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Setting up the 2021 Poll schedule - Suggestions and discussion

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Lonewolf2003
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#81

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

I will put it in. But it sounds way too broad for me.

I see our polls mainly as by us for us and not for people who most probably (don’t frequent) this forum anyhow. And the (few) users here that do not like b/w films won’t be convinced by the result, cause they mainly fall into PA’s second category. Also a list which aim it is to convince those kind of “normal” casual viewers that b/w films aren’t boring, won’t be of much interest too most of us.
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#82

Post by zzzorf »

I agree. I would be interested in a favourite B&W list but not a recommend list
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#83

Post by Onderhond »

I (of course) like the idea.
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#84

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Onderhond wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 4:54 am I (of course) like the idea.
Because you have a list in mind or because you want to see if there's anything in the list you're interested in?
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#85

Post by Onderhond »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 5:04 am
Onderhond wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 4:54 am I (of course) like the idea.
Because you have a list in mind or because you want to see if there's anything in the list you're interested in?
A bit of both I guess. Though if it ends up a list with just screwball comedies and noirs, then no thanks.
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#86

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 »

I actually love the idea of a black and white recommends list for those not usually interested in black and white films. It would make me think about every entry to my list and I'd love to get involved in that. One I would be excited to take part in!

Music videos as well would be a pretty cool undertaking.
That's all, folks!
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#87

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

This weekend I want to take the next step in the process and start polling the options. There's a total of 62 options to choose from now; 22 repeating and 40 new ones. The polling will be done in a public poll in a new topic, not by private pm. Cause it's less work for me plus I see it less as a problem when people possibly vote tactical when choosing just 8 options for the poll schedule.

I'm leaning now toward doing just one big poll with all options and the 8 winners taking the free spots. (When the poll doesn't result in 8 clear winners because of multiple "winners/runner-ups" with the same amount of votes, a follow-up poll can be hold.) Or do you all think that with 62 option it's too unclear to oversee?

Or should we do first two preliminary polls resulting in 16 winners, that will go into battle in another final poll which will decide the 8 spots? The options of these two preliminary polls will be split randomly in half.
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#88

Post by beavis »

If you allow people less options, like choose 5 or 6, there will be less room for tactical voting... maybe?
Personally i'd be ok with one big poll
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#89

Post by Fergenaprido »

I prefer having two rounds, personally. With all 62 options in a single poll, the results will likely be too spread out, and the "winners" may not have that much support and thus may not get much participation when the polls are actually run. I don't think you need to have multiple polls in the first round, but I would say if there are 62 options, then the top 16 or 20 or so options (or whatever the cutoff is) then move to the second round and people can pick the final 8. I think this will allow for more honest/less strategic voting in the first round, but also ensure that whatever comes out on top in the second round gets a larger buy-in from the community.

I don't know if I explained that clearly or not. :fingerscrossed:
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#90

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Fergenaprido wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 3:02 pm I prefer having two rounds, personally. With all 62 options in a single poll, the results will likely be too spread out, and the "winners" may not have that much support and thus may not get much participation when the polls are actually run. I don't think you need to have multiple polls in the first round, but I would say if there are 62 options, then the top 16 or 20 or so options (or whatever the cutoff is) then move to the second round and people can pick the final 8. I think this will allow for more honest/less strategic voting in the first round, but also ensure that whatever comes out on top in the second round gets a larger buy-in from the community.

I don't know if I explained that clearly or not. :fingerscrossed:
I understand. You mean do one big poll first and from that instead of getting the 8 winners, chosing 16 to 20 winners which will compete in a final poll.
I think that is indeed a good option to use, if the votes are indeed too spread out.
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#91

Post by OldAle1 »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: October 22nd, 2020, 9:06 pm I will put it in. But it sounds way too broad for me.

I see our polls mainly as by us for us and not for people who most probably (don’t frequent) this forum anyhow. And the (few) users here that do not like b/w films won’t be convinced by the result, cause they mainly fall into PA’s second category. Also a list which aim it is to convince those kind of “normal” casual viewers that b/w films aren’t boring, won’t be of much interest too most of us.
What about a narrowing then? Best b/w films since 1970 (or 1965 - the year can be argued I guess, but 1970 gives us a nice even 50 years). Before the 1960s b/w was a necessity for low-budget filmmakers and many filmmakers in developing countries, not an artistic choice, and before the 1950s that was true even in the US, UK, Japan, etc with very few exceptions. But in the last 50 years the vast majority of b/w features (leaving aside purely experimental stuff) have been made monochrome by choice, so I think a list of these films would say more about poll respondents' artistic inclinations than just "oh, everything in the 40s was b/w so Citizen Kane obviously". You could do the same kind of poll for silent films post-1935 though I think there might not be enough choices to make things interesting for most people.
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#92

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

OldAle1 wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 3:32 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: October 22nd, 2020, 9:06 pm I will put it in. But it sounds way too broad for me.

I see our polls mainly as by us for us and not for people who most probably (don’t frequent) this forum anyhow. And the (few) users here that do not like b/w films won’t be convinced by the result, cause they mainly fall into PA’s second category. Also a list which aim it is to convince those kind of “normal” casual viewers that b/w films aren’t boring, won’t be of much interest too most of us.
What about a narrowing then? Best b/w films since 1970 (or 1965 - the year can be argued I guess, but 1970 gives us a nice even 50 years). Before the 1960s b/w was a necessity for low-budget filmmakers and many filmmakers in developing countries, not an artistic choice, and before the 1950s that was true even in the US, UK, Japan, etc with very few exceptions. But in the last 50 years the vast majority of b/w features (leaving aside purely experimental stuff) have been made monochrome by choice, so I think a list of these films would say more about poll respondents' artistic inclinations than just "oh, everything in the 40s was b/w so Citizen Kane obviously". You could do the same kind of poll for silent films post-1935 though I think there might not be enough choices to make things interesting for most people.
A poll for our favorite b/w movies post 1970 I myself would be interested and would result in a interesting list for our forum I think.
But I think it doesn't suit beasterne's purpose to convince people b/w movies aren't boring but worth watching. That to me is more about recommending 12 Angry Men or Psycho to casual viewers to show those people "reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally" old movies aren't boring than to convince people that The Man Who Wasn't There or Schindler's List aren't.
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#93

Post by sol »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 3:49 pm I think it doesn't suit beasterne's purpose to convince people b/w movies aren't boring but worth watching. That to me is more about recommending 12 Angry Men or Psycho to casual viewers to show those people "reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally" old movies aren't boring than to convince people that The Man Who Wasn't There or Schindler's List aren't.
If it's not too late, Lonewolf, I'll nominate Contemporary Black & White Films myself. -_-

I would also be interested in an Under 50 checks ultra-obscura poll.

But yeah, if it's too late, don't worry about my suggestions. Should have chimed in earlier... :unsure:
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#94

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

sol wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 4:02 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 3:49 pm I think it doesn't suit beasterne's purpose to convince people b/w movies aren't boring but worth watching. That to me is more about recommending 12 Angry Men or Psycho to casual viewers to show those people "reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally" old movies aren't boring than to convince people that The Man Who Wasn't There or Schindler's List aren't.
If it's not too late, Lonewolf, I'll nominate Contemporary Black & White Films myself. -_-

I would also be interested in an Under 50 checks ultra-obscura poll.

But yeah, if it's too late, don't worry about my suggestions. Should have chimed in earlier... :unsure:
It's not to late. Until I start the poll I will still accept options.

With Contemporary Black & White Films you mean OldAle1's idea of b/w after 1970 (or another tbd year)? Cause I was actually thinking of putting that option in myself too.
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#95

Post by Onderhond »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 3:49 pm That to me is more about recommending 12 Angry Men or Psycho to casual viewers to show those people "reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally" old movies aren't boring than to convince people that The Man Who Wasn't There or Schindler's List aren't.
Sounds like idle hope to me. :D Guess I'm more on board with OldAle1/sol's suggestion then.
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#96

Post by sol »

Actually, I was thinking 1967 - since that's the year the Academy abolished the B&W/Colour divides for Cinematography, Art Direction and Costumes. It's also the earliest year where (at at glance, mind you, not actual calculations) more than half of the films that I have seen were in colour.

Then again, I guess budget reasons may have held others back... things like The Honeymoon Killers came out as late as 1970.

Maybe go 1971? That way The Last Picture Show can still be eligible? :D Or perhaps 1981 would be more interesting, since that would take Raging Bull and The Elephant Man out of the equation.

We can probably vote on these exact specifics IF the idea is popular enough in the poll. No idea if it will be.
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#97

Post by OldAle1 »

sol wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 4:13 pm Actually, I was thinking 1967 - since that's the year the Academy abolished the B&W/Colour divides for Cinematography, Art Direction and Costumes. It's also the earliest year where (at at glance, mind you, not actual calculations) more than half of the films that I have seen were in colour.

Then again, I guess budget reasons may have held others back... things like The Honeymoon Killers came out as late as 1970.

Maybe go 1971? That way The Last Picture Show can still be eligible? :D Or perhaps 1981 would be more interesting, since that would take Raging Bull and The Elephant Man out of the equation.

We can probably vote on these exact specifics IF the idea is popular enough in the poll. No idea if it will be.
I don't think there's a perfect year for the starting point, and we have to keep in mind that color's dominance began at different times in different countries. For a lot of developing cinemas like Iran and India there was still a fair amount of b/w feature production into the early 70s; on the other hand since I'm focusing on the Philippines now I've noticed that b/w seems to have disappeared pretty quickly there after about 1965 - I haven't seen any b/w features from the late 60s until Lav Diaz began making them in 2004 and it looks like nearly all the directors that have any international rep today worked in color only through this period. Since we're also doing horror, it's worth noting that cutoff for this generally lower-budgeted genre seems to be in the '65-68 period - very few b/w films 1969 on, very few color ones before 65 (Hammer and Italian cinema being exceptions).

In any case your point about '67 and the academy is a good one, even though that really is mostly about Hollywood. I'd pick either that or my choice of 1970 for the even half-century. I don't see a point in going later as by the early 70s b/w was really uncommon in the major developed cinemas and starting to get uncommon even in a country like the Philippines, or Mexico, or Canada.

I have a predicted winner already though:
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#98

Post by beasterne »

Ah, now I like this spin on my original suggestion. My idea is definitely what Lonewolf said above: highlighting films that could be a "baby thrown out with the bathwater" for someone who says "all b&w films are boring or too old". Something like His Girl Friday, which is a b&w comedy from the 40s, but nevertheless has a cynical wit, snappy dialogue, and a fast plot that could still be interesting to audiences in 2020.

But doing a poll of modern b&w movies also sounds really interesting, so I would support that one as well! And 1970 sounds like a reasonable cutoff--that gives us 50 (or 51 I guess, since the poll will happen in 2021) years to draw from.
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