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iCM Forum's Guide to World Cinema Project Proposal

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iCM Forum's Guide to World Cinema Project Proposal

#1

Post by Fergenaprido » November 22nd, 2018, 12:41 pm

Background Information

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I recently passed 100 films on the UNESCO list, plus there's been a lot of discussions with the country/region polls for next year's schedule.

One of the things that I enjoy most about cinema is getting the opportunity to explore different cultures through film. I'm lucky enough to have been able to travel fairly extensively, and I hope to do so for the rest of my life, but I'm sure there are places I will never get to, or I will only have a superficial or cursory experience with and won't be able to get to know it very much. Oftentimes, a great film can open a window to another culture (perhaps with some supplemental reading after) and help me get to know it better. It's already aided me when I meet new people, in that it helps to establish connection with them because I'm a bit more familiar or aware of their culture or some of the events from their country's history due to film.

The UNESCO Memory of the World: National Cinematic Heritage List
The UNESCO list is great in theory, as it allowed each country to pick the 15 (or so) films that they consider "to be representative of its most significant national cinematic heritage". i.e. what is important to them. Some country lists are what you would expect (USA, Australia, Finland, etc.), some are interesting starting points for exploration (Burkina Faso, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, etc.), while others are baffling (Canada & The Holy See, especially). Overall, it's an interesting list, but there are three major problems for me.
1. Almost half of it is not readily available (and sometimes we don't even know which film is selected).
2. This is almost 25 years old, and so many countries have started to make films or have drastically improved their quality or their output since then.
3. Only 49 countries submitted out of almost 200 countries and territories at the time. That means this list only covers 25% of the world. Notable exceptions include France, UK, Russia, Iran, South Africa, Cuba, Argentina, and Japan, among others.
Image

Official Non-Award Country Lists
These are great, but of varying quality, and inconsistent in the way they are compiled.
Great example: Top 100 Canadian Films - It's based on a poll with a good-sized userbase of professionals (220 critics, programmers, academics, and filmmakers), only films with over a certain number of votes are included, and it's updated on a regular basis (once a decade).
Good examples: Film magazine's Best Iranian Films - Based on a poll with a fair-sized userbase of critics; Asian Cinema: A Field Guide - taken from a book that goes deep into the region
Bad examples: The Swedish and Finnish lists - Based on polls of 50 or fewer critics, and films with even 1 vote were included, Nickel Odeón Top Spanish films until 1995 - it's now almost 25 years old as well

iCM Forum Country and Region Polls
Great exercises, but they really only make sense for countries or regions with a large output and with a large fanbase on the forum.
Large output + large fanbase - France, German-language, Russian, Japanese, Latin America, etc.
Large output but small fanbase - Africa, Middle East, Southeast Asia, etc.
Small output + small fanbase - Caribbean, Baltics, Caucasus, individual countries in Africa or the Middle East, etc.

My Proposal

I'd like to compile a list similar to the UNESCO list, of up to 15 films per country (or cluster of countries) based on user input from the forum. The goal would not be to compile the "best" or your "favourite" films from each country, but rather those that are most representative or significant for that country. The purpose of this list would be to offer a comprehensive overview and/or introduction to world cinema for people who want to explore beyond their own borders.

If every country and territory were included, this would be a list of 3,000 films. In actually, I'm expecting a final list of around 1,000 films, given that a large number of countries don't have a large enough (or good enough) output to warrant including 15 films on their own.

How this list would be compiled

I've thought of a couple of ways.
1. Create a thread and everyone adds their films in a single post (1 post per user), and then these posts are updated regularly or annually.
2. Run individual mini polls like the Yearly Top 20 polls, and slowly compile the list country by country.
3. Some other way (ideas and input most welcome)

Users would be able to choose which country a film belongs to, but a film could only be chosen for one country (i.e. something like the Double Life of Veronique could be chosen for France or Poland by a single user, but not both). If a film has multiple votes in more than one country, it would only appear on the list for the country with the most votes/highest score.

How the list would be scored

Preliminarily, I'm thinking of a scoring system like this:
- Users can submit 1, 5, 10, or 15 films (but not other numbers).
- films get 1 point for the lowest level, 2 for the next, 3 for the next, and 4 (or 5) points for the top film if they submit a full 15. OR, 1 point for inclusion regardless of rank.
- films would be tabulated and the top 5, 10, or 5 would make the list depending on the number of ballots for that country
- smaller countries could be grouped into regions if there isn't enough

Depending on participation and which method is used, this could be updated quarterly or yearly, but the intention is that it would be a contemporary list that would be updated regularly to remain relevant.

I would also ask that anyone participating include which country they "represent" to give the list a better sense of it's overall biases and origins (can be sent to me privately if you don't want people to know; I would only include the overall statistics, not user-specific).

What I'd like from you in this thread

1. What do you think of this idea? Is it something worth doing?
2. Are you interested in participating?
3. How do you think a list like this should be compiled?

If I get enough input/enthusiasm, it would be a list that I will start compiling in 2019.

Many thanks. :)

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#2

Post by Lonewolf2003 » November 22nd, 2018, 3:07 pm

I like the idea, don't know how much I can participate though. I think for a list that's about how representative or significant a movie is for that country instead of just a "favorite" movies list, people should really argument their choices. Just listing a top something isn't enough than it seems to me. The list therefor to me should be the result of a consensus reached by discussion more than just a basic tally of points. Maybe people could nominate movies for a country and from that pool the final list is chose.
Biggest issue seems to me how to deel with countries, (almost) none of are from (or have lived there for some time) and have less knowledge about the actual culture. In fact I'm on two-minds about if it's at all possible for us to chose representative movies for some countries, (almost) none of us are from and only have knowledge about it from an outside view.
Big example: Iran; I'm sure many of us a cinephiles can make a good to great list about quality movies. But how many of us have a real knowledge about Iranian society that's deep enough to make a list of representative movies of its culture.

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#3

Post by clemmetarey » November 22nd, 2018, 4:17 pm

I think it's a great idea, I had a similar one but I never really gave it any serious thoughts. I'd love to contribute in any way I can, but Lonewolf is right when he says we probably lack the background to know if a film is really representative of a country's history/culture. Plus there are tons of countries I haven't seen a single film from and watching 50 of each to make sure I'm not missing anything would take way too much time. I'm sure however there are books or websites dedicated to the culture of any given country. That would probably be a good place to start looking, maybe some lists are already made and easily accessible.
Maybe a suggestion would be to decide on a country (or multiple at the same time) and to start digging around to see what films come up the most.

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#4

Post by frbrown » November 22nd, 2018, 4:47 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 12:41 pm
iCM Forum Country and Region Polls
Great exercises, but they really only make sense for countries or regions with a large output and with a large fanbase on the forum.
How would this problem be solved/avoided in the compiling of this new list?

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#5

Post by 3eyes » November 22nd, 2018, 5:15 pm

There's a multi-volume Directory of World Cinema - ICM has 22 lists based on individual volumes (I guess). Might be a resource?

Interesting project though I doubt if I'll be participating.
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#6

Post by Fergenaprido » November 22nd, 2018, 5:20 pm

frbrown wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 4:47 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 12:41 pm
iCM Forum Country and Region Polls
Great exercises, but they really only make sense for countries or regions with a large output and with a large fanbase on the forum.
How would this problem be solved/avoided in the compiling of this new list?
Those lists are typically 100-250 in length, and a lot of countries don't have the depth to support that. But coming up with a list of 10-15 films for a given country is a lot easier. At least, that's my train of thought on the topic.

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#7

Post by Fergenaprido » November 22nd, 2018, 5:22 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 3:07 pm
I like the idea, don't know how much I can participate though. I think for a list that's about how representative or significant a movie is for that country instead of just a "favorite" movies list, people should really argument their choices. Just listing a top something isn't enough than it seems to me. The list therefor to me should be the result of a consensus reached by discussion more than just a basic tally of points. Maybe people could nominate movies for a country and from that pool the final list is chose.
Biggest issue seems to me how to deel with countries, (almost) none of are from (or have lived there for some time) and have less knowledge about the actual culture. In fact I'm on two-minds about if it's at all possible for us to chose representative movies for some countries, (almost) none of us are from and only have knowledge about it from an outside view.
Big example: Iran; I'm sure many of us a cinephiles can make a good to great list about quality movies. But how many of us have a real knowledge about Iranian society that's deep enough to make a list of representative movies of its culture.
Valid points. I guess I'm not intending for us to go too deep to be "100% representative" of the culture, and the majority of the choices will be made by 'outsiders'. It's more of looking to create an alternate to the UNESCO list with something that is more accessible, broader in scope, and more relevant.

I like the idea about the arguments for choices, and I was thinking about that as well. Not clear in my head how to go about it because I don't necessarily want to make it a requirement and have that as a blocker for participation.

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#8

Post by Fergenaprido » November 22nd, 2018, 5:24 pm

clemmetarey wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 4:17 pm
I think it's a great idea, I had a similar one but I never really gave it any serious thoughts. I'd love to contribute in any way I can, but Lonewolf is right when he says we probably lack the background to know if a film is really representative of a country's history/culture. Plus there are tons of countries I haven't seen a single film from and watching 50 of each to make sure I'm not missing anything would take way too much time. I'm sure however there are books or websites dedicated to the culture of any given country. That would probably be a good place to start looking, maybe some lists are already made and easily accessible.
Maybe a suggestion would be to decide on a country (or multiple at the same time) and to start digging around to see what films come up the most.
One way I'm thinking is to do the countries in batches, starting with the most prevalent, and thus most widely seen, giving people more time to "catch up".
i.e. Start in Jan 2019 with the Anglosphere, then maybe do a new batch each quarter, saving the smaller countries/lesser seen regions for later. And as my intention is for this to be a living list, it would naturally grow more robust over time as more people contribute or update their lists.

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#9

Post by Fergenaprido » November 22nd, 2018, 5:25 pm

3eyes wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 5:15 pm
There's a multi-volume Directory of World Cinema - ICM has 22 lists based on individual volumes (I guess). Might be a resource?

Interesting project though I doubt if I'll be participating.
I'm less interested in what experts and critics have to say (as that's kind of what UNESCO already is), and more interested in what the folks of this forum ("average cinephiles") have to contribute.

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#10

Post by joachimt » November 22nd, 2018, 6:46 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 12:41 pm
The UNESCO Memory of the World: National Cinematic Heritage List
1. Almost half of it is not readily available (and sometimes we don't even know which film is selected).
I've seen 67%.
22% is not available. The rest is available, but without subs.
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#11

Post by xianjiro » November 23rd, 2018, 3:24 am

1. What do you think of this idea? Is it something worth doing?

Sounds like a great idea and I really commend you for the effort you've already expended. It is something worth doing. However, I'm not sure that a mostly EuroAmerican user base can pass judgement on what is a worthy representation of life in Paraguay, Tuvalu, or Malawi. And even if we had 20 users from Venezuela on the board, if they represented the demographics of their country, I doubt they'd agree on one film (though with work and compromise, they might manage to agree on 15).

2. Are you interested in participating?

Probably not unless it was to evaluate a choice based on a set of predefined criteria. Contrary to what many claim, I don't 'enjoy' making lists. I find compiling a list for our current 'major' projects daunting. So even if I was only responsible for a single country with miniscule output (Paraguay), I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable saying "these are five representative films from Paraguay." But that's my thing and I won't discourage others from trying.

3. How do you think a list like this should be compiled?

I have nothing to contribute here. Sorry.

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#12

Post by mjf314 » November 23rd, 2018, 5:57 am

I think individual mini polls might work well. CFB actually did something similar to that:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... eMDnjw/pub

I don't like the idea of only having 4 possible list sizes. Why not use the same scoring system as usual, so users can choose their own list size?

If you want it to be more like UNESCO, then instead of a poll, maybe it would be better to have a committee of experts for each country, where the experts are forum users who have watched or plan to watch a lot of films from the country. They can have discussions instead of voting, to make sure there's enough variety, for example to avoid having 15 films from the same director.

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#13

Post by joachimt » November 23rd, 2018, 6:33 am

Sounds like a great idea, but I have no idea how to determine "most representative for this country". I doubt I could make a worthwhile list of my own country, so I sure can't make it for most other countries in the world.
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#14

Post by mjf314 » November 23rd, 2018, 6:50 am

joachimt wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:33 am
Sounds like a great idea, but I have no idea how to determine "most representative for this country". I doubt I could make a worthwhile list of my own country, so I sure can't make it for most other countries in the world.
I think a representative list would have variety, so at least one good film from each important style or director.

You can use a list of the best films as a starting point. Then look at the list and see if anything important is missing, and maybe remove films that are too similar to each other.

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#15

Post by Fergenaprido » November 23rd, 2018, 6:56 am

mjf314 wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 5:57 am
I think individual mini polls might work well. CFB actually did something similar to that:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... eMDnjw/pub

I don't like the idea of only having 4 possible list sizes. Why not use the same scoring system as usual, so users can choose their own list size?

If you want it to be more like UNESCO, then instead of a poll, maybe it would be better to have a committee of experts for each country, where the experts are forum users who have watched or plan to watch a lot of films from the country. They can have discussions instead of voting, to make sure there's enough variety, for example to avoid having 15 films from the same director.
Yeah, the more I think about the list sizes, the more I agree it doesn't make sense. My intention was more for people to not just list all the films they've seen from a country. What I'm leaning toward now is just an unranked top 10 per user.

Thanks for sharing that list from CFB. I had no idea they had done something similar. I really like that idea. Where can I find more information on how that list was constructed?

I don't necessarily want it to be more like UNESCO, that was simply my starting reference point (and my frustration with that list). I want this to be less of "experts" and more of "regular cinephiles".

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#16

Post by Fergenaprido » November 23rd, 2018, 7:05 am

mjf314 wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:50 am
joachimt wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:33 am
Sounds like a great idea, but I have no idea how to determine "most representative for this country". I doubt I could make a worthwhile list of my own country, so I sure can't make it for most other countries in the world.
I think a representative list would have variety, so at least one good film from each important style or director.

You can use a list of the best films as a starting point. Then look at the list and see if anything important is missing, and maybe remove films that are too similar to each other.
I think I wasn't very clear with my idea on what "representing" a country meant; the idea in my head was that it was less about representing the country or the culture itself, but more or representing the cinema of that country. That's how I interpreted the intention behind the original UNESCO list as well. I'm not averse to having more than one film by a director representing a country.

The distinction in my head is that I don't simply want this to be a list of the 15 best films produced by/in a country, but rather a list of the 15 best films made in/by a country that FEEL like they're from that country (but not necessarily about that country: i.e. I would never consider Enemy at the Gates to be a Russian film.

Example: Canada
Rebelle / War Witch is an entirely Canadian feature, though the story takes place in an unnamed African country. But the way the film is made, it still feels entirely a Canadian film.
Resident Evil films are mostly co-productions between Canada and the US, but they feel like regular Hollywood action blockbusters and don't feel Canadian at all.
So, if the first were to end of on the list for Canada, it would feel right to me, even if I didn't agree with the film being chosen. If the latter were included that would feel very off to me.

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#17

Post by mjf314 » November 23rd, 2018, 8:51 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 7:05 am
The distinction in my head is that I don't simply want this to be a list of the 15 best films produced by/in a country, but rather a list of the 15 best films made in/by a country that FEEL like they're from that country (but not necessarily about that country: i.e. I would never consider Enemy at the Gates to be a Russian film.
If you look at the top 15 of any country poll on this forum, usually all of them feel like they're from that country. It might be because some people exclude those films anyway, even if they're eligible.

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#18

Post by mjf314 » November 23rd, 2018, 8:53 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:56 am
Thanks for sharing that list from CFB. I had no idea they had done something similar. I really like that idea. Where can I find more information on how that list was constructed?
Angel ran some of the polls, so he can probably give you more information.
Fergenaprido wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 7:05 am
I'm not averse to having more than one film by a director representing a country.
I didn't mean necessarily one film per director, but I think there should be some kind of limit. If I made a guide for Sweden, for example, it wouldn't be 10 Bergmans out of 15, but maybe 3 Bergmans.

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#19

Post by beavis » November 23rd, 2018, 9:46 am

joachimt wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:33 am
Sounds like a great idea, but I have no idea how to determine "most representative for this country". I doubt I could make a worthwhile list of my own country, so I sure can't make it for most other countries in the world.
Netherlands could be fun to do from this angle. "After the Tone" for instance, a very formalistic experimental -> non-mainstream movie, feels to me só typically Dutch that it would be a great example. Would be a good discovery for a lot of Dutch folk too, as it remained rather obscure ;)
Classics like Abel and Flodder have become ingrained in Dutch culture, so they could qualify... like Bert Haanstra for an older generation... I could go on and on

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#20

Post by Lonewolf2003 » November 23rd, 2018, 10:46 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 7:05 am
mjf314 wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:50 am
joachimt wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:33 am
Sounds like a great idea, but I have no idea how to determine "most representative for this country". I doubt I could make a worthwhile list of my own country, so I sure can't make it for most other countries in the world.
I think a representative list would have variety, so at least one good film from each important style or director.

You can use a list of the best films as a starting point. Then look at the list and see if anything important is missing, and maybe remove films that are too similar to each other.
I think I wasn't very clear with my idea on what "representing" a country meant; the idea in my head was that it was less about representing the country or the culture itself, but more or representing the cinema of that country. That's how I interpreted the intention behind the original UNESCO list as well. I'm not averse to having more than one film by a director representing a country.

The distinction in my head is that I don't simply want this to be a list of the 15 best films produced by/in a country, but rather a list of the 15 best films made in/by a country that FEEL like they're from that country (but not necessarily about that country: i.e. I would never consider Enemy at the Gates to be a Russian film.

Example: Canada
Rebelle / War Witch is an entirely Canadian feature, though the story takes place in an unnamed African country. But the way the film is made, it still feels entirely a Canadian film.
Resident Evil films are mostly co-productions between Canada and the US, but they feel like regular Hollywood action blockbusters and don't feel Canadian at all.
So, if the first were to end of on the list for Canada, it would feel right to me, even if I didn't agree with the film being chosen. If the latter were included that would feel very off to me.
I thought you meant the later. Making a list for movies representative of a countries filmculture is more do-able for us even from an outside perspective.

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#21

Post by Angel Glez » November 23rd, 2018, 11:57 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:56 am
Thanks for sharing that list from CFB. I had no idea they had done something similar. I really like that idea. Where can I find more information on how that list was constructed?
By collecting ranked top 10s (just favorites, nothing to do with representative films of the country). Critical lists, if available, were also published for suggested viewings and/or comparison purposes.

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#22

Post by mjf314 » November 24th, 2018, 8:18 pm

Here's a collection of top 15s from the 17 country/region polls that we've done so far. Maybe about 98% feel like they're from the country, with just a few co-productions that feel out of place.

Some countries have fewer films, because they're part of a region that's dominated by another country. To fix it I'd have to manually add some films that ranked lower in the poll, but I don't feel like doing that.

A few notable missing countries are Spain, India, Netherlands, Belgium, and Portugal. Two of those (Spain and Portugal) will be covered soon. I'm surprised we haven't done an Indian poll yet.
SpoilerShow
Africa (2018)
Yeelen
Hyènes
La battaglia di Algeri
Timbuktu
La noire de...
Bab el hadid
Doa al karawan
Xala
Camp de Thiaroye
Touki Bouki
District 9
Tilaï
Moolaadé
Samt el qusur
La petite vendeuse de soleil

Balkan (2016)
4 luni, 3 saptamâni si 2 zile
Underground
Kynodontas
Mikres Afrodites
Dom za vesanje
Moartea domnului Lãzãrescu
Dupa dealuri
Crna macka, beli macor
Reconstituirea
Mia aioniotita kai mia mera
Ilektra
Before the Rain
H-8...
No Man's Land
Alexis Zorbas

Canada (2017)
Videodrome
My Winnipeg
The Sweet Hereafter
L'homme qui plantait des arbres
Dead Ringers
Mommy
Incendies
eXistenZ
Away from Her
The Fly
Stories We Tell
Enemy
The Heart of the World
Laurence Anyways
Exotica

Central Europe (2016)
Trois couleurs: Blanc
La double vie de Veronique
Sedmikrásky
Nóz w wodzie
Werckmeister harmóniák
Ida
Amator
Pociag
Obchod na korze
Dekalog
Spalovac mrtvol
Valerie a týden divu
Popiól i diament
Ostre sledované vlaky
Krótki film o zabijaniu

China (2017)
Faa yeung nin wa
Da hong deng long gao gao gua
Chung Hing sam lam
Gu ling jie shao nian sha ren shi jian
2046
Yi yi
Wo hu cang long
Ying xiong
Kong bu fen zi
Chun gwong cha sit
Do lok tin si
Dung che sai duk
Ba wang bie ji
Mou gaan dou
Qing shao nian nuo zha

France (2018)
Les diaboliques
Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
Le salaire de la peur
Le trou
Le samouraï
Trois couleurs: Rouge
Hiroshima mon amour
La passion de Jeanne d'Arc
Les enfants du paradis
À bout de souffle
L'armée des ombres
Les quatre cents coups
L'année dernière à Marienbad
Le fabuleux destin d'Amélie Poulain
La règle du jeu

Germany (2018)
Metropolis
M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
Aguirre, der Zorn Gottes
Das Boot
Lola rennt
Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari
Fitzcarraldo
Angst essen Seele auf
Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens
Faust: Eine deutsche Volkssage
Der Himmel über Berlin
Das Testament des Dr. Mabuse
Jeder für sich und Gott gegen alle
Das weiße Band - Eine deutsche Kindergeschichte
Der letzte Mann

Italy (2015)
Ladri di biciclette
Suspiria

L'avventura
Le notti di Cabiria
Umberto D.
La strada
Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo
La dolce vita
L'eclisse
C'era una volta il West
Rocco e i suoi fratelli
Il gattopardo
La notte
Roma città aperta

Japan (2017)
Shichinin no samurai
Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi
Seppuku
Tôkyô monogatari
Suna no onna
Rashômon
Sanshô dayû
Hotaru no haka
Tonari no Totoro
Tengoku to jigoku
Ikiru
Ningen no jôken
Mononoke-hime
Ran
Banshun

Latin America and Carribean (2016)
Cidade de Deus
Los olvidados
Y tu mamá también
El Ángel Exterminador
O Pagador de Promessas
Ilha das Flores
Memorias del subdesarrollo
La montaña sagrada
Amores perros
Soy Cuba
El secreto de sus ojos
Araya
La historia oficial
Nostalgia de la luz
El topo

Middle East (2018)
Jodaeiye Nader az Simin
Nema-ye Nazdik
Ta'm e guilass
Nun va Goldoon
Bacheha-Ye aseman
Bir Zamanlar Anadolu'da
Darbareye Elly
Vals Im Bashir
Khane-ye doust kodjast?
Kis Uykusu
Forushande
Wadjda
Mustang
Bad ma ra khahad bord
Dah

Oceania (2018)
Walkabout
Picnic at Hanging Rock
Mad Max 2
Mad Max: Fury Road
Wake in Fright
The Piano
Heavenly Creatures
Mary and Max
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
Braindead
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
The Last Wave
Bad Boy Bubby

Korea (2018)
Bom yeoreum gaeul gyeoul geurigo bom
Oldeuboi
Salinui chueok
Bin-jip
Ah-ga-ssi
Madeo
Gwoemul
Shi
Janghwa, Hongryeon
Dharmaga tongjoguro kan kkadalgun
Chinjeolhan geumjassi
Hwal
Hanyo
Boksuneun naui geot
Oasiseu

Nordic (2016)
Persona
Smultronstället
Festen
Jagten
Det sjunde inseglet
Fanny och Alexander
Nattvardsgästerna
Fucking Åmål
Dogville
Tystnaden
Låt den rätte komma in
Sånger från andra våningen
Jungfrukällan
Vredens dag
Ordet

Russia (2016)
Idi i smotri
Letyat zhuravli
Stalker
Solyaris
Bronenosets Potemkin
Voskhozhdenie
Chelovek s kino-apparatom
Neotpravlennoe pismo
Ballada o soldate
Vozvrashchenie
Zerkalo
Ivanovo detstvo
Andrey Rublev
Yozhik v tumane
Po zakonu

Southeast Asia (2018)
Loong Boonmee raleuk chat
Ruang rak noi nid mahasan
The Act of Killing
Sud pralad
Maynila: Sa mga kuko ng liwanag
Sang sattawat
Bao gio cho den tháng Muoi
Serbuan maut
Norte, hangganan ng kasaysayan
Insiang
The Raid 2: Berandal
Xích lô
Mùi du du xanh
Mababangong Bangungot
The Look of Silence

UK (2017)
The Third Man
Brief Encounter
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
A Clockwork Orange
Lawrence of Arabia
Life of Brian
Barry Lyndon
Naked
The Red Shoes
Repulsion
Kind Hearts and Coronets
2001: A Space Odyssey
The Lady Vanishes
Odd Man Out
The 39 Steps

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#23

Post by Fergenaprido » November 25th, 2018, 4:31 am

mjf314 wrote:
November 24th, 2018, 8:18 pm
Here's a collection of top 15s from the 17 country/region polls that we've done so far. Maybe about 98% feel like they're from the country, with just a few co-productions that feel out of place.

Some countries have fewer films, because they're part of a region that's dominated by another country. To fix it I'd have to manually add some films that ranked lower in the poll, but I don't feel like doing that.

A few notable missing countries are Spain, India, Netherlands, Belgium, and Portugal. Two of those (Spain and Portugal) will be covered soon. I'm surprised we haven't done an Indian poll yet.
SpoilerShow
Africa (2018)
Yeelen
Hyènes
La battaglia di Algeri
Timbuktu
La noire de...
Bab el hadid
Doa al karawan
Xala
Camp de Thiaroye
Touki Bouki
District 9
Tilaï
Moolaadé
Samt el qusur
La petite vendeuse de soleil

Balkan (2016)
4 luni, 3 saptamâni si 2 zile
Underground
Kynodontas
Mikres Afrodites
Dom za vesanje
Moartea domnului Lãzãrescu
Dupa dealuri
Crna macka, beli macor
Reconstituirea
Mia aioniotita kai mia mera
Ilektra
Before the Rain
H-8...
No Man's Land
Alexis Zorbas

Canada (2017)
Videodrome
My Winnipeg
The Sweet Hereafter
L'homme qui plantait des arbres
Dead Ringers
Mommy
Incendies
eXistenZ
Away from Her
The Fly
Stories We Tell
Enemy
The Heart of the World
Laurence Anyways
Exotica

Central Europe (2016)
Trois couleurs: Blanc
La double vie de Veronique
Sedmikrásky
Nóz w wodzie
Werckmeister harmóniák
Ida
Amator
Pociag
Obchod na korze
Dekalog
Spalovac mrtvol
Valerie a týden divu
Popiól i diament
Ostre sledované vlaky
Krótki film o zabijaniu

China (2017)
Faa yeung nin wa
Da hong deng long gao gao gua
Chung Hing sam lam
Gu ling jie shao nian sha ren shi jian
2046
Yi yi
Wo hu cang long
Ying xiong
Kong bu fen zi
Chun gwong cha sit
Do lok tin si
Dung che sai duk
Ba wang bie ji
Mou gaan dou
Qing shao nian nuo zha

France (2018)
Les diaboliques
Un condamné à mort s'est échappé ou Le vent souffle où il veut
Le salaire de la peur
Le trou
Le samouraï
Trois couleurs: Rouge
Hiroshima mon amour
La passion de Jeanne d'Arc
Les enfants du paradis
À bout de souffle
L'armée des ombres
Les quatre cents coups
L'année dernière à Marienbad
Le fabuleux destin d'Amélie Poulain
La règle du jeu

Germany (2018)
Metropolis
M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder
Aguirre, der Zorn Gottes
Das Boot
Lola rennt
Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari
Fitzcarraldo
Angst essen Seele auf
Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens
Faust: Eine deutsche Volkssage
Der Himmel über Berlin
Das Testament des Dr. Mabuse
Jeder für sich und Gott gegen alle
Das weiße Band - Eine deutsche Kindergeschichte
Der letzte Mann

Italy (2015)
Ladri di biciclette
Suspiria

L'avventura
Le notti di Cabiria
Umberto D.
La strada
Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo
La dolce vita
L'eclisse
C'era una volta il West
Rocco e i suoi fratelli
Il gattopardo
La notte
Roma città aperta

Japan (2017)
Shichinin no samurai
Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi
Seppuku
Tôkyô monogatari
Suna no onna
Rashômon
Sanshô dayû
Hotaru no haka
Tonari no Totoro
Tengoku to jigoku
Ikiru
Ningen no jôken
Mononoke-hime
Ran
Banshun

Latin America and Carribean (2016)
Cidade de Deus
Los olvidados
Y tu mamá también
El Ángel Exterminador
O Pagador de Promessas
Ilha das Flores
Memorias del subdesarrollo
La montaña sagrada
Amores perros
Soy Cuba
El secreto de sus ojos
Araya
La historia oficial
Nostalgia de la luz
El topo

Middle East (2018)
Jodaeiye Nader az Simin
Nema-ye Nazdik
Ta'm e guilass
Nun va Goldoon
Bacheha-Ye aseman
Bir Zamanlar Anadolu'da
Darbareye Elly
Vals Im Bashir
Khane-ye doust kodjast?
Kis Uykusu
Forushande
Wadjda
Mustang
Bad ma ra khahad bord
Dah

Oceania (2018)
Walkabout
Picnic at Hanging Rock
Mad Max 2
Mad Max: Fury Road
Wake in Fright
The Piano
Heavenly Creatures
Mary and Max
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
Braindead
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
The Last Wave
Bad Boy Bubby

Korea (2018)
Bom yeoreum gaeul gyeoul geurigo bom
Oldeuboi
Salinui chueok
Bin-jip
Ah-ga-ssi
Madeo
Gwoemul
Shi
Janghwa, Hongryeon
Dharmaga tongjoguro kan kkadalgun
Chinjeolhan geumjassi
Hwal
Hanyo
Boksuneun naui geot
Oasiseu

Nordic (2016)
Persona
Smultronstället
Festen
Jagten
Det sjunde inseglet
Fanny och Alexander
Nattvardsgästerna
Fucking Åmål
Dogville
Tystnaden
Låt den rätte komma in
Sånger från andra våningen
Jungfrukällan
Vredens dag
Ordet

Russia (2016)
Idi i smotri
Letyat zhuravli
Stalker
Solyaris
Bronenosets Potemkin
Voskhozhdenie
Chelovek s kino-apparatom
Neotpravlennoe pismo
Ballada o soldate
Vozvrashchenie
Zerkalo
Ivanovo detstvo
Andrey Rublev
Yozhik v tumane
Po zakonu

Southeast Asia (2018)
Loong Boonmee raleuk chat
Ruang rak noi nid mahasan
The Act of Killing
Sud pralad
Maynila: Sa mga kuko ng liwanag
Sang sattawat
Bao gio cho den tháng Muoi
Serbuan maut
Norte, hangganan ng kasaysayan
Insiang
The Raid 2: Berandal
Xích lô
Mùi du du xanh
Mababangong Bangungot
The Look of Silence

UK (2017)
The Third Man
Brief Encounter
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
A Clockwork Orange
Lawrence of Arabia
Life of Brian
Barry Lyndon
Naked
The Red Shoes
Repulsion
Kind Hearts and Coronets
2001: A Space Odyssey
The Lady Vanishes
Odd Man Out
The 39 Steps
Thanks for gathering this together :)

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#24

Post by Fergenaprido » December 14th, 2018, 12:16 pm

Thanks everyone for contributing. Been busy the past few weeks but also been giving this a lot of thought.

I added the CFB list that mjf shared to icm: CFB Greatest Movies by Country. If any of the information in the description is incorrect, please let me know. I like this list and I think this is a closer idea to what I have in mind than the UNESCO list; the UNESCO one was the only reference I had previously, thus acted as a starting point for my idea.

After going through everyone's feedback and reevaluating my proposal, I think I was overcomplicating things.

1. Having users submit a Top 10 should be sufficient. Many polls have that limit and it seems simple yet effective. I would like to have a minimum number as well, though, to ensure that people who've only seen 1 film from a place don't only submit that film and nothing else (maybe a minimum of 5 films, similar to the year polls we conduct).
2. In 2019 I would host discussion threads for the various countries and regions to be included, to encourage people to seek out new films. Despite my great improvements in the past 3 years at expanding my global cinematic knowledge, I still see a lot of gaps in my own viewing and I want to spend next year rectifying that.
3. I would also (in this thread or another), set about establishing which countries would be included on their own, which ones would be included as a group, and which likely wouldn't be included at all. This could also mean lists of different lengths depending on the output of each country. There used to be a page on imdb where you could see the number of films produced by each country, but I cannot find it since they made the last round of major changes to their interface. Maybe a country like the US or UK would have 20 films in the final list, Brazil or Canada 15, New Zealand or Iceland 10, and Burkina Faso or Peru 5. Something to think about further.
4. I would then conduct the polls (likely in batches once every month or quarter) in 2020, so that we could include all films from the 2010s decade, and to give more people more time to participate.

Ultimately, this would turn into a list of less than 1000 films showcasing movies from around the world. The only strict rule I will impose is that each film can only represent a single country (there was one that one two lists from the CFB but I can't remember which, now).

Thoughts? Does this streamlined version sound more feasible/interesting?

Edit: Fixed point one as I inadvertently left out some words which changed the intention of my sentence (in italics).
Last edited by Fergenaprido on December 16th, 2018, 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#25

Post by Mario Gaborović » December 14th, 2018, 4:29 pm

WTF Ireland which barely has any cinematic history has 20 entries on this list.

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#26

Post by mjf314 » December 15th, 2018, 10:58 am

How do we decide which country each film represents, and do we decide before or after voting?

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#27

Post by nimimerkillinen » December 15th, 2018, 11:06 am

mjf314 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:58 am
How do we decide which country each film represents, and do we decide before or after voting?
first production country on imdb?

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#28

Post by mjf314 » December 15th, 2018, 11:23 am

nimimerkillinen wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:06 am
mjf314 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:58 am
How do we decide which country each film represents, and do we decide before or after voting?
first production country on imdb?
The main country isn't always listed first on IMDb.

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#29

Post by nimimerkillinen » December 15th, 2018, 11:46 am

mjf314 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:23 am
nimimerkillinen wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:06 am
mjf314 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:58 am
How do we decide which country each film represents, and do we decide before or after voting?
first production country on imdb?
The main country isn't always listed first on IMDb.
how often is it so?

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#30

Post by Fergenaprido » December 15th, 2018, 12:48 pm

mjf314 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:58 am
How do we decide which country each film represents, and do we decide before or after voting?
Before voting. That would be part of the discussion in 2019. I imagine in most cases there wouldn't be much disagreement, but I can foresee a few where a decision would have to be made (Like the Three Colors trilogy), because otherwise the votes would likely be split between countries and then the films wouldn't make either list. I can already come up with a list of highly-rated, -acclaimed, or -seen films that are notably co-productions to kick off the discussion.

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#31

Post by Fergenaprido » December 15th, 2018, 12:49 pm

nimimerkillinen wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:46 am
mjf314 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:23 am
nimimerkillinen wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:06 am

first production country on imdb?
The main country isn't always listed first on IMDb.
how often is it so?
I don't know about definitive numbers or percentages, but I see it quite often. I edit the entry when I'm certain of an error, but often I'm not sure myself so I leave it as is.

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#32

Post by clemmetarey » December 15th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:48 pm
(Like the Three Colors trilogy)
It won't be possible for all cases, but whenever there is a big enough doubt maybe they should just be excluded? Here France and Poland have enough 100% native films representative of their film history to fill a top 20/30.

Another thing, do you think it would be a good idea to include directors? For example have a list of 5 names as an introduction to the country, or to go beyond the main list.

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#33

Post by Fergenaprido » December 15th, 2018, 3:58 pm

clemmetarey wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 1:10 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:48 pm
(Like the Three Colors trilogy)
It won't be possible for all cases, but whenever there is a big enough doubt maybe they should just be excluded? Here France and Poland have enough 100% native films representative of their film history to fill a top 20/30.

Another thing, do you think it would be a good idea to include directors? For example have a list of 5 names as an introduction to the country, or to go beyond the main list.
We'll see if it comes to that. It may be a moot point if those uncertain films don't make people's top tens.
If I look at the films included in the CFB poll, decisions would have to be made about Soy Cuba, some other Soviet-era films from modern countries other than Russia like Sayat Nova, Sult [Hunger] (this was the one included on both the Danish and Norwegian lists, but I just realized icm won't let you add the same film twice to a list), The Piano, La guerre du feu [Quest for Fire],

Interestingly, the CFB considered White and Blue to be Polish films (they didn't conduct a French poll), and the LOTR trilogy to be from New Zealand. They also didn't do polls for the USA, the UK, Italy, Finland, Greece, Turkey, the Arab world, and the rest of Latin America (beyond Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, and the Caribbean).

Can you expand on your idea for directors? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

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#34

Post by clemmetarey » December 15th, 2018, 4:29 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 3:58 pm
Can you expand on your idea for directors? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
What I meant is to have the main list of 20 films, and, for those who have already seen them or doesn't find anything that spark their interest, to have a very short list of the biggest names (directors, or actors for example) of the country's film industry. Just a few names, but I think it would help the exploration.

It would give something like: ''you want to explore the cinema of X? Here's a list of 20 films, if you want to go further, here are the 2/3/5 biggest/most acclaimed directors."

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#35

Post by Fergenaprido » December 15th, 2018, 4:46 pm

clemmetarey wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:29 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 3:58 pm
Can you expand on your idea for directors? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
What I meant is to have the main list of 20 films, and, for those who have already seen them or doesn't find anything that spark their interest, to have a very short list of the biggest names (directors, or actors for example) of the country's film industry. Just a few names, but I think it would help the exploration.

It would give something like: ''you want to explore the cinema of X? Here's a list of 20 films, if you want to go further, here are the 2/3/5 biggest/most acclaimed directors."
Ah, that would indeed be interesting. Would you recommend people come up with a list of directors in addition to films, or would it be okay to simply list the most-cited directors for each ballot? Or maybe I'll just locate the most prolific directors from each country according to imdb.

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#36

Post by OldAle1 » December 15th, 2018, 5:40 pm

Hmm, for some reason I thought I'd replied to this thread earlier, but nope. I think I had something I was planning to write soon after you started it but it disappeared or I got distracted. So anyway, reading through this now, and forgive me if I go on at length, but this is a very interesting concept for me and I'd love to see it work...but I'm also rather apprehensive. Major points -

1. See xianjiro's point 1 above; in my case for example I'm not sure how comfortable I am thinking about "representative" films from any country, save my own (the USA) and *maybe* my northern neighbor (Canada). I mean, I've seen a heckuva lot of Iranian films compared to most people but is my western, atheist, liberal perspective throwing off what I see of value in that cinema or culture generally? Still, this shouldn't totally kill the idea, so I would propose that

2. When possible, some preference be given to native cineastes. Each person would get ONE country they could claim as their home, and they could either get a few more picks or perhaps slightly more points added to their totals for that country's films. In cases where we have no natives (probably the majority of countries) perhaps we could come up with another system to ensure that individuals who are actually more knowledgeable get some extra credit. I realize this would be difficult to do and would probably cause much bitterness, wailing, hand-wringing and possibly death threats, but there it is. I'm much more interested in a top 10 of Israeli cinema from someone who was born and raised there and has seen hundreds of Israeli films as they came out than I am in the opinions of Joe Schmo, to be blunt about it, and if we don't have such a person, then someone who actually cares about Israeli cinema and has made a point to see a lot of it as opposed to someone who has just gone after official checks.

3. Assuming you are not planning on running polls for all countries all at once (you're not that crazy are you?) I would suggest that you prioritize cinemas that are relatively large or diverse, but have been neglected by UNESCO, or ICM official lists, or both - e.g., The Philippines. Of remaining countries, then prioritize those that have really dated official lists. And conversely, countries that are already extremely well represented, regardless of UNESCO presence, like the USA, France and Japan, ought to come dead last. I realize that part of the purpose is to create "starter" lists in a way, and that's useful for any country, but I just don't see it being nearly as valuable for those countries that appear time and again on every list in sight - if you haven't figured out early on that Shichinin no samurai, La régle du jeu and Citizen Kane are important films within the cinemas of their countries, you have plenty of other sources to find that out.

4. As far as shared countries, I tend to agree that films should be assigned one country; with small final lists as you suggest of say 10-20 films per country, I doubt this will be much of a problem though I do think it will come up, e.g. Italian cinema in particular and China-Hong Kong-Taiwan. I could easily justify placing Once Upon a Time in America on both my American and Italian lists for example.

5. I have mixed feelings about doing regional groupings for this kind of project, while recognizing the reality of what people have seen and will vote for. For example given my own interests, I can easily see the case being made for doing individual polls for these African or middle eastern countries: Iran, Turkey, Israel, Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, Burkina Faso, South Africa, Senegal, Mali, Nigeria - all of which have had cinemas significant enough in numbers or history or both that we OUGHT to be able to come up with lists of 10 or more; but I'm not sure we actually would except in the cases of the first four; I mean, shit, I haven't seen more than 1 or 2 Nigerian films myself yet. And these regions are diverse enough that lumping them all together in two regions like we did for our polls this year just doesn't feel right to me - though obviously as mentioned in point 4, there are loads of co-productions as well. South and Central America would pose similar issues, Southeast Asia, etc.

6. What I'm most afraid of in the context of this project is that we might end up with lists that are more limited and narrow in scope than what UNESCO or other official lists provide, e.g. I can imagine a user-generated list of films from Iran having nothing (except Khaneh siah ast) from before the revolution, and maybe only 3-4 directors represented even in a list of 20. There may be ways to remedy this, like limits on the # of films you could choose from one director or decade, but I don't know that people would like that and it might severely limit participation (especially the decade limit).

Anyway I like the idea overall, caveats and all, though with all of the other polls and challenges we have, I can't say for sure I'd participate. There's a limit!

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#37

Post by clemmetarey » December 15th, 2018, 6:35 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:46 pm
clemmetarey wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:29 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 3:58 pm
Can you expand on your idea for directors? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
What I meant is to have the main list of 20 films, and, for those who have already seen them or doesn't find anything that spark their interest, to have a very short list of the biggest names (directors, or actors for example) of the country's film industry. Just a few names, but I think it would help the exploration.

It would give something like: ''you want to explore the cinema of X? Here's a list of 20 films, if you want to go further, here are the 2/3/5 biggest/most acclaimed directors."
Ah, that would indeed be interesting. Would you recommend people come up with a list of directors in addition to films, or would it be okay to simply list the most-cited directors for each ballot? Or maybe I'll just locate the most prolific directors from each country according to imdb.
My first thought was to list the most-cited directors, but to avoid redundancy it would probably be best to add new names. Or a mix of most-cited and important omissions (whenever we feel there's such a thing of course).
I think Oldale's idea of limiting the number of films by decade or directors could be a good one, but I think 1 title, or even 2 is too low for smaller countries. And I second him in saying that I really like the idea overall.

Maybe you should run some sort of a test? Nothing official, just pick a country and see how it goes, in a trial and error fashion.

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#38

Post by mjf314 » December 16th, 2018, 3:39 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
December 14th, 2018, 12:16 pm
1. Having users submit a Top 10 should be sufficient. Many polls have that limit and it seems simple yet effective. I would like to have a minimum number as well, though, to ensure that people who've only seen 1 film from a place submit that film and nothing else (maybe a minimum of 5 films, similar to the year polls we conduct).
I don't think a minimum list size is a good idea. For example, if someone has watched exactly 5 Israeli films, they shouldn't be forced to vote for all 5. They should vote for films that they like.

If you only want knowledgeable people to be allowed to vote, you can say that only people who have watched at least X films from the country are allowed to vote, but then it would be a different type of project from what you originally had in mind.

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#39

Post by Fergenaprido » December 16th, 2018, 10:04 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 5:40 pm
1. See xianjiro's point 1 above; in my case for example I'm not sure how comfortable I am thinking about "representative" films from any country, save my own (the USA) and *maybe* my northern neighbor (Canada). I mean, I've seen a heckuva lot of Iranian films compared to most people but is my western, atheist, liberal perspective throwing off what I see of value in that cinema or culture generally? Still, this shouldn't totally kill the idea, so I would propose that

2. When possible, some preference be given to native cineastes. Each person would get ONE country they could claim as their home, and they could either get a few more picks or perhaps slightly more points added to their totals for that country's films. In cases where we have no natives (probably the majority of countries) perhaps we could come up with another system to ensure that individuals who are actually more knowledgeable get some extra credit. I realize this would be difficult to do and would probably cause much bitterness, wailing, hand-wringing and possibly death threats, but there it is. I'm much more interested in a top 10 of Israeli cinema from someone who was born and raised there and has seen hundreds of Israeli films as they came out than I am in the opinions of Joe Schmo, to be blunt about it, and if we don't have such a person, then someone who actually cares about Israeli cinema and has made a point to see a lot of it as opposed to someone who has just gone after official checks.
I think my goal of "representative" was misguided. I'd like this to be rather focused on the films from each country that the forum members love. I don't want to give preference to natives; I think that the individual country lists from experts from those countries cover that already, and I'm less interested in what any one individual thinks than I am what the community thinks. One great thing about this forum is that it is pretty global (even if the majority are Anglo or European). The goal is, however, that only those people who have seen "enough" films from a particular country would contribute to that list. And maybe we would need a minimum number of contributors to a list for that country to be eligible.
OldAle1 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 5:40 pm
3. Assuming you are not planning on running polls for all countries all at once (you're not that crazy are you?) I would suggest that you prioritize cinemas that are relatively large or diverse, but have been neglected by UNESCO, or ICM official lists, or both - e.g., The Philippines. Of remaining countries, then prioritize those that have really dated official lists. And conversely, countries that are already extremely well represented, regardless of UNESCO presence, like the USA, France and Japan, ought to come dead last. I realize that part of the purpose is to create "starter" lists in a way, and that's useful for any country, but I just don't see it being nearly as valuable for those countries that appear time and again on every list in sight - if you haven't figured out early on that Shichinin no samurai, La régle du jeu and Citizen Kane are important films within the cinemas of their countries, you have plenty of other sources to find that out.
Actually, I was planning to start with the big ones first, because those would be the easiest to complete, and would likely garner the largest participation from the users. This would ideally lead to more discussion and generate sustained interest, while also giving people more time to delve into the less seen regions of the world before polling. And I don't want the emphasis to be on how important the film is. The Jazz Singer is important to American cinema, but I doubt anyone would place it on their ballot. (Tangent: I've been wanting to create an "Important But Not Necessarily Good" list for some time for those films that were notable in some way but are still not so great movies)
OldAle1 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 5:40 pm
4. As far as shared countries, I tend to agree that films should be assigned one country; with small final lists as you suggest of say 10-20 films per country, I doubt this will be much of a problem though I do think it will come up, e.g. Italian cinema in particular and China-Hong Kong-Taiwan. I could easily justify placing Once Upon a Time in America on both my American and Italian lists for example.
Let's see what pops up when it happens. One thing I do intend to do is to do a couple of polls at a time; so, if Greater China is one megalist, the point is moot, but if we give each of those three their own list, we could discuss co-productions and allocations at the same time, instead of having that discussion three separate times.
OldAle1 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 5:40 pm
5. I have mixed feelings about doing regional groupings for this kind of project, while recognizing the reality of what people have seen and will vote for. For example given my own interests, I can easily see the case being made for doing individual polls for these African or middle eastern countries: Iran, Turkey, Israel, Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, Burkina Faso, South Africa, Senegal, Mali, Nigeria - all of which have had cinemas significant enough in numbers or history or both that we OUGHT to be able to come up with lists of 10 or more; but I'm not sure we actually would except in the cases of the first four; I mean, shit, I haven't seen more than 1 or 2 Nigerian films myself yet. And these regions are diverse enough that lumping them all together in two regions like we did for our polls this year just doesn't feel right to me - though obviously as mentioned in point 4, there are loads of co-productions as well. South and Central America would pose similar issues, Southeast Asia, etc.
I'll plan out some preliminary groupings later, after I've had some time to scrounge up some data from imdb. My plan was to look at both the output from each country as well as the general interest/depth of knowledge on the forum for each country when deciding which ones should get their own list and how long those lists should be. Nigeria has a massive output, but the forum's knowledge of Nigerian films is pretty bleak. That being said, I'm hoping that we'll be able to highlight a few of those countries you mentioned individually, and then have a "rest of" poll for the remainder of each region (or break the region into smaller bits, like West Africa, North Africa, East Africa, etc.).
OldAle1 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 5:40 pm
6. What I'm most afraid of in the context of this project is that we might end up with lists that are more limited and narrow in scope than what UNESCO or other official lists provide, e.g. I can imagine a user-generated list of films from Iran having nothing (except Khaneh siah ast) from before the revolution, and maybe only 3-4 directors represented even in a list of 20. There may be ways to remedy this, like limits on the # of films you could choose from one director or decade, but I don't know that people would like that and it might severely limit participation (especially the decade limit).
It's definitely a risk, but one I'm willing to take. I'm very hesitant to add a lot of restrictions to the ballots aside from ensuring people have seen a decent number of films from that country.

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#40

Post by Fergenaprido » December 16th, 2018, 10:09 pm

clemmetarey wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 6:35 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:46 pm
clemmetarey wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:29 pm
What I meant is to have the main list of 20 films, and, for those who have already seen them or doesn't find anything that spark their interest, to have a very short list of the biggest names (directors, or actors for example) of the country's film industry. Just a few names, but I think it would help the exploration.

It would give something like: ''you want to explore the cinema of X? Here's a list of 20 films, if you want to go further, here are the 2/3/5 biggest/most acclaimed directors."
Ah, that would indeed be interesting. Would you recommend people come up with a list of directors in addition to films, or would it be okay to simply list the most-cited directors for each ballot? Or maybe I'll just locate the most prolific directors from each country according to imdb.
My first thought was to list the most-cited directors, but to avoid redundancy it would probably be best to add new names. Or a mix of most-cited and important omissions (whenever we feel there's such a thing of course).
I think Oldale's idea of limiting the number of films by decade or directors could be a good one, but I think 1 title, or even 2 is too low for smaller countries. And I second him in saying that I really like the idea overall.

Maybe you should run some sort of a test? Nothing official, just pick a country and see how it goes, in a trial and error fashion.
Hmmm. Well, I don't think I want to devote too much time or effort to the directors part of it, but if you wanted to have a companion project/list of directors to accompany each poll, that would be cool.

And if we really want to do a decade breakdown, we could make it so each person gets 1 pick per country per decade (with 1880s-1920s grouped together) :p

A test may be a good idea to sort out the logistics. Perhaps mid-year I'll try it out with the US, France, or Japan, and see how it goes.

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