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500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Fergenaprido
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Re: Future polls

#1081

Post by Fergenaprido » November 2nd, 2019, 1:33 pm

I'm a fan of sticking with a 50 halflife for consistency.

What's the mean, median, and mode of submission list lengths?

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#1082

Post by joachimt » November 2nd, 2019, 1:33 pm

Tim2460 wrote:
November 2nd, 2019, 12:58 pm
Looks good ??... exept the " at start & end .. weird.
I always remove the " manually when pasting on the forum. Never understood why those show up.
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#1083

Post by joachimt » November 2nd, 2019, 1:34 pm

For consistency 50 is good indeed, since it's a repeating poll.
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#1084

Post by Tim2460 » November 2nd, 2019, 3:00 pm

Ok : will modify with the HL-50 rankings and score and start the result thread l8er today.

Now ... new Ikea Fourniture to assemble... Wish me luck ,)

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#1085

Post by Lonewolf2003 » November 2nd, 2019, 3:01 pm

To decide which half-life the difference in rank at the top of the list isn't a factor to me. I never look at the points, but at the amount of movies with 2 or 3 votes in the list. That depends also on the amount of voters, with a small voter base some movies with 2 votes in the final results are more acceptable than with a huge voter base. I also use that to see how long a list is going to be.

For consistency I would keep it at 50, like said before and above.

I never been able to remove those " showing up automatically either.

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#1086

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » November 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pm

Tim2460 wrote:
November 2nd, 2019, 12:43 pm
@PA : the i.forum.com links for the pictures don't seems to work anymore ? the imgur links provided by joachimt do work but i miss some screens ... maybe 20 : got to see if i have thoses movies or if i can find screenshots for them online. Result excel file do work know with the PA formula above ... adapted to my french excel ,)
They should be back.
PM me what films you need and I can find them if you want.

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#1087

Post by joachimt » November 2nd, 2019, 11:05 pm

Tim2460 wrote:
November 2nd, 2019, 3:00 pm
Now ... new Ikea Fourniture to assemble... Wish me luck ,)
Good luck!
I love screwing on Ikea furniture, uh.......that's not what I meant. Anyway, my wife and I sometimes joke that our relationship is based on IKEA. At least our first date was to IKEA and we actually shot our wedding pictures inside the store.
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#1088

Post by blocho » November 3rd, 2019, 3:45 am

Just an FYI: Ikea was founded and owned until last year by a nazi.

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#1089

Post by Tim2460 » November 3rd, 2019, 1:36 pm

@Joachimt : we also went to IKEA for a first "Date" with my future wife :) It's still amazing to see that 50% of the women @ IKEA are heavilly pregnant :whistling:

@Blocho :

Image

one goodwin point to you :poshclap:

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#1090

Post by Tim2460 » November 12th, 2019, 1:43 pm

Well that first hosting went well :

Let me know if i did OK and if i'm allowed to host another one ,)

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#1091

Post by Lonewolf2003 » November 12th, 2019, 2:44 pm

Tim2460 wrote:
November 12th, 2019, 1:43 pm
Well that first hosting went well :

Let me know if i did OK and if i'm allowed to host another one ,)
Of course you are. After the schedule for 2020 is made, just say which one(s) will interest you.

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#1092

Post by joachimt » November 30th, 2019, 10:49 am

PA, will you be running the directors poll again?
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#1093

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » November 30th, 2019, 3:40 pm

Yeah I'll start it today

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#1094

Post by Lonewolf2003 » December 23rd, 2019, 2:11 pm

Here is the schedule for next year. Next up in January is Italy. Because I did that one last time, I would like to do it again. I also will do 2010s of course.

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#1095

Post by Tim2460 » December 28th, 2019, 12:34 pm

I can make mini_series iif help is needeed. Or 1001 favorited as well if it's not hosted yet?

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#1096

Post by Lonewolf2003 » December 28th, 2019, 2:31 pm

Tim2460 wrote:
December 28th, 2019, 12:34 pm
I can make mini_series iif help is needeed. Or 1001 favorited as well if it's not hosted yet?
PA always does 1001 I think he will do so again. All annual ones have regular hosts. But mini-series is available and yours if you want to .

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#1097

Post by Tim2460 » December 28th, 2019, 4:59 pm

I'll be skiing the first week of mars : mini series should be finished by then : count me in!

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#1098

Post by mjf314 » December 28th, 2019, 5:28 pm

For the mini-series poll, how should we define mini-series? I don't have a strong opinion on what the definition should be, but I hope we'll use a clear definition, to avoid confusion about what's eligible.

For reference, here's the 500<400 rule: "Mini-series must be 14 episodes or less, not multiple seasons, and not planned to be longer but canceled. The series should be intended as a single unified work and not episodic."

I'm not sure about the cutoff. Since it's a mini-series poll, and not a movie poll, people might be willing to accept a higher cutoff. Should we raise it to 20 episodes? Or make it a 20-hour cutoff? Or leave it at 14 episodes?

I'm a little bit confused by the "single unified work" rule. I'm not sure if we should keep this rule or remove it. Is Planet Earth a single unified work? Is The Storyteller a single unified work?

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#1099

Post by Lonewolf2003 » December 29th, 2019, 12:49 pm

mjf314 wrote:
December 28th, 2019, 5:28 pm
For the mini-series poll, how should we define mini-series? I don't have a strong opinion on what the definition should be, but I hope we'll use a clear definition, to avoid confusion about what's eligible.

For reference, here's the 500<400 rule: "Mini-series must be 14 episodes or less, not multiple seasons, and not planned to be longer but canceled. The series should be intended as a single unified work and not episodic."

I'm not sure about the cutoff. Since it's a mini-series poll, and not a movie poll, people might be willing to accept a higher cutoff. Should we raise it to 20 episodes? Or make it a 20-hour cutoff? Or leave it at 14 episodes?

I'm a little bit confused by the "single unified work" rule. I'm not sure if we should keep this rule or remove it. Is Planet Earth a single unified work? Is The Storyteller a single unified work?
I think the “single unified work" rule is more important than the episodes cut-off limit. That a series was intended with a limited amount of episodes is what distinguishes mini-series from regular tv-series to me. We could lose to the episodic part in the rule. A series can be episodic but still be meant as a single unified work, like Planet Earth is to me.

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#1100

Post by Tim2460 » December 29th, 2019, 1:40 pm

Are there really enought mini series for a pool? :whistling:

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#1101

Post by mjf314 » December 29th, 2019, 2:57 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
December 29th, 2019, 12:49 pm
I think the “single unified work" rule is more important than the episodes cut-off limit. That a series was intended with a limited amount of episodes is what distinguishes mini-series from regular tv-series to me. We could lose to the episodic part in the rule. A series can be episodic but still be meant as a single unified work, like Planet Earth is to me.
There are some long series that had a limited number of episodes. For example, Monster is 74 episodes, and everything was planned in advance. I'm not sure if any American or British series are like this. Maybe it's only Asian series.

I don't know if other people feel the same way, but what makes the mini-series poll interesting to me is that it's a list of series that I can watch quickly, so I feel like including such a long series would defeat the purpose of the poll.

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#1102

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » December 29th, 2019, 7:14 pm

Tim2460 wrote:
December 29th, 2019, 1:40 pm
Are there really enought mini series for a pool? :whistling:
There are, but whether there are enough which have been seen by enough people here for a meaningful poll is another question.

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#1103

Post by Caracortada » January 10th, 2020, 12:02 am

mjf314 wrote:
December 29th, 2019, 2:57 pm

I don't know if other people feel the same way, but what makes the mini-series poll interesting to me is that it's a list of series that I can watch quickly, so I feel like including such a long series would defeat the purpose of the poll.
Yes, miniseries are essentially TV dramas too long for one episode. They're usually between two and six episodes. Many of them are novel adaptations. It grew out of the experience that a 500 page novel is too long to adapt in two hours. The BBC did a lot of these.

A simple rule could be: it's a miniseries if imdb calls it thus. Heimat with its fIfteen hours is the longest miniseries I know. Die zweite Heimat with its twenty-five hours is a series according to imdb.

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#1104

Post by mjf314 » January 10th, 2020, 12:55 am

Caracortada wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 12:02 am
A simple rule could be: it's a miniseries if imdb calls it thus. Heimat with its fIfteen hours is the longest miniseries I know. Die zweite Heimat with its twenty-five hours is a series according to imdb.
Different IMDb editors use different rules, so it's very inconsistent. For example, a 13-episode single-season anime could be listed on IMDb as either a mini-series or a TV series, depending on who was the last person to update it. I'd rather have a consistent rule.

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#1105

Post by Lonewolf2003 » January 10th, 2020, 9:23 am

mjf314 wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 12:55 am
Caracortada wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 12:02 am
A simple rule could be: it's a miniseries if imdb calls it thus. Heimat with its fIfteen hours is the longest miniseries I know. Die zweite Heimat with its twenty-five hours is a series according to imdb.
Different IMDb editors use different rules, so it's very inconsistent. For example, a 13-episode single-season anime could be listed on IMDb as either a mini-series or a TV series, depending on who was the last person to update it. I'd rather have a consistent rule.
Yes, let's not go with IMDb. They are very inconsistent. I've seen multiple series switch forth and back between mini-series.

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#1106

Post by albajos » January 10th, 2020, 11:45 am

Total length of 8 hours max. It's a work day.

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#1107

Post by Obgeoff » January 10th, 2020, 3:41 pm

Not in Finland according to the new leader.
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#1108

Post by mjf314 » January 20th, 2020, 7:41 pm

To help figure out the mini-series cutoff, I made a list of episode counts and runtimes.

Planet Earth (2006) - 11 episodes, 9 hours
Band of Brothers (2001) - 10 episodes, 10 hours
Dekalog (1989) - 10 episodes, 10 hours
Cowboy Bebop (1998) - 26 episodes, 10 hours
I, Claudius (1976) - 12 episodes, 11 hours
Once Upon a Time... Life (1986) - 26 episodes, 11 hours
Cosmos (1980) - 13 episodes, 13 hours
Freaks and Geeks (1999) - 18 episodes, 13 hours
Future Boy Conan (1978) - 26 episodes, 13 hours
The Prisoner (1967) - 17 episodes, 14 hours
Death Note (2006) - 37 episodes, 14 hours
Heimat (1984) - 11 episodes, 15 hours
Berlin Alexanderplatz (1980) - 14 episodes, 15 hours
The Story of Film: An Odyssey (2011) - 15 episodes, 15 hours
Die zweite Heimat (1992) - 13 episodes, 25 hours

If we use a runtime cutoff, I think 15 hours looks about right. However, this would make Death Note (37 episodes) eligible, as well as many 26-episode anime series. Pushing Daisies is about 15 hours, but it's not eligible because it's 2 seasons.

If we use an episode cutoff, I think anywhere from 15 to 20 is ok. I think The Story of Film should be eligible, but I'm not sure about The Prisoner. I think Freaks and Geeks was originally going to be longer, but cancelled, so it probably shouldn't be eligible. However, an episode cutoff would make Die zweite Heimat (25 hours) eligible. There are a lot of 16-episode Korean series, but probably none of them will make the top 100 anyway.

I think an episode cutoff would be better, because it makes it easier for voters. It's easy to look up the episode count, but sometimes it's difficult to find the total runtime.

Here are a few more series with debatable eligibility:
Firefly (2002) - 14 episodes, and 1 season. However, it was originally going to have more seasons before they cancelled it.
Riget (1994) - 8 episodes, 2 seasons. 4 episodes in 1994, 4 episodes in 1997. Wikipedia calls it a mini-series, but I'm not sure why.
Brass Eye (1997) - The original series had 6 episodes, but they made 1 more episode in 2001.

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#1109

Post by albajos » January 20th, 2020, 7:47 pm

Firefly is not a continous story, there is a new problem in every episode. A continous subplot is not a mini-series, but something you'll find in everything from Seinfeld to Black Books. They even showed the episodes in completely wrong order when it first aired.

So absolutely nothing debateable here.

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#1110

Post by brokenface » January 20th, 2020, 11:29 pm

I was one of the people who suggested Miniseries poll initially but I must admit it is a pretty messy concept with lots of grey areas.

On the one hand you have cases like Heimat or House of Cards (UK) where there was an original miniseries, but it then has sequel(s). Do the sequels make the original no longer a miniseries? Are the sequels each miniseries in their own right? For me, I'd probably say the original can still be considered a miniseries but sequels are probably not (because to some degree they assume prior knowledge. But there are probably exceptions.

Elsewhere you have cases like American Crime Story (The People vs OJ Simpson, The Assassination of Gianni Versace) where each season is really a standalone miniseries but it's released a part of a franchise series with a very loose thematic relationship. I'd say each season of that is very much a miniseries. IMDB does not. Which'll make it logistically tricky if we were to allow them.

TV series that happened to get cancelled after one series are not miniseries to me (Freaks and Geeks, Firefly mentioned above are examples of this). I also don't think something like Brass Eye is a miniseries because it's all self-contained episodes.

I guess it'd all come out in the wash if we're fairly loose on rules & democracy will decide the definitions. Only ones that might be hard-done-by are the things which don't have an IMDB page because they're billed as part of an anthology series.

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#1111

Post by mjf314 » January 21st, 2020, 12:44 am

brokenface wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 11:29 pm
On the one hand you have cases like Heimat or House of Cards (UK) where there was an original miniseries, but it then has sequel(s). Do the sequels make the original no longer a miniseries? Are the sequels each miniseries in their own right? For me, I'd probably say the original can still be considered a miniseries but sequels are probably not (because to some degree they assume prior knowledge. But there are probably exceptions.
I think the first season should count as a mini-series if it was originally planned to be one season, AND there's a gap of more than 1 year.

Heimat season 2 came 9 years after season 1, and (according to Wikipedia) the director decided to make season 2 in 1985, which was 1 year after season 1, so season 1 should count as a mini-series.

House of Cards season 2 was based on a book that was published 3 years after season 1, so I think season 1 should count as a mini-series.

Another example is The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. There were two seasons, in 2006 and 2009, and I think of season 1 as a mini-series. I think they started planning season 2 in 2007, but season 2 wasn't good, so I just pretend that it doesn't exist.

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#1112

Post by Fergenaprido » January 21st, 2020, 3:09 am

Instead of an episode OR runtime cutoff, you could have an episode AND runtime cutoff?

Or, to keep it simpler, use imdb as a guideline, and then deal with edge cases individually if and only if people discuss them in the thread. If they just add them to their list without asking, then exclude those shows. Unless imdb is really unreliable in a lot of cases, the only wiggle room I see is for anthology series mentioned above where each season is self-contained. Since each season doesn't have it's own imdb page, you could submit the first episode as a placeholder instead. And also for some things like Salem's Lot that seem to keep bouncing back and forth between being a miniseries and a two-part tv movie on imdb. Oh, and web-mini-series I'm assuming would be eligible.

Agreed that cancelled TV shows should not be eligible.

I've only seen 7 mini-series so will submit a short list if anything at all. Just like films can have sequels, I have no issue with miniseries having sequels, provided they're considered separate by all/most people/sites (i.e. Big Little Lies may have been intended as a miniseries, but when they added season 2 they just continued the story and called it season 2; House of Cards UK's two sequels are both considered and presented as two separate series despite being a continuation of the story).

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#1113

Post by Tim2460 » January 21st, 2020, 6:46 am

It may be difficult to get the number of episodes and total length from imdb.... I had a lot of problems sorting out the Russian sherlock Holmes episoded/seasons lately.
We'll have to double check the final list before I release the results I guess...

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#1114

Post by Lonewolf2003 » January 21st, 2020, 11:33 am

Based on mjfs overview I would be for episode cap of 15-16 episodes.

Shows that were intended as longer series but cancelled after the first (fe Firefly and Freaks & Geeks) aren’t mini-series.

Anthology series like American Crime Story or multiple “season” mini-series like House of Cards or Blackadder I’m in doubt about. I would say the later are eligible the former not.

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#1115

Post by albajos » January 21st, 2020, 11:41 am

18-22 episodes are considered a full season though. I would never go above 10.

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#1116

Post by mjf314 » January 21st, 2020, 3:03 pm

Tim2460 wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 6:46 am
It may be difficult to get the number of episodes and total length from imdb.... I had a lot of problems sorting out the Russian sherlock Holmes episoded/seasons lately.
We'll have to double check the final list before I release the results I guess...
Wikipedia seems to be fairly reliable for looking up episode counts. I'm not sure if there's a reliable source for total runtime.

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#1117

Post by Caracortada » January 26th, 2020, 8:10 pm

The difference between TV movie, mini-series and series can be confusing. According to imdb some of the Miss Marple adaptations with Joan Hickson are mini-series; others are TV movies. I suppose the longer ones were aired in two or three episodes.

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#1118

Post by Tim2460 » January 27th, 2020, 9:34 am

The Pool is supposed to start soon and i must work on the opening post.

IMHO we should use an episode cut-off of 15 (or maybe 16 for the Korean Spécific) ??

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112159 is an TV Series -> excluded 26 episodes
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0185906 is an TV Mini Series -> ok 10 epidodess.

The episode cut off will exclude the "usual" anime series

When buiding the excel result sheet, i'll be able to check easily entries that are not not tagged as mini-series and investigate theses cases.
If not heavily debates on the forum ...this could do the trick and not be too much time consumming.

So the rules would be.
"Mini-series must be 16 episodes or less, not multiple seasons, and not planned to be longer but canceled. The series should be intended as a single unified work and not episodic."
Only problem i see is that ... it's not exactly the same as the 500<400 rule :)

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#1119

Post by albajos » January 27th, 2020, 9:39 am

I'm voting for a 24 episode mini, but every episode is just 10 minutes so onky 4 hours in total

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#1120

Post by Lonewolf2003 » January 27th, 2020, 10:17 am

Tim2460 wrote:
January 27th, 2020, 9:34 am
The Pool is supposed to start soon and i must work on the opening post.

IMHO we should use an episode cut-off of 15 (or maybe 16 for the Korean Spécific) ??

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112159 is an TV Series -> excluded 26 episodes
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0185906 is an TV Mini Series -> ok 10 epidodess.

The episode cut off will exclude the "usual" anime series

When buiding the excel result sheet, i'll be able to check easily entries that are not not tagged as mini-series and investigate theses cases.
If not heavily debates on the forum ...this could do the trick and not be too much time consumming.

So the rules would be.
"Mini-series must be 16 episodes or less, not multiple seasons, and not planned to be longer but canceled. The series should be intended as a single unified work and not episodic."
Only problem i see is that ... it's not exactly the same as the 500<400 rule :)
Sounds good to me.

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