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Rankdown II - Best Picture Nominees ('09-'19) (Congrats to the Winner!)

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Onderhond
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Re: Rankdown II - Best Picture Nominees ('09-'19) (Round 8, #4-#1!)

#1281

Post by Onderhond » July 25th, 2020, 6:01 pm

It's a real shame AB537 wasted his veto on Parasite and didn't go for his second choice (GBH), we'd have a much nicer finale (with three films and three different vetoes).

I'm okay with jumping right to the finale btw. People might have been complaining about some of us protecting GBH like crazies, then again many ganged up on the film and for me it was the only film left worth protecting.

I had two plans going into this game. Plan A was protecting one of my 4 underdog favorites (Mother, District 9, Shape of Water, Black Swan) until the vote-off, but they were all cut without any kind of fuss (except District 9, but that was very early on) well before I could double-save any of them into the vote-off. GBH was Plan B for me, I'm glad it got this far even though it had a regular gang of cutters going against it. Wasn't any other film left worth playing for in the vote off, otherwise it would've been really boring.

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#1282

Post by jeroeno » July 25th, 2020, 6:22 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:01 pm


I had two plans going into this game. Plan A was protecting one of my 4 underdog favorites (Mother, District 9, Shape of Water, Black Swan)
The Darren Aronofsky film Mother! ? I wish that would've been nominated for an Oscar or two (or twelve).

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#1283

Post by brokenface » July 25th, 2020, 6:33 pm

beasterne wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 4:47 pm
I am trying really hard to think of a reason to have the final three vote. If we have two players guaranteeing to use their veto for their favorites in this round, the last round they can use the veto, then I think the movie without a veto has to be eliminated. I guess the one reason to run this round is if one of the veto holders thinks their favorite will have a better chance of winning against Parasite than against the other, they could theoretically veto Parasite and let the other film be eliminated. It’s an unlikely scenario, but it is possible I guess.
That scenario would lead to their first choice being eliminated, because the other person would veto their film. So i can't see why they'd make that play

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#1284

Post by brokenface » July 25th, 2020, 6:33 pm

jeroeno wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:22 pm
Onderhond wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:01 pm


I had two plans going into this game. Plan A was protecting one of my 4 underdog favorites (Mother, District 9, Shape of Water, Black Swan)
The Darren Aronofsky film Mother! ? I wish that would've been nominated for an Oscar or two (or twelve).
Definitely an extreme underdog!

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#1285

Post by OldAle1 » July 25th, 2020, 6:36 pm

brokenface wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:33 pm
jeroeno wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:22 pm
Onderhond wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:01 pm


I had two plans going into this game. Plan A was protecting one of my 4 underdog favorites (Mother, District 9, Shape of Water, Black Swan)
The Darren Aronofsky film Mother! ? I wish that would've been nominated for an Oscar or two (or twelve).
Definitely an extreme underdog!
It really didn't have a chance against consensus favorite and BAFTA/GG winner Wish Upon that year though.

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#1286

Post by beasterne » July 25th, 2020, 7:05 pm

Alright, thanks for your patience everyone! Parasite will finish in third place, an excellent showing for the most recent BP winner!

We are down to our final two, A Serious Man and Her. The final round will have no vetoes. So, just cast your vote for the film you wish to cut. The film with the most cuts will finish in second, and we will have our champion!

A Serious Man 1
Her

My vote is to cut A Serious Man. Both of these films are excellent, just fantastic achievements in filmmaking. For me it’s actually coming down to which film I responded to on a more emotional level. And that movie is Her for me. I wouldn’t be surprised if in another 20 or 30 years I revisit this question and have a different answer, because ASM is a really powerful statement about humanity, faith, and the random nature of the universe. But as of now, Her gets my vote for what it was able to say about our world and how it hit me at the time in my life that I saw it.

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#1287

Post by OldAle1 » July 25th, 2020, 7:07 pm

I said my piece earlier - and beasterne sez something similar - so, obviously -

A Serious Man 2
Her

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#1288

Post by jeroeno » July 25th, 2020, 7:12 pm

Joaquin Phoenix wasn't even nominated :facepalm:

Spike Jonze wasn't nominated for best Director :facepalm:

I guess everybody was too busy sucking David O. Russell's American Whistle

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A Serious Man 3
Her
Last edited by jeroeno on July 25th, 2020, 7:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#1289

Post by shugs » July 25th, 2020, 7:16 pm

A Serious Man 4
Her

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#1290

Post by AB537 » July 25th, 2020, 7:16 pm

A Serious Man 5
Her

I've already made my comments about these being the last two and have voted to cut both during the course of the knockout stage - they were my bottom two from at least the top 7 on, which isn't to say they aren't quality films. That being said, I prefer Her.

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#1291

Post by brokenface » July 25th, 2020, 7:24 pm

Let's start the comeback

A Serious Man 5
Her 1

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#1292

Post by Onderhond » July 25th, 2020, 7:58 pm

brokenface wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:33 pm
jeroeno wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:22 pm
Onderhond wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:01 pm


I had two plans going into this game. Plan A was protecting one of my 4 underdog favorites (Mother, District 9, Shape of Water, Black Swan)
The Darren Aronofsky film Mother! ? I wish that would've been nominated for an Oscar or two (or twelve).
Definitely an extreme underdog!
Honestly, I don't know where my brain hangs out these days but I guess I've reached that age where I should start doublechecking things :D

So yeah, I meant Gravity. Almost the same film :p

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#1293

Post by Onderhond » July 25th, 2020, 8:02 pm

I'm cutting Her.

I hated the hipster/Apple vision of the future, disliked Phoenix' droopy style of acting, thought the premise was rather dull and uninspired and was really (really) disappointed Jonze made such a bad film. A Serious Man is a middle-of-the-road Coen, too much dramady for my taste, not funny enough, lazy open ending that got way too much credit and the cinematography was pretty poor too. At least it had some decent moments, but nothing very memorable.

I kinda feel bad now about cutting Mad Max instead of Her earlier, on the other hand I'd still prefer Her to win over Mad Max, so it was probably just for the best.

A Serious Man 5
Her 2

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#1294

Post by jeff_v » July 25th, 2020, 9:07 pm

As mentioned earlier,

A Serious Man 5
Her 3

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#1295

Post by blocho » July 25th, 2020, 9:44 pm

I like both movies a lot, and I'm happy these are the final two. Like beasterne, I connected to Her more on an emotional level. I loved how it mixed sci-fi and a philosophical exploration of what it means to be human into a love story. I ranked Her sixth on my 2010s list.

A Serious Man 6
Her 3

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#1296

Post by prodigalgodson » July 25th, 2020, 10:21 pm

I'm with onderhond on Her, no disrespect to anyone who connected to it but this kind of paean to male fragility is really not my cup of tea, and Phoenix, one of my favorite actors, just wasn't well cast here. Droopy is a hilariously on-point description. A Serious Man on the other hand is my favorite from the Coens after Lebowski and one of the best films of the century so far.

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#1297

Post by toromash » July 25th, 2020, 11:05 pm

A Serious Man 6
Her 4

Still haven't seen ASM, so gotta vote for Her, which is ranked 20 in my current decade list. What a shame.

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#1298

Post by cinewest » July 26th, 2020, 12:17 am

Between these two, I am cutting Her, as I said earlier

A Serious Man 6
Her 5

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#1299

Post by mightysparks » July 26th, 2020, 1:17 am

A Serious Man 7
Her 5

I agree with OldAle’s comments on Her, the film was particularly relevant to me at the time. I love A Serious Man too—both of these films are 8s—but it wasn’t quite as emotionally effective.
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#1300

Post by Nathan Treadway » July 26th, 2020, 1:20 am

A Serious Man 8
Her 5

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#1301

Post by cinewest » July 26th, 2020, 2:06 am

It's easy to understand why Her is so popular, here. Besides the demographics, it is a film that aptly fits with participants on social media message boards and the whole notion of virtual relationships. That said, it is mostly a conversation piece that doesn't really say anything revelatory. Fair enough. Good game, if a bit slow at times

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#1302

Post by sol » July 26th, 2020, 2:16 am

Definitely a close final. The scores might even end up at 8 vs 7.

I like both of these films a lot; Her is even the source of my quote on my iCM profile. I have also have enormous respect for both films since both were initial disappointments that improved a lot with repeat viewings, and I think I might actually be up to three viewings for both. Great final match. :thumbsup:

A Serious Man 8
Her 6
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#1303

Post by blocho » July 26th, 2020, 3:55 am

Congrats to Her! It was on my shortlist of four movies I wanted to win. I had a feeling it had a chance because very few people mentioned it until there were about six movies left.

I like A Serious Man a lot, but I have to admit being surprised that it did so well. I didn't know it had such a high level of support.

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#1304

Post by cinewest » July 26th, 2020, 4:07 am

blocho wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 3:55 am
Congrats to Her! It was on my shortlist of four movies I wanted to win. I had a feeling it had a chance because very few people mentioned it until there were about six movies left.

I like A Serious Man a lot, but I have to admit being surprised that it did so well. I didn't know it had such a high level of support.
There were a couple of attempts to attack a serious Man in the vote off. But nothing too serious, and I did everything I could to protect it once Birdman was sent off.
That said, the main reason it got to the final has to do with Jeff, who decided to save his veto to defend it rather than use it for GBH The round before.


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#1306

Post by brokenface » July 26th, 2020, 12:11 pm

Congrats to Her. I think A Serious Man was always an outside shot, which did well to get to the final 2. Funnily enough i think Parasite would have beaten either of them in a straight runoff, but that's the power of vetoes.

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#1307

Post by cinewest » July 26th, 2020, 2:50 pm

jeroeno wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 7:12 pm
Joaquin Phoenix wasn't even nominated :facepalm:

Spike Jonze wasn't nominated for best Director :facepalm:

I guess everybody was too busy sucking David O. Russell's American Whistle

Image

A Serious Man 3
Her
Decided to take a look at my 2013 ratings, and notice that I have 35 out of 75 seen with a 7 score or better (25 of these, like Her, were in the 7-8 range, and only 10 were 8 or better). Her is close to an 8 in my book, but not quite, and my favorite American film of 2013 was Inside Llewyn Davis, though Her is probably among my top 5 American films of that year.

As for best performance in English, I would probably give that to Tom Hardy for his extraordinary solo work in Locke.

If I were to include films made in a language other than English there are 3 that would definitely be in my top 5 for that year: The Great Beauty, Touch of Sin, and Heimat: Home from Home

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#1308

Post by OldAle1 » July 26th, 2020, 3:26 pm

Overall as I think about it, this is the best result I could reasonably have hoped for given the players involved. I knew Little Women wouldn't go far as sol and mighty both expressed their dislike for it earlier, and I assumed there would be lots of resistance to La La Land (more than there was actually). But given that Her was my third favorite, and that it ranks very highly on the forum's decade list, it seemed at least that it would have a chance, though my personal (unstated) prediction was always Grand Budapest - which would have also been a winner I could be happy with.

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#1309

Post by beasterne » July 26th, 2020, 4:26 pm

Congrats to Her for a well-earned victory! And a big kudos to the players for making this a fun, strategic rankdown.

I think before we start the next round, we should rethink the format of the final stage. It definitely was a long process, and I understand the frustrations some felt during the latter parts of the game.

So with that being said, what do we think about changing the format for the next game? We can do a ranked ballot like the first game, we can use the format from this game, or we could try something else.

I know we talked about a ranked cut ballot, but in practice I don’t think that works if we want vetoes to continue to be useful in the final round. If a film has the votes to be cut, and that cut is vetoed, the movie will definitely be cut the following round. So vetoes can really only delay a cut by one round, which isn’t super useful.

I liked the idea that was floated about getting everyone online at the same time to run through the whole final round at once, but I don’t know how feasible that is? I know we have US, Europe, and Australia based players, so this could be tough but I’m open to it!

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#1310

Post by AB537 » July 26th, 2020, 4:49 pm

beasterne wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:26 pm
Congrats to Her for a well-earned victory! And a big kudos to the players for making this a fun, strategic rankdown.

I think before we start the next round, we should rethink the format of the final stage. It definitely was a long process, and I understand the frustrations some felt during the latter parts of the game.

So with that being said, what do we think about changing the format for the next game? We can do a ranked ballot like the first game, we can use the format from this game, or we could try something else.

I know we talked about a ranked cut ballot, but in practice I don’t think that works if we want vetoes to continue to be useful in the final round. If a film has the votes to be cut, and that cut is vetoed, the movie will definitely be cut the following round. So vetoes can really only delay a cut by one round, which isn’t super useful.

I liked the idea that was floated about getting everyone online at the same time to run through the whole final round at once, but I don’t know how feasible that is? I know we have US, Europe, and Australia based players, so this could be tough but I’m open to it!
Thanks Beasterne for organizing this game. It was very enjoyable, and interesting to see others' views on the eligible films, although I agree that the knockout rounds felt a bit dragged out.

I have mixed feelings about how to handle the final rounds. On one hand, the public vote is interesting, but it also takes a long time and probably leads to results we wouldn't necessarily see if people were voting by secret ballot - e.g. the continued piling on of various films in the name of the ultimately doomed effort to save The Grand Budapest Hotel, which actually had more detractors here than I thought. That campaign probably would have failed much earlier if people couldn't see how everyone else was voting. I also wonder about moving the cutoff for vetoes a bit earlier - while recognizing that I was among the last players to use a veto, the situation where 2 out of 15 players were able to bilaterally determine the final regardless of anyone else's opinions seemed a bit unfair, even though it's entirely plausible that would have been the result of the vote anyway. I should add the caveat that this resulted in my favourite film being cut, but don't think this would have altered my views on the process.

The alternative would be to have secret balloting, whether by private message each round or by ranked ballot at the outset of the knockout phase. While the ranked ballot would preclude bringing vetoes into the final rounds, a round by round secret ballot wouldn't, and either would probably yield a more representative result than the public ballot did. The secret ballot each round might be the best way of incorporating strategy without people piling onto films they actually like more than most available options in the name of saving something they like more.

While a round by round secret ballot might not be quicker, there are mechanisms that could be brought in to ensure things move at a reasonable pace. For example, when moving to another round, we could implement an assumption that every player whose selected film was NOT eliminated in the previous round will continue to vote for the same film in the next round (this may also nudge people towards voting for the film they would actually rank lowest). Then, there could be a 12 hour window for the people whose film WAS eliminated to vote for something else, and for anyone else to change their votes. This might balance strategy with speed.

One good thing we started doing to speed things up was to have people confirm whether they'd use a veto to reduce that 12 hour veto window, and that should definitely continue if vetoes are in play.

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#1311

Post by cinewest » July 27th, 2020, 4:27 pm

AB537 wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:49 pm
beasterne wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:26 pm
Congrats to Her for a well-earned victory! And a big kudos to the players for making this a fun, strategic rankdown.

I think before we start the next round, we should rethink the format of the final stage. It definitely was a long process, and I understand the frustrations some felt during the latter parts of the game.

So with that being said, what do we think about changing the format for the next game? We can do a ranked ballot like the first game, we can use the format from this game, or we could try something else.

I know we talked about a ranked cut ballot, but in practice I don’t think that works if we want vetoes to continue to be useful in the final round. If a film has the votes to be cut, and that cut is vetoed, the movie will definitely be cut the following round. So vetoes can really only delay a cut by one round, which isn’t super useful.

I liked the idea that was floated about getting everyone online at the same time to run through the whole final round at once, but I don’t know how feasible that is? I know we have US, Europe, and Australia based players, so this could be tough but I’m open to it!
Thanks Beasterne for organizing this game. It was very enjoyable, and interesting to see others' views on the eligible films, although I agree that the knockout rounds felt a bit dragged out.

I have mixed feelings about how to handle the final rounds. On one hand, the public vote is interesting, but it also takes a long time and probably leads to results we wouldn't necessarily see if people were voting by secret ballot - e.g. the continued piling on of various films in the name of the ultimately doomed effort to save The Grand Budapest Hotel, which actually had more detractors here than I thought. That campaign probably would have failed much earlier if people couldn't see how everyone else was voting. I also wonder about moving the cutoff for vetoes a bit earlier - while recognizing that I was among the last players to use a veto, the situation where 2 out of 15 players were able to bilaterally determine the final regardless of anyone else's opinions seemed a bit unfair, even though it's entirely plausible that would have been the result of the vote anyway. I should add the caveat that this resulted in my favourite film being cut, but don't think this would have altered my views on the process.

The alternative would be to have secret balloting, whether by private message each round or by ranked ballot at the outset of the knockout phase. While the ranked ballot would preclude bringing vetoes into the final rounds, a round by round secret ballot wouldn't, and either would probably yield a more representative result than the public ballot did. The secret ballot each round might be the best way of incorporating strategy without people piling onto films they actually like more than most available options in the name of saving something they like more.

While a round by round secret ballot might not be quicker, there are mechanisms that could be brought in to ensure things move at a reasonable pace. For example, when moving to another round, we could implement an assumption that every player whose selected film was NOT eliminated in the previous round will continue to vote for the same film in the next round (this may also nudge people towards voting for the film they would actually rank lowest). Then, there could be a 12 hour window for the people whose film WAS eliminated to vote for something else, and for anyone else to change their votes. This might balance strategy with speed.

One good thing we started doing to speed things up was to have people confirm whether they'd use a veto to reduce that 12 hour veto window, and that should definitely continue if vetoes are in play.
I was one of the main proponents of the secret ballot heading toward the final "vote down," but I actually enjoyed being able to strategize more by choosing when I would vote each round, and what I would vote for, according to the way things looked at the start of each round, as well as what the trends had been in previous rounds.

I based my strategy around protecting whatever my favorite was as best I could at any given point in time, and in also helping to eliminate the films I least wanted to succeed (as well as eliminating vetoes), and almost every round I had to consider a number of possible scenarios, as well as who might play vetoes, and for what.

For me, this increased the fun, even though I knew "my films" didn't really have a chance, and in spite of some of the long delays between rounds. Things worked best when participants took ownership for the ways they could delay the game, and made an effort to curb that, especially, as you said with the play of vetoes.

A Shout out to Beasterne for hosting, and Jeroeno for assisting in that regard

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#1312

Post by Onderhond » July 28th, 2020, 8:31 am

The tricky thing about the final round is that it could be really short too. I think that if I'd gone for plan A and played my two vetoes in the regular rounds, we might have had a final round with just 2 films and this whole discussion would've been moot.

Maybe we should look into a way to go from the final cutting round to a situation where there's a smaller/fixed amount of films to go into the final rounds (like 8 or so). If there's more we need a way to quickly cut down to X, if there's less we could do something where we might revive a couple of films to get back to X?

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#1313

Post by cinewest » July 28th, 2020, 10:01 am

Onderhond wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 8:31 am
The tricky thing about the final round is that it could be really short too. I think that if I'd gone for plan A and played my two vetoes in the regular rounds, we might have had a final round with just 2 films and this whole discussion would've been moot.

Maybe we should look into a way to go from the final cutting round to a situation where there's a smaller/fixed amount of films to go into the final rounds (like 8 or so). If there's more we need a way to quickly cut down to X, if there's less we could do something where we might revive a couple of films to get back to X?
Agree that getting the number of films down to around 8 before the “vote off” would be better, and suggest perhaps an intermediary step where the longer “final list” is culled to that number by a one time “list vote” involving cuts, where vetoes could also come into play, even counter-vetoes, in order to save / propel a film into the final 8.

An example using the previous game would be that everyone make a list of the 6 films they would like to bump from the final 14, where those with the most votes would require vetoes to save them, but where vetoes could also be used to nullify such a action, and so on.

I don’t think this would have made a difference in the game we just played, as GBH would have been saved the same way, though Sol might have used his veto to nullify this action only to be vetoed in turn.

At the very least, the culminating “vote off” would have taken less time.

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#1314

Post by beasterne » July 28th, 2020, 10:57 pm

I like that idea Onderhond. It would definitely speed things up in the final round, and it would also help players know with more certainty what the endgame will look like. We could make it as easy as just saying, well, we'll stop when we get to a final 8, and know that the cutters who go later in the list might get one fewer cut.

Or we could try what cinewest is proposing, which is interesting to me because it makes the ultimate champion have to survive the standard cutting rounds, the list vote cuts, and the public cuts at the end. That movie really has to prove its mettle.

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