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iCM Favorite Underrated Movies; Results

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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OldAle1
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Re: iCM Favorite Underrated Movies; Results

#201

Post by OldAle1 » January 9th, 2020, 7:50 pm

Onderhond wrote:
January 9th, 2020, 7:23 pm
blocho wrote:
January 9th, 2020, 5:39 pm
My only hesitation with most overrated is that it would just be filled with the most seen movies. I bet if we did a top 100 most overrated, 75 of the movies would be in the icheckmovies - most checked list.
Would that really be the case? I probably end up with 80% of my votes on the TSPDT list.
Yeah, but do you really think anybody else here would have figures like that? If for example I just go by the opposite criteria - IMDb rating 7.0+, films that you rate, say, 2 points lower or more, and filter out shorts and obscure films, I get a list that's mostly mainstream American films of the last 30 years, with I'm guessing no more than 5 films from TSP on it. Now I may be overly generous or overly "cineaste-mainstream", certainly compared to you, but I really don't think there are many people here who are going to have lists full of Citizen Kane, Vertigo, 2001, etc; I suspect most lists would be closer to mine than yours. I mean, those films tend to dominate our all-time list just like they do TSP, S&S, etc.

Of course with a fairly small group of users, like this poll had, anything can happen. But I suspect the results would, like the results here, have just a bit to say about the user base, and not that much to say about the films themselves or any kind of trends. This was an interesting exercise but I have to agree with the users that suggest that it has little utility for them; of the 37 films I haven't seen all were familiar to me, only a handful look interesting, and most are films I've always avoided for a reason. And though many of my favorites were near the top, as well as some films I hated, that doesn't really make it particularly interesting either.

I guess when it comes down to it this kind of exercise is fairly useless IMO, certainly less interesting than most of the other polls we've done. But I'm glad we did it once anyway just for the hell of it.

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#202

Post by OldAle1 » January 9th, 2020, 8:32 pm

Oh, stats -

Seen 63% including 23 of the top 25

Highest # I voted for: #2 Under the Skin
Highest # not voted for: #1 Spring Breakers (also my least-favorite of the top 100)
Highest unseen: #8 Only God Forgives, #15 The Bling Ring (little interest in either)
Position of my #1: #5 Margaret

With two films I strongly disliked in the top 5 - but also my favorite, and 2 other films I loved - this was a schizophrenic result as far as I'm concerned - it's rare that there are films I really dislike in any top 10s and never at #1. To be fair though I probably should give that one a second go - I saw a rather horrible copy of it after it came out, and it's still the only Korine film I've seen, and I do trust the tastes of some of it's partisans. Probably never warm to Refn though after two tries.

A little surprised that my #2 choice, Ruiz' essay at Proust, didn't fare better, though it did get a couple of other votes. I really think this would have been a more interesting exercise with significantly more voters and a top 150-200, at least, but I'm sure it would also have a lot more films that I consider dreck to balance the films I love that others hate :lol:

In any case thanks to Lonewolf for putting this all together.

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#203

Post by joachimt » January 9th, 2020, 8:44 pm

I got curious, so I gave it a shot to see what my vote for a most overrated poll would look like. I went with the suggestion by OldAle1, without excluding shorts (I don't see the point in that).
At least 7.0 on IMDb.
At least 1000 votes on IMDb.
My rating at least 2.0 points lower.
Removed episodes and series.
That resulted in 251 titles. If I rank it by biggest difference between my rating and IMDb rating, the top 10 looks like this (11 titles, because #10 is a tie):
Freedom Writers IMDb: 7.5 Me: 2
Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham... IMDb: 7.4 Me: 2
Don't Hug Me I'm Scared IMDb: 8.2 Me: 3
Finding Nemo IMDb: 8.1 Me: 3
Beastie Boys: Fight for Your Right Revisited IMDb: 8 Me: 3
Them Thar Hills IMDb: 7.7 Me: 3
Agneepath IMDb: 7.7 Me: 3
Female Trouble IMDb: 7.3 Me: 3
Desperate Living IMDb: 7.2 Me: 3
Sholay IMDb: 8.2 Me: 4
Rang De Basanti IMDb: 8.2 Me: 4
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#204

Post by OldAle1 » January 9th, 2020, 8:55 pm

With you on Finding Nemo and Sholay - though I don't rate them as low, I'm still 3 points lower on the first and 2 points on the second. Those are the only ones I've seen out of those. These are all of mine where the difference is at least 5 whole points:

It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World (7.5 - 1)
Bohemian Rhapsody (8.0 - 2)
Uncle Buck (7.0 - 1)
Apollo 13 (7.6 - 2)
Léon (8.5 - 3)
The Lion King (8.5 - 3)
The Dark Knight Rises (8.4 - 3)
A Beautiful Mind (8.2 - 3)
The Rock (7.4 - 2)
Sunshine (2007) (7.2 - 2)
Transformers (7.0 - 2)

I feel pretty confident in all of these except perhaps Uncle Buck which I suspect is a little better than a 1. I'd say Apollo 13 too but Ron Howard continues to hit below even my very low expectations.

I just re-did it without the "feature" box checked and it came out pretty different - guess I have several pretty low-rated docs, tv movies and shorts in the mix. And Michael Bay's The Rock which for some reason didn't show up before.

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#205

Post by cinewest » January 9th, 2020, 11:50 pm

Some interesting thoughts about a proposed “overrated”poll, though I think that 7 is too low a score to start with. Maybe 7.5.
My own list would probably be chalked full of “popular” 8’s, and I suspect the forum list would be a competition between arthouse films a lot of people here seem to hate, and mainstream ones that stir the ire of others.

I do know that Leon would be pretty high on my list, but then so would La La land, :-)

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#206

Post by Onderhond » January 9th, 2020, 11:58 pm

For the overrated poll I'd go for something like 1-3 votes with 7.5+ on IMDb I think. Just to go for the obvious ones. Then again, I have quite a few 1-3 votes to pick from.

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#207

Post by Lakigigar » January 10th, 2020, 12:03 am

1. The Usual Suspects IMDb rating 8,5 my rating 1,0
2. Requiem for a Dream IMDb rating 8,3 my rating 1,0
3. V for Vendetta IMDb rating 8,2 my rating 1,0
4. An Inconvenient Truth IMDb rating 7,4 my rating 1,0
5. Inception IMDb rating 8,8 my rating 2,0
6. Braveheart IMDb rating 8,2 my rating 2,0
7. 300 IMDb rating 7,6 my rating 2,0
8. Scott Pilgrim vs the World IMDb rating 7,5 my rating 2,0
9. We Need To Talk About Kevin IMDb rating 7,5 my rating 2,0
10. La vita é bella IMDb rating 8,6 my rating 3,0

F.Y.I. my rating for Twilight is 8,0 but i guess i'm sort of a weirdo, but do i think Twilight is better than previous mentioned movies. Obviously yes. 8 is maybe a bit too high though for Twilight, but it's been 4 or 5 years since i saw the movie last. I haven't seen the sequences, but I can believe i'll think they're worse. It might be disappointing if i watch them again, but someday i will. First i want to check some movies that i know for sure that might end up in my toplist instead of wasting time on 5,0 / 6,0 movies. That's why i'm postponing Marvel and skipping sci-fi challenge.

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#208

Post by mightysparks » January 10th, 2020, 12:12 am

OldAle1 wrote:
January 9th, 2020, 7:50 pm
Onderhond wrote:
January 9th, 2020, 7:23 pm
blocho wrote:
January 9th, 2020, 5:39 pm
My only hesitation with most overrated is that it would just be filled with the most seen movies. I bet if we did a top 100 most overrated, 75 of the movies would be in the icheckmovies - most checked list.
Would that really be the case? I probably end up with 80% of my votes on the TSPDT list.
Yeah, but do you really think anybody else here would have figures like that?
Yeah, me :P I think a most overrated list would end up with obvious titles but the order may be the interesting aspect.
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#209

Post by jvv » January 10th, 2020, 12:21 am

I've done a quick scan and my overrated list would be a lot longer than my underrated list was.

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#210

Post by mightysparks » January 10th, 2020, 1:04 am

I did a quick test using joachimt's requirements and only ratings 1-3 and apparently I've watched too many Turkish/Indian/Russian mafia films (though I don't think I'd include all of them in 'overrated'): https://www.imdb.com/list/ls093242924/ (ranked by vote difference)
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#211

Post by sol » January 10th, 2020, 4:10 am

Just to be clear - since it looks like I inadvertently suggested it - I would not support an Overrated Movies poll or anything like that which involves bringing negativity to the surface. Just doesn't feel right to me. I would prefer to celebrate and champion films rather than bash or trash them.
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#212

Post by mightysparks » January 10th, 2020, 4:15 am

I think I'd prefer a 'Worst Movies' over an overrated poll as I think it would be more interesting, but I'm happy to trash or celebrate. Film is about the good and the bad :)
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#213

Post by blocho » January 10th, 2020, 5:09 am

I think Mighty is on the right track. I'm switching my advocacy from Most Overrated to a Worst Movies poll (or, as a backup, a most overrated directors poll). Worst Movies will have some most checked movies, but there will also be a smattering of hababams, Arnulf Rainers, Cosmopoliseseses, and maybe even some ... what's the opposite of a hidden gem? Hidden turds?

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#214

Post by cinewest » January 10th, 2020, 5:48 am

Coming back to the poll results, I noticed that all of the top filmmakers represented work in English which flies in the face of my own sense that the vast majority of the most underrated filmmakers work in a language other than English. In fact, roughly 75% of my own submission list of 126 films were in a language other than English, but in keeping with poll results, most were also made in the past 30-40 years.

At the top of my list of directors might be Lucrecia Martel, and I thought about including every one of her films on my submission list before excluding La Cienaga because it was the only one with a rating higher than 7 on imdb. As an interesting side note, the magazine Film Comment (and bevy of critics) just voted Zama the number one film of the last decade, though it's imdb rating continues to hover in the mid 6's

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#215

Post by beavis » January 10th, 2020, 11:19 am

Martel is highly rated by most people who bother to watch her movies, so there is again the confusion of underrated with underseen here...

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#216

Post by Lakigigar » January 10th, 2020, 11:35 am

sol wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 4:10 am
Just to be clear - since it looks like I inadvertently suggested it - I would not support an Overrated Movies poll or anything like that which involves bringing negativity to the surface. Just doesn't feel right to me. I would prefer to celebrate and champion films rather than bash or trash them.
I'd think it's indeed better to focus on the best films. I will campaign for a best coming-of-age films poll next year.

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#217

Post by Fergenaprido » January 10th, 2020, 11:36 am

beavis wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 11:19 am
Martel is highly rated by most people who bother to watch her movies, so there is again the confusion of underrated with underseen here...
If that were truly the case, wouldn't you expect her averages to be 7.5+ for her films with a only a few hundred or few thousand ratings?

As they currently stand:

7.1/10 - 4,930
6.7/10 - 3,432
6.5/10 - 4,149
6.7/10 - 4,614

Can't say I agree with your statement. There are plenty of people who bother to watch her movies and don't rate them highly. I'm one of them. I've seen her first three and rated them 6.8, 6.6, and 6.6.

You may have a slightly stronger case using icm data than imdb, but even there it seems her films are well-received by critics (based on # of official lists), but not by general audiences (based on % favourites):

6 lists - 1,038 checks - 7.8% faves
4 lists - 700 checks - 5.0% faves
7 lists - 1,114 checks - 5.3% faves
2 lists - 509 checks - 8.1% faves

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#218

Post by cinewest » January 10th, 2020, 12:02 pm

beavis wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 11:19 am
Martel is highly rated by most people who bother to watch her movies, so there is again the confusion of underrated with underseen here...
I wouldn’t call a Sub 7 rating “highly rated. In fact, they are well within the criteria for submission, and since I believe all of her films deserve an 8 or above, they are therefore underrated.

And Martel is just one example of what I was expressing.

I might also argue that if more people saw her films, the ratings would probably go down, since most cinephiles that appreciate her work have already seen it.
Last edited by cinewest on January 10th, 2020, 12:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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#219

Post by Onderhond » January 10th, 2020, 12:26 pm

cinewest wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 12:02 pm
they are well within the criteria for submission
I assume your own criteria? Because no 6.5+ film made a chance in my submissions. And 6.5 was just for my 10s.

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#220

Post by beavis » January 10th, 2020, 12:44 pm

on a ranking out of 10 a (small) 7 is still a very positive rating in my book… and of course those few of a more general audience who seek her out on account of the very positive critics, will not rate her movies as high, maybe even occasionally very low... but still, for my personal view it is absurd to say that Martel is in any way underrated…
but thanks for reminding me that I should not take part in these kind of discussions ;)

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#221

Post by cinewest » January 10th, 2020, 2:38 pm

beavis wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 12:44 pm
on a ranking out of 10 a (small) 7 is still a very positive rating in my book… and of course those few of a more general audience who seek her out on account of the very positive critics, will not rate her movies as high, maybe even occasionally very low... but still, for my personal view it is absurd to say that Martel is in any way underrated…
but thanks for reminding me that I should not take part in these kind of discussions ;)
If you want to get snotty, we can do that.

But before going there, I'll just say that your opening statement is false, as shown not only by myself, but Fergenaprido's stats in his reply.

Your second response is also false, as the 3 Martel's I included had below a 7 rating (not a small 7), and you have provided nothing to show that Martel should not be considered underrated according to the criteria of this poll (especially as I value these 3 films at least 1.5 points above where they are rated). She may be well loved by some, and more respected by film critics than most other audiences, but the same could be said for many of the films and filmmakers that did well in this poll).

Is Cronenberg underrated? Malick? DePalma? Refn? It depends on who you ask, and the primary reference point provided for this poll was a film's imdb rating, where it was suggested that anything below a 7 thought to deserve better was admissible.

Furthermore, it is my opinion that she is one of the most underrated and under appreciated filmmakers working, today, so much so that she has only been able to make one film in the last 10 years, which just happened to be voted film of the decade by Film Comment despite an imdb score considerably lower than many other films made in the last 10 years.

If there is anything "absurd," it is your inability to acknowledge any of the facts put in front of you.
Last edited by cinewest on January 10th, 2020, 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#222

Post by albajos » January 10th, 2020, 2:43 pm

There is nothing factual with the term underrated. This discussion is pointless

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#223

Post by Onderhond » January 10th, 2020, 2:50 pm

Mostly because there we no strict submission rules at all.

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#224

Post by cinewest » January 10th, 2020, 2:52 pm

albajos wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 2:43 pm
There is nothing factual with the term underrated. This discussion is pointless
If you read and understood the argument, you should be able to see that the "facts" I refer to are the numbers, not the term "underrated," which I stated rather plainly was my opinion.

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#225

Post by Ivan0716 » January 10th, 2020, 7:18 pm

I wouldn't consider any of Martel's films underrated at all, they were never going to be a hit with the general public, but are well loved by the audience they're intended for. But then again, when you have Spring Breakers, Under the Skin, Tree of Life and Inherent Vice in the top 10, I guess anything goes.

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#226

Post by peeptoad » January 10th, 2020, 7:32 pm

mightysparks wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 4:15 am
I think I'd prefer a 'Worst Movies' over an overrated poll as I think it would be more interesting, but I'm happy to trash or celebrate. Film is about the good and the bad :)
1. The Notebook
2. Juno
3. Up in the Air

all 1s in my book.

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#227

Post by GruesomeTwosome » January 10th, 2020, 7:47 pm

sol wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 4:10 am
Just to be clear - since it looks like I inadvertently suggested it - I would not support an Overrated Movies poll or anything like that which involves bringing negativity to the surface. Just doesn't feel right to me. I would prefer to celebrate and champion films rather than bash or trash them.
100% agreed. :thumbsup:
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#228

Post by Lakigigar » January 10th, 2020, 8:06 pm

It could be interesting, but I don't think it's a good idea to waste time and efforts for a most overrated / worst movies poll as they're not really suggestions. I would rather redo a recurring poll from a country / region or do a poll like coming-of-age which we never had. Agreed?

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#229

Post by mjf314 » January 10th, 2020, 9:41 pm

I'm not interested in an overrated poll. I'd rather do polls that can be used for recommendations. I think most of the interesting poll ideas are already on the 2020 schedule. Among the poll ideas that aren't on the schedule, I'm most interested in music videos, erotic, history, and coming-of-age.

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#230

Post by Onderhond » January 10th, 2020, 9:44 pm

mjf314 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:41 pm
I'd rather do polls that can be used for recommendations.
Me too, I'm still waiting for one B)

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#231

Post by mjf314 » January 10th, 2020, 9:54 pm

Onderhond wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:44 pm
mjf314 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:41 pm
I'd rather do polls that can be used for recommendations.
Me too, I'm still waiting for one B)
What type of poll are you hoping for?

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#232

Post by 72aicm » January 10th, 2020, 9:56 pm

mjf314 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:54 pm
Onderhond wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:44 pm
mjf314 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:41 pm
I'd rather do polls that can be used for recommendations.
Me too, I'm still waiting for one B)
What type of poll are you hoping for?
One without voters.

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#233

Post by Onderhond » January 10th, 2020, 10:34 pm

mjf314 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:54 pm
Onderhond wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:44 pm
mjf314 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:41 pm
I'd rather do polls that can be used for recommendations.
Me too, I'm still waiting for one B)
What type of poll are you hoping for?
One that can be used for recommendations? I tried that with the animation poll but all it did was turn me off of stop-motion animation, which I used to love :(

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#234

Post by Ivan0716 » January 10th, 2020, 11:12 pm

A poll for 21st century East Asian films with less than 100/50/10 checks?

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#235

Post by Fergenaprido » January 11th, 2020, 5:00 am

Movies seen: 21/100 (21%)
Movies I voted for: 8/100 (8%) (7% of my list of 115)
SpoilerShow
Enemy, Legally Blonde, Charlie's Angels, Resident Evil, Down with Love, Where the Wild Things Are, Lady in the Water, Ghostbusters
Highest movie unseen: #1 Spring Breakers
Highest favourite: #254 Romeo + Juliet
Highest dislike: #44 Bulanti
Highest (non-favourite) movie I voted for: #47 Enemy
Highest (non-dislike) movie seen I didn't vote for: #9 Showgirls
Position of my #1: #434 Battlefield Earth
My next highest vote that didn't make the list: #455 Moonlight Mile (my #2)

I think this is the fewest number of films from my list that have ever made a final poll list (mind you it's also one of the smaller polls). It was an interesting exercise, and I've definitely got some recommendations to look forward to. I have 24 of the top 100 already watchlisted, so I'll start giving those a go. There are a number of films I didn't vote for because my vote difference was too small, but I'm still pleased they showed up on the list because they're good films.

Thanks for hosting, Lonewolf, and thanks to everyone who contributed.

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#236

Post by mightysparks » January 11th, 2020, 5:09 am

Movies seen: 51/100 (51%)
Movies I voted for: 7/100 (7%) (7% of my list of 102)
Highest movie unseen: #4 Cosmopolis
Highest favourite: #16 eXistenZ
Highest dislike: #6 Tree of Life
Position of my #1: #433 Stalled

Didn't really find this list that different in terms of quality to any other list we do, but there were a lot more interesting entries. Lots of stuff I didn't vote for but love or like it a lot and I found it difficult to define 'underrated' so I wasn't particularly happy with my list, which is why I just used math to do it. Also lots of stuff that I felt was overrated or enough-rated, but still a pretty fun list.
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#237

Post by Onderhond » January 11th, 2020, 8:54 am

Ivan0716 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 11:12 pm
A poll for 21st century East Asian films with less than 100/50/10 checks?
Believe it or not, but I'm actually quite good on following up contemporary (East-)Asian cinema, let alone that think this board could wield some proper recommends for me.

Non-Asian genre cinema with auteur-like/light execution on the other hand is an annoying gap. Film like "Dave Made a Maze", "Liza, the Fox-Fairy", "Skins", "Swiss Army Man", the work of Quentin Dupieux. I hit some of these randomly, but I have no good source for them. Could definitely use some help there.

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#238

Post by Lakigigar » January 11th, 2020, 9:12 am

Onderhond wrote:
January 11th, 2020, 8:54 am
Ivan0716 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 11:12 pm
A poll for 21st century East Asian films with less than 100/50/10 checks?
Believe it or not, but I'm actually quite good on following up contemporary (East-)Asian cinema, let alone that think this board could wield some proper recommends for me.

Non-Asian genre cinema with auteur-like/light execution on the other hand is an annoying gap. Film like "Dave Made a Maze", "Liza, the Fox-Fairy", "Skins", "Swiss Army Man", the work of Quentin Dupieux. I hit some of these randomly, but I have no good source for them. Could definitely use some help there.
Your taste is too weird and eclectic too possibly have recommendations. Based on your taste, i would say Spring Breakers and the Tarantino movies are something for you, but they're not. Maybe a "weird movies poll" would possibly do it, and you can advocate for it. But even than, i still doubt you would like the majority of those movies.

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mightysparks
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#239

Post by mightysparks » January 11th, 2020, 9:23 am

My taste isn't particularly ‘out there’ and I equally love and hate bits of pretty much every genre/style/etc and recommendations don’t really work for me either. But that's also why I try to watch everything because I don’t even know what I’m gonna like, but I’ll know I’ll find something eventually. I’ve mostly been watching stuff that interests me the last 3 years and haven’t had any better luck than when I’m just following lists. I haven’t even given out a 10 since 2011. I just enjoy the journey and savour the rare great moments.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

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#240

Post by mjf314 » January 11th, 2020, 6:17 pm

I would be interested in a "weird movies" poll.

I'm not sure if a "genre movies" poll would work. It might be difficult to come up with clear criteria.

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