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New Official List Discussion

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Onderhond
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#5001

Post by Onderhond »

St. Gloede wrote: December 28th, 2020, 12:12 pm Given that the 2010s is in fact better represented that most decades
In Dutch we have the word "scorebordjournalistiek". Bit hard to translate into English (I don't think there's a real equivalent), but it means drawing up conclusions purely based on numbers rather than looking at the actual situation. It comes from the world of sports, where for example a (football)team might win 1-0, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the better team (it was merely more lucky/efficient than the other team).

With large lists like the Box Office and TSPDT 21st Century the numbers for 21st century films will rise pretty quickly, but these lists cover rather small (but popular) niches of the current film landscape (popular commercial + popular arthouse). You're out of luck if you want to explore films for niches not covered by these bigger lists.

But to be really clear (and I'll just speak for myself now), the 21st century could really do with better/broader representation over different genres, niches, countries and movements on ICM.
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#5002

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Onderhond wrote: December 28th, 2020, 12:21 pm
St. Gloede wrote: December 28th, 2020, 12:12 pm Given that the 2010s is in fact better represented that most decades
In Dutch we have the word "scorebordjournalistiek". Bit hard to translate into English (I don't think there's a real equivalent), but it means drawing up conclusions purely based on numbers rather than looking at the actual situation. It comes from the world of sports, where for example a (football)team might win 1-0, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the better team (it was merely more lucky/efficient than the other team).

With large lists like the Box Office and TSPDT 21st Century the numbers for 21st century films will rise pretty quickly, but these lists cover rather small (but popular) niches of the current film landscape (popular commercial + popular arthouse). You're out of luck if you want to explore films for niches not covered by these bigger lists.

But to be really clear (and I'll just speak for myself now), the 21st century could really do with better/broader representation over different genres, niches, countries and movements on ICM.
But then it's the question not if the 2010s are well represented, but if certain movements, genres or niches are well represented. Which leads to the question if you want to solve that problem with a list focusing on the decade or on those movements, genres or types of movies. Which is something we are totally aware of, but is often also hard to remedy because there is just little representation on lists (that are adopt worthy) of these kind of movies.

General decade lists will always inherently focus on more popular commercial and popular arthouse. With general movement and genre lists we will want to adopt list that cover the whole genre or movement, so also the previous century. Same goes for country lists (there is still one decade oriented list about a huge country in debate among the mods), but generally speaking we are looking for list covering the whole film history of that country (especially for countries without a list yet). List that focus on a genre or movement that are so niche they only exist this century I honestly don’t see get adopted soon. We would eventually like to also adopt more niche centered list, if an adoptable one exist, about specific niches be it 21st century (sub)genres/movement or older ones, but that most probably won't be done in 2021.
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#5003

Post by Onderhond »

I am fully aware of the deadlock that the current adoption rules create for contemporary cinema. The only real hope there is that more people complain, which could lead to a revision of adoption rules :)
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#5004

Post by St. Gloede »

Haha, but what is the deadlock/copmplaint?

Is it that iCM should make micro-niches official? I'm not necessarily opposed - but I don't understand what this has to do with contemporary cinema.

If done I would also like lists for, say Cinema Marginal, Black Wave, Dogme 95, etc.

Covering various movements/niches is something that could be very useful, and is obviously lacking beyond Noir, Martial Arts and perhaps a few others larger niches - but what is the tie-in with the 21st century.

Or to do back to the first question: What is the complaint?

I understand what you want broader representation - but what does this look like, how can it be achieved and has this been achieved with previous periods?
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#5005

Post by Onderhond »

St. Gloede wrote: December 28th, 2020, 1:28 pm I understand what you want broader representation - but what does this look like, how can it be achieved and has this been achieved with previous periods?
While I don't doubt the sincerity of the question(s), I feel that at this point I could just recite the entire discussion on my own, without intervention of anyone else. The current adoption rules are simply not compliant with my personal needs/wants (in particular a deep dive into contemporary Asian cinema and contemporary genre cinema) and that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. I'm okay with that though, but I'll voice my support when I see others who have similar issues with ICM.

Also, good luck getting up to date on contemporary martial arts cinema using ICM ('s official lists) :D
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#5006

Post by Daviddoes »

St. Gloede wrote: December 28th, 2020, 1:28 pm Is it that iCM should make micro-niches official? I'm not necessarily opposed - but I don't understand what this has to do with contemporary cinema.

If done I would also like lists for, say Cinema Marginal, Black Wave, Dogme 95, etc.
I like the sound of that. I know we don't have a lot of official lists with less than 50 movies (and most of the ones that we do have are award lists that will grow with time) but I would like to see more of these micro-niches official even if the list is only 10-50 movies long. Here's a list I found for Yugoslav Black Wave as an example http://www.tasteofcinema.com/2014/15-es ... lack-wave/. I don't know if the source would be considered good enough for adoption but it's just what I found with a quick search.
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#5007

Post by Coryn »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: December 28th, 2020, 8:30 am The problem is that the complaint is phrased as: "underrepresentation of 21st century/contemporary cinema" when there are 1608 (9.9%) official checks from the 2010s and 3828 (23.6%) from the 2000s+2010s out of 16246 official checks.
Perhaps the representation is lacking in some areas or tastes, but it's not a lack of films from this century overall that is the problem.
Could you also compare for example per decade: Movies with official checks in a certain decade / total movies from that decade

I mean 23,6% of the officials are from the last 20 years is official which is in my opinion not under nor overpresentation but I'd like to see if there is an even distribution if you check the total films made in each decade.


I was browsing the lists and just saw that a lot of lists are based on books or lists made in the 2000s, therefore not giving any chance of a 2010s movie joining it. To counter these kinds of lists, and it's not only book ones, having niche lists from the 21st century might be a good idea.
21st century war, romance, documentaries, ...
I saved Latin, what did you ever do ?
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#5008

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Daviddoes wrote: December 28th, 2020, 2:03 pm
St. Gloede wrote: December 28th, 2020, 1:28 pm Is it that iCM should make micro-niches official? I'm not necessarily opposed - but I don't understand what this has to do with contemporary cinema.

If done I would also like lists for, say Cinema Marginal, Black Wave, Dogme 95, etc.
I like the sound of that. I know we don't have a lot of official lists with less than 50 movies (and most of the ones that we do have are award lists that will grow with time) but I would like to see more of these micro-niches official even if the list is only 10-50 movies long. Here's a list I found for Yugoslav Black Wave as an example http://www.tasteofcinema.com/2014/15-es ... lack-wave/. I don't know if the source would be considered good enough for adoption but it's just what I found with a quick search.
Like I said as mods we would eventually like to adopt also lists focusing more on specific niches, f.e. subgenres or movements. List that aim more for deep dives for experts instead of the more general lists that function more like gateway entry lists. But first there are some more less niche gaps on iCM we would like to address before that.
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#5009

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Coryn wrote: December 28th, 2020, 2:24 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: December 28th, 2020, 8:30 am The problem is that the complaint is phrased as: "underrepresentation of 21st century/contemporary cinema" when there are 1608 (9.9%) official checks from the 2010s and 3828 (23.6%) from the 2000s+2010s out of 16246 official checks.
Perhaps the representation is lacking in some areas or tastes, but it's not a lack of films from this century overall that is the problem.
Could you also compare for example per decade: Movies with official checks in a certain decade / total movies from that decade

I mean 23,6% of the officials are from the last 20 years is official which is in my opinion not under nor overpresentation but I'd like to see if there is an even distribution if you check the total films made in each decade.
I'm sure there are more films made this century than in previous decades but there's no easy way to see how many since the database has tv shows ànd episodes and youtube videos ànd porn and all sorts of things. As viewers, those paying attention to what's released will have a much more complex perspective of what is released now than of old films where all the lesser known films fade away. I'm not saying there are no recency gaps, but the perception of representation is to some extent due to a more complex knowledge of what is released now.
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#5010

Post by St. Gloede »

Onderhond wrote: December 28th, 2020, 1:41 pm
St. Gloede wrote: December 28th, 2020, 1:28 pm I understand what you want broader representation - but what does this look like, how can it be achieved and has this been achieved with previous periods?
While I don't doubt the sincerity of the question(s), I feel that at this point I could just recite the entire discussion on my own, without intervention of anyone else. The current adoption rules are simply not compliant with my personal needs/wants (in particular a deep dive into contemporary Asian cinema and contemporary genre cinema) and that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. I'm okay with that though, but I'll voice my support when I see others who have similar issues with ICM.

Also, good luck getting up to date on contemporary martial arts cinema using ICM ('s official lists) :D
No worries, apologies if the questions seemed circular - read through the above conversation and never saw it addressed.

I suppose one key issue, which you allude to here as well, is that many lists are outdated - and I agree - they should be updated the moment an adequate new resource becomes available.

One hopefully not circular question/statement though:

Given the fact that the 21st Century Latin American list got adopted, I don't see anything stopping a more broad list of 21st century Asian cinema - there just needs to be a reputable source. These "placeholder" lists made to keep people up to date on films/trends before they are canonized are quite useful and there should be a good argument for them that by no means go against the current adoption rules. There must be something that fits that description from a reputable source given the popularity of Asian cinema in arthouse circles, genre/cult circles and to an extent even more mainstream circles.
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#5011

Post by Onderhond »

St. Gloede wrote: December 28th, 2020, 8:05 pm No worries, apologies if the questions seemed circular - read through the above conversation and never saw it addressed.
No, I've been avoiding getting into the same discussions over and over again. I was talking to discussions in the past :)
St. Gloede wrote: December 28th, 2020, 8:05 pm there just needs to be a reputable source.
I think this is one of the prime deadlock criteria. Reputable sources on contemporary cinema are very hard to find and the ones that do pop up are very Western-centric. So even if we do get a contemporary Asian cinema list, it'll be mostly films that made it big in the West (Jia, Bi Gan, Park, Koreeda), which won't be very interesting for deep dives and which will no doubt again overlap with existing lists. Reputation on ICM mostly means popularity and/or arthouse/critics cred.

A bigger problem imo is that to really address this shortcoming of ICM, you'd need a somewhat different organization (with broader/reputable official lists as they are defined now and more personal deep dive lists per niche, which are something separate unless you want 1000 official lists). That too has been discussed, but since we've been waiting 7 years for a codebase renewal/redesign that doesn't seem to be a very realistic option, so hardly worth thinking about.

I appreciate the effort you're putting in, but I've given up some time ago I'm afraid. I've (somewhat begrudgingly) found peace with ICM being a good "cinema homework" site :D
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#5012

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Onderhond wrote: December 28th, 2020, 9:26 pm A bigger problem imo is that to really address this shortcoming of ICM, you'd need a somewhat different organization (with broader/reputable official lists as they are defined now and more personal deep dive lists per niche, which are something separate unless you want 1000 official lists).
This is my #1 desire, but yeah, I don't see it any time soon.
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#5013

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Yeah, like I said above we want to do deep dive lists per niche, but the iCM adoption trains moves very slowly, like an oil tanker, so it won't happen soon.
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#5014

Post by Onderhond »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: December 30th, 2020, 6:03 pm Yeah, like I said above we want to do deep dive lists per niche, but the iCM adoption trains moves very slowly, like an oil tanker, so it won't happen soon.
It's not even an adoption issue though, is it? You can't just adopt 500 niche lists, that would throw off the more canon-like direction ICM is striving for right now. I don't think it could even work without reorganizing the site a little.
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#5015

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond wrote: December 30th, 2020, 6:11 pm that would throw off the more canon-like direction ICM is striving for right now.
This is quite a mischaracterization of the adoption process. How are things like Silver Condor and Pinoy Rebyu "canonical"? Yes, some of the lists are someone's canon, but the vast majority are all over the place. Additionally, mods are looking for good quality lists (in terms of their subject matter, not their canon-ness) and for good lists that fill a given gap. The lists I mention do that for Argentina and the Philippines, but since the Silver Condor list is akin to the Euro Film Awards and Academy Awards, it can hardly be characterized as "canonical".

As for Pinoy Rebyu, while it is another list of "best" films from a given location, and that might construe canon-worthy-ness to some, the way these lists are compiled vary from place to place and compiler to compiler. I'm unwilling to call most of this canon-worthy, but it does give interested viewers a place to start looking for films that are viewed with some degree of favor in their home country. To me that's a big plus.

Decade lists aren't canon. Fan favorite lists aren't canon. And while I'm sure there are some horror fans who look at the TSZDT list as canonical, that really seems an overstatement to me. Maybe the top 50 belong in some mythical film canon.

And besides, what's canon? If iCM was doing as you say, they would probably be ignoring individual lists and compiling a new list from all the sources - say, like TSZDT or TSPDT. I know of no effort to say "only films on 10 or more official lists will be official canon checks".

I've got no idea where you get this canon-bent other than it's because the mods aren't catering to your individual tastes and wants. Funny thing, I don't think they are catering to anyone in particular and are simply trying their damnndest to find good lists for a given target area.
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#5016

Post by Onderhond »

xianjiro wrote: December 30th, 2020, 10:06 pm And besides, what's canon?
I dunno? What's life? Why are we here? Are we even here?

Not really in the mood for these semantic discussions. If you don't feel canon fits, that is fine by me.
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#5017

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond wrote: December 30th, 2020, 10:10 pm
xianjiro wrote: December 30th, 2020, 10:06 pm And besides, what's canon?
I dunno? What's life? Why are we here? Are we even here?

Not really in the mood for these semantic discussions. If you don't feel canon fits, that is fine by me.
No, I don't believe your characterization of the work the mods are trying to do fits. Big difference.
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#5019

Post by flavo5000 »

WalterNeff wrote: December 30th, 2020, 11:14 pm Isn't this canon? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_T ... roup_films
Can we get this Cannon-ical list adopted immediately please? :party:
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#5020

Post by OldAle1 »

WalterNeff wrote: December 30th, 2020, 11:14 pm Isn't this canon? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_T ... roup_films
Chuck Norris and Michael Dudikoff say it is, and that's enough for me.
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#5021

Post by Panunzio »

On the subject of 'themed' lists (which I totally agree should be considered more), how would people feel about lists like Baalman's lists coverig things like the top business films (https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/top+ ... s/baalman/). It covers a niche that isn't really dealt with at the moment, and includes a host of non-official films that are notable works on the subject. He has a fair few lists that would be very interesting with a little bit of tweaking.
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#5022

Post by beasterne »

Panunzio wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 8:14 pm On the subject of 'themed' lists (which I totally agree should be considered more), how would people feel about lists like Baalman's lists coverig things like the top business films (https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/top+ ... s/baalman/). It covers a niche that isn't really dealt with at the moment, and includes a host of non-official films that are notable works on the subject. He has a fair few lists that would be very interesting with a little bit of tweaking.
I would be very in favor of such themed lists, and the business films list you gave is a great example of a gap in the current official lists. Other themes that we're sorely missing right now: holiday movies, courtroom/legal movies, nature/environmental movies, and sports movies (beyond just the IMDb list). We already have themed lists for road movies and gangster movies, so adding these additional themes makes complete sense to me.
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#5023

Post by dirty_score »

You can adopt this mega list from a book: The Rough Guide to Cult Movies.

Pretty much cover all themes.
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#5024

Post by Prat »

New official lists just appeared !
Sector Cine's Best Mexican Films of All Time : https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/sect ... +all+time/
Pixar Directors Recommend: Films to Watch with Kids Under 13 : https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/pixa ... +under+13/

(I posted in the wrong topic before, sorry ;) )
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#5025

Post by St. Gloede »

The Mexican list looks really promising!
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#5026

Post by Harco »

Prat wrote: January 8th, 2021, 9:55 am New official lists just appeared !
Sector Cine's Best Mexican Films of All Time : https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/sect ... +all+time/
Pixar Directors Recommend: Films to Watch with Kids Under 13 : https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/pixa ... +under+13/

(I posted in the wrong topic before, sorry ;) )
Regarding the Pixar list, the All Ages list on Letterboxd has Shaun the Sheep: The Movie listed, while the iCM list has the series listed. Which site has got it wrong?
Last edited by Harco on January 8th, 2021, 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
:ICM: | :letbxd:
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#5027

Post by Onderhond »

Best Mexican:

Seen: 9/100 (9.00%)
Highest unchecked: Los caifanes (#2)
Number of favorites: 1/9 (11.11%)
Highest favorite: El laberinto del fauno (#23)
Number of dislikes: 2/9 (22.22%)
Highest dislike: El ángel exterminador (#3)
Unique officials: 32/100 (32.00%)

Pixar for kids:

Seen: 72/97 (74.23%)
Highest unchecked: Charlotte's Web (#4)
Number of favorites: 8/72 (11.11%)
Highest favorite: Tonari no Totoro (#25)
Number of dislikes: 29/72 (40.28%)
Highest dislike: Annie (#1)
Unique officials: 17/97 (17.53%)

That Pixar list really is dreadful. At least there's quite a few uniques in both lists.
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#5028

Post by Tim2460 »

That Unique Officials Counter is quite cool Onder ... do you do it by hand ?
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#5029

Post by ChrisReynolds »

I was just entering in a complaint that the list had the wrong Shaun the Sheep, but it looks like it's been fixed now.
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#5030

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Harco wrote: January 8th, 2021, 10:24 am
Prat wrote: January 8th, 2021, 9:55 am New official lists just appeared !
Sector Cine's Best Mexican Films of All Time : https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/sect ... +all+time/
Pixar Directors Recommend: Films to Watch with Kids Under 13 : https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/pixa ... +under+13/

(I posted in the wrong topic before, sorry ;) )
Regarding the Pixar list, the All Ages list on Letterboxd has Shaun the Sheep: The Movie listed, while the iCM list has the series listed. Which site has got it wrong?
The Letterboxd list is the source, so that one is correct. Corrected the iCM list. Thanks for noticing.
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#5031

Post by Onderhond »

Tim2460 wrote: January 8th, 2021, 11:06 am That Unique Officials Counter is quite cool Onder ... do you do it by hand ?
No, the entire block is a user script I made.
It's somewhere in the script thread :)
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#5032

Post by Onderhond »

Tim2460 wrote: January 8th, 2021, 11:06 am That Unique Officials Counter is quite cool Onder ... do you do it by hand ?
Here's the link
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#5033

Post by kongs_speech »

The Pixar list is cool. The Mexican list is not cool simply because I only have two checks on it. :P
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
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#5034

Post by Tim2460 »

Onder : when i save it my Tamper says it's invalid ....

Quick Overview don't strike me ... But i"m a Cobol Guy ,)
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#5035

Post by beasterne »

Yay for new lists! Glad we finally have a list of recommendations for kids, beyond the imdb Family list at least. The Pixar list is probably the best of the ones we've looked at and I completely agree with adding a combined list of the under 13 recommendations while leaving out the recommendations for 12+.
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#5036

Post by Onderhond »

beasterne wrote: January 8th, 2021, 2:43 pm The Pixar list is probably the best of the ones we've looked at
So basically children should be mostly watching US films, with just a sliver of Ghibli? :shrug:
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#5037

Post by OldAle1 »

Onderhond wrote: January 8th, 2021, 2:46 pm
beasterne wrote: January 8th, 2021, 2:43 pm The Pixar list is probably the best of the ones we've looked at
So basically children should be mostly watching US films, with just a sliver of Ghibli? :shrug:
Well duh. Look how great our country is! And it's because of our wonderful culture, including our movies. I'm sure anybody seeing how America has prospered, particularly over the last 4 years, would want their kids to be as in tune as possible with the pop culture that gave us our wonderful leaders and our sophisticated approach to the unique problems we have in the world today. AMERIKKKA RULEZ!
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#5038

Post by beasterne »

I will agree that it's not the best possible list that could be made. I would back our forum list for that purpose, but I know ICM won't be adopting forum polls any time soon. But comparing this to other existing lists that cover similar ground it's definitely the best option.

For example, we could go with the BFI list if we want more international representation https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/brit ... iedearest/, but then we wind up recommending a movie like The Spirit of the Beehive or Playtime or The Night of the Hunter to a child, and I mean they're good movies but I don't know if a 7 year old is going to pay much attention to these films.

And the other lists that were discussed in the previous thread were much more tilted towards American and recent releases than this one even is. I think the Pixar list does a good job of balancing the needs of such a list, while acknowledging that a full poll list with broad international representation would be preferred.
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#5039

Post by jeroeno »

Sector Cine's Best Mexican Films of All Time 85/100
Pixar Directors Recommend: Films to Watch with Kids Under 13 84/97

That Pixar list is horrible but if those are the films the Pixar Directors recommend... :shrug: :folded:
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#5040

Post by Torgo »

beasterne wrote: January 8th, 2021, 2:43 pm Yay for new lists! Glad we finally have a list of recommendations for kids, beyond the imdb Family list at least. The Pixar list is probably the best of the ones we've looked at and I completely agree with adding a combined list of the under 13 recommendations while leaving out the recommendations for 12+.
Totally! It's a sweet list, many films which make me smile just scrolling by. And the Shaun the Sheep Movie became official, how cool is that?

Sector Cine 10/100 -> #781
Pixar 68/97 -> #268

In the Mexican list, 10 of my checks are among the 11 most-checked titles from it. Oops :ph43r:
At Pixar (not featuring Pixar), I wanted to see a lot of my unchecked ones either way, like Pee-wee, Winnie the Pooh or Paddington 2 (a 100%-rated Rotten Tomatoes record masterpiece of a film, yo!).
Last edited by Torgo on January 9th, 2021, 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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