on it.
Nabwana I.G.G. - Who Killed Captain Alex?: Also has earlier entries on IMDb, but without info on them.
Jafar Panahi - Badkonake sefid - IMDb has an ealier entry that's over 40 min: Kish. But can't find much information on it on the web.
Cummings: Confirmed about the first feature. The director even posted about on a film forum 10 years ago! Sadly, the vimeo link there doesn't work anymore.
Packard: Based on this interview, it sounds like Apple wasn't finished by the time Reflections of Evil had been released, and perhaps it's still not finished. The letterboxd entry says 25 minutes and the year 1992 (data from tmdb), while imdb says 68 minutes and 1995. Sounds like the short people have seen is a work in progress, but either way, the director himself confirms that Apple wasn't finished before Reflections, so I think RoE should be the debut.

Everything else checks out.

Also, saw your comment on the spreadsheet. :thumbsup:
Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:07 am About Tarkovsky: Funny, I interpreted that discussion the other way, and thought we decided on Steamroller being eligible, cause it was made with help from Mosfilm so clearly made to be distribute publicly. But I'm open and if people think Ivan should be his debut, I will concede.
Re: Tarkovsky, to me, you're the final decision maker, so if you say it's Steamroller and no one else disagrees, that's fine with me, and I'll change my spreadsheet accordingly.
Thanks for all your great research again!

I want to be clear to everyone, that I'm organizing this poll so in that role I will confirm the final decisions. But I'm not a walking film encyclopedia (and neither is Ferge as far as I know) and neither the end-all Poll Tsar. I will make an informed decision about every (in)eligible title as well as I can. (and in many cases I will just follow Ferge's decision from his spreadsheet) But this is a group effort and process, so if there's consensus about a debut I will confirm and accept that (no matter of my personal opinion on it).

I really want to settle all debates before the nominations close. I even am open to let them be open longer if necessary. What I absolutely want to avoid is having discussions about the definition or a movie (not) being a debut feature in the Results thread. Cause than it's too late!
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#76

Post by Gorro »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 7:27 pm
Gorro wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 1:41 pm https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/gorr ... res/gorro/ Ranked
I'm not completely sure what to do with the following titles. Would love to hear your or other people's opinions:
The Resnais again.
Laís Bodanzky - Bicho de Sete Cabeças: Cine Mambembe - O Cinema Descobre o Brasil is earlier.
Sam Mendes - American Beauty: IMDb has an earlier entry Cabaret (TV Movie), but that seems just to be a filmed version of his stage production.
Víctor Erice - El espíritu de la colmena > He made a contribution to the anthology film Los desafíos (1969) earlier
Walter Ruttmann - Berlin - Die Sinfonie der Großstadt: Traumspiel (1925) is earlier, but there's is no info on it.
Ryszard Bugajski - Przesluchanie - There are earlier entries on IMDb but without much info again.
Marco Bellocchio - I pugni in tasca: Ginepro fatto uomo (1962) is earlier and over 40 min, but seems to been unreleashed at the time.
Thanks for checking. My list wasn't finished at the time of posting, but it is now. Anything over #91 is new and so is Tron: Legacy.

I removed the first ones. Concerning the others:

Bodansky: I missed that one. Removed.
Mendes: I don't consider that a movie.
Erice: Anthology films I consider shorts.
Ruttman: That might as well be a short, especially since it is listed as animation I think that is very likely.
Bugajski: I missed those. Removed.
Bellocchio: That looks like his graduation project. According the Italian wikipedia page he attended an Italian Cinematography school until 1962. I don't consider that his debut.
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#77

Post by Teproc »

Fergenaprido wrote: February 4th, 2021, 4:26 am
Resnais: From French Wikipedia: "Ouvert pour cause d'inventaire est un film français d'Alain Resnais, réalisé en 1946, son premier long métrage, qui semble perdu." (It was his first feature-length film, now believed to be lost) - There's nothing confirming it was released, but I don't see anything indicating that it wasn't released, either. Perhaps someone with better French can weigh in on this section - It quotes Resnais as saying the film was made to be screened to a dozen people, but doesn't clarify if it actually was. Maybe someone has access to the source interview (Suzanne Liandrat-Guigues et Jean-Louis Leutrat, Alain Resnais : Liaisons secrètes, accords vagabonds, Cahiers du cinéma, 2006, p. 185-186.)?
You're correct, Resnais just says it was intended to be screened for 12 people, not if he actually did it, as far as what's on Wikipedia goes anyway.
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#79

Post by joachimt »

It seems I'll be voting for two Eisenstein movies. :blink: :lol:
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#80

Post by Jimi Antiloop »

How to find out if Richard Kelly's "Visceral Matter" was publicly released?

I would consider "Donnie Darko" as his debut. Also throught this source...
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/richard-k ... es-cameron
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