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iCM Forum's Favourite Fantasy Movies; Nominations

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Lonewolf2003
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Re: iCM Forum's Favourite Fantasy Movies; Nominations

#41

Post by Lonewolf2003 » February 2nd, 2019, 12:07 am

Onderhond wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 12:02 am
mathiasa wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 11:41 pm
but I don’t see much value in simply stating that movie x does not belong in genre y,
That's okay. Someone else asked me specifically to give some examples so I did.
mathiasa wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 11:41 pm
if no sufficient explanation and no outline of one‘s own definition of a genre is given.
Trying to define a genre is an exercise in futility that will last you several pages with no conclusive outcome. Like French grammar, there is one rule that covers 40% of all cases and there are 60% exceptions to that rule. Even so, there are many general conventions and I think the video rental store thought experiment is a pretty firm guide for that.
Indeed and that’s why I don’t try to do so in these polls.

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#42

Post by Onderhond » February 2nd, 2019, 12:07 am

mathiasa wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 11:56 pm
From what I read here, I get the gutfeeling that some posters are not fully acquainted with the numerous subgenres that Fantasy has. For example: According to my and many others (including Wikipedia) comprehensible judgement, The Evil Dead franchise belongs to the sub-genre Dark Fantasy, as is quite obvious from the definition given in the wikipedia article:


„Dark fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy literary, artistic, and cinematic works that incorporate darker and frightening themes of fantasy. It also often combines fantasy with elements of horror or has a gloomy, dark (or grimdark) atmosphere, or a sense of horror and dread.“
First line on the wikipedia page: Evil Dead is an American horror film franchise.


I'm not saying it doesn't contain any traces of fantasy or couldn't be part of some crossover niche, but if you want to find it in a store you look for it next to the 300 other horror films, not in the LOTR section.

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#43

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » February 2nd, 2019, 12:11 am

mathiasa wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 11:56 pm
From what I read here, I get the gutfeeling that some posters are not fully acquainted with the numerous subgenres that Fantasy has. For example: According to my and many others (including Wikipedia) comprehensible judgement, The Evil Dead franchise belongs to the sub-genre Dark Fantasy, as is quite obvious from the definition given in the wikipedia article:


„Dark fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy literary, artistic, and cinematic works that incorporate darker and frightening themes of fantasy. It also often combines fantasy with elements of horror or has a gloomy, dark (or grimdark) atmosphere, or a sense of horror and dread.“
It isn't obvious because the way I recall The Evil Dead is that it's a horror film that uses elements of fantasy. What's primary and what's secondary, and how it's used, makes the distinction. Army of Darkness flipped things around so I'd call that one Dark Fantasy. If people voted for them I'd be more annoyed because I think they're bad films than because they're not fantasy, and I generally agree with you that we should be lax and let people vote for what they think applies.

I asked for examples because I was curious where people were drawing the distinction between Fantasy and not really Fantasy.

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#44

Post by mathiasa » February 2nd, 2019, 12:49 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 12:11 am
mathiasa wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 11:56 pm
From what I read here, I get the gutfeeling that some posters are not fully acquainted with the numerous subgenres that Fantasy has. For example: According to my and many others (including Wikipedia) comprehensible judgement, The Evil Dead franchise belongs to the sub-genre Dark Fantasy, as is quite obvious from the definition given in the wikipedia article:


„Dark fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy literary, artistic, and cinematic works that incorporate darker and frightening themes of fantasy. It also often combines fantasy with elements of horror or has a gloomy, dark (or grimdark) atmosphere, or a sense of horror and dread.“
It isn't obvious because the way I recall The Evil Dead is that it's a horror film that uses elements of fantasy. What's primary and what's secondary, and how it's used, makes the distinction. Army of Darkness flipped things around so I'd call that one Dark Fantasy. If people voted for them I'd be more annoyed because I think they're bad films than because they're not fantasy, and I generally agree with you that we should be lax and let people vote for what they think applies.

I asked for examples because I was curious where people were drawing the distinction between Fantasy and not really Fantasy.
I think you misunderstood me: My point was not that it's obvious that Evil Dead is Dark Fantasy, but that it's obvious that many people understandably categorize it as Dark Fantasy (including myself) based on prevalent definitions of that subgenre and that therefore for those people The Evil Dead franchise is eligible.

Also, it's not as easy as comparing the horror elements to the fantasy elements and then deciding what's primary and secondary, as Horror is part of Dark Fantasy. It's a subtle line and I have no problems with people not voting for Evil Dead because they feel it's too horror. I'm simply saying that substantiated views that see them as belonging to Dark Fantasy should also be respected (although I now realize it may have been nobody's intent to disrespect that).

@onderhond: I was referring to this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... tasy_films

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#45

Post by Ivan0716 » February 2nd, 2019, 1:45 am

mathiasa wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 11:41 pm
First you’re saying the rules are so subjective that anything goes then you allege that you can estimate whether other voters followed the rules by simply looking at their lists. That‘s indeed facepalm-worthy, and also a little bit rude.
Isn't that kind of my point? One person's interpretation of it means nothing to another? Anyway I don't mean to rude or to imply that other people lists aren't "valid", I'm just not very eloquent with words. Apologies to everyone if I came across as dismissive of their lists.
Lonewolf‘s decision to tell people they should focus on what they themselves (rather than what you, onderhond or the imdb tags) think is fantasy was the correct thing to do and I‘m very happy about it.
I agree, and I have no problem whatsoever with the way Lonewolf does things, I just don't understand what we're looking for here. Making a list of what I personally consider to be fantasy would be easy but obviously there's the idea flying about that some films can be considered "not fantasy enough" by others (which can be ignored, but if I'm going to do this, I want to make an effort). I'm kind of baffled by the idea that the fantasy elements in a film is somehow quantifiable and with enough of it be considered the main genre of the film. The discussion on magical realism just confused me even more, I mean strictly speaking it's a different thing from fantasy altogether, so I understand if it's not allowed, but then it is also said that if there are enough magical elements involved, it becomes fantasy and is allowed. Which is why I raised the question:
Is this a poll for films with fantasy elements or a poll for films belonging to the fantasy genre?
If it's films with fantasy elements then why does there have to a threshold on how much fantasy there is? If it's films belonging to the fantasy genre then I don't see how it could work without a strict guideline on what is and isn't allowed because to me fantasy just seems like such a blanket-genre.

I'm quite aware that I seem to be the only one who has a problem with this, but I'm not doing this just to be difficult, I'm actually very interested in what other people's thoughts are on this whole thing.

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#46

Post by mjf314 » February 2nd, 2019, 1:53 am

Here's my list (ranked): https://www.imdb.com/list/ls043156699/

@Anime fans: Which anime mini-series are you voting for? I'm voting for Mononoke, Madoka Magica, and Haibane Renmei, but I might be forgetting some good ones.

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#47

Post by Opio » February 2nd, 2019, 6:55 am

Ivan0716 wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 1:45 am
I agree, and I have no problem whatsoever with the way Lonewolf does things, I just don't understand what we're looking for here. Making a list of what I personally consider to be fantasy would be easy but obviously there's the idea flying about that some films can be considered "not fantasy enough" by others (which can be ignored, but if I'm going to do this, I want to make an effort).
[...]
I'm quite aware that I seem to be the only one who has a problem with this, but I'm not doing this just to be difficult, I'm actually very interested in what other people's thoughts are on this whole thing.
You're not the only one trying to figure this out -- I've noticed several people saying they're not making lists, perhaps because they don't have the time nor the inclination to determine which films are fantasy by the prevailing forum consensus. Or maybe they just want others to give them recommendations here.

It seems like a good proportion of animated films will make it.

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#48

Post by 3eyes » February 2nd, 2019, 2:27 pm

I'm having a hard time with this - made a long list of stuff that I consider fantasy but most of it is not so labeled by IMDb or ICM. Such as Die Blechtrommel, which is on the "Impossible worlds" list. Well, I/we have several weeks to figure this out.
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#49

Post by Onderhond » February 2nd, 2019, 3:20 pm

mjf314 wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 1:53 am
@Anime fans: Which anime mini-series are you voting for? I'm voting for Mononoke, Madoka Magica, and Haibane Renmei, but I might be forgetting some good ones.
Not voting for any as I don't include series, but Kino no Tabi would be my top vote.

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#50

Post by mathiasa » February 2nd, 2019, 3:51 pm

Opio wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 6:55 am
Ivan0716 wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 1:45 am
I agree, and I have no problem whatsoever with the way Lonewolf does things, I just don't understand what we're looking for here. Making a list of what I personally consider to be fantasy would be easy but obviously there's the idea flying about that some films can be considered "not fantasy enough" by others (which can be ignored, but if I'm going to do this, I want to make an effort).
[...]
I'm quite aware that I seem to be the only one who has a problem with this, but I'm not doing this just to be difficult, I'm actually very interested in what other people's thoughts are on this whole thing.
You're not the only one trying to figure this out -- I've noticed several people saying they're not making lists, perhaps because they don't have the time nor the inclination to determine which films are fantasy by the prevailing forum consensus. Or maybe they just want others to give them recommendations here.

It seems like a good proportion of animated films will make it.
The rules basically say that for this Fantasy movie poll you should vote for what you think are Fantasy movies. Do any of you have any suggestions as to how Lonewolf could have made the rules any easier for you?
Personally, I don't see how one could make the rules any easier without taking the decision away from you. I also think Lonewolf is right in saying that people should not participate if they can't decide for themselves what a Fantasy movie looks like. But I also think you guys are overthinking the issue and setting the bar very high for yourself. Just make a list and go with your intuition, I'm sure it'll come out good. I, and I'm sure others, would very much appreciate your lists.

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#51

Post by mjf314 » February 2nd, 2019, 10:01 pm

Onderhond wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 3:20 pm
mjf314 wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 1:53 am
@Anime fans: Which anime mini-series are you voting for? I'm voting for Mononoke, Madoka Magica, and Haibane Renmei, but I might be forgetting some good ones.
Not voting for any as I don't include series, but Kino no Tabi would be my top vote.
From what I remember, Kino no Tabi is more sci-fi than fantasy, but I watched it a long time ago so maybe I'm forgetting some parts.

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#52

Post by monclivie » February 2nd, 2019, 11:44 pm

3 Women, Vertigo, Ran, The Elephant Man, Come and See, Limbo (video game).. :facepalm:

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#53

Post by Opio » February 3rd, 2019, 12:02 am

mathiasa wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 3:51 pm
Opio wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 6:55 am
Ivan0716 wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 1:45 am
I agree, and I have no problem whatsoever with the way Lonewolf does things, I just don't understand what we're looking for here. Making a list of what I personally consider to be fantasy would be easy but obviously there's the idea flying about that some films can be considered "not fantasy enough" by others (which can be ignored, but if I'm going to do this, I want to make an effort).
[...]
I'm quite aware that I seem to be the only one who has a problem with this, but I'm not doing this just to be difficult, I'm actually very interested in what other people's thoughts are on this whole thing.
You're not the only one trying to figure this out -- I've noticed several people saying they're not making lists, perhaps because they don't have the time nor the inclination to determine which films are fantasy by the prevailing forum consensus. Or maybe they just want others to give them recommendations here.

It seems like a good proportion of animated films will make it.
The rules basically say that for this Fantasy movie poll you should vote for what you think are Fantasy movies. Do any of you have any suggestions as to how Lonewolf could have made the rules any easier for you?
Personally, I don't see how one could make the rules any easier without taking the decision away from you. I also think Lonewolf is right in saying that people should not participate if they can't decide for themselves what a Fantasy movie looks like. But I also think you guys are overthinking the issue and setting the bar very high for yourself. Just make a list and go with your intuition, I'm sure it'll come out good. I, and I'm sure others, would very much appreciate your lists.
I have no suggestions for Lonewolf and no problem with the rules of the poll. I was just trying to understand and apply all the genre discussions from other members but, as you say, will go with my intuition and have filtered out several IMDB-tagged "fantasy" films that I love.

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#54

Post by joachimt » February 3rd, 2019, 8:08 am

monclivie wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 11:44 pm
3 Women, Vertigo, Ran, The Elephant Man, Come and See, Limbo (video game).. :facepalm:
As I said elsewhere, I really hope PdA would take our polls more seriously. Looking at this list actually makes me feel Lonewolf should just disqualify this. This list is just ridiculous.

#6: Toute la mémoire du monde
"This documentary explores the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, its priceless treasures and how humanity remembers itself."
Wrong poll?

#8: Shura? :shrug:

#15: Take the 5:10 to Dreamland
Random experimental stuff. How is this fantasy?

Etc...

Lots of other experimental stuff and several documentaries. Filming something in a dreamlike way doesn't make it Fantasy. Leviathan is a good example of how PdA tries to bend the boundaries waaaaay too much.

Please disqualify this list.
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#55

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » February 3rd, 2019, 8:47 am

That list is clearly not just filtered using imdb tags. I agree he stretches the genre but we just had a discussion which ended with "everyone should define it for themselves" and he gives an explanation in the intro. If you include surrealism in fantasy then all those make sense.


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#57

Post by monclivie » February 3rd, 2019, 9:47 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 8:47 am
That list is clearly not just filtered using imdb tags. I agree he stretches the genre but we just had a discussion which ended with "everyone should define it for themselves" and he gives an explanation in the intro. If you include surrealism in fantasy then all those make sense.
It's not even surrealism. ""Surreal" is another word that I tend to avoid in this context" It's a list of dream-like experiences, created in 2016 not for this or any other poll. It's a good list actually, but it doesn't even try to pretend to be a list of fantasy films.

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#58

Post by Caracortada » February 3rd, 2019, 10:11 am

Fantasy: The Twelfth of Never

This is not my favourite genre at all, but I concocted a top 22 of films that more or less belong under this tag. It's a hard genre to define. "Fantastic tales" in the 19th century were different from what is labeled "fantasy" today.

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#59

Post by Lonewolf2003 » February 3rd, 2019, 5:18 pm

I'm not going to disqualify PDA's (or anyone else's) list. But I might come back on my idea off not deleting movies from the final results if I think people are still stretching the genre way too much. In that case I will ask the opinion here of others if I should allow some movies or not.

On another note, I do as a host of many polls agree that PdA's list screws up the statistics and all-votes lists with his massive submissions. It's the only reason why I would be for putting a maximum on list entries

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#60

Post by 3eyes » February 3rd, 2019, 8:57 pm

unranked
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls043197377/

I got annoyed with the plethora of American & Japanese titles (tho I love Studio Ghibli) so decided to focus on European films (not originally in English). Yeah I love surrealism so yawl can quarrel with these all you like but none of them will make the cut anyway so wotthehell.

Notes: #13: Le pied qui étreint (1916) is not a short but a 4-episode serial parodying Feuillade & his ilk.
#14 Planetata na sakrovishtata (Bulgaria 1982) may be the orginal of Treasure Planet.

PS. I still can't figure out how to make an ICM list out of an IMDb list without going over the same ground title by title. - ??
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#61

Post by peeptoad » February 6th, 2019, 9:26 pm

ranked

edit: nevermind. doesn't matter
Last edited by peeptoad on February 15th, 2019, 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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#63

Post by psychotronicbeatnik » February 21st, 2019, 7:45 pm

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls043893609/

#1-15 Ranked, rest of list unranked and randomly ordered.

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