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iCM Forum's Favourite Films of the Current Decade So Far; 2019 edition; Results

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Gordon_Gekko
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Re: iCM Forum's Favourite Films of the Current Decade So Far; 2019 edition; Results

#281

Post by Gordon_Gekko » July 9th, 2019, 5:50 am

Onderhond wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 5:42 am
Weighing votes or favoring certain types of films is definitely a bad idea. If the taste of a communist isn't very diverse, the list should just reflect that.
Freudscher Versprecher? :D

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#282

Post by PGonzalez » July 9th, 2019, 5:57 am

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 10:20 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:12 pm
but for various (practical) reasons people watch less of those
It's never been so easy to find and watch films, EL & FL, so if there's a reason it's probably just laziness or lack of interest.
While it's certainly true that it's never been easier to find these films, I believe distribution also plays a crucial role here, like mjf said. For those who still base their movie watching around big-screen availability, there is often a chance to see obscure older pictures (e.g. cinémathèques or arthouse cinemas), but the same can't be said for more recent films, both due to how film distribution is set up in most countries and due to the lack of interest most audiences have in seeing new films with little to no info influencing their choice when ticket prices are quite high. From personal experience, an analogous reasoning can be used for DVDs. There is an obvious counterpoint to this, film festivals, but of course you'll only be able to attend them if you are lucky enough to be near one :)

I'm not sure if that's something that plays a big role for most people here, but at least it does for me: I just went through my profile, and out of all the 2017, 2018 and 2019 movies I checked, there was only one that I didn't see at a cinema (Twin Peaks). Laziness might play a part in it, but I believe that it isn't necessarily the main factor for those who do not use the Internet as their main source for cinema.

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#283

Post by Onderhond » July 9th, 2019, 6:00 am

Gordon_Gekko wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 5:50 am
Onderhond wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 5:42 am
Weighing votes or favoring certain types of films is definitely a bad idea. If the taste of a communist isn't very diverse, the list should just reflect that.
Freudscher Versprecher? :D
Hah, autocorrect fail, thanks for catching it!

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#284

Post by albajos » July 9th, 2019, 7:08 am

Coryn wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 3:40 am
Another option is a ratings list like Joahhim showed here. (still wondering where this list is made and if it's updated somewhere?)
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3944&p=533033#p533033
but the user haven't been here on the site since sep'18. The previous calculations (which I linked to in the previous post) were 2 years old

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#285

Post by cinewest » July 9th, 2019, 7:15 am

Opio wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 5:20 am
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:13 pm
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 8:18 pm
...I also have to mention the absurdity of strategic voting. It's like people using quotas when it comes to hiring people. Yes, there is discrimination against minorities when it comes to hiring, just like there's discrimination when it comes to people watching American films instead. However, placing quotas is just as silly. Not only can you potentially hire worse people, or having film rankings for films that don't deserve it in your eyes, but it results in tokenism, which comes across as very silly in my book. It gives the appearance of variety, but it's actually not the case. Just rank your 10th favourite film of the decade as #10, and who gives a fuck where it came from....
...As for "strategic voting," I was partially joking when I made that comment, though you brought up exactly the reason why I might elect to do so when you spoke about discrimination. No, not the kind that is driven by overt prejudice, but the kind enforced by a pervasive cultural dominance that provides no space for diversity except in "tokenism."
But wouldn't a forced diversity list (purely based on non-English language origin, I assume) raise questions about whether these movies are really that good, or whether they're just being added for "diversity"?
In my opinion, the list is already so heavily skewed towards American/EL films for a variety of reasons (already discussed) that have nothing to do with quality, that the most diverse lists submitted have very little impact on the result
Maybe Lonewolf will post a breakdown by country, and you will see what I mean.
Last edited by cinewest on July 9th, 2019, 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#286

Post by Onderhond » July 9th, 2019, 7:26 am

PGonzalez wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 5:57 am
Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 10:20 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:12 pm
but for various (practical) reasons people watch less of those
It's never been so easy to find and watch films, EL & FL, so if there's a reason it's probably just laziness or lack of interest.
While it's certainly true that it's never been easier to find these films, I believe distribution also plays a crucial role here, like mjf said. For those who still base their movie watching around big-screen availability, there is often a chance to see obscure older pictures (e.g. cinémathèques or arthouse cinemas), but the same can't be said for more recent films, both due to how film distribution is set up in most countries and due to the lack of interest most audiences have in seeing new films with little to no info influencing their choice when ticket prices are quite high. From personal experience, an analogous reasoning can be used for DVDs. There is an obvious counterpoint to this, film festivals, but of course you'll only be able to attend them if you are lucky enough to be near one :)

I'm not sure if that's something that plays a big role for most people here, but at least it does for me: I just went through my profile, and out of all the 2017, 2018 and 2019 movies I checked, there was only one that I didn't see at a cinema (Twin Peaks). Laziness might play a part in it, but I believe that it isn't necessarily the main factor for those who do not use the Internet as their main source for cinema.
While I'm sure this is the case for some individuals, I don't think this is the community default really. Even so (and I get it's a bit confusing, because we have two related discussions running next to each other), the same seem to happen with "certain kinds" of EL films that really shouldn't be difficult to track down.

I mean, what happened to a guy like Doremus on this board? He's been at it for a while, has a very consistent and distinct style, does stylized romance with echoes of Malick, has a great view on contemporary life, balances critique with understanding, his films are widely available … but not a blip. The only problem is that his films aren't too critics-friendly (maybe because his films lack damning social critique?).

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#287

Post by Lammetje » July 9th, 2019, 4:20 pm

joachimt wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 7:45 pm
I got curious about the numbers. Cinewest says people here don't watch (or at least vote for) enough FL movies. So what percentage of each list is English? And how does cinewest do in that aspect? The best way to calculate this is manually, because of movies with multiple languages, but using an advanced search on IMDb, we can get a rough idea. I used all userlists that were made on IMDb, filtered them on English language and calculated the percentage for each user. Here are the results of 47 users:

1. RogerTheMovieManiac88 (42%, 125 titles)
2. Mate_cosido (47%, 85 titles)
3. mjf314 (47%, 92 titles)
4. perceval (51%, 100 titles)
5. wasabi (53%, 75 titles)
6. XxXApathy420XxX (55%, 124 titles)
7. Dolwphin (56%, 32 titles)
8. hurluberlu (56%, 155 titles)
9. Traveller (59%, 75 titles)
10. viktor-vaudevillain (60%, 197 titles)
11. cinewest (62%, 100 titles)
12. Wonderful Rainbow (66%, 86 titles)
13. matthewscott8 (66%, 50 titles)
14. outdoorcats (67%, 250 titles)
15. jvv (67%, 60 titles)
16. Mysterious Dude (68%, 250 titles)
17. Smoover (68%, 195 titles)
18. klaus78 (71%, 100 titles)
19. Fergenaprido (71%, 400 titles)
20. OldAle1 (72%, 200 titles)
21. Perception de Ambiguity (73%, 1234 titles)
22. St. Gloede (73%, 95 titles)
23. Jimi Antiloop (75%, 336 titles)
24. albajos (75%, 199 titles)
25. allisoncm (76%, 259 titles)
26. Carmel1379 (77%, 312 titles)
27. bal3x (77%, 105 titles)
28. RedHawk10 (77%, 30 titles)
29. ChrisReynolds (77%, 176 titles)
30. Caracortada (78%, 142 titles)
31. Lonewolf2003 (79%, 231 titles)
32. joachimt (80%, 149 titles)
33. psychotronicbeatnik (80%, 60 titles)
34. brokenface (81%, 327 titles)
35. tommy_leazaq (81%, 110 titles)
36. jeff_v (82%, 180 titles)
37. GruesomeTwosome (83%, 120 titles)
38. Good_Will_Harding (83%, 238 titles)
39. Ebbywebby (85%, 164 titles)
40. filmbantha (86%, 145 titles)
41. Gordon_Gekko (87%, 200 titles)
42. India Istanbul (88%, 16 titles)
43. 1SO (89%, 116 titles)
44. Lammetje (90%, 50 titles)
45. PeacefulAnarchy (91%, 135 titles)
46. blocho (92%, 138 titles)
47. gromit82 (97%, 70 titles)

So there are 10 users with a lower percentage of English movies than cinewest and 36 with a higher percentage. So he's partly right, but certainly not a rare exception.

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Speaking for myself. My movie watching over the whole history of cinema is spread out over the whole world. Sure it leans towards English language more than to others, because I've watched a lot of the canon. Apart from that my watching behavior is determined by Netflix and other streaming services. So these are the recent movies and those services tend to focus mostly on English movies. Should I seek FL movies then? Sure, but I already do that, but not just for the last decade, but for the whole history of cinema. I'm not interested in seeking out a certain recent movement. So the result is that I watch a lot more English movies from the last decade than from other decades.
Compare these numbers: I voted for 80% English movies on this poll. Among my 12,133 ratings on IMDb, 6945 are English. That's 57%, so an even lower percentage than cinewest has on this poll :P .
So do I ignore recent FL cinema? No, but English cinema falls on my lap easier. I recently took a subscription at CineMember, a Dutch streaming service which has lots of FL movies from the last decade. So cinewest might be happy about that. But it's purely an arthouse service, so Onderhond will be displeased. No matter what, there's always someone complaining. You know what? I'll just do whatever I want. I already watch about 12 movies a week (which is a LOT considering the life I lead). I'm hapy with the way I select those movies. It feels like a good diversity to me. I'm not going to try make a big study out of it to make sure I cover all countries and all niches.
Thanks for providing these stats, J-Dog. When it comes to the 2010s I'm a real mainstream trash watcher (at least compared to the average ICM forum member), and I'm not ashamed of it! My top 1 is 100% FL though.
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#288

Post by blocho » July 9th, 2019, 6:49 pm

I was a bit surprised I was 46th on the list (or second, depends on how you look at it). I went through my list, and actually 84% of the movies were primarily English language, not 92%. So I think Joachim's numbers are a bit off. Either way, I embrace my love of the english language and the cinemas of Canada, the US, Belize, Guyana, Australia, Ireland, Nigeria, Kenya, the UK, New Zealand, etc, etc, etc.

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#289

Post by Fergenaprido » July 9th, 2019, 7:59 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 7:15 am
Opio wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 5:20 am
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:13 pm


...As for "strategic voting," I was partially joking when I made that comment, though you brought up exactly the reason why I might elect to do so when you spoke about discrimination. No, not the kind that is driven by overt prejudice, but the kind enforced by a pervasive cultural dominance that provides no space for diversity except in "tokenism."
But wouldn't a forced diversity list (purely based on non-English language origin, I assume) raise questions about whether these movies are really that good, or whether they're just being added for "diversity"?
In my opinion, the list is already so heavily skewed towards American/EL films for a variety of reasons (already discussed) that have nothing to do with quality, that the most diverse lists submitted have very little impact on the result
Maybe Lonewolf will post a breakdown by country, and you will see what I mean.
I posted that breakdown already a few pages back: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4407&start=160#p585605
The breakdown is by country, not language, but 107 (43%) of the Top 250 are from the USA.
If people want a language breakdown I can do that too.

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#290

Post by joachimt » July 9th, 2019, 8:07 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 7:59 pm
cinewest wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 7:15 am
Opio wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 5:20 am


But wouldn't a forced diversity list (purely based on non-English language origin, I assume) raise questions about whether these movies are really that good, or whether they're just being added for "diversity"?
In my opinion, the list is already so heavily skewed towards American/EL films for a variety of reasons (already discussed) that have nothing to do with quality, that the most diverse lists submitted have very little impact on the result
Maybe Lonewolf will post a breakdown by country, and you will see what I mean.
I posted that breakdown already a few pages back: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4407&start=160#p585605
The breakdown is by country, not language, but 107 (43%) of the Top 250 are from the USA.
If people want a language breakdown I can do that too.
Using the same method as my stats above (advanced search on IMDb with language=English, so movies with English as secondary language are counted as well), the result is 190/250 is English. That's 76%.
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#291

Post by joachimt » July 9th, 2019, 8:09 pm

On the complete list it's 2633/3979, so 66%.
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#292

Post by Ebbywebby » July 9th, 2019, 8:58 pm

If the issue is not appreciating "enough" FL films, perhaps the sheer tally would be as good a criterion as the percentage. Which would go something like....

(Except that PDA just ranked "everything" rather than the highlights.)

1. Perception de Ambiguity: 333 FL films ranked
2. Fergenaprido: 116
3. Jimi Antiloop: 84
4. outdoorcats: 83
5. Mysterious Dude: 80
6. viktor-vaudevillain: 79
7. RogerTheMovieManiac88: 72
8. Carmel1379: 72
9. hurluberlu: 68
10. Smoover: 62
11. allisoncm: 62
12. brokenface: 62
13. XxXApathy420XxX: 59
14. OldAle1: 56
15. albajos: 50
16. mjf314: 49
17. perceval: 49
18. Lonewolf2003: 49
19. Mate_cosido: 45
20. ChrisReynolds: 40
21. Good_Will_Harding: 40
22. cinewest: 38
23. wasabi: 36
24. jeff_v: 32
25. Traveller: 31
26. Caracortada: 31
27. joachimt: 30
28. Wonderful Rainbow: 29
29. klaus78: 29
30. Gordon_Gekko: 26
31. St. Gloede: 26
32. Ebbywebby: 25
33. bal3x: 24
34. tommy_leazaq: 21
35. jvv: 20
36. GruesomeTwosome: 20
37. filmbantha: 20
38. matthewscott8: 17
39. Dolwphin: 14
40. 1SO: 13
41. psychotronicbeatnik: 12
42. PeacefulAnarchy: 12
43. blocho: 11
44. Lammetje: 10
45. RedHawk10: 7
46. India Istanbul: 2
47. gromit82: 2

No change in rank at all for Lammetje and gromit82, but big jumps upward for longer-list folks like PDA, Jimi Antiloop, Carmel1379 and brokenface and big drops for smaller-list folks like wasabi, jvv, matthewscott8 and poor Dolwphin.

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#293

Post by Mysterious Dude » July 9th, 2019, 10:02 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 8:58 pm
5. Mysterious Dude: 80
Haha! Recognition at last!

I think I watch more foreign movies than most Americans, but my time is limited, and there are days when I feel like watching The Matrix for the 100th time.

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#294

Post by mightysparks » July 9th, 2019, 10:15 pm

Was curious about my numbers; 111/134 are English, about 83%. Not surprised it’s so high I guess. Especially as the best kind of horror is American horror and that’s the majority of what I watch. I don’t really consider whether something is ‘foreign’ or whatever when watching or liking stuff though unless I’m trying to improve my stats and about 25% of what I watch overall is non-English language.
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#295

Post by Onderhond » July 9th, 2019, 10:30 pm

mightysparks wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 10:15 pm
Especially as the best kind of horror is American horror and that’s the majority of what I watch.
Myeah ... us horror fans don't often agree on things :D

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#296

Post by PGonzalez » July 10th, 2019, 2:00 am

Onderhond wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 7:26 am
While I'm sure this is the case for some individuals, I don't think this is the community default really. Even so (and I get it's a bit confusing, because we have two related discussions running next to each other), the same seem to happen with "certain kinds" of EL films that really shouldn't be difficult to track down.

I mean, what happened to a guy like Doremus on this board? He's been at it for a while, has a very consistent and distinct style, does stylized romance with echoes of Malick, has a great view on contemporary life, balances critique with understanding, his films are widely available … but not a blip. The only problem is that his films aren't too critics-friendly (maybe because his films lack damning social critique?).
Completely agree about this not being the default :) However, I still think this has an effect on enough users to be seen as an important factor. Even guys like Doremus, despite their fame, can fall victim to this: I didn't get a chance to catch any of his last two films, as Newness didn't reach cinemas in Portugal and Zoe didn't reach cinemas in Spain, where I'm currently living. Those were pretty much my 2 cents regarding this topic, that this decade in particular is greatly influenced by availability, which can seem quite odd taking into account that, like you said, there have never been so many films available. I'm also not sure if the lack of a critical canon is a help or a detraction, as there are good arguments for both sides (e.g. the freedom that comes from not having a defined canon like you have for previous decades vs. the uncertainty that comes from not knowing what to watch leading people to converge around the same safe films, those that are already perceived as being part of a future canon).

Also, I completely agree that the discussion you're trying to have (why most people don't watch more "unknown" films, be it EL or FL) is much more interesting than simply discussing FL v. EL, and I was trying to address that with my reply, even though it ended up being a bit confusing. One of the iCM users whose activity I like to follow is allisoncm, who takes advantage of the amount of different programs she's able to find in L.A. and watches a ton of obscure recent films that don't get a lot of critical attention. I find her lists to be very interesting due to these inclusions, and the fact that most of them are American films doesn't take away from that at all: it's a niche that few other users are pursuing, and it sheds a light on several films I would never otherwise know about. Trying to turn a discussion about obscurity into a discussion about language or country of origin seems excessively simplistic, like I believe you said before.

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#297

Post by Onderhond » July 10th, 2019, 10:40 am

PGonzalez wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 2:00 am
Even guys like Doremus, despite their fame, can fall victim to this: I didn't get a chance to catch any of his last two films, as Newness didn't reach cinemas in Portugal and Zoe didn't reach cinemas in Spain, where I'm currently living.
Sure, but Zoe (and a bunch of his other films) reached Netflix, which has a pretty big reach nowadays. The problem with Netflix is of course that it increases ease of availability, but doesn't has as much authority compared to theater releases, nor does it handle the visibility of its film all that well.

The thing is that I somehow expect film fans to overcome such hurdles themselves (which isn't that hard to do either, there are solid 3rd party services who can help you with that).
PGonzalez wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 2:00 am
leading people to converge around the same safe films, those that are already perceived as being part of a future canon).
I don't have and stats, numeric proof or whatever, but that's exactly what feels wrong about this list. The list is almost a carbon copy of critics hype over the past 10 years.

-----------------

Another interesting thing to consider is related to something St. Gloede said. If indeed many of the participants are generally more interested in classic/older cinema, then there's an inequality between their lists and the lists of people who are actually loving the current decade. In a sense it would be "fairer" (not perfect at all, but fairer) I think if people would draw up a list of 500/1000 films and filter their submissions from that list for each poll, which would at least in part counter this particular distortion.

Of course, it would take away a lot of fun and freedom (and can you imagine all the complaints), so this is not a serious proposition, but it helps, at leas in part, to explain why this list feels so overly expected and void of surprise/range.

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#298

Post by matthewscott8 » July 10th, 2019, 10:46 am

Ebbywebby wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 8:58 pm
If the issue is not appreciating "enough" FL films, perhaps the sheer tally would be as good a criterion as the percentage. Which would go something like....

(Except that PDA just ranked "everything" rather than the highlights.)

1. Perception de Ambiguity: 333 FL films ranked
2. Fergenaprido: 116
3. Jimi Antiloop: 84
4. outdoorcats: 83
5. Mysterious Dude: 80
6. viktor-vaudevillain: 79
7. RogerTheMovieManiac88: 72
8. Carmel1379: 72
9. hurluberlu: 68
10. Smoover: 62
11. allisoncm: 62
12. brokenface: 62
13. XxXApathy420XxX: 59
14. OldAle1: 56
15. albajos: 50
16. mjf314: 49
17. perceval: 49
18. Lonewolf2003: 49
19. Mate_cosido: 45
20. ChrisReynolds: 40
21. Good_Will_Harding: 40
22. cinewest: 38
23. wasabi: 36
24. jeff_v: 32
25. Traveller: 31
26. Caracortada: 31
27. joachimt: 30
28. Wonderful Rainbow: 29
29. klaus78: 29
30. Gordon_Gekko: 26
31. St. Gloede: 26
32. Ebbywebby: 25
33. bal3x: 24
34. tommy_leazaq: 21
35. jvv: 20
36. GruesomeTwosome: 20
37. filmbantha: 20
38. matthewscott8: 17
39. Dolwphin: 14
40. 1SO: 13
41. psychotronicbeatnik: 12
42. PeacefulAnarchy: 12
43. blocho: 11
44. Lammetje: 10
45. RedHawk10: 7
46. India Istanbul: 2
47. gromit82: 2

No change in rank at all for Lammetje and gromit82, but big jumps upward for longer-list folks like PDA, Jimi Antiloop, Carmel1379 and brokenface and big drops for smaller-list folks like wasabi, jvv, matthewscott8 and poor Dolwphin.
I would like to think I have appreciated more than 17 foreign language movies in the 2010s :lol: Whilst I can see that pedeamb submitting a huge list does indeed prove he appreciates foreign language cinema, submitting a smaller focussed ultra high conviction list like I did, does not prove the opposite.

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#299

Post by cinephage » July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am

Onderhond wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 10:40 am
PGonzalez wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 2:00 am
leading people to converge around the same safe films, those that are already perceived as being part of a future canon).
I don't have and stats, numeric proof or whatever, but that's exactly what feels wrong about this list. The list is almost a carbon copy of critics hype over the past 10 years.
But this is a favorite list, and I think it makes sense that film experts and critic mostly agree on their favorite titles. There is such a thing as film canon, film history, and some movies are more important under that light than others. It should be expected that people who are knowledgeable in this field, and spend some time wtaching films, have at least the basis for a consensus. And it makes even more sense for this consensus to match the global expectations, which set the basis for consensus. There is no such thing as a great masterpiece no one has heard about, that critics have neglected, but that the members of this forum have all seen and secretly love, to be revealed by such a poll...

My votes overlap modestly with the results (only 37 % of my votes are in it), but it's only logical that the overlap concerns the most vastly seen and appreciated films. The individual steps away from the canon are masked by the number of voters, and only the consensus comes out...

I think you are really wishing for a different exercise. After all, the 500<400 came from a similar complaint : most members of this forum agree with historians and critics, and the favorite lists are not too different from what one could expect from a film critic. Always the Kubricks, Ozus, Welles, Hithcocks and Lumets... So it was decided to insist on lesser-seen favorites, to try and make a different list. We could work on a list of lesser-known films of the current decade, and I would be curious to see the results.

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#300

Post by cinewest » July 10th, 2019, 11:21 am

I realize that my comments here have probably been seen as antagonistic by some, but I personally see nothing wrong with asking challenging questions about the list, and I have enjoyed participating in the discussion / investigation that has followed, though some posters have misunderstood what I was after.

That's Ok. I hope folks got something useful out of it.

I thought there were a lot of interesting comments, even among those that trailed off topic, and perhaps Mathewscott8 provided one of the more cogent points when he said that English Language movies provide more of a cultural and social reference that includes and unites everyone these days, even people who don't live in English speaking countries. Some of the other comments supported that, including certain things that St.Gloede said about there being no real "unifier" of FL films outside of the official lists that include them.

More interesting to me than the top 250 created, here, are some of the individual lists that call my attention to films I am unfamiliar with, though during the course of reviewing the top 250, I find it interesting to reconsider the films I left off my own list as well as my reasons for doing so.

What's clear to me is that although cinema is entertaining and culturally relevant to all of us, how we connect and what we connect with and prize most can be very different, and I have never had an issue with that.

Cheers
Last edited by cinewest on July 10th, 2019, 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#301

Post by Onderhond » July 10th, 2019, 11:47 am

cinephage wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am
But this is a favorite list, and I think it makes sense that film experts and critic mostly agree on their favorite titles. There is such a thing as film canon, film history, and some movies are more important under that light than others. It should be expected that people who are knowledgeable in this field, and spend some time wtaching films, have at least the basis for a consensus. And it makes even more sense for this consensus to match the global expectations, which set the basis for consensus.
I've heard these arguments before and think I explained why I don't agree with them. I would understand if this was a poll done by The Guardian, with 50.000 participants. But it's a small poll on an ultra-specialized film community.
cinephage wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am
There is no such thing as a great masterpiece no one has heard about, that critics have neglected, but that the members of this forum have all seen and secretly love, to be revealed by such a poll...
I remember a discussion here last year, about the relative small scope most "critics" have on cinema as a whole and that their job practically prohibits them from watching as many films as some/many people on this forum. So I see no reason why this forum wouldn't be able to contribute some unknown gems. On the contrary.
cinewest wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:21 am
English Language movies provide more of a cultural and social reference that includes and unites everyone these days.
Well, A Separation made it to the number 1 spot.

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#302

Post by flaiky » July 10th, 2019, 12:22 pm

cinephage wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am
We could work on a list of lesser-known films of the current decade, and I would be curious to see the results.
I used the complete list to generate our top 250 films with >1000 ICM checks. See here.

I like your post, well said, though there are definitely a few films that have a greater following here than among critics. Small Roads, Homo Sapiens, Behemoth, Final Cut, Kaili Blues, A Simple Life, Stations of the Cross: I'm doubtful that these would make a S&S style top 250 of the decade.

I think it's a really solid list. Let's all look at the IMDB top 50 as a reminder of how much worse it could be..!
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#303

Post by cinewest » July 10th, 2019, 12:25 pm

@PGonzalez

From the individual lists, one can see that a small user base (around 15-20%) are very interested in seeking out "obscure cinema" (or hidden gems), but very few of them (like Bi Gan's films) create enough collective gravity to get very far in the polls. One of the things that I was intimating in my EL vs. FL probe is that most FL films are actually comparatively obscure compared to EL films, and I think that the poll results reflect that. So, the two conversations are related (as are many of the reasons for said "obscurity") if not exactly the same.

One of the differences is that some of the films are a lot more difficult to track down than others, and that applies to films in any language, depending on the marketplaces for them.

Aside from a small percentage of "seekers," what seems to preside most over viewership on this board are the "lists" on icheckmovies, as well as more popular (though not necessarily mainstream) types of films made in English.

To this point, I read an article not long ago about how filmmakers not working in English are finding it hard to survive and that many have turned to making films in English if/when the opportunity arrises just so they can reach an audience and continue plighting their craft.

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#304

Post by cinewest » July 10th, 2019, 12:46 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:47 am
cinephage wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am
But this is a favorite list, and I think it makes sense that film experts and critic mostly agree on their favorite titles. There is such a thing as film canon, film history, and some movies are more important under that light than others. It should be expected that people who are knowledgeable in this field, and spend some time wtaching films, have at least the basis for a consensus. And it makes even more sense for this consensus to match the global expectations, which set the basis for consensus.
I've heard these arguments before and think I explained why I don't agree with them. I would understand if this was a poll done by The Guardian, with 50.000 participants. But it's a small poll on an ultra-specialized film community.
cinephage wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am
There is no such thing as a great masterpiece no one has heard about, that critics have neglected, but that the members of this forum have all seen and secretly love, to be revealed by such a poll...
I remember a discussion here last year, about the relative small scope most "critics" have on cinema as a whole and that their job practically prohibits them from watching as many films as some/many people on this forum. So I see no reason why this forum wouldn't be able to contribute some unknown gems. On the contrary.
cinewest wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:21 am
English Language movies provide more of a cultural and social reference that includes and unites everyone these days.
Well, A Separation made it to the number 1 spot.
1) While film history and film canons may have sufficed in terms of providing a fairly encompassing consensus around the best that cinema has had to offer up until the 1960's, perhaps even a little beyond that, the sheer amount of what has been produced around the world since that time has made that less and less possible, despite all of the various assessors of the art form.

2) See #1 above. Decade by decade it has become easier and easier for high quality films to slip through the cracks without much notice, and this is even more true, internationally, if the film isn;t made in English. This shouldn't be surprising, either, as the very same thing has happened over time with every art form, whether we are talking about painting, music, literature, etc., and "masterpieces" in those fields are discovered all time years after they were produced.

3) A Separation (despite being in an FL) made it to number 1 for a variety of reasons that can be summarized thus: Great, universal, critical acclaim, and a straightforward narrative that is at the same time complex enough to satisfy while also simple enough to engage and make sense of. Other films like this (taut, script driven, well acted, suspenseful dramas) are also well loved on this board.

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#305

Post by cinephage » July 10th, 2019, 1:02 pm

flaiky wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 12:22 pm
cinephage wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am
We could work on a list of lesser-known films of the current decade, and I would be curious to see the results.
I used the complete list to generate our top 250 films with >1000 ICM checks. See here.

I like your post, well said, though there are definitely a few films that have a greater following here than among critics. Small Roads, Homo Sapiens, Behemoth, Final Cut, Kaili Blues, A Simple Life, Stations of the Cross: I'm doubtful that these would make a S&S style top 250 of the decade.

I think it's a really solid list. Let's all look at the IMDB top 50 as a reminder of how much worse it could be..!
Thanks !! 75/250 so I have ideas for further watches... :party:

It's certainly true the forum will have specific trends, even though it's a minor thing (it would play heavier on a bigger list, I suppose, as the further we go from shared tastes, the stronger individual tastes play). But I don't have a problem with that, I need an approach to find recommendation no matter what, and this is just as good as any other source (better than most I've met, I must admit).

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#306

Post by Fergenaprido » July 10th, 2019, 1:02 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 10:40 am
Another interesting thing to consider is related to something St. Gloede said. If indeed many of the participants are generally more interested in classic/older cinema, then there's an inequality between their lists and the lists of people who are actually loving the current decade. In a sense it would be "fairer" (not perfect at all, but fairer) I think if people would draw up a list of 500/1000 films and filter their submissions from that list for each poll, which would at least in part counter this particular distortion.

Of course, it would take away a lot of fun and freedom (and can you imagine all the complaints), so this is not a serious proposition, but it helps, at leas in part, to explain why this list feels so overly expected and void of surprise/range.
Isn't this what people do already? Have a list of films they like, and then filter out the 2010s titles for this poll, comedies for that poll, etc.?

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#307

Post by Onderhond » July 10th, 2019, 1:19 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 1:02 pm
Isn't this what people do already? Have a list of films they like, and then filter out the 2010s titles for this poll, comedies for that poll, etc.?
Yes, it's capping that initial list is what would make things fairer, as people who have little affinity with the 2010s would ultimately be able to submit less films (all those lower-ranking favs that are submitted now would be taken out of the equation).

Again, this is not a serious proposition :)

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#308

Post by Coryn » July 10th, 2019, 3:04 pm

Is there a wat to check who voted for movies out of the top 250?
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#309

Post by joachimt » July 10th, 2019, 4:01 pm

Coryn wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 3:04 pm
Is there a wat to check who voted for movies out of the top 250?
If Lonewolf shares the spreadsheet, you can find everything you want to know.
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#310

Post by Ebbywebby » July 10th, 2019, 9:26 pm

flaiky wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 12:22 pm
cinephage wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am
We could work on a list of lesser-known films of the current decade, and I would be curious to see the results.
I used the complete list to generate our top 250 films with >1000 ICM checks. See here.
I think you mean "< 1000 ICM checks," not ">."

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#311

Post by flaiky » July 10th, 2019, 10:08 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 9:26 pm
flaiky wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 12:22 pm
cinephage wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:16 am
We could work on a list of lesser-known films of the current decade, and I would be curious to see the results.
I used the complete list to generate our top 250 films with >1000 ICM checks. See here.
I think you mean "< 1000 ICM checks," not ">."
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#312

Post by flaiky » July 10th, 2019, 10:30 pm

^Sorry this is the 'sitting drunk on the bus home' response.

<1000 ICM checks indeed.
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#313

Post by Caracortada » July 11th, 2019, 5:52 am

This is a weird discussion, because non-English films are actually fairly well represented. In music and television polls most top lists are 100% English language. Film is the only art/entertainment form where non-English products do reach a rather large audience. People seem to talk about English language movies as if they're all big commercial products, but English language films also include Ken Loach, Lars Von Trier, American independent films etc. As long as there are at least 25% non-English films represented I don't really see a problem.

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#314

Post by Onderhond » July 11th, 2019, 6:11 am

Caracortada wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 5:52 am
Film is the only art/entertainment form where non-English products do reach a rather large audience.
Nintendo begs to differ.

Oh, and on the topic of critics: sigh :facepalm:

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#315

Post by Lammetje » July 11th, 2019, 8:10 am

flaiky wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 10:08 pm
Ebbywebby wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 9:26 pm
flaiky wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 12:22 pm
I used the complete list to generate our top 250 films with >1000 ICM checks. See here.
I think you mean "< 1000 ICM checks," not ">."
:o :satstunned: :guns: :down: :facepalm: :yucky: :mw_confused: :pinch: :ph43r: :ermm: :sweat: :folded: tehe :cowbow: :think: :finger: :rip:
flaiky wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 10:30 pm
^Sorry this is the 'sitting drunk on the bus home' response.

<1000 ICM checks indeed.
You have nothing to be sorry about. Your emoticon post was a thing of beauty. :wub:
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#316

Post by fori » July 11th, 2019, 12:28 pm

Who landed the most checks on the complete list? Anybody get over 50%? Or 40%?

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#317

Post by joachimt » July 11th, 2019, 12:35 pm

fori wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 12:28 pm
Who landed the most checks on the complete list? Anybody get over 50%? Or 40%?
PdA probably......
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#318

Post by Nathan Treadway » July 11th, 2019, 12:40 pm

fori wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 12:28 pm
Who landed the most checks on the complete list? Anybody get over 50%? Or 40%?
You made me look.. I'm at 774 on the overall list, so, nowhere near.


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#320

Post by matthewscott8 » July 11th, 2019, 1:46 pm

fori wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 12:28 pm
Who landed the most checks on the complete list? Anybody get over 50%? Or 40%?
Given a lot of it is just Pedeamb's "I watched this" list, I wouldn't worry about completeness.

Next time we really should have a maximum number of submissions from each person.

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