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Doubling the Canon 2020 Update - Results

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Re: Doubling the Canon 2020 Update - Results

#681

Post by Angel Glez » May 12th, 2020, 3:51 pm

DtC 2020 Results, part 23

TitleYearDirectorsURLNominatorRATINGVOTES
The King of Kings1927Cecil B. DeMille:imdb:Opio2,7618
The King of Kong2007Seth Gordon:imdb:TSPDT3,9541Image
The Last Command1928Josef von Sternberg:imdb:DtC 20154,2054Image
The Last Days1998James Moll:imdb:dirty_score2,336
The Last Days of Disco1998Whit Stillman:imdb:Silga3,4830
The Last Flight1931William Dieterle:imdb:DtC 20194,007:repeat:
The Last Hurrah1958John Ford:imdb:weirdboy3,4417
The Lathe of Heaven1980Fred Barzyk, David R. Loxton:imdb:mathiasa3,9011
The Lavender Hill Mob1951Charles Crichton:imdb:DtC 20153,6050
The Leaden Echo and the Golden Echo1955Margaret Tait:imdb:rnilsson193,1522
The League of Gentlemen1960Basil Dearden:imdb:AB5372,7022
The Life of Reilly2006Frank L. Anderson, Barry Poltermann:imdb:davidsietsma4,001
The Limey1999Steven Soderbergh:imdb:perceval3,2945
The Limit of Sleeping Beauty2017Ken Ninomiya:imdb:Onderhond3,673
The Limits of Control2009Jim Jarmusch:imdb:TSPDT3,1334
The Lion in Winter1968Anthony Harvey:imdb:beasterne3,6145
The Long Good Friday1980John Mackenzie:imdb:DtC 20153,9054
The Long Memory1953Robert Hamer:imdb:frbrown3,6710
The Long Voyage Home1940John Ford:imdb:grabmymask3,4135
The Mafu Cage1978Karen Arthur:imdb:matthewscott84,333
The Man from Laramie1955Anthony Mann:imdb:AB5373,8044
The Man from Snowy River1982George Miller:imdb:davidsietsma2,2219
The Man in the White Suit1951Alexander Mackendrick:imdb:DtC 20153,5650
The Mark of Zorro1940Rouben Mamoulian:imdb:AB5373,4323
The Mist2007Frank Darabont:imdb:TSPDT2,6452
The Mortal Storm1940Frank Borzage:imdb:AB5373,5637
The Mule2018Clint Eastwood:imdb:MovieGuide12,8224
The Muppet Movie1979James Frawley:imdb:zzzorf2,7632
The Mystery of the Leaping Fish1916John Emerson:imdb:weirdboy2,4832
The Naked Dawn1955Edgar G. Ulmer:imdb:PGonzalez3,9524Image
The Naked Kiss1964Samuel Fuller:imdb:Silga3,7659
The Nightmare Before Christmas1993Henry Selick:imdb:TSPDT3,2874
The Nines2007John August:imdb:Jimi Antiloop2,005
The Old Man and the Sea1999Aleksandr Petrov:imdb:DtC 20153,6642
The Passionate Friends1949David Lean:imdb:OldAle13,6914
The Phantom of the Opera1925Rupert Julian, Ernst Laemmle, Lon Chaney, Edward Sedgwick:imdb:klaus783,4455
The Pirate1948Vincente Minnelli:imdb:ofrene3,8920
The Plague Dogs1982Martin Rosen:imdb:jal903,6525
The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie1969Ronald Neame:imdb:DtC 20153,7126
The Pumpkin Eater1964Jack Clayton:imdb:matthewscott83,1725
The Queen of Spades1949Thorold Dickinson:imdb:Mauries2,9733
The Quiet Room1996Rolf de Heer:imdb:sol4,009Image
The Red Thread1994Carl Brown:imdb:DtC 20193,676
The Reflecting Skin1990Philip Ridley:imdb:Silga3,0425
The Roaring Twenties1939Raoul Walsh:imdb:DtC 20153,9851Image
The Rocket2013Kim Mordaunt:imdb:filmbantha3,717
The Secret Garden1988Philip S. Solomon:imdb:grabmymask4,1713Image
The Secret of Kells2009Nora Twomey, Tomm Moore:imdb:beasterne3,4137
The Seventh Victim1943Mark Robson:imdb:DtC 20153,5558
The Seventh Walk2013Amit Dutta:imdb:ggrenster3,437

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#682

Post by sol » May 12th, 2020, 3:56 pm

Angel Glez wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 3:51 pm
The Quiet Room1996Rolf de Heer:imdb:sol4,009Image
(D:)

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Now, what does 72a know that I don't know? :think:
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
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#683

Post by mightysparks » May 12th, 2020, 3:57 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 3:36 pm
mightysparks wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 3:29 pm
Melvelet wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 3:23 pm

I'm not sure if the outcome of a poll like this one should be +1 to a selection of movies instead of an interesting list on its own. And the cinephile-generated instead of critics-generated recommendations issue also isn't solved by this :D
I’ve seen 5000+ films and a bunch of Ozu and I still haven’t found the list for me (aside from TSZDT of course :whistling: )
And I've seen almost 11,000 films and over 20 from Ozu, and I have dozens of lists - official and non - that I find valuable and wonderful. I remain a glass-half-full guy, when it comes to movies, as much now as I ever have been.

Maybe it all boils down to how hard one is to please, and how specific/narrow one's interests are. My biggest problem on a regular basis is narrowing down the literally thousands of films I really want to watch to the one that I'm going to see right now. You and a lot of others here seem to have exactly the opposite problem.
Not really, I have thousands of films I want to see and every list is interesting to me.. I’m just hard to please in general, with everything, and I usually only like about 1/3 or 1/4 of a list. Idk why I’m so hard to please, everyone seems to think I’m negative about film but I love the experience of film and I go into everything openly with few expectations.. it’s just rare that anything hits my sweet spot. It’s frustrating, but that’s how I’ve always been.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

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#684

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » May 12th, 2020, 4:14 pm

Minnelli's rich and imaginative 'The Pirate' was so close. I rewatched it last month and appreciated a whole lot more how it takes the MGM musical into such surreal and entertaining waters.

Carl Brown's 'The Red Thread' is one that has interested me for ages. 3.67 from 6 votes has it poised for future success. Hope I can see it sometime soon.

And, yay for sol getting one of his treasured de Heers onto the list!
Last edited by RogerTheMovieManiac88 on May 16th, 2020, 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's all, folks!

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#685

Post by mjf314 » May 12th, 2020, 4:19 pm

Melvelet wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:57 pm
Where do I go if I haven't seen 5000 movies or the equivalent of 16 Ozu movies yet? Once you gave me lists for this but now you watched more movies yourself and look for deeper hidden stuff. Yes, there's the TSPDT Part 2 list but I'd like to have a (prefereably quite heterogenous, with regards to countries/release dates/directors) cinephile look on what's beyond the canon, too.
I agree, it would be nice to have a good cinephile list (i.e. a general list, not just a hidden gems list). I don't think the cinephile consensus is well represented on iCM yet.

You might like these lists. These are based on average ratings, and more cinephile-y than the IMDb top 250.
Letterboxd (top 250, but you can see more on this page)
RateYourMusic (top 1000, but you can see the top 5000 by manually changing the URL)
Mubi (top 1000)

There's also the iCM Forum's Top 1000 Highest Rated Feature Films, but I think it hasn't been updated recently.

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#686

Post by 72aicm » May 12th, 2020, 4:24 pm

sol wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 3:56 pm
Now, what does 72a know that I don't know? :think:
I just understand this game better than you. :shrug:
0/9 so far for me, so I’m obviously joking.

I’m glad that you nominated it. Been on my watchlist for ever and last months challenge and this game was a good excuse to finally see it. Rated it 8.5 and gave it a 5, so not quite a favourite, but I’m really pleased to see that it made the list.

Is it Epsilon’s turn next year? :lol:

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#687

Post by Ebbywebby » May 12th, 2020, 7:13 pm

Jeez...all the major classics that didn't make the cut, but "The King of Kong" does? I mean, it's a fun little doc, but....

I'm not sure if I had heard of "The Fall" (Peter Whitehead, 1969) before -- that sounds like something I should see.

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#688

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » May 12th, 2020, 7:22 pm

'The King of Kong' making it did make me chuckle. Bit of a left-field success. I haven't seen it myself though.
That's all, folks!

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#689

Post by OldAle1 » May 12th, 2020, 7:26 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:13 pm
Jeez...all the major classics that didn't make the cut, but "The King of Kong" does? I mean, it's a fun little doc, but....

I'm not sure if I had heard of "The Fall" (Peter Whitehead, 1969) before -- that sounds like something I should see.
This doesn't seem to be a list that rewards nostalgia very much, which is what that film seems to be promising, to me at least (haven't seen it, but grew up in the video arcade era, and certainly played that game more than once at Aladdin's Castle and other long-gone palaces of coin-ops). Does seem like an odd winner; I think this is probably a case where there just aren't that many haters, because those who might think it mediocre or worse just haven't bothered to see it. Strange with a more recent and well-known item but that's what makes this list interesting.

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#690

Post by Angel Glez » May 12th, 2020, 8:03 pm

DtC 2020 Results, part 24

TitleYearDirectorsURLNominatorRATINGVOTES
The Silent Partner1978Daryl Duke:imdb:zhangalan3,7328
The Small World of Sammy Lee1963Ken Hughes:imdb:boss05063,504
The Smiling Lieutenant1931Ernst Lubitsch:imdb:DtC 20153,6232
The Spieler1928Tay Garnett:imdb:jdidaco4,502
The Spiral Staircase1946Robert Siodmak:imdb:matthewscott83,7247
The Spirit of Dark and Lonely Water1973Jeff Grant:imdb:sebby2,4522
The Story of Dr. Wassell1944Cecil B. DeMille:imdb:DtC 20193,888
The Straight Story1999David Lynch:imdb:TSPDT4,3665Image
The Student Prince in Old Heidelberg1927Ernst Lubitsch, John M. Stahl:imdb:Lobo López3,6528
The Suicide1978Todd Haynes:imdb:Nathan Treadway3,388
The Swimmer1968Sydney Pollack, Frank Perry:imdb:DtC 20154,2060Image
The Taking of Pelham One Two Three1974Joseph Sargent:imdb:DtC 20153,4346
The Tarnished Angels1957Douglas Sirk:imdb:TSPDT3,8442
The Tell-Tale Heart1953Ted Parmelee:imdb:ChrisReynolds2,9852
The Ten Commandments1956Cecil B. DeMille:imdb:TSPDT3,1848
The Three Must-Get-Theres1922Max Linder:imdb:DtC 20152,5318
The Transfiguration2016Michael O'Shea:imdb:Daviddoes2,789
The True Cost2015Andrew Morgan:imdb:Jimi Antiloop3,002
The Unknown1927Tod Browning:imdb:TSPDT3,6862
The Verdict1982Sidney Lumet:imdb:TSPDT3,6852
The Vietnam War2017:imdb:toromash4,1812Image
The Vikings1958Richard Fleischer:imdb:cinephage3,2827
The Visitation2002Nathaniel Dorsky:imdb:matthewscott84,333
The Wanderers1979Philip Kaufman:imdb:zzzorf2,9625
The War Game1966Peter Watkins:imdb:Panunzio3,9057Image
The Woman in the Window1944Fritz Lang:imdb:DtC 20153,9457Image
The Wonderful Country1959Robert Parrish:imdb:flip3,3615
The Work2017Jairus McLeary, Gethin Aldous:imdb:DtC 20194,297:repeat:
The Wrong Man1956Alfred Hitchcock:imdb:Lobo López3,7562
The Wrong Trousers1993Nick Park:imdb:ChrisReynolds3,8263
Theeviravaathi: The Terrorist1998Santosh Sivan:imdb:weirdboy2,388
There's Always Tomorrow1955Douglas Sirk:imdb:DtC 20154,2239Image
Thérèse1986Alain Cavalier:imdb:Opio2,8514
Thérèse Raquin1953Marcel Carné:imdb:filmbantha3,6723
They Drive by Night1940Raoul Walsh:imdb:Silga3,6834
This Sporting Life1963Lindsay Anderson:imdb:Panunzio3,4542
This World, Then the Fireworks1997Michael Oblowitz:imdb:Carmel13793,0019
Threads1984Mick Jackson:imdb:ChrisReynolds3,9124Image
Threnody2004Nathaniel Dorsky:imdb:Mothravka4,504
Thriller - en grym film1973Bo Arne Vibenius:imdb:AssonFire2,2220
Through an Open Window1992Eric Mendelsohn:imdb:Opio5,002
Thru the Mirror1936David Hand:imdb:RogerTheMovieManiac883,0826
Thunder Road2018Jim Cummings:imdb:Daviddoes3,3114
Tiger in the Smoke1956Roy Ward Baker:imdb:frbrown3,005
Tikhie stranitsy1994Aleksandr Sokurov:imdb:Dolwphin2,7932
Time Indefinite1993Ross McElwee:imdb:Mauries4,2115Image
Timecode2000Mike Figgis:imdb:TSPDT2,6415
Times Square1980Allan Moyle:imdb:MrCarmady3,8011
Tma/Svetlo/Tma1989Jan Svankmajer:imdb:jvv3,7354
To Die For1995Gus Van Sant:imdb:Jimi Antiloop2,9846

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#691

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » May 12th, 2020, 8:27 pm

Great scores - with high vote counts - by 'The Swimmer' and 'There's Always Tomorrow'.

The latter remains unseen by me but the former is, I think, one of the great American films of the '60s. Wonderful to see it do so well!
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#692

Post by Ebbywebby » May 12th, 2020, 8:28 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:26 pm
Ebbywebby wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:13 pm
Jeez...all the major classics that didn't make the cut, but "The King of Kong" does? I mean, it's a fun little doc, but....

I'm not sure if I had heard of "The Fall" (Peter Whitehead, 1969) before -- that sounds like something I should see.
This doesn't seem to be a list that rewards nostalgia very much, which is what that film seems to be promising, to me at least (haven't seen it, but grew up in the video arcade era, and certainly played that game more than once at Aladdin's Castle and other long-gone palaces of coin-ops). Does seem like an odd winner; I think this is probably a case where there just aren't that many haters, because those who might think it mediocre or worse just haven't bothered to see it. Strange with a more recent and well-known item but that's what makes this list interesting.
Incidentally, I'm amazed that this film has over 9,600 checks.

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#693

Post by OldAle1 » May 12th, 2020, 8:38 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:27 pm
Great scores - with high vote counts - by 'The Swimmer' and 'There's Always Tomorrow'.

The latter remains unseen by me but the former is, I think, one of the great American films of the '60s. Wonderful to see it do so well!
Both pretty terrific films - not quite GREAT for me, and I think I probably gave them both 4s. But both in need of re-viewing for sure, especially the Sirk. One thing I remember really noticing is a clear influence on The Bridges of Madison County, in a couple of particular scenes. I just love the concept in The Swimmer and I think it's a pretty remarkable film given how simple the basic idea is - and how cinematic it manages to be.

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#694

Post by OldAle1 » May 12th, 2020, 8:40 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:28 pm
OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:26 pm
Ebbywebby wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:13 pm
Jeez...all the major classics that didn't make the cut, but "The King of Kong" does? I mean, it's a fun little doc, but....

I'm not sure if I had heard of "The Fall" (Peter Whitehead, 1969) before -- that sounds like something I should see.
This doesn't seem to be a list that rewards nostalgia very much, which is what that film seems to be promising, to me at least (haven't seen it, but grew up in the video arcade era, and certainly played that game more than once at Aladdin's Castle and other long-gone palaces of coin-ops). Does seem like an odd winner; I think this is probably a case where there just aren't that many haters, because those who might think it mediocre or worse just haven't bothered to see it. Strange with a more recent and well-known item but that's what makes this list interesting.
Incidentally, I'm amazed that this film has over 9,600 checks.
Yeah that's video game nostalgia I guess. And people love the competitive aspects I imagine. Now I'm interested, maybe I'll put this on the front burner. Haven't played a video game in an awful, awful long time myself but I think about it sometimes, and a lot more since the lockdown began.

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#695

Post by jeff_v » May 12th, 2020, 8:45 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:26 pm
This doesn't seem to be a list that rewards nostalgia very much, which is what that film seems to be promising, to me at least (haven't seen it, but grew up in the video arcade era, and certainly played that game more than once at Aladdin's Castle and other long-gone palaces of coin-ops). Does seem like an odd winner; I think this is probably a case where there just aren't that many haters, because those who might think it mediocre or worse just haven't bothered to see it. Strange with a more recent and well-known item but that's what makes this list interesting.
How old am I? I worked at Aladdin's Castle, you snot-nosed little punk. I probably had to unjam the coin return for you.

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#696

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » May 12th, 2020, 8:51 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:38 pm
RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:27 pm
Great scores - with high vote counts - by 'The Swimmer' and 'There's Always Tomorrow'.

The latter remains unseen by me but the former is, I think, one of the great American films of the '60s. Wonderful to see it do so well!
Both pretty terrific films - not quite GREAT for me, and I think I probably gave them both 4s. But both in need of re-viewing for sure, especially the Sirk. One thing I remember really noticing is a clear influence on The Bridges of Madison County, in a couple of particular scenes. I just love the concept in The Swimmer and I think it's a pretty remarkable film given how simple the basic idea is - and how cinematic it manages to be.
Well, I love Eastwood's film almost as much as you do so I'll have to check out the Sirk.

I love the encounters and the texture and vividness to the examinations of social disconnection and identity in 'The Swimmer'. It feels a very honest and concerned film to me. There's a maturity and a complexity to it that drew me right in and a cutting poignancy to its observations that delves deep into the psyches and perceptions of this array of individuals. Very cinematic as well of course. That is another strength. It got a 6 from me!
That's all, folks!

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#697

Post by OldAle1 » May 12th, 2020, 9:12 pm

jeff_v wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:45 pm
OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:26 pm
This doesn't seem to be a list that rewards nostalgia very much, which is what that film seems to be promising, to me at least (haven't seen it, but grew up in the video arcade era, and certainly played that game more than once at Aladdin's Castle and other long-gone palaces of coin-ops). Does seem like an odd winner; I think this is probably a case where there just aren't that many haters, because those who might think it mediocre or worse just haven't bothered to see it. Strange with a more recent and well-known item but that's what makes this list interesting.
How old am I? I worked at Aladdin's Castle, you snot-nosed little punk. I probably had to unjam the coin return for you.
Heh. In my heyday of playing games I was in high school or even in college, and most of the people working there were at most 5 years older than me; some were probably younger.

Glad someone else at least remembers the name, let alone a former employee (like wow dude did you get to play all the games for free, that would be such a sweeettt job!). I googled them once and there was surprisingly little info - they don't even have a Wikipedia page. Just goes to show how stuff that was around before the internet fades from the public consciousness, and from internet history.

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#698

Post by AB537 » May 12th, 2020, 9:19 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:51 pm
OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:38 pm
RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:27 pm
Great scores - with high vote counts - by 'The Swimmer' and 'There's Always Tomorrow'.

The latter remains unseen by me but the former is, I think, one of the great American films of the '60s. Wonderful to see it do so well!
Both pretty terrific films - not quite GREAT for me, and I think I probably gave them both 4s. But both in need of re-viewing for sure, especially the Sirk. One thing I remember really noticing is a clear influence on The Bridges of Madison County, in a couple of particular scenes. I just love the concept in The Swimmer and I think it's a pretty remarkable film given how simple the basic idea is - and how cinematic it manages to be.
Well, I love Eastwood's film almost as much as you do so I'll have to check out the Sirk.

I love the encounters and the texture and vividness to the examinations of social disconnection and identity in 'The Swimmer'. It feels a very honest and concerned film to me. There's a maturity and a complexity to it that drew me right in and a cutting poignancy to its observations that delves deep into the psyches and perceptions of this array of individuals. Very cinematic as well of course. That is another strength. It got a 6 from me!
I'm also very happy to see both of these do well. I loved The Swimmer when I saw it, and will probably rewatch it sooner or later. I saw and really enjoyed There's Always Tomorrow during the challenge/voting period - had been looking for it for a while and TCM helpfully aired it during April. I don't have an opinion on whether it influences The Bridges of Madison County, but prefer Sirk's film to Eastwood's (which is fine for me but nothing special).

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#699

Post by jeff_v » May 12th, 2020, 9:44 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 9:12 pm
Heh. In my heyday of playing games I was in high school or even in college, and most of the people working there were at most 5 years older than me; some were probably younger.

Glad someone else at least remembers the name, let alone a former employee (like wow dude did you get to play all the games for free, that would be such a sweeettt job!). I googled them once and there was surprisingly little info - they don't even have a Wikipedia page. Just goes to show how stuff that was around before the internet fades from the public consciousness, and from internet history.
Not to get too far off-topic, but not only did I get free games, but I had a nice side-economy going where I'd trade free games for tacos/burgers from people who worked in the food court. Didn't have to buy lunch for an entire Summer.

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#700

Post by cayado-coro » May 12th, 2020, 9:58 pm

3,88 for Dr. Wassell? Come on! A DeMille, Angel, for heaven's sake! I trusted you.

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#701

Post by OldAle1 » May 12th, 2020, 10:01 pm

cayado-coro wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 9:58 pm
3,88 for Dr. Wassell? Come on! A DeMille, Angel, for heaven's sake! I trusted you.
Seems an astonishingly high rating for any DeMille to me :lol: but then I haven't seen that one, maybe it will turn out to be his masterpiece.

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#702

Post by AB537 » May 12th, 2020, 10:33 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:02 pm
AB537 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 12:56 pm
mjf314 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 12:37 pm


According to the first post, a rating of 2 means "it's a good movie", but not everyone takes that literally. Different people rate on different scales.

If a lot of films are dropping, it doesn't mean that the new voters hate films. Maybe they're just rating on a different scale.
I doubt you'd find two voters in this poll who use the exact same system to rate films on the 0-6 scale. And based on the way people seem to rate in the poll, if you take the scale description at face value, it seems unlikely to me that you'd have any but a small number of films that could meet any reasonable threshold for inclusion. Seems like everything that's even reasonably widely seen has some pretty determined detractors around here - and usually enough to sink the film's chances of inclusion, even if it has fairly broad appeal. Which makes me concerned that the majority of the final product is largely inaccessible to most film enthusiasts, at least not without considerable effort ... and I doubt that issue will improve after the TSPDT 1001-2000 entries are dropped next year ...
It's tricky because some people are canonical in their views, you will find Battleship Potemkin and Tokyo Story etc in their list no matter what, simply on the basis of whether or not theyve watched them. They may value thingw like iconicity and shared experience (they can talk to other people about them, they like seeing them with a group of culturally similar people), twist endings and more objective measures of a film's quality (production values). Those people then aren't going to go for the Filipino street film made on an iPhone with no professional actors. Then some people like myself might value otherness, subversiveness, subjective/personal emotional impact, ambitiousness, and more diverse types of narrative structures and emotional levers (e.g. not insisting on a happy ending). So for people like me yeah, fuck the courtroom drama with the apple pie and white picket fence tinges where right wins out as a jury is gradually persuaded, and can I please have "scenes from a parallel life", that is a load of ballsy female pirates powerplaying on a Breton island and there's meta-narrative elements, surreality, and pregnant suggestiveness. No-one who hates film is hanging around on this site 24/7, cept praps maybe Cipp.

So for me I would go through that TSPDT list like a wrecking ball, but for some people it bears a lot of similarity to their own personal top list.

I have to say though that on some sort of objective level, the part of the TSPDT nominator activity, that autonominates films that have fallen off the 21st century list, is really broken, I mean it's pouring shit films onto the ballot, and I think wherever people are coming from re: the above discussion, we'd probably agree on that.

Another issue is that, to my knowledge KG membership isn't something that film critics have, so for sure we're seeing films they never have. Which is one of the joys of this process.
For me, it's a tough balance to strike. On one hand, it sounds like I probably enjoy the TSPDT lists, on average, more than you - and possibly than a lot of others on ICM, although my personal lists would diverge considerably from the annual products published there. In my view, the really weak nominees from TSPDT are generally those that dropped off the 21st century list, although there's usually a few films I like that drop from that list each year. I'm glad TSPDT expanded the 21st century project from 250 to 1000 a few years ago, but for DtC it does introduce problems with the 21st century content, by taking out a bunch of films that could be strong contenders, and also by providing us with a stream of crap to vote down each year (3 of my 4 "0" ratings this year were TSPDT nominees, two of which were 21st century).

Of course, this forum brings together people with widely varying tastes, which makes it hard to find anything resembling consensus. No doubt we could all point to films whose results in the poll we strongly agree or disagree with, and all have a bunch of our own nominees we wish had made it - that's just part of the exercise, and it's totally fine. One of the benefits of the diversity of opinions and tastes is that it brings films to our attention that we'd otherwise be unaware of, or provides suggestions to help filter down the huge amount of content we all have access to. New members/voters further adds to the variety of suggestions, which is always welcome.

My main concern with the trend of the list, accelerated by this year's vote, is its impact on the accessibility of the list. In general, I think the significant divergence from TSPDT's 1001-2000 is a good thing, notwithstanding my positive comments about that list, for two reasons: 1. significant overlap would make this project redundant; 2. because TSPDT is an aggregator, it's relatively rare for new entries, especially in the all time lists, to be films I was totally unaware of previously - this year, only two films met this criterion. However, I'm a bit concerned (and to some degree frustrated) when the poll leads to a large-scale rejection of numerous incumbent films that tend to do well with critics, audiences, and even a good chunk of ICM voters, regardless of whether I've seen them. Several of these probably would have remained on the list but for 2 or 3 zero ratings out of a pool of a few dozen voters. Especially when many of the films entering the list are very obscure films with niche appeal, that I don't have the first clue how to find.

There may not be a good way to address the accessibility issue, but here a few suggestions that I hope will be received in the constructive spirit with which they're intended - I do greatly appreciate the time and effort Angel and others put into this project, and do enjoy the process of building the list (if perhaps a bit more than the results themselves):

1. Raise the minimum vote requirement, perhaps to 10 or 12
2. Drop the highest and lowest votes for each film, to achieve a slightly more balanced result
3. To the extent possible, encourage nominators of successful films and holdovers to publicize where the films can be found

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#703

Post by weirdboy » May 12th, 2020, 11:07 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:02 pm
Another issue is that, to my knowledge KG membership isn't something that film critics have, so for sure we're seeing films they never have. Which is one of the joys of this process.
I would not be so sure of that. I would rather suspect that they just keep their participation in such low key.

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#704

Post by OldAle1 » May 12th, 2020, 11:22 pm

AB537 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 10:33 pm


For me, it's a tough balance to strike. On one hand, it sounds like I probably enjoy the TSPDT lists, on average, more than you - and possibly than a lot of others on ICM, although my personal lists would diverge considerably from the annual products published there. In my view, the really weak nominees from TSPDT are generally those that dropped off the 21st century list, although there's usually a few films I like that drop from that list each year. I'm glad TSPDT expanded the 21st century project from 250 to 1000 a few years ago, but for DtC it does introduce problems with the 21st century content, by taking out a bunch of films that could be strong contenders, and also by providing us with a stream of crap to vote down each year (3 of my 4 "0" ratings this year were TSPDT nominees, two of which were 21st century).

Of course, this forum brings together people with widely varying tastes, which makes it hard to find anything resembling consensus. No doubt we could all point to films whose results in the poll we strongly agree or disagree with, and all have a bunch of our own nominees we wish had made it - that's just part of the exercise, and it's totally fine. One of the benefits of the diversity of opinions and tastes is that it brings films to our attention that we'd otherwise be unaware of, or provides suggestions to help filter down the huge amount of content we all have access to. New members/voters further adds to the variety of suggestions, which is always welcome.

My main concern with the trend of the list, accelerated by this year's vote, is its impact on the accessibility of the list. In general, I think the significant divergence from TSPDT's 1001-2000 is a good thing, notwithstanding my positive comments about that list, for two reasons: 1. significant overlap would make this project redundant; 2. because TSPDT is an aggregator, it's relatively rare for new entries, especially in the all time lists, to be films I was totally unaware of previously - this year, only two films met this criterion. However, I'm a bit concerned (and to some degree frustrated) when the poll leads to a large-scale rejection of numerous incumbent films that tend to do well with critics, audiences, and even a good chunk of ICM voters, regardless of whether I've seen them. Several of these probably would have remained on the list but for 2 or 3 zero ratings out of a pool of a few dozen voters. Especially when many of the films entering the list are very obscure films with niche appeal, that I don't have the first clue how to find.

There may not be a good way to address the accessibility issue, but here a few suggestions that I hope will be received in the constructive spirit with which they're intended - I do greatly appreciate the time and effort Angel and others put into this project, and do enjoy the process of building the list (if perhaps a bit more than the results themselves):

1. Raise the minimum vote requirement, perhaps to 10 or 12
2. Drop the highest and lowest votes for each film, to achieve a slightly more balanced result
3. To the extent possible, encourage nominators of successful films and holdovers to publicize where the films can be found
I like a lot of this post, and your first paragraph also describes me and my feelings about TSPDT almost exactly. I like matthew's post that you quote also, and I can definitely see where he's coming from - or even someone like Onderhond, whose taste is probably farther from mine than anybody else's on this forum. Sometimes I wish I could "throw out" the canon as matthew sort of implies he would, but I grew up on this stuff, it's how I came to film, and my taste was shaped more by Rosenbaum, other pro critics, and friends who were, like me, acolytes of those critics. So the TSP "model" works for me.

But yeah, the accessibility thing. It's one thing if it's just a list for this forum, it's another if it's out there for the world (well, the world of icheckmovies, which is still not enormous but certainly much bigger than this forum) to see and it's got dozens of films with 0-10 checks that cannot be found except on invitation-only sites - if that. One of my picks this time was a film I saw in the cinema last year which AFAIK can't be found online; in some ways I'm relieved that it only got 3 votes, had it gotten in it'd be a case of saying "well, tough shit, wait for it to come to a town near you". And that is totally fine on critics' lists that have a few lost silent films or whatever - but on a list that we're making, today, in 2020, I don't know that it sends the right message. Obscure is fine - impossible to get unless you're a special, privileged person or happen to live in a particular place is not so fine.

Your last three suggestions are all good; I think the promotion of films in the challenge is a good idea but there should probably be other ways to do it as well, like encouraging people to post valid YT links and such, particularly when the film isn't that easy to google.

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#705

Post by funkybusiness » May 12th, 2020, 11:48 pm

weirdboy wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 11:07 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:02 pm
Another issue is that, to my knowledge KG membership isn't something that film critics have, so for sure we're seeing films they never have. Which is one of the joys of this process.
I would not be so sure of that. I would rather suspect that they just keep their participation in such low key.
I know of at least a few who are on there.

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#706

Post by St. Gloede » May 13th, 2020, 7:50 am

2.85 for Thérèse?! Shocking result for such a beautiful film.

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#707

Post by Angel Glez » May 13th, 2020, 8:04 am

DtC 2020 Results, part 25

TitleYearDirectorsURLNominatorRATINGVOTES
To potami1960Nikos Koundouros:imdb:joachimt4,006
Tobenai chinmoku1966Kazuo Kuroki:imdb:DtC 20154,0425Image
Todo modo1976Elio Petri:imdb:Ivan07162,836
Todos a la cárcel1993Luis García Berlanga:imdb:PeacefulAnarchy3,3011
Tôkyô orinpikku1965Kon Ichikawa:imdb:PeacefulAnarchy3,2225
Tôkyô sensô sengo hiwa1970Nagisa Ôshima:imdb:DtC 20153,6022
Too Late for Tears1949Byron Haskin:imdb:ChrisReynolds3,4735
Topos1985Antouanetta Angelidi:imdb:DtC 20154,1011Image
Tore tanzt2013Katrin Gebbe:imdb:nimimerkillinen2,754
Tou ze2011Ann Hui:imdb:toromash3,3936
Tout un hiver sans feu2004Greg Zglinski:imdb:Smoover4,754:repeat:
Trading Places1983John Landis:imdb:davidsietsma3,0450
Trash Humpers2009Harmony Korine:imdb:TSPDT2,3817
Trás-os-Montes1976António Reis, Margarida Cordeiro:imdb:DtC 20153,6317
Trees of Syntax, Leaves of Axis2009Daïchi Saïto:imdb:Dolwphin4,0019Image
Treno popolare1933Raffaello Matarazzo:imdb:DtC 20153,7219
Trial1955Mark Robson:imdb:sol3,004
Trois chambres à Manhattan1965Marcel Carné:imdb:mathiasa2,388
Trouble the Water2008Carl Deal, Tia Lessin:imdb:TSPDT2,504
T's World: The Over Identification of Terry Thompson2013Ramon Bloomberg:imdb:72aicm5,333:repeat:
Tsuma to shite onna to shite1961Mikio Naruse:imdb:jal903,449
Tsumiki no ie2008Kunio Kato:imdb:jvv3,3357
Tulevaisuus ei ole entisensä2002Mika Taanila:imdb:DtC 20194,605:repeat:
Tulipunainen kyyhkynen1961Matti Kassila:imdb:frbrown3,007
Turksib1929Victor A. Turin:imdb:DtC 20153,7030
Turumba1981Kidlat Tahimik:imdb:Wille4,8212Image
Työmiehen päiväkirja1967Risto Jarva:imdb:Wille3,679
U.S.S.1970Alain Montesse:imdb:DtC 20194,333
Ucieczka z kina 'Wolnosc'1990Wojciech Marczewski:imdb:Smoover2,9213
Uçurtmayi Vurmasinlar1989Tunç Basaran:imdb:Angel Glez3,754
Udaan2010Vikramaditya Motwane:imdb:dirty_score2,437
Ulee's Gold1997Victor Nunez:imdb:boss05062,4716
Ulica Graniczna1948Aleksander Ford:imdb:DtC 20194,007:repeat:
Umfeld2007Scott Pagano:imdb:Onderhond2,805
Un certo giorno1968Ermanno Olmi:imdb:karldaniel3,506
Un homme de têtes1898Georges Méliès:imdb:jvv3,5354
Un homme et une femme1966Claude Lelouch:imdb:hurluberlu3,2230
Un homme marche dans la ville1950Marcello Pagliero:imdb:DtC 20194,754:repeat:
Un jeu brutal1983Jean-Claude Brisseau:imdb:boss05064,4410Image
Un singe en hiver1962Henri Verneuil:imdb:sortile9io3,6710
Una giornata particolare1977Ettore Scola:imdb:DtC 20153,9850Image
Una pura formalità1994Giuseppe Tornatore:imdb:Gordon_Gekko3,3522
Unagi1997Shôhei Imamura:imdb:DtC 20153,7025
Undergångens arkitektur1989Peter Cohen:imdb:zhangalan3,6710
Une femme est une femme1961Jean-Luc Godard:imdb:TSPDT4,2056Image
Une vie ailleurs2017Olivier Peyon:imdb:RogerTheMovieManiac884,502
Unter den Brücken1946Helmut Käutner:imdb:DtC 20154,3140Image
Uppehåll i myrlandet1965Jan Troell:imdb:Labraxas3,789
Uranium Hex1987Sandra Lahire:imdb:funkybusiness3,003
Urusei Yatsura 2: Byûtifuru dorîmâ1984Mamoru Oshii:imdb:matthewscott83,2027

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#708

Post by matthewscott8 » May 13th, 2020, 8:20 am

OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 11:22 pm
Your last three suggestions are all good; I think the promotion of films in the challenge is a good idea but there should probably be other ways to do it as well, like encouraging people to post valid YT links and such, particularly when the film isn't that easy to google.
fwiw all three of my successes, one new holdover, one old holdover that got enough votes this time and one that went straight in, are all publicly available. One on DVD and YouTube, one by paid file download from director's website and one on BluRay. I do think it's a good idea to tabulate all the holdovers and successful entries and put sources in though.

I did note on the 500<400 project that it was bizarrely hard to see the films in the top 10. There's a disincentive in that people are fond of that list and if they share the file it gets more checks and drops off the list.

The invite only website stuff is elitist, but largely exists to avoid destruction. Look what happened to SMz when a bad apple got in. I havent got any access to any of these sites anymore, although people are very helpful when I request stuff.

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#709

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » May 13th, 2020, 8:43 am

matthewscott8 wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 8:20 am
I did note on the 500<400 project that it was bizarrely hard to see the films in the top 10. There's a disincentive in that people are fond of that list and if they share the file it gets more checks and drops off the list.
I have never gotten that impression from anything on that list. People vote for those films because they like them and want them to be seen. I've never seen someone fret about a film getting too many checks to be on the list other than those who see films with 395+ checks in July and hope a film gets over 400.

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#710

Post by mauries » May 13th, 2020, 8:50 am

Three films straight in!

Het Oog Boven de Put 4.67 / 9
La Casa Lobo 4.06 / 17
Time Indefinite 4,21 / 15

Sad about Stage Door (3,89 / 39), but I guess I shouldn't complain :D

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#711

Post by mightysparks » May 13th, 2020, 8:55 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 8:43 am
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 8:20 am
I did note on the 500<400 project that it was bizarrely hard to see the films in the top 10. There's a disincentive in that people are fond of that list and if they share the file it gets more checks and drops off the list.
I have never gotten that impression from anything on that list. People vote for those films because they like them and want them to be seen. I've never seen someone fret about a film getting too many checks to be on the list other than those who see films with 395+ checks in July and hope a film gets over 400.
+1. People are always willing to share and shout about their favourites around here, and bribing others just to get another watch on their underseen films. Never felt like people are trying to hide them. I've seen all but one of the top 10 and I think I saw all of them before we even started the project :shrug:
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#712

Post by AdamH » May 13th, 2020, 9:09 am

Which films are bizarrely hard to see? If anyone asks for one of the films on here, they'll easily be able to see it. I've seen that list being compiled for seven years and never had that impression. :shrug: It's a list of films with <400 checks...they aren't always going to be as easy to find as other films but all are available people are more than happy for others to see them hence they vote for them in the first place. I wish more people would watch them and get them to 400 checks so they've been seen by more...isn't that the whole point of the list?

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#713

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » May 13th, 2020, 9:26 am

Everything in the top 10 except possibly Muddy River is on youtube.

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#714

Post by RBG » May 13th, 2020, 9:29 am

:cowbow: Hooray for naked dawn and Arthur Kennedy -- the best Irish Mexican since Anthony Quinn

That mubi 'top 1000' just makes me sad :(

Some of you remember polarisdib's toplist :rip:
icm + ltbxd

NO GODS NO MASTERS

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#715

Post by Angel Glez » May 13th, 2020, 10:06 am

OldAle1 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 10:01 pm
cayado-coro wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 9:58 pm
3,88 for Dr. Wassell? Come on! A DeMille, Angel, for heaven's sake! I trusted you.
Seems an astonishingly high rating for any DeMille to me :lol: but then I haven't seen that one, maybe it will turn out to be his masterpiece.
:lol: According to his most famous supporters (Lourcelles, Mourlet, Tavernier, the MacMahonists in general, Marías, Guarner, Sarris and company) or the accurate book-survey 'The Most Important and Misappreciated American Films Since the Beginning of the Cinema', Dr. Wassell was one of his finest, but not his masterpiece.
Seeing it so close I had planned to increase my rating from 5 to 6 (enough to make the list), just to piss off all DeMille haters :P but I'm just suffering the consequences of being so honest. :innocent:

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#716

Post by sol » May 13th, 2020, 10:14 am

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 4:14 pm
And, yay for sol getting one of his treasured de Heer's onto the list!
One day film fans everywhere will regard Rolf de Heer as one of Australia's greatest directors.

And one day iCM users will know that there is more to de Heer than just The Tracker and Bad Boy Bubby. :ph43r:
72aicm wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 4:24 pm
I’m glad that you nominated it. Been on my watchlist for ever and last months challenge and this game was a good excuse to finally see it. Rated it 8.5 and gave it a 5, so not quite a favourite, but I’m really pleased to see that it made the list.

Is it Epsilon’s turn next year? :lol:
Hey, I liked that one. :hmph: Next logical de Heer film to try to get into the canon would be Dingo, but I was less enthused with that than the other de Heers that I have been championing.
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
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#717

Post by Angel Glez » May 13th, 2020, 11:16 am

DtC 2020 Results, part 26 and final

TitleYearDirectorsURLNominatorRATINGVOTES
Uta1972Akio Jissôji:imdb:DtC 20153,9022Image
Utopia1983Sohrab Shahid Saless:imdb:Hawk3,437
Va, vis et deviens2005Radu Mihaileanu:imdb:DtC 20153,6412
Valahol Európában1948Géza von Radványi:imdb:DtC 20153,3316
Valurile Dunarii1960Liviu Ciulei:imdb:DtC 20194,205
Vámonos con Pancho Villa!1936Fernando de Fuentes:imdb:DtC 20152,8016
Vampire's Kiss1988Robert Bierman:imdb:MrCarmady2,9136
Variations1998Nathaniel Dorsky:imdb:perceval4,4512Image
Varieté1925Ewald André Dupont:imdb:klaus783,4038
Variola vera1982Goran Markovic:imdb:sol3,437
Vechir na Ivana Kupala1968Yuri Ilyenko:imdb:DtC 20153,6632
Velikiy uteshitel1933Lev Kuleshov:imdb:OldAle13,138
Ventriloquist Cat1950Tex Avery:imdb:frbrown2,5918
Verführung: Die grausame Frau1985Elfi Mikesch, Monika Treut:imdb:beavis4,205
Verlassen; Verloren; Einsam, Kalt1992Klaus Wyborny:imdb:DtC 20193,002
Vincent1982Tim Burton:imdb:ChrisReynolds3,2170
Visaaranai2015Vetrimaaran:imdb:DtC 20193,676
Visita ou Memórias e Confissões1993Manoel de Oliveira:imdb:PGonzalez3,6011
Vlyublyonnye1970Elyer Ishmukhamedov:imdb:Ivan07164,176:repeat:
Vormittagsspuk1928Hans Richter:imdb:jvv3,2357
Vox Lux2018Brady Corbet:imdb:Labraxas3,5414
Voyna i mir1966Sergey Bondarchuk:imdb:beasterne3,5924
Vratné lahve2007Jan Sverák:imdb:Angel Glez3,502
Vtáckovia, siroty a blázni1969Juraj Jakubisko:imdb:nimimerkillinen3,2328
Vynález zkázy1958Karel Zeman:imdb:DtC 20153,5236
Walk the Line2005James Mangold:imdb:TSPDT2,7153
Warrendale1967Allan King:imdb:DtC 20154,0732Image
Watchmen2009Zack Snyder:imdb:Silga2,9765
Water2005Deepa Mehta:imdb:TSPDT3,0618
Waterloo Bridge1940Mervyn LeRoy:imdb:DtC 20153,0522
Watership Down1978John Hubley, Martin Rosen:imdb:DtC 20153,8352
Way of a Gaucho1952Jacques Tourneur:imdb:DtC 20153,9418Image
Ways of Seeing1972:imdb:DtC 20194,336:repeat:
Wechma1971Hamid Benani:imdb:jdidaco2,673
Weiner2016Josh Kriegman, Elyse Steinberg:imdb:albajos3,7316
Wet Hot American Summer2001David Wain:imdb:TSPDT2,4737
What Goes Up2003Robert Breer:imdb:TSPDT1,7131
What Richard Did2012Lenny Abrahamson:imdb:filmbantha3,1011
What's Opera, Doc?1957Chuck Jones:imdb:ChrisReynolds3,6672
White Heart1975Daniel Barnett:imdb:karldaniel2,7312
Who Am I - Kein System ist sicher2014Baran bo Odar:imdb:Jimi Antiloop3,004
Who Framed Roger Rabbit1988Robert Zemeckis, Richard Williams:imdb:Gordon_Gekko3,6773
Wild River1960Elia Kazan:imdb:DtC 20153,9737Image
Winchester '731950Anthony Mann:imdb:DtC 20154,0764Image
Window Water Baby Moving1959Stan Brakhage:imdb:PeacefulAnarchy3,3759
Winifred Wagner und die Geschichte des Hauses Wahnfried von 1914-19751976Hans-Jürgen Syberberg:imdb:DtC 20195,333:repeat:
Witness for the Prosecution1957Billy Wilder:imdb:DtC 20154,0571Image
Woman They Almost Lynched1953Allan Dwan:imdb:DtC 20153,6412
Wonderland1999Michael Winterbottom:imdb:MrCarmady3,0013
Working Girls1986Lizzie Borden:imdb:sebby3,119
Workingman's Death2005Michael Glawogger:imdb:TSPDT3,8919
Wu yan de shan qiu1992Toon Wang:imdb:DtC 20194,176:repeat:
Wunder der Schöpfung1925Hanns Walter Kornblum:imdb:klaus783,449
Wutai jiemei1964Jin Xie:imdb:funkybusiness3,6716
Xiao shi da kan2011Hung-i Chen:imdb:Onderhond2,297
XIX saukunis qartuli qronika1979Aleksandre Rekhviashvili:imdb:DtC 20194,147:repeat:
Ya Private Sky2001Stom Sogo:imdb:Carmel13792,5617
Yami utsu shinzô1982Shunichi Nagasaki:imdb:Mothravka3,176
Yanco1961Servando González:imdb:DtC 20153,9228Image
Yang guang can lan de ri zi1994Wen Jiang:imdb:hurluberlu3,4430
Ye mei gui zhi lian1960Tian-Lin Wang:imdb:DtC 20153,7810
Yella2007Christian Petzold:imdb:Cocoa3,8313
Yeolnyeomun1962Sang-ok Shin:imdb:zhangalan3,504
Yin shi nan nu1994Ang Lee:imdb:zhangalan3,5731
YMO Propaganda1984Makoto Satô:imdb:funkybusiness5,001
Yoiyami semareba1969Akio Jissôji:imdb:joachimt4,0014Image
Yojôhan shinwa taikei2010:imdb:mjf3145,007:repeat:
Yoru wa mijikashi aruke yo otome2017Masaaki Yuasa:imdb:cayh4,1621Image
Youth2015Paolo Sorrentino:imdb:AssonFire3,3733
Yoyo1965Pierre Étaix:imdb:hurluberlu3,8346
Yume1990Akira Kurosawa, Ishirô Honda:imdb:TSPDT3,3442
Yume no ginga1997Gakuryû Ishii:imdb:DtC 20153,5629
Zacharovannaya Desna1964Yuliya Solntseva:imdb:OldAle13,6720
Zanjin zanbaken1929Daisuke Itô:imdb:ggrenster3,502
Závrat1963Karel Kachyna:imdb:joachimt3,437
Zazie dans le métro1960Louis Malle:imdb:St. Gloede3,8750
Zéfiro1993José Álvaro Morais:imdb:Wille3,754
Zhit2010Yuriy Bykov:imdb:72aicm3,333
Zhong lie tu1975King Hu:imdb:brian d3,6011
Zoo in Budapest1933Rowland V. Lee:imdb:cayado-coro3,6710
Zugvögel - ... einmal nach Inari1998Peter Lichtefeld:imdb:72aicm4,176:repeat:
Zvejnieka dels1939Vilis Janis Lapenieks:imdb:twodeadmagpies3,254
Zwischen zwei Kriegen1978Harun Farocki:imdb:Smoover3,888

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Angel Glez
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#718

Post by Angel Glez » May 13th, 2020, 11:22 am

Last edited by Angel Glez on May 13th, 2020, 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.


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AdamH
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#720

Post by AdamH » May 13th, 2020, 11:27 am

Thanks for all your work, Angel!

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