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iCM Forum's Favourite Films of the Current Decade So Far; 2019 edition; Results

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Re: iCM Forum's Favourite Films of the Current Decade So Far; 2019 edition; Results

#201

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 9:49 am

Ebbywebby wrote:
July 6th, 2019, 6:59 pm
Oh, so Perception de Ambiguity is the one responsible for littering every poll with those damn Björk/Lana del Rey/Lady Gaga videos. Grumble. I wonder how many films on the complete-results list are solely there because of his bloated ballot?
575 movies only received a vote from PdA. Everything from #3521 only he voted for.

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#202

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 9:56 am

Most of the FL movies that do get enough buzz and accessibility to make this list, seem to fall into the same slow filmfestival/arthouse genre, whether it's Asian, South-American, Iranian, French and so on. The distinction between national cinemas seems to be less nowadays. While that kind of movies fits my own taste, I can see when they don't fit someone's taste they will seek out less FL because of that.

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#203

Post by matthewscott8 » July 8th, 2019, 9:59 am

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:23 am
Nathan Treadway wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:28 am
2. When you look at sheer volume, there's more English language films being produced than there are in other languages. So, naturally, there's going to be more English representation on these lists.
Is that still true? Sounds doubtful to me. China is almost at the level of Hollywood, add Japanese films and Bollywood cinema and I don't think the Brexit-hit UK is going to restore the balance. And that's just three other countries.
Hehe, you can add Nigeria in too, I'm told they produce more feature films than Hollywood. Not sure of the quality level though!

I have no problem with going the extra mile to see "foreign language" films, I am about 40% of the way through subtitling a French movie from the 1930s that is extremely dialogue heavy, mostly in slang, and with a low quality audio track. (I have been sat on it for some time admittedly, depression is not helping).

But then you turn on Netflix or Amazon and it's full of English language stuff, and also if you watch the big English language films coming out, you can talk to your non-internet friends.

I am not really a model film buff anymore I admit, it's expensive and time consuming to get to festivals, and lonely to watch films you can't discuss with people because they haven't seen them. I would love to be part of some sort of cinema du look mafia though. I watched Hardcore Henry last night fyi, pretty delirious, loved all the different British stereotype avatars, particularly the WWII army officer. Story and dialogue was a bit "computer gamey" in its flimsiness though.

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#204

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 10:10 am

Can't say I agree with any of it. International cinema has never been as vibrant as today, I think the biggest difference is that because there is so much now and because it doesn't have a decent commercial machine backing it, it's a little harder to find the gems.

My exact problem with classic cinema is its overreliance on either plot or social critique, the latter which is often very tiring, unnuanced and flimsy (Fellini anyone). If plot is such a big problem, I honestly cannot understand why Hitchcock is still a big name, as his films get lost in elaborate storytelling without much in the way of atmosphere to back it up. It's all winks and nudges and did-ya-geddits until some lame twist at the end.

If you follow the critics though, you quickly get stuck into depressive arthouse territory, I give you that. I've said it countless times before, but China went from producing 10 rural/poverty arthouse films per year to a broad and booming film industry that matches Hollywood. There was 15 years of chaos where they tried to figure out who they were supposed to be when making genre and commercial cinema, something that hardly existed there before. If that isn't exciting enough for you, I don't know what is. Then again, if all you get is Bi Gan and some leftover Jias (ie remnants of the 90s), then it might pass you by completely. Doesn't mean it's not happening of course.
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:13 am
Because cinema is (generally speaking) very Western oriented
Well, for some reason it is in the West. Europe bought into the American advertising machine and since then we don't even consider US films to be "foreign" films, even though there's an ocean between us and culturally we're much closer to countries like France, Spain, Italy, … Pan-Asia has its own superstars (people like Andy Lau for example) who are just as big as the average Brad Pitt is over here, the difference is that most Asian people know who Brad Pitt is, but hardly anyone here knows who Andy Lau is.
matthewscott8 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:59 am
I watched Hardcore Henry last night fyi, pretty delirious, loved all the different British stereotype avatars, particularly the WWII army officer. Story and dialogue was a bit "computer gamey" in its flimsiness though.
Oh, definitely, but I don't consider plot/dialogues, even acting, to be a hard requirement for good cinema. It's a film with a rare kind of vibrancy and purity that you don't see around that often. It's also not a film I expect at the top of any composite best-of list, but in my opinion it is a film that should speak loudly to a smaller, dedicated niche who are generally able to push films like that in the bottom regions of lists like this one. But I feel those niches are largely absent on ICM, instead the lower ranking films are just slightly lesser/less known variations of the top-ranking films.
Last edited by Onderhond on July 8th, 2019, 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#205

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 11:35 am

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 10:10 am
Can't say I agree with any of it. International cinema has never been as vibrant as today, I think the biggest difference is that because there is so much now and because it doesn't have a decent commercial machine backing it, it's a little harder to find the gems.

My exact problem with classic cinema is its overreliance on either plot or social critique, the latter which is often very tiring, unnuanced and flimsy (Fellini anyone). If plot is such a big problem, I honestly cannot understand why Hitchcock is still a big name, as his films get lost in elaborate storytelling without much in the way of atmosphere to back it up. It's all winks and nudges and did-ya-geddits until some lame twist at the end.

If you follow the critics though, you quickly get stuck into depressive arthouse territory, I give you that. I've said it countless times before, but China went from producing 10 rural/poverty arthouse films per year to a broad and booming film industry that matches Hollywood. There was 15 years of chaos where they tried to figure out who they were supposed to be when making genre and commercial cinema, something that hardly existed there before. If that isn't exciting enough for you, I don't know what is. Then again, if all you get is Bi Gan and some leftover Jias (ie remnants of the 90s), then it might pass you by completely. Doesn't mean it's not happening of course.
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:13 am
Because cinema is (generally speaking) very Western oriented
Well, for some reason it is in the West. Europe bought into the American advertising machine and since then we don't even consider US films to be "foreign" films, even though there's an ocean between us and culturally we're much closer to countries like France, Spain, Italy, … Pan-Asia has its own superstars (people like Andy Lau for example) who are just as big as the average Brad Pitt is over here, the difference is that most Asian people know who Brad Pitt is, but hardly anyone here knows who Andy Lau is.
Indeed. But that's are the facts of how's it is and therefor represtented in this list.


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#207

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 12:12 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 10:10 am
If you follow the critics though, you quickly get stuck into depressive arthouse territory, I give you that. I've said it countless times before, but China went from producing 10 rural/poverty arthouse films per year to a broad and booming film industry that matches Hollywood. There was 15 years of chaos where they tried to figure out who they were supposed to be when making genre and commercial cinema, something that hardly existed there before. If that isn't exciting enough for you, I don't know what is. Then again, if all you get is Bi Gan and some leftover Jias (ie remnants of the 90s), then it might pass you by completely. Doesn't mean it's not happening of course.
Why/how would that be exciting for almost anyone here? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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#208

Post by flaiky » July 8th, 2019, 12:31 pm

I understand where Ebby is coming from: low-key intimate realism seems to be very trendy in world cinema right now. Luckily I can love that approach if the film is culturally interesting with great characters and performances, but I can see how it would fall flat if you're primarily interested in bold creativity. Still, I think it's strange to be drawing a straight division between "English language cinema" and "Non-English cinema". The range within both is huge (both in style and quality), while there are also clear overlaps, and frankly I think it's absurd to declare that one of these groups is better than the other. Films should just be judged individually.
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#209

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 12:41 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:12 pm
Why/how would that be exciting for almost anyone here? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Why wouldn't it? We're all film nuts aren't we? ICM is one of the craziest/most mental bunch of cinephiles I've ever run across online, but the fixation on "official" makes it very unadventurous.

It certainly is more interesting than the Iranian New Wave of South-Korean Wave, which is just one niche of films making a name for themselves. But apparently, if critics don't champion it and it's not given a name of its own, it's not exciting? :mw_confused:

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#210

Post by Teproc » July 8th, 2019, 12:46 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:41 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:12 pm
Why/how would that be exciting for almost anyone here? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Why wouldn't it? We're all film nuts aren't we? ICM is one of the craziest/most mental bunch of cinephiles I've ever run across online, but the fixation on "official" makes it very unadventurous.

It certainly is more interesting than the Iranian New Wave of South-Korean Wave, which is just one niche of films making a name for themselves. But apparently, if critics don't champion it and it's not given a name of its own, it's not exciting? :mw_confused:
Yet you seem to fall into the reverse simplification: just because critics like it doesn't mean it's not worthy either, does it ? It seems like the only films of value to you are those that other people don't recognize as such, and obviously that's not what you'll find in a poll that is literally a popularity contest.

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#211

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 12:49 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:41 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:12 pm
Why/how would that be exciting for almost anyone here? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Why wouldn't it? We're all film nuts aren't we? ICM is one of the craziest/most mental bunch of cinephiles I've ever run across online, but the fixation on "official" makes it very unadventurous.

It certainly is more interesting than the Iranian New Wave of South-Korean Wave, which is just one niche of films making a name for themselves. But apparently, if critics don't champion it and it's not given a name of its own, it's not exciting? :mw_confused:
It does depend what you mean by "Hollywood". But if you're talking big action films, romcoms, etc. that is already what we're not paying attention to/actively avoiding from Hollywood (with a few exception).

If you mean high quality "auteur craftsman" storytelling - sure. We can always do with some good narrative cinema - though it will never be more exciting than Gan, Jia, etc.

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#212

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 1:06 pm

Also, I don't want to speak for everyone here but what you call "niche of films making a name for themselves" is very close to what quite a few of us live for/get extremely excited about. Standalone masters like Gan Bi is obviously also extremely exciting, but a movement means life.

There is a reason why the 60s and the 70s are generally considered the two best decades by (probably) half the forum.

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#213

Post by Ivan0716 » July 8th, 2019, 1:07 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 10:04 pm
Generally speaking, I just find there's often a difference between new and old foreign films (maybe we can get past the ironic quotes and niggling over the "foreign" and "non-English" distinction, eh?) The new ones tend to be little naturalistic, inspiring tales about one or two vulnerable underdogs finding their way in the world. They seem influenced by reality TV, and the filmmaking follows -- nothing at all interesting happening with the direction. And the older ones are likely to be more cinematic, where the dominant impression is that of a virtuoso director communicating his "vision" of the world. The actors are pieces of a puzzle rather than the central focus. This is a gross generalization, of course, but a lot of my viewings go this way for me. And the contemporary filmmakers with a lot of aggressive style often go into horror, which doesn't interest me much. And I don't like anime, which wasn't as prominent in the past.
I don't really care for this "This list so English" discussion, it's something that gets brought up every year(by the same people?) and I think matthew has covered it pretty well.

Your argument is interesting though, you seemed to have singled out foreign films for something that can be applied to films in general. Hell, I might even argue that it's something that's more prevalent in English films more than others -- what you said more or less describes my problem with most English independent films: Manchester by the Sea, Room, Frances Ha, Three Billboards, Lion...to name a few. I would imagine that these films -- and films similar to these -- bother you for the same reasons Jagten/Oslo/Loveless/etc. do, but if not, why not?

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#214

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 1:07 pm

Teproc wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Yet you seem to fall into the reverse simplification: just because critics like it doesn't mean it's not worthy either, does it ?
Not at all, I called for balance. I get that the higher regions of lists like these are filled with critically acclaimed films, but the lower region shouldn't be as derivative as it is here. I've seen it on other film communities, but not on ICM. To me it's strange, because I've never come across a community where people watch so many films as here.
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:49 pm
It does depend what you mean by "Hollywood". But if you're talking big action films, romcoms, etc. that is already what we're not paying attention to/actively avoiding from Hollywood (with a few exception).

If you mean high quality "auteur craftsman" storytelling - sure. We can always do with some good narrative cinema - though it will never be more exciting than Gan, Jia, etc.
There is more to cinema that popular Hollywood and auteur narrative cinema. It's totally okay if you love the films of Gan and Jia best, but not wanting to look beyond that is a little awkward.
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:06 pm
what you call "niche of films making a name for themselves" is very close to what quite a few of us live for/get extremely excited about. Standalone masters like Gan Bi is obviously also extremely exciting, but a movement means life.
But you don't want to make the effort to pursue them yourself? Movements exist regardless of visibility.

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#215

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » July 8th, 2019, 1:17 pm

The thing about cinewest's comments that bother me is that I thought that based on his comments every year his list would be just fantastic and full of foreign hidden gems, like RogerTheMovieManiac88's list. Turns out his list is just average for the most part.

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#216

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 1:21 pm

I appreciate the input to the discussion about why contemporary Non-English films are not so popular, even in a forum of avowed cinephiles.

I think most of you have hit on some salient points, too, from their lack of marketability or markets, to their lack of an international banner to fly under (St. Gloede mentioned how 20 years ago various national cinemas produced film movements that gave those films some buzz, Onderhond mentioned the international arthouse circuit that somewhat popularizes a group of filmmakers that would otherwise be unheard of, and Mathew Scott spoke about the lack of social buzz around them that might otherwise unite more cinephiles the way someone like Bi Gan has here, etc.).
But on the flip side, many of these films, arthouse or otherwise, are just culturally and aesthetically different enough that they don’t seem to speak to western audiences unless they employ enough western stylization structure, and content to cross cultural boundaries.
To this point, it is somewhat ironic that some of the most popular filmmakers, cinematographers, and performers these days are “foreign” by origin, but have somehow been successful enough in anglophiling their work enough to make films in English, even receive commissions for upcoming miniseries.
What is false is that the FL films are not available. Even though filmmakers like Bi Gan receive scant or no theatrical release, people who have an interest in other approaches to narrative film have been able to source their films, and new production companies like Netflix and amazon have commissioned numerous FL films for their platforms.
In fact, much of what I have seen over the past 4 years in China are films that have screened on these platforms, many of them by relatively new women filmmakers, some of whom appear on my own submission list for the 2010’s.
One example is a film called Vazante, which I have touted on a half dozen occasions over the past 6 months in various threads, and while it’s Brazilian colonial themes may not be of much interest to some, its cinematic qualities make it very worthwhile.
Up until now, no one else here has commented on it, and probably for all of the reasons aforementioned.
Last edited by cinewest on July 8th, 2019, 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#217

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 1:25 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:07 pm
Teproc wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Yet you seem to fall into the reverse simplification: just because critics like it doesn't mean it's not worthy either, does it ?
Not at all, I called for balance. I get that the higher regions of lists like these are filled with critically acclaimed films, but the lower region shouldn't be as derivative as it is here. I've seen it on other film communities, but not on ICM. To me it's strange, because I've never come across a community where people watch so many films as here.
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:49 pm
It does depend what you mean by "Hollywood". But if you're talking big action films, romcoms, etc. that is already what we're not paying attention to/actively avoiding from Hollywood (with a few exception).

If you mean high quality "auteur craftsman" storytelling - sure. We can always do with some good narrative cinema - though it will never be more exciting than Gan, Jia, etc.
There is more to cinema that poulpar Hollywood and auteur narrative cinema. It's totally okay if you love the films of Gan and Jia best, but not wanting to look beyond that is a little awkward.
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:06 pm
what you call "niche of films making a name for themselves" is very close to what quite a few of us live for/get extremely excited about. Standalone masters like Gan Bi is obviously also extremely exciting, but a movement means life.
But you don't want to make the effort to pursue them yourself? Movements exist regardless of visibility.
What is awkward? Maybe you're not selling this right. What is exciting coming out of China? You were advertising Hollywood style films, which tends to imply lay and boring commercial cinema (with the only upside being the occasional craftsman). Like I said, I'm up for the craftsmen.

If you want me to discover the Chinese Adam Sandler, Meg Ryan or Jason Statham, no thank you.

As for your last point: This is confusing! What in my replies made you assume I, or anyone else here don't love exploring cinema? Especially if there is a new and exciting movement (or an old and exciting movement largely unexplored - got a batch of Yogoslav Black Wave films I'm aiming to explore shortly). Movements are exactly what many of us are sad are missing - so if you know of anything let us know - spread the word.

We have to hear about these movements/films somewhere.

If we hear about it here, via a list, via S&S, Cahiers/Critics or at a festival is not really relevant - but the word/buzz has to reach us, which means it has to start somewhere.

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#218

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 1:44 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:25 pm
What is awkward? Maybe you're not selling this right. What is exciting coming out of China? You were advertising Hollywood style films, which tends to imply lay and boring commercial cinema (with the only upside being the occasional craftsman). Like I said, I'm up for the craftsmen.
No it doesn't really. First of all I said commercial and genre cinema, also including everything in between. To make comparisons to US cinema, that's the Hardcore Henrys (which isn't even US but EN-language), mother!s, Wes Andersons, Scott Pilgrims, Swiss Army Mans, Dave Made Mazes and whatnot. It isn't dark and sullen arthouse, it's no Sandler either. It's genre mixed with either arthouse/commercial sensibilities and made by people with a very definite and unique style. You don't have to like it, but it's all there. To see a country experiment and find its own voice with all of that is truly exciting. It's also much nicer to be in the middle of it when it happens, than look back at it and have a definite idea of what it's going to become already.
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:25 pm
As for your last point: This is confusing! What in my replies made you assume I, or anyone else here don't love exploring cinema? Especially if there is a new and exciting movement (or an old and exciting movement largely unexplored - got a batch of Yogoslav Black Wave films I'm aiming to explore shortly). Movements are exactly what many of us are sad are missing - so if you know of anything let us know - spread the word.
Been there, done that. It did nothing.

But really, you don't need to "hear about movements". It's never been easier to scout for films. It takes me 2 minutes a day to keep up with Asian cinema through my faved torrent board. Everything that's there comes with plot description, poster, screencaps and is immediately available. Picking out the gems from Netflix and Prime is just as easy. The time that you needed someone to point you to a movement is long gone. That's not very adventurous, hence my remark.
Last edited by Onderhond on July 8th, 2019, 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#219

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 2:01 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:17 pm
The thing about cinewest's comments that bother me is that I thought that based on his comments every year his list would be just fantastic and full of foreign hidden gems, like RogerTheMovieManiac88's list. Turns out his list is just average for the most part.
Other than taking a personal dig at my film taste, I don't see how your comment adds to the discussion. I happen to have very little in common with Onderhond's film taste, yet I find many of his comments relevant to what transpires on these boards, as well as pertinent to most discussions, unlike yours, here.

As for my list, though I haven't seen as much this decade as in the 2000's, due mostly to changes in my own residence (from the film viewing mecca that is San Francisco to Brasilia and now China) and family situation (I am now married with baby twins) I think that the top 50-60 on my list are pretty special (no claims made to their being "hidden gems"), even though the top 250 here ignores 60% of them.

Coming to your submission list, while there are some I didn't like as much as you, I will say that it's definitely one of the more interesting ones on the submission thread, at least to me, and I added quite a few to my "to see" list when I first came across it. So props for that, even as your comment is trollish.
Last edited by cinewest on July 8th, 2019, 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#220

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:44 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:25 pm
What is awkward? Maybe you're not selling this right. What is exciting coming out of China? You were advertising Hollywood style films, which tends to imply lay and boring commercial cinema (with the only upside being the occasional craftsman). Like I said, I'm up for the craftsmen.
No it doesn't really. First of all I said commercial and genre cinema, also including everything in between. To make comparisons to US cinema, that's the Hardcore Henrys (which isn't even US but EN-language), mother!s, Wes Andersons, Scott Pilgrims, Swiss Army Mans, Dave Made Mazes and whatnot. It isn't dark and sullen arthouse, it's no Sandler either. It's genre mixed with either arthouse/commercial sensibilities and made by people with a very definite and unique style. You don't have to like it, but it's all there. To see a country experiment and find its own voice with all of that is truly exciting. It's also much nicer to be in the middle of it when it happens, than look back at it and have a definite idea of what it's going to become already.
So, Auteur and Cult cinema, again sign me up for the craftsmen, and auteurs (I may be interested in the cults, but less likely).
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:25 pm
As for your last point: This is confusing! What in my replies made you assume I, or anyone else here don't love exploring cinema? Especially if there is a new and exciting movement (or an old and exciting movement largely unexplored - got a batch of Yogoslav Black Wave films I'm aiming to explore shortly). Movements are exactly what many of us are sad are missing - so if you know of anything let us know - spread the word.
Been there, done that. It did nothing.

But really, you don't need to "hear about movements". It's never been easier to scout for films. It takes me 2 minutes a day to keep up with Asian cinema through my faved torrent board. Everything that's there comes with plot description, poster, screencaps and is immediately available. Picking out the gems from Netflix and Prime is just as easy. The time that you needed someone to point you to a movement is long gone. That's not very adventurous, hence my remark.
You really shouldn't be advertising torrenting here.

But even in that case "you are hearing about it". Someone is uploading it and you see if you are interested. Seeing visuals, a trailer, description, etc. is exactly what you get here or on other film related media.

I think the main "issue" here is that you're not watching older films, plus, you have found your niche, and you forget "recent films" stand for a very small portion of what the rest of us watches. I will often jump on a film I know very little about (though it will rarely be from this decade, and typically be affiliated with, like for you, a niche I like). I sadly don't have a current niche I am attracted to.

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#221

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 8th, 2019, 2:15 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:21 pm
I appreciate the input to the discussion about why contemporary Non-English films are not so popular, even in a forum of avowed cinephiles.

I think most of you have hit on some salient points, too, from their lack of marketability or markets, to their lack of an international banner to fly under (St. Gloede mentioned how 20 years ago various national cinemas produced film movements that gave those films some buzz, Onderhond mentioned the international arthouse circuit that somewhat popularizes a group of filmmakers that would otherwise be unheard of, and Mathew Scott spoke about the lack of social buzz around them that might otherwise untie more cinephiles the way someone like Bi Gan has here, etc.).
But on the flip side, many of these films, arthouse or otherwise are just culturally and aesthetically different enough that they don’t seem to speak to western audiences unless they employ enough western stylization structure, and content to cross cultural boundaries.
To this point, it is somewhat ironic that some of the most popular filmmakers, cinematographers, and performers these days are “foreign” by origin, but have somehow been successful enough in anglophiling their work enough to make films in English, even receive commissions for upcoming miniseries.
What is false is that the FL films are not available. Even though filmmakers like Bi Gan receive scant or no theatrical release, people who have an interest in other approaches to narrative film have been able to source their films, and new production companies like Netflix and amazon have commissioned numerous FL films for their platforms.
In fact, much of what I have seen over the past 4 years in China are films that have screened on these platforms, many of them by relatively new women filmmakers, some of whom appear on my own submission list for the 2010’s.
One example is a film called Vazante, which I have touted on a half dozen occasions over the past 6 months in various threads, and while it’s Brazilian colonial themes may not be of much interest to some, its cinematic qualities make it very worthwhile.
Up until now, no one else here has commented on it, and probably for all of the reasons aforementioned.
I think the point isn't that FL aren't available, it's that they are less available. Of course streaming services have increased the availability of all kind of movies. (And if one actively goes searching through other channels the availability is even higher). But still many FL movies will never be shown on such popular streaming services, (the changes of f.e. a Raul Ruiz movie being added to Netflix are very slim to non-existent) or shown in theatres (and even if they are not everyone is capable of seeing them in those theatres). This combined with all other factors mentioned before (lack of marketability, lack of (social) buzz, a focus on certain foreign filmmakers, the scattering of votes, the focus of this forum on "official" films, people giving priority to watching other kind/older movies) results in an underrepresentation of FL movies in this list.

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#222

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 2:34 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:07 pm
I think the main "issue" here is that you're not watching older films.
I am. About 450 films (pre 70s), which isn't a whole lot (by this community's standard), but it is a sizable sampling group. I'm not saying people shouldn't be pursuing the films they love, it's not even about individuals, it's about the community as a whole that is too homogenous.
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:07 pm
you forget "recent films" stand for a very small portion of what the rest of us watches
I didn't forget, I just don't see why this is (community-wide). I see arguments I can't match with reality and that I don't see happening in other communities.

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#223

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 3:33 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:34 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:07 pm
I think the main "issue" here is that you're not watching older films.
I am. About 450 films (pre 70s), which isn't a whole lot (by this community's standard), but it is a sizable sampling group. I'm not saying people shouldn't be pursuing the films they love, it's not even about individuals, it's about the community as a whole that is too homogenous.
450 is more than most people can watch in a year, maybe even two, in which case you can easily by extremely adventurous.

If you are seeing a few hundred films you will be primarily trying to explore what is discussed. If you are watching 2000+ films you are in a reasonably unique position, and will of course have nearly unlimited time to explore.
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:07 pm
you forget "recent films" stand for a very small portion of what the rest of us watches
I didn't forget, I just don't see why this is (community-wide). I see arguments I can't match with reality and that I don't see happening in other communities.
:blink:

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#224

Post by joachimt » July 8th, 2019, 3:33 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
June 29th, 2019, 5:30 pm
Reserved for when I remember to copy-paste the lists links here.
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#225

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 3:34 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:33 pm
450 is more than most people can watch in a year, maybe even two, in which case you can easily by extremely adventurous.
450 in total, not per year of course.

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#226

Post by St. Gloede » July 8th, 2019, 3:37 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:34 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:33 pm
450 is more than most people can watch in a year, maybe even two, in which case you can easily by extremely adventurous.
450 in total, not per year of course.
Fair enough. :D

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#227

Post by GruesomeTwosome » July 8th, 2019, 3:47 pm

Seen: 153/250 (and I've seen 650 of the films in the complete list)
Highest unseen film: #1 A Separation (seems kinda crazy, I know, heh)
Highest favorite: #2 The Grand Budapest Hotel
Highest dislike: #12 The Tree of Life
Position of my #1: #10 Boyhood
My highest vote that didn't make the list: #267 The Place Beyond the Pines (my #12)
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#228

Post by joachimt » July 8th, 2019, 3:47 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:01 pm
I think that the top 50-60 on my list are pretty special (no claims made to their being "hidden gems"), even though the top 250 here ignores 60% of them.
Of your top 50 64% of the titles is included in this top 250. Only 36% isn't. How can you claim 60% is ignored?
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#229

Post by flaiky » July 8th, 2019, 3:51 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:21 pm
But on the flip side, many of these films, arthouse or otherwise, are just culturally and aesthetically different enough that they don’t seem to speak to western audiences unless they employ enough western stylization structure, and content to cross cultural boundaries.
Are you including this forum among that? It's a bit irritating if so. Almost all of the regulars here watch and embrace films from all over the world, with a whole range of styles. This place has some of the most hardcore cinephiles I've ever encountered.
One example is a film called Vazante, which I have touted on a half dozen occasions over the past 6 months in various threads, and while it’s Brazilian colonial themes may not be of much interest to some, its cinematic qualities make it very worthwhile.
Up until now, no one else here has commented on it, and probably for all of the reasons aforementioned.
I'm sure we all have favourites that we wish were better known. One of my top films from the past 5 years has only 567 votes on imdb and a 5.3 average. I guess most people didn't like it as much as me. Oh well. I'm just glad I found it. Anyway, Vazante sounds like my sort of film so I have found a copy, and if I like it, I will pimp it for the next ICMFF (which is a dedicated effort to promote lesser known recent films from all over the world. It's not perfect, but it's something, and you're welcome to join in).
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:01 pm
I think that the top 50-60 on my list are pretty special (no claims made to their being "hidden gems"), even though the top 250 here ignores 60% of them.
I could be wrong, as I've just gone through it using my memory, but I think 27 of your top 60 made the top 250. Around 50% is probably average for most people.* 6 of your top 10 made the top 25, but you're still not happy. I'm pretty sure that's more than I would have if I managed to make a top 10.

*Ah, Joachim just touched on this since I wrote this reply. It's even more than 50% apparently.
Last edited by flaiky on July 8th, 2019, 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#230

Post by cinephage » July 8th, 2019, 4:09 pm

Seen: 205/250 (1083/3983)

Highest unseen film: #37 El abrazo de la serpiente
Highest favorite: #2 The Grand Budapest Hotel
Highest dislike: I don't have any dislike on that list, but I didn't care for Under the Skin. Maybe I should rewatch it...
Highest film in the list I didn't vote for : #3 Jagten

Position of my #1: #31 Roma
My highest vote that didn't make the list: #327 L'Apollonide (Souvenirs de la maison close) (my #2)

Film I voted for with the smallest number of checks : #162 (in my list)) Saving Sally - 8 checks in total

My tastes vs the global consensus : 93 titles of my 250 favorites were included in the final list, which makes 37,20 %

I also note I had 86 films that are on no official list at all...
Last edited by cinephage on July 8th, 2019, 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#231

Post by beasterne » July 8th, 2019, 4:28 pm

Movies seen: 110/250
Movies I voted for: 52/250
Highest movie unseen: #5 The Act of Killing (2014)
Position of my #1: #22 Mad Max: Fury Road (2015)
Highest movie I didn't vote for: #1 A Separation (2011)
Highest movie I don't like: #19 Melancholia (2011)
My highest vote that didn't make the list: #256 Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (my #13--probably too high now that I'm re-evaluating my list but oh well, that's a problem for next year)

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#232

Post by Lammetje » July 8th, 2019, 4:33 pm

Lammetje wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 12:34 pm
maxwelldeux wrote:
July 6th, 2019, 11:49 pm
Apparently, I don't watch a lot of recent stuff.

Seen: 88/250; 354/3629
That's still a lot more than I have seen: 38/250 and 128/3983. Among those 128 are No Country for Old Men (2007) and Le renard et l'enfant (2007) though. :/ Who voted for those movies? And look at #3917!
So these pre-2010 movies are staying on the list then?
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#233

Post by Ebbywebby » July 8th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 9:49 am
Ebbywebby wrote:
July 6th, 2019, 6:59 pm
Oh, so Perception de Ambiguity is the one responsible for littering every poll with those damn Björk/Lana del Rey/Lady Gaga videos. Grumble. I wonder how many films on the complete-results list are solely there because of his bloated ballot?
575 movies only received a vote from PdA. Everything from #3521 only he voted for.
Oh, phooey. So one in seven films on the "complete" list comes from PdA. That's awful.

If the shared "complete" list was instead a list of every film that received more than one vote, how short would the list be? I've previously wondered if this would be a better policy with sharing these poll results -- it might eliminate many of the music videos, RiffTrax/MST3K episodes, anime TV shows, stand-up comedy specials, novelty animated shorts (David Firth...groan), etc. that muck up the lists.
flaiky wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 12:31 pm
I understand where Ebby is coming from: low-key intimate realism seems to be very trendy in world cinema right now.
That's a good, concise way of putting it...yes.

I have a hard time sifting through all the posts and plucking out the ones that I owe a response, but I'm trying.

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#234

Post by zuma » July 8th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Seen: 225/250
Highest unseen film: #73 Long Day's Journey Into Night (Just have not go to it yet)
Highest favorite: #1 A Separation
Highest dislike: #99 Take Shelter (of 8 total in the list, mostly near the end)
Position of my #1: #46 Oslo, August 31st
My highest vote that didn't make the list: #543 La Casa Lobo (my #3)

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#235

Post by Ebbywebby » July 8th, 2019, 4:40 pm

Ivan0716 wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:07 pm
Your argument is interesting though, you seemed to have singled out foreign films for something that can be applied to films in general. Hell, I might even argue that it's something that's more prevalent in English films more than others -- what you said more or less describes my problem with most English independent films: Manchester by the Sea, Room, Frances Ha, Three Billboards, Lion...to name a few. I would imagine that these films -- and films similar to these -- bother you for the same reasons Jagten/Oslo/Loveless/etc. do, but if not, why not?
Well, I didn't much like Manchester by the Sea and Frances Ha, and I haven't even bothered to see Lion, so.... I don't think I'd put Three Billboards in this category, though -- a film with a lot of interwoven stories and a certain scope....

And I liked Room a lot more than expected, so that was an observed exception.

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#236

Post by joachimt » July 8th, 2019, 5:03 pm

flaiky wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:51 pm
*Ah, Joachim just touched on this since I wrote this reply. It's even more than 50% apparently.
Let's add:
55% of his complete list (top 100) made it.
For me that number is 59%, so not much difference. Most of the movies not making it are in the unranked part of my list.
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#237

Post by cinewest » July 8th, 2019, 5:03 pm

flaiky wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:51 pm
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 1:21 pm
But on the flip side, many of these films, arthouse or otherwise, are just culturally and aesthetically different enough that they don’t seem to speak to western audiences unless they employ enough western stylization structure, and content to cross cultural boundaries.
Are you including this forum among that? It's a bit irritating if so. Almost all of the regulars here watch and embrace films from all over the world, with a whole range of styles. This place has some of the most hardcore cinephiles I've ever encountered.
One example is a film called Vazante, which I have touted on a half dozen occasions over the past 6 months in various threads, and while it’s Brazilian colonial themes may not be of much interest to some, its cinematic qualities make it very worthwhile.
Up until now, no one else here has commented on it, and probably for all of the reasons aforementioned.
I'm sure we all have favourites that we wish were better known. One of my top films from the past 5 years has only 567 votes on imdb and a 5.3 average. I guess most people didn't like it as much as me. Oh well. I'm just glad I found it. Anyway, Vazante sounds like my sort of film so I have found a copy, and if I like it, I will pimp it for the next ICMFF (which is a dedicated effort to promote lesser known recent films from all over the world. It's not perfect, but it's something, and you're welcome to join in).
cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:01 pm
I think that the top 50-60 on my list are pretty special (no claims made to their being "hidden gems"), even though the top 250 here ignores 60% of them.
I could be wrong, as I've just gone through it using my memory, but I think 27 of your top 60 made the top 250. Around 50% is probably average for most people.* 6 of your top 10 made the top 25, but you're still not happy. I'm pretty sure that's more than I would have if I managed to make a top 10.

*Ah, Joachim just touched on this since I wrote this reply. It's even more than 50% apparently.
It’s too bad that my questions seem to meet with defensiveness by some.

I have raised a discussion point that grew out of a conversation between Ebbywebby and myself based on something he said that isn’t about what is or isn’t on my list, but about the list generated by 80 or so participants. I have only referred to my own list as a counter example that I am familiar with (if I miscalculated the comparison it was lack of enough care on my part) and in answer to a poster’s attack upon it.

I imagine that this is probably how some forum members see some of my own comments, but what I am trying to investigate and explore with the help of participants here is why contemporary FL films tend to generate such little interest (outside of a certain few - obviously A Separation and the overrated Jagten near the top, but only the films of Bi Gan and Jauja as out of the ordinary favorites among the top 100).

At the same time, there appears to be cultish approval of certain filmmakers who work in English, and have scored with multiple titles fairly high up.

As we both agree, this is a forum full of cinephiles who have seen tons of movies and for that reason My questions and comments were born.
Last edited by cinewest on July 8th, 2019, 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#238

Post by cinephage » July 8th, 2019, 5:12 pm

mightysparks wrote:
July 6th, 2019, 11:42 pm
Lol there is no horror mafia, there are about 5 of us. I wish there was so I would be happier with the poll results. And the tiny few of us who do exist (and happened to vote on this poll) don’t agree on everything anyway. Most of the films on my list that didn’t make it were horror or genre films. And I didn’t vote for Get Out.
I included 19 horror titles in my list, and it does look like the horror mafia has a hard time agreeing on recent horror.
Get out, It follows, La piel que habito, I saw the Devil and The Cabin in the Woods made it, though...

Too bad for The Conjuring, Kill List, Last train to Busan, Rubber, Twixt, The Woman, Citadel, or Bernard Rose's Frankenstein...

I also included I am a hero, but since I proposed it for Doubling the Canon, I've seen it wouldn't gain a lot of support from the ICM Forum members. Too bad...
I will try to support Mon Mon Monsters, by Giddens Ko, maybe it will work better...

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#239

Post by Ebbywebby » July 8th, 2019, 5:24 pm

cinewest wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:19 am

1) While I agree that many FL films are small, naturalistic tales (made on small budgets), some of the most popular EL independents on the board could be described in this way.

2) I disagree that the best contemporary FL films are not very cinematic. In fact, my attraction to them is precisely because I find them more interesting "as cinema" than most EL films these days, so maybe you are watching the wrong ones (I actually recommended a few good ones on the Amazon Prime discovery thread).

My own taste leans strongly towards movies that are creative and imaginative in their development of a "cinematic" narrative that makes use of the medium to tap into things (ideas, feelings,experiences, sensations) that not only seem fresh but unpredictable to me in the course of bringing something to life. Not a big fan of Jagten, myself, but I did like Oslo, August 31st, which I thought was very "cinematic." (65-70% of my list was FL, by the way).
1) Well, perhaps I didn't vote for many of those popular, naturalistic EL independents either. I liked "Boyhood," but not as much as many other people. I didn't swoon for Linklater's "Before" series. I didn't rank "Moonlight," "The Florida Project," "Lady Bird," "Eighth Grade" or "Nebraska" either, and I've never found a reason to become a Noah Baumbach fan. But I do like Mike Leigh.

2) That Amazon Prime thread was a bit frustrating for me, because I hoped people understood that I was asking for "free with Amazon Prime" films and not ones that require an additional charge. It was also tougher because people tended to cite the foreign-language titles rather than whatever English title Amazon uses. As a result, I've been slow to sort through the responses. I did watch "The White Meadows" and probably a couple of other suggestions by coincidence.

I skimmed through the non-English titles on your 2010s list that I haven't seen. Without going too deep into studying reviews, my hot-take instinct would be to lump them into these categories.

Absolutely: The Turin Horse (one of the 66 features in my watchlist)

Sure, I'd Watch This: Night Across the Street (I once started a thread asking for Ruiz recommendations), Nocturama (when I had Netflix, this was unwatched in my queue), Happy End (I've noticed it's on Showtime and already planned to see it), The Look of Silence (maybe the same Netflix story again)

Maybe: Once Upon a Time in Anatolia, My Joy, Jauja, Li'l Quinquin, Victoria, Certified Copy, Caesar Must Die, Men & Chicken, Winter Sleep (I think I had this in my Netflix queue too)

Maybe, But Leaning Negative: Tabu, A Touch of Sin, Home from Home: Chronicle of a Vision, In the Fog, Paradise, Leviathan, Neighboring Sounds

Not Likely: Burning, Norwegian Wood, Faust, War Witch, Elena, The Pearl Button, Pieta, Incendies, Timbuktu, Foxtrot, My Golden Days, Violent, Even the Rain, Vazante, Poetry, I Am Not Madame Bovary, Lore, Miss Baia, Black Coal Thin Ice, The Grandmaster, Los Perros, Angels Wear White, Whores' Glory, Casa Grande, Bullhead, Kubo & the Two Strings

Films I tried and quit: Zama, Graduation. Graduation is the epitome of my previously stated complaint. Really unbearable.

I'm not familiar with many of these directors, which makes my reactions harder to predict.

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#240

Post by Onderhond » July 8th, 2019, 6:00 pm

cinephage wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:12 pm
mightysparks wrote:
July 6th, 2019, 11:42 pm
Lol there is no horror mafia, there are about 5 of us. I wish there was so I would be happier with the poll results. And the tiny few of us who do exist (and happened to vote on this poll) don’t agree on everything anyway. Most of the films on my list that didn’t make it were horror or genre films. And I didn’t vote for Get Out.
I included 19 horror titles in my list, and it does look like the horror mafia has a hard time agreeing on recent horror.
Get out, It follows, La piel que habito, I saw the Devil and The Cabin in the Woods made it, though...

Too bad for The Conjuring, Kill List, Last train to Busan, Rubber, Twixt, The Woman, Citadel, or Bernard Rose's Frankenstein...

I also included I am a hero, but since I proposed it for Doubling the Canon, I've seen it wouldn't gain a lot of support from the ICM Forum members. Too bad...
I will try to support Mon Mon Monsters, by Giddens Ko, maybe it will work better...
Critically approved vs purer genre fare. (apart from Busan maybe). One group has a fairly big chance to make it, the other group is pretty much hopeless.

But yeah, horror fans are an excited bunch, but getting them to agree on things can be tough. I really liked MMM, but not enough to make my list. I don't think many others have seen it here.

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