Welcome to the ICM Forum. If you have an account but have trouble logging in, or have other questions, see THIS THREAD.
NOTE: Board emails should be working again. Information on forum upgrade and style issues.
Podcast: Talking Images (Episode 22 released November 17th * EXCLUSIVE * We Are Mentioned in a Book!!! Interview with Mary Guillermin on Rapture, JG & More)
Polls: Coming of Age (Results), DtC - Ratings (Results), 1933 (May 12th), 1970s (May 29th)
Challenges: Japan, Mystery/Thriller, Western
Film of the Week: La donna del lago, June nominations (May 28th)

They Throw Pies, Don't They? (An Official List Project)

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5482
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#41

Post by Fergenaprido »

Hey kongs.

1) :thumbsup: No apology necessary; keep up the enthusiasm :)

2) I won't get into the details of my opinion since I don't think it's necessary at this time, and I'm also not actively advocating for TSZDT to be unadopted.

3) There are some free options out there - even just a bunch of google spreadsheets that are publicly accessible is better than nothing.

4)
It's difficult to take the implication of "heavy personal bias" as a good-faith argument. I won't lie, I don't much care for that. Rest assured, I was always planning to make 100% of my data publicly accessible to everyone. There is no bias whatsoever.
I'm not familiar with good-faith arguments, and not sure what implication you have in mind here. My main point was that if the information wasn't public, then people are left to draw their own conclusions, which is where the perception of a personal bias could come in. It wasn't clear to me that you were going to make the data and methodology public, so that's one less concern I have now.

5)
However, if you think my goal here is to get my name on something, for the clout or whatever, you know neither me nor the aim of my project.
No, I never thought your goal was getting your name on something.
The entire reasoning behind building a better comedy resource is because the King list does not accurately represent the genre.
In your opinion. I haven't read the King book, so I don't know if the list of films is simply those mentioned anywhere, only in the index/checklist, or otherwise - but you also haven't read the book, and without the context of why those films are included (and why others are excluded), I don't think one can state whether or not the list accurately represents the genre. This reminds me of when the Fantasy list was adopted, and people questions why Basic Instinct was included. Turns out it was because the writer (or whoever) felt that the film represented a male fantasy about women (or something to that extent - this is the time when I wish we had an easy Lammetje button that could find a specific post in any thread without having to spend half an hour searching the forum for it tehe ). Out of context, it seems like a very strange film to include in a fantasy genre book, but given the context, I actually think it makes sense.

Also, if the list is just every film mentioned in the book, but the book actually has specific chapters for each film, or a comprehensive list somewhere, then perhaps the King list simply needs to be edited to accurately reflect the book - we've done this for other lists in the past (and we're currently looking into fixing the Vogel list), so if someone gets a copy of the book (just checked, it's not at my library), we can do some cross-reference (unless that info is already on the forum somewhere... the list was adopted a long time ago, perhaps before the forum existed).
I think I made my intentions pretty clear in this excerpt from my post, which you have actively ignored: "Much like horror, comedy is frowned upon by film snobs despite being a genre with some our most timeless and beloved classics. This list is meant to function as a definitive, diverse ranking of the top 1000 comedies of all time, encompassing everything from Chaplin to Broken Lizard to foreign obscurities."
No, I didn't ignore that part of your post. The fact that you want this list to be "definitive" was the reason I brought up concerns about your methodology.

I think we're on the same page? But again, to be clear, I have no issue with this project at all. The only reason I mentioned my objection in the first place was because I didn't want you to do all of this work thinking that it would be adopted as official and then be devastated if it possibly didn't get adopted. I feel it would be very dastardly of me to stay silent during this whole time and then only speak my disagreement about it's officialness at the very end. Plus, I'm only speaking for myself, not on behalf of any of the other site moderators who are involved in adoption discussions.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5482
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#42

Post by Fergenaprido »

Thanks for replying Mighty :)

TSPDT-inspired lists are great in and of themselves. Perhaps we should have a separate thread/subforum just for those lists, including a post or posts outlining the methodology and technical information, so that anyone who wants to start their own list can easily refer to it? Not that every list has to follow the same formula, but it might makes things easier and less daunting for those starting out.

Personally, I keep two mini tspdt-style lists in my spreadsheet - one for Canadian films and one for queer films - but I don't have the intention to expand them to all-encompassing mega lists at this time, and they're mostly for personal use based on what I consider to be useful Canadian and Queer film lists (I only have 20-30 lists for each one). I've changed my formula twice already and I'm still not happy with it. :D
User avatar
mightysparks
Site Admin
Posts: 31428
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#43

Post by mightysparks »

Oh I'd love a They Shoot Rainbows list :( Not sure it would be a top 1000 though :D
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

iCM | IMDb | LastFM | TSZDT

Image
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1478
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#44

Post by kongs_speech »

mightysparks wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 12:24 am I'm supportive of this project (and any other They Shoot... lists people want to make), I think it's super fun. I don't think you should be discouraged about whether it becomes official or not, just make it the best list you can possibly make it so it's a useful resource for yourself and everyone else. I'm really excited to see how it turns out. Kong mentioned to me that they were going to having a public Google sheet which I think would have a space for sources and methodology in lieu of a website. And keep talking it about here, asking questions, promoting it, showing it off, polishing it.

From what I can remember, I think people are mostly accurate with the history of TSZDT. I don't include forum ballots, although I do include ballots from things like the Time Out list where you have people like Wes Craven, Simon Pegg etc and the final list too because there is so much variation from the final list and the ballots, and the weighting difference, that there is not really a problem of doubling up. I do include lists from 'average joe's' but not every single list I come across and I did mention this to Kong - nothing like 'best films on Netflix' for example - and I do some research on the authors to determine weighting/inclusion. But I don't agree that this makes the list less definitive. Critics are not the be all and end all, especially when it comes to genres that are somewhat 'defined' by their personal reaction potential - fear and laughter - so I don't think this is a really an issue. Everything can be tweaked later too.

PS I'll try to work out that program issue soon but I think I broke my toe yesterday and have been too sad to do anything lol
Thank you so much for everything you have done to help me thus far. I sincerely appreciate it. I was nervous in contacting you about it because I was afraid you might feel like the idea was a ripoff. However this project turns out, it's certainly indebted to TSZDT, because the idea would have never organically occurred to me. Yeah, I was indeed planning to go the public Google sheet route. Transparency is obviously important. I don't mind making a website if I absolutely have to, but it certainly would be easier on the wallet (and time) to skip that step if at all possible.

Okay, so just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, you wouldn't include individual ballots from something like the RYM poll or the ICM forum's poll? I want to do it exactly the way TSZDT was done so that no one will feel it's an inaccurate or compromised project. If the forum ballots don't merit inclusion, where would I find some more suitable lists from "regular people?" I completely agree that critics aren't the only/ultimate source when it comes to films in the "lowbrow" genres. They aren't suited to all tastes, but I don't believe that anyone could fairly argue against the importance and influence of Sandler's 90s films. And yet, the only one with a positive Tomatometer the last time I checked is The Wedding Singer, which is the least "Sandler" of the bunch. Billy Madison has actually jumped all the way to 42% from critics, after once being around 15%. Before Wet Hot American Summer became a cult classic, I remember it having a 10%. The Friday the 13th franchise is not well-regarded by mainstream critics. Horror fans adamantly disagree, and I'm happy that TSZDT reflects that. We already know what critics think the best comedies are. That's too minor of a goal for TTPDT to tackle.

No worries at all, it'll be a long time before I'm ready to use the program. So sorry to hear about your toe! Take care of yourself before worrying about this stuff.
Spoiler
Also, thank you for using my pronoun! :D That's such a source of frustration in my everyday life.
πŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈ
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5482
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#45

Post by Fergenaprido »

mightysparks wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 12:41 am Oh I'd love a They Shoot Rainbows list :( Not sure it would be a top 1000 though :D
I can send you over my spreadsheet if you want, or upload it to Google Drive. Maybe next year I'll add it to icm; it just feels incomplete to me still. There are over 1700 films in my list, but only ~800 of them are mentioned in at least one list I track. The top 200 or so are probably pretty solid.
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1478
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#46

Post by kongs_speech »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 12:30 am (and we're currently looking into fixing the Vogel list)
Vogel's ghost came to me in a vision and said that he didn't actually mean to include all of the films that haven't surfaced online yet. You can trust me on this.
πŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈ
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
User avatar
frbrown
Posts: 6638
Joined: November 1st, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#47

Post by frbrown »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 12:30 am Also, if the list is just every film mentioned in the book, but the book actually has specific chapters for each film, or a comprehensive list somewhere, then perhaps the King list simply needs to be edited to accurately reflect the book - we've done this for other lists in the past (and we're currently looking into fixing the Vogel list), so if someone gets a copy of the book (just checked, it's not at my library), we can do some cross-reference (unless that info is already on the forum somewhere... the list was adopted a long time ago, perhaps before the forum existed).
I'm not Lammetje, but here you go:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1663

I guess one reason why King's list was picked over others was because it includes some non-English comedies.
User avatar
mightysparks
Site Admin
Posts: 31428
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#48

Post by mightysparks »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 12:48 am
mightysparks wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 12:41 am Oh I'd love a They Shoot Rainbows list :( Not sure it would be a top 1000 though :D
I can send you over my spreadsheet if you want, or upload it to Google Drive. Maybe next year I'll add it to icm; it just feels incomplete to me still. There are over 1700 films in my list, but only ~800 of them are mentioned in at least one list I track. The top 200 or so are probably pretty solid.
Yea I'd like to check it out, unless you'd prefer to wait until it's been more perfected.
kongs_speech wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 12:45 am Okay, so just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, you wouldn't include individual ballots from something like the RYM poll or the ICM forum's poll? I want to do it exactly the way TSZDT was done so that no one will feel it's an inaccurate or compromised project. If the forum ballots don't merit inclusion, where would I find some more suitable lists from "regular people?"
No, I would just use the final lists for those. I did include forum ballots to begin with as I was still getting a sense of how the list was going, what kind of weightings etc to use, but I took them out once I had more lists. People often post their lists on blogs and websites so you should be able to find a lot from a google search.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

iCM | IMDb | LastFM | TSZDT

Image
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9422
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#49

Post by xianjiro »

Checked my library for King's book but no luck. However.... https://archive.org/details/filmcomedy0000king . I do have an account and will check it out but wanted to allow Kong or anyone else who is helping with the project first dibs. Archive usually has only a limited number of copies available.
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9422
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#50

Post by xianjiro »

On a different note: websites aren't a big issue and I would be willing to help find a solution when the project gets to that phase.
blocho
Donator
Posts: 4621
Joined: July 20th, 2014, 6:00 am
Contact:

#51

Post by blocho »

Cool project.

But maybe it's time to move away from the old "They x x, don't they" snowclone. Perhaps a more comedy focused take on a movie title -- "Some Like it Funny" or "Monty Python and the Great Comedy List" or "Kind Hearts and Comedies." Just an idea.
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9422
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#52

Post by xianjiro »

Wonder what's the greatest comedy line in cinema ...
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5482
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#53

Post by Fergenaprido »

xianjiro wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 7:29 am Wonder what's the greatest comedy line in cinema ...
My vote goes to "Nobody's Perfect" until someone convinces me otherwise. :D

I like the idea for a poll, though... :think:
blocho
Donator
Posts: 4621
Joined: July 20th, 2014, 6:00 am
Contact:

#54

Post by blocho »

xianjiro wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 7:29 am Wonder what's the greatest comedy line in cinema ...
"Excuse me bearfucker, do you need assistance?"
User avatar
Knaldskalle
Moderator
Posts: 10430
Joined: May 9th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: New Mexico, USA
Contact:

#55

Post by Knaldskalle »

xianjiro wrote: ↑December 6th, 2020, 1:34 am Checked my library for King's book but no luck. However.... https://archive.org/details/filmcomedy0000king . I do have an account and will check it out but wanted to allow Kong or anyone else who is helping with the project first dibs. Archive usually has only a limited number of copies available.
I have a copy.
ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.
User avatar
Prat
Posts: 652
Joined: May 4th, 2012, 6:00 am
Location: France
Contact:

#56

Post by Prat »

As I have a book by a journalist (and author of a dozen of books about cinema) about French comedies between 1953 and 1993, I created a list.
The movies are rated from 1/4 to 4/4 and I decided to not include the 1/4 movies because... well, the author says in a lot of them that they're bad. The list is ranked by rating and then alphabetically.

(btw, if I did some mistakes in english in the presentation on ICM, tell me :lol: )

The list : Marc Lemonier's French Comedies 1953-1993

I hope it will help for your project.
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1478
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#58

Post by kongs_speech »

Thanks, everyone. I'll add in the latest lists once I've (hopefully) recovered from the COVID that I just officially found out I have. I don't have the mental capacity to work on it right now.
πŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈ
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5482
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#59

Post by Fergenaprido »

kongs_speech wrote: ↑December 7th, 2020, 4:44 pm Thanks, everyone. I'll add in the latest lists once I've (hopefully) recovered from the COVID that I just officially found out I have. I don't have the mental capacity to work on it right now.
Oh dear! Recovery should be foremost in your mind. Get well, and if you need to take a mental break from the forum until you know you've recovered, do so. This list can wait :)
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9422
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#60

Post by xianjiro »

we're hoping for a speedy recovery for you and your mum!
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1478
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#61

Post by kongs_speech »

Thanks to everyone. :cheers:
πŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈ
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9422
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#62

Post by xianjiro »

I'm going to check out Geoff King's comedy book - I'll only have it for an hour I see - so what questions do folks want answered? Not sure how searchable the book will be and often these are simply page scans which limits searching to the ways of last century: ToC and Index.

I know I want to read the entries for the porn films Penishands, Sperminator, etc - such choices as comedy simply baffle me now that I've suffered and earned my checks.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5482
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#63

Post by Fergenaprido »

xianjiro wrote: ↑December 9th, 2020, 10:15 pm I'm going to check out Geoff King's comedy book - I'll only have it for an hour I see - so what questions do folks want answered? Not sure how searchable the book will be and often these are simply page scans which limits searching to the ways of last century: ToC and Index.

I know I want to read the entries for the porn films Penishands, Sperminator, etc - such choices as comedy simply baffle me now that I've suffered and earned my checks.
My main interest is how is the book structured and how is the list that we have on icm constructed. Is there a list in the index or appendix, is it just every film mentioned, is it only those with separate entries, etc.

Since Knalds has a copy, I think we can refer to him for more in-depth research about specific titles, inclusions, and exclusions (if he's willing, of course).
User avatar
3eyes
Donator
Posts: 7241
Joined: May 17th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

#64

Post by 3eyes »

As usual, there's so much arguing about personal lists that I'm totally confused. FWIW, here is my contribution to the 2016 comedy poll:

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls063418228/
:run: STILL the Gaffer!
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9422
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#65

Post by xianjiro »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑December 9th, 2020, 10:57 pm
xianjiro wrote: ↑December 9th, 2020, 10:15 pm I'm going to check out Geoff King's comedy book - I'll only have it for an hour I see - so what questions do folks want answered? Not sure how searchable the book will be and often these are simply page scans which limits searching to the ways of last century: ToC and Index.

I know I want to read the entries for the porn films Penishands, Sperminator, etc - such choices as comedy simply baffle me now that I've suffered and earned my checks.
My main interest is how is the book structured and how is the list that we have on icm constructed. Is there a list in the index or appendix, is it just every film mentioned, is it only those with separate entries, etc.

Since Knalds has a copy, I think we can refer to him for more in-depth research about specific titles, inclusions, and exclusions (if he's willing, of course).
Okay, turns out I can keep the book for 14 days (think it's returned automatically on Christmas Eve), so can answer any other questions folks have. If anyone else is itching to check out the copy, let me know and I'll return it so you can have it ASAP.

I screencapped the contents, filmography, index, and the second half of the paragraph where the three pornos are referenced. It's not great quality, but at least it's readable. Let me know if there is anything else in particular you'd like me to grab and share here.

https://we.tl/t-0tKxq1l7Qs

I'm going to hazard a guess and suggest the list was developed from the filmography. If you want, I am happy to verify that, but I don't want to repeat work that someone else plans to do.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5482
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#66

Post by Fergenaprido »

Thanks xian. If everything in the list is taken directly from the filmography, then I suppose the list was constructed correctly, even if people don't like some of the entries. That snippet about the porn films makes their inclusion make sense, to me.

I can compare the icm list with the filmography, but I want to get to a couple of other list-related tasks first.
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9422
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#67

Post by xianjiro »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑December 12th, 2020, 2:26 am Thanks xian. If everything in the list is taken directly from the filmography, then I suppose the list was constructed correctly, even if people don't like some of the entries. That snippet about the porn films makes their inclusion make sense, to me.

I can compare the icm list with the filmography, but I want to get to a couple of other list-related tasks first.
:thumbsup: works for me and I agree with what you've said. With the three pornos mentioned both in the text and filmography they clearly meet what I understand to be the standard list prep/verification procedure. However, that leads me to wonder just how useful an official list derived from a book might be. But that's just something for the mods to consider going forward.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5482
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#68

Post by Fergenaprido »

Agreed. Personally, I've enjoyed working on the list, albeit I haven't gone too deep into it yet (still less than a bronze), but I tend to enjoy more comedy films to some degree (and I've avoided the "stupid comedy" ones so far), but I don't think it's a particularly great list. I think it definitely filled a gap that was needed when it was adopted (5? 6? 7? years ago), but would love to locate a better large comedy list (most of the ones that get published are only 50-100 titles).
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1478
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#69

Post by kongs_speech »

I'm bumping this just because I wanted to let people know that I intend to start working on it again pretty soon. It's not an abandoned project, just one that got postponed due to personal obligations and other projects such as a screenplay for which I'm in the planning stage.
πŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈ
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
User avatar
weirdboy
Donator
Posts: 4064
Joined: January 3rd, 2016, 7:00 am
Contact:

#70

Post by weirdboy »

Is there an ICM Forum favorite comedies poll list somewhere?

I have been thinking about Hellzapoppin' again lately.
User avatar
frbrown
Posts: 6638
Joined: November 1st, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#71

Post by frbrown »

weirdboy wrote: ↑January 7th, 2021, 11:55 am Is there an ICM Forum favorite comedies poll list somewhere?

I have been thinking about Hellzapoppin' again lately.
2016
2012
Post Reply