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Doubling the Canon 2021 - Improvement suggestions. NAME POLL!

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes

What is the best name?

Doubling the Canon
19
46%
Expanding the Canon
7
17%
Beyond the Canon
12
29%
Other
3
7%
 
Total votes: 41

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#121

Post by Melvelet »

Melvelet wrote: February 14th, 2021, 12:32 pm So...shall we have some kind of poll?
Most of the recent discussion was about the name but while we're at it, we might as well include more questions
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#122

Post by yllow »

Diversifying the Canon—same initials. Or, Dilating the Canon.
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#123

Post by St. Gloede »

Remember that DtC is not a project carried out solely on our forum, we'd have to include SCFZ (are there other forums involved as well?) in any potential polling.
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#124

Post by Angel Glez »

Gordon_Gekko wrote: February 14th, 2021, 5:36 pm This are all films on DtC and TSPDT's 2000:
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/film ... don_gekko/

So cut to 1.000 will be no problem and there will be space for some new candidates.
Have to watch basketball now... go Celtics! :)
I like many of those films, but most of them are on 3 or more top lists, a sign that this is a right move.
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#125

Post by Angel Glez »

Since you are all crazy about the name, here's a name poll!
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#126

Post by joachimt »

I'd rather have a poll about the length and whether or not to exclude TSPDT1001-2000. Or is that set in stone already?
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#127

Post by hurluberlu »

You have not only ignored one but three of my carefully crafted suggestions The Other Canon, The Cine Canon and Death to The Canon © .
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#128

Post by Angel Glez »

joachimt wrote: February 15th, 2021, 7:57 pm I'd rather have a poll about the length and whether or not to exclude TSPDT1001-2000. Or is that set in stone already?
I thought that only sol wanted a DtC list with more than 1000 titles and only a couple of guys spoke out against TSPDT top 2000, but feel free to start polls yourself if you think there is a bias in favor of something.
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#129

Post by Angel Glez »

hurluberlu wrote: February 15th, 2021, 8:32 pm You have not only ignored one but three of my carefully crafted suggestions The Other Canon, The Cine Canon and Death to The Canon © .
:tongue:
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#130

Post by hurluberlu »

Angel Glez wrote: February 15th, 2021, 9:08 pm
hurluberlu wrote: February 15th, 2021, 8:32 pm You have not only ignored one but three of my carefully crafted suggestions The Other Canon, The Cine Canon and Death to The Canon © .
:tongue:
Actually, there is the Other one so I forgive you. :hug:
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#131

Post by sol »

Angel Glez wrote: February 15th, 2021, 9:06 pm
joachimt wrote: February 15th, 2021, 7:57 pm I'd rather have a poll about the length and whether or not to exclude TSPDT1001-2000. Or is that set in stone already?
I thought that only sol wanted a DtC list with more than 1000 titles and only a couple of guys spoke out against TSPDT top 2000, but feel free to start polls yourself if you think there is a bias in favor of something.
Yeah, I mean think it only makes sense for the DTC list to be 2000 films long given that the Canon is now 2000 films, but even I thought that I was completely alone in that opinion.

Some ideas just don't seem to pick up much traction - sort of like everyone on this thread saying that only getting to nominate 12 films a year is the best way to go even though the traditional amount of films we could nominate was always 15. :shrug:
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#132

Post by joachimt »

Angel Glez wrote: February 15th, 2021, 9:06 pm
joachimt wrote: February 15th, 2021, 7:57 pm I'd rather have a poll about the length and whether or not to exclude TSPDT1001-2000. Or is that set in stone already?
I thought that only sol wanted a DtC list with more than 1000 titles and only a couple of guys spoke out against TSPDT top 2000, but feel free to start polls yourself if you think there is a bias in favor of something.
Sorry, didn't read back all the discussion. So what has been decided so far?

This?
1000 titles
No titles from TSPDT 1-2000 and 21st century
Same rating system
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#133

Post by Melvelet »

If i understand it correctly, nothing was really decided except using a Bayesian formula for the ranking. Otherwise it would be like in the first post.
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#134

Post by beasterne »

Just to give the perspective of a "regular" ICM user I was totally confused and put off by the DtC list when I joined the site back in 2012. As a user I was presented with a page of 150+ official lists, but with no context beyond the name, the description, and the movies themselves. The title and the description of DtC both led me down the path of: TSPDT is the top 1000 film canon, which are excluded, so users are voting on which films should be #1001-2200. I was totally perplexed how I could have seen ~300/1000 of the top 1000, but only ~30 of the next 1200 (again, 2012-beasterne's perspective). Reading through the films at the top of the list and not having even heard of a single one of them before I was very quickly overwhelmed and disinterested in exploring the list further.

Even after joining ICMForum and starting to participate in polls I missed a whole year of DtC voting by not being able to understand the process (this was on me for not trying to learn, but it was quite confusing to jump right in without doing my homework). Now I think I have a grasp on the core concept of the list, and this thread has also been helpful to see how others approach voting for films in the poll and what they value in films they nominate/vote for.

As a newer participant in this poll (I've participated in the last two iterations) it's a very interesting project but I struggle to see why it should continue to be called Doubling the Canon for two reasons. 1, the canon is now defined as the 3000 films that are excluded, so to double that would be a total of 6000. And 2, "doubling" of a thing to me means, that thing, but 2x more of it. Not a critique and rebuke of that thing or the funhouse mirror version of the thing, which is closer to the reality of the list currently.

All this to say, I voted for changing the name to "Expanding the Canon", but I would also be open to "Beyond the Canon". I like both of these as new names for the list. I think they solve both of the issues I listed above, while still giving individual voters the freedom to vote for the films that they feel expand or go beyond the canon using whatever definition they decide that phrase means.
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#135

Post by mjf314 »

I'm ok with leaving it as "Doubling the Canon", but if we're going to change the name, I'd prefer an original name. There already is a list named "Beyond the Canon".

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/beyo ... n/baalman/
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#136

Post by Angel Glez »

beasterne wrote: February 16th, 2021, 5:48 pm The title and the description of DtC both led me down the path of: TSPDT is the top 1000 film canon, which are excluded, so users are voting on which films should be #1001-2200.
This is true. In fact, lee-109 (DtC's father) always advocated a DtC list together with TSPDT list and never alone. However, from ever the first edition it was obvious that the doubling had a life of its own, part canon, part anti-canon, part wtf.
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#137

Post by Onderhond »

I think "Expanding" is definitely better than "Beyond", simply because it does a better job conveying the nature and intent of the project. The list really is more of the same, a canon extension with films that failed to make the cut the first time. Beyond feels like going somewhere new, to unexplored places that are un-canon-like. I don't really get that impression looking at the resulting list.
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#138

Post by hurluberlu »

mjf314 wrote: February 16th, 2021, 5:55 pm There already is a list named "Beyond the Canon".

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/beyo ... n/baalman/
It is even a reference quoted in the "About" section of TSDPT:
http://www.theyshootpictures.com/notes.htm
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#139

Post by Melvelet »

Onderhond wrote: February 16th, 2021, 7:46 pm I think "Expanding" is definitely better than "Beyond", simply because it does a better job conveying the nature and intent of the project. The list really is more of the same, a canon extension with films that failed to make the cut the first time. Beyond feels like going somewhere new, to unexplored places that are un-canon-like. I don't really get that impression looking at the resulting list.
I would genuinely love to see a true "anti-canon", as in movies that are not simply missing from the canon because of being ultra-obscure or simply "bad" but movies that would still fit into a certain idea of what a "canon" is. Especially regarding the fact that the movies would need to have some kind of influence and popularity. Stuff that actually isn't there because it's not "high-brow"/"artistic" enough. Unfortunately the overall tendency of taste in this forum makes this not the right place to truly accomplish that...
What (kind of) movies would you suggest for the decades up to, say, the mid-80s? My immediate notion would be to focus on genre movies that are not typical critic's darlings at the same time. B (and poverty row) noirs, (b) western, horror, jidaigeki, kung fu movies? There's a good share of that on DtC so it might still not fit your definition of "un-canon-like" :mw_confused:
And then there would be stuff that is often deemed too "commercial" to be liked by the kind of people that are into the usual canon stuff. I guess most of the high-budget filmmaking up until some time in the 60 [?] falls into the canon region. Maybe some comedies/musicals (again it's hard to describe the line beyond which they are tendentially canon-candidates).
Any suggestions? (directed at everyone, not just Onderhond)
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#140

Post by Onderhond »

Well, you won't see many recommends from me when you only go up to the mid-80s of course, but what I think is missing from canon in general is genre cinema that doubles down on its genre elements. Without looking at the TSPDT list, but if there actually some martial arts in there, it's no doubt Ang Lee's film, or Hou's unlikely martial arts film, possibly Ip Man and Hero. Some of them are fine films alright, but none of them capture that crazy, zany, over-the-top, fast-paced, highly energetic action that generally draw martial arts fans to the genre. I guess a similar point could be made about the jidaigeki films that are present.

There's a niche of genre films where the directors have put a very distinct signature stamp on their films without necessarily having to cross over into commercial and/or arthouse cinema. If you were wondering what is lacking from canon, I think that's certainly a big part of it.
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#141

Post by Dolwphin »

Onderhond wrote: February 16th, 2021, 7:46 pm I think "Expanding" is definitely better than "Beyond", simply because it does a better job conveying the nature and intent of the project. The list really is more of the same, a canon extension with films that failed to make the cut the first time. Beyond feels like going somewhere new, to unexplored places that are un-canon-like. I don't really get that impression looking at the resulting list.
I asked a few people down at the super-market and they concurred that DtC is too familiar and well known fare. One customer said: "I have already seen all the films on the list twice on Netflix" which clearly indicates it is not exploring unexplored places.
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#142

Post by Onderhond »

Dolwphin wrote: February 17th, 2021, 10:02 pm I asked a few people down at the super-market and they concurred that DtC is too familiar and well known fare. One customer said: "I have already seen all the films on the list twice on Netflix" which clearly indicates it is not exploring unexplored places.
Well, there's a big difference between going to the same Chinese restaurant for the umpteenth time and picking the last dish on the menu you haven't tried, or switching to a Pakistani restaurant that offers a completely new cuisine.

DtC is the first.
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#143

Post by Dolwphin »

Onderhond wrote: February 17th, 2021, 10:08 pm
Dolwphin wrote: February 17th, 2021, 10:02 pm I asked a few people down at the super-market and they concurred that DtC is too familiar and well known fare. One customer said: "I have already seen all the films on the list twice on Netflix" which clearly indicates it is not exploring unexplored places.
Well, there's a big difference between going to the same Chinese restaurant for the umpteenth time and picking the last dish on the menu you haven't tried, or switching to a Pakistani restaurant that offers a completely new cuisine.

DtC is the first.
Maybe DtC should do some affirmative action for genre films that have not been contaminated with auteur blood? :P
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#144

Post by Onderhond »

You've lost me I'm afraid.
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#145

Post by hurluberlu »

Onderhond wrote: February 17th, 2021, 10:08 pm
Dolwphin wrote: February 17th, 2021, 10:02 pm I asked a few people down at the super-market and they concurred that DtC is too familiar and well known fare. One customer said: "I have already seen all the films on the list twice on Netflix" which clearly indicates it is not exploring unexplored places.
Well, there's a big difference between going to the same Chinese restaurant for the umpteenth time and picking the last dish on the menu you haven't tried, or switching to a Pakistani restaurant that offers a completely new cuisine.

DtC is the first.
Good analogy... which for me works totally the other way around: genre cinema is the same local, small specialised restaurant that can only offer so many variations, DtC is the world.
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#146

Post by Melvelet »

When is the nomination process expected to start?
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#147

Post by Angel Glez »

Melvelet wrote: February 21st, 2021, 8:39 am When is the nomination process expected to start?
Anytime soon, although some work still needs to be done (I think there is no imdb lists for TSPDT's 1001-2000 or 21st Century yet).
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#148

Post by beavis »

With TSPDT's 1001-2000 under consideration this time, maybe the holdovers and revotes need to be checked for duplications there too...
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#149

Post by sol »

Angel Glez wrote: February 21st, 2021, 11:30 am
Melvelet wrote: February 21st, 2021, 8:39 am When is the nomination process expected to start?
Anytime soon, although some work still needs to be done (I think there is no imdb lists for TSPDT's 1001-2000 or 21st Century yet).
:thumbsup:

Once again, we also have an Official DTC Nominees Challenge in April, so it would great if the closing date for write-in votes is April 30 if possible. Or later.
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#150

Post by Angel Glez »

beavis wrote: February 21st, 2021, 11:41 am With TSPDT's 1001-2000 under consideration this time, maybe the holdovers and revotes need to be checked for duplications there too...
Yep. Doublers with technical skills can surely get an extra nomination by giving assistance to the host...
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#151

Post by 72aicm »

beavis wrote: February 21st, 2021, 11:41 am With TSPDT's 1001-2000 under consideration this time, maybe the holdovers and revotes need to be checked for duplications there too...
Incompreso (Vita col figlio) (1966) is the only TSPDT 1-2000 on this list.

(But I’m stupid so there is a chance that I exluded 1001-2000 titles when I made that list. Titles that might have fallen out on the recent update). I’ll check when I get home later.
Last edited by 72aicm on February 21st, 2021, 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#152

Post by Melvelet »

Had the 1001-2000 titles already been filtered? Oo
(in which case the revotes should probably re-generated)
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#153

Post by beavis »

72aicm wrote: February 21st, 2021, 1:03 pm
beavis wrote: February 21st, 2021, 11:41 am With TSPDT's 1001-2000 under consideration this time, maybe the holdovers and revotes need to be checked for duplications there too...
Incompreso (Vita col figlio) (1966) is the only TSPDT 1-2000 on this list.

(But I’m stupid so there is a chance that I exluded 1001-2000 titles when I made that list. Titles that might have fallen out on the recent update). I’ll check when I get home later.
When you made the list, the current version of the 1001-2000 didn't exist yet I think
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#154

Post by Melvelet »

Yes, that's the problem: Maybe revotes were excluded for being in the old TSPDT2000 list but now they fell out with the new version (which means they would be eligible revotes again)
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#155

Post by 72aicm »

Checked now. Eight titles added to the DtC 2021 revotes and holdover list. One removed. I have added them to the bottom of the list, but will place them correctly later this evening. :)

Added:
Banditi a Orgosolo (1961)
Il generale Della Rovere (1959)
Io la conoscevo bene (1965)
Kôshikei (1968)
La coquille et le clergyman (1928)
La tía Tula (1964)
Ruby Gentry (1952)
The Man Who Laughs (1928)

Removed:
Incompreso (Vita col figlio) (1966)
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