New Official List Discussion

[Nathan Treadway]

I don't think we've ever formally notified anyone. Some sources are involved/aware like TSPDT and SWDB but otherwise, no.

Forgive the ignorance, but, I'm racking my brain trying to figure this one out?

[Harco]

Haha, yeah, couldn’t figure that one out by myself either. Then I had a look at the official lists and figured it probably was Spaghetti Western Database.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

Yeah, Spaghetti westerns.

[joachimt]

And I think the person behind TSZDT probably knows about iCM as well.

[mjf314]

Has any of the source list creators ever been notified when the lists have been adopted? I don't think The New York times would care much, but I can imagine someone like an employee of Muzeum Kinematografii w Łodzi sharing the news on their social media etc. Might attract some new users as well.

The webmaster of LoveHKFilm tweeted about the list being official (we didn't notify him; he found out on his own).

[xianjiro]

Won't someone please tell Roger Ebert?

[Knaldskalle]

Won't someone please tell Roger Ebert?

[xianjiro]

Won't someone please tell Roger Ebert?

What do you mean he just told you that 63 Up should be included in the list?

[kongs_speech]

It would be really cool if Edgar Wright's top 1000 was an official list. He's one of the most significant contemporary mainstream directors, it's the largest list I've ever seen assembled by a director, and it contains some unique films.

[Teproc]

I think the issue with that is it just would seem weird to have these 100 films-long lists from major directors and a 1000 film-long list from Edgar Wright who, much as I love him, is not what I'd call major. Also I don't think the list is that unique, but it's an ok list anyway.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

Pretty much. It's not a list we've shut the door on, but the balance of notability and list length causes some reservations.

[kongs_speech]

Wright's list contains 81 films that aren't official checks. I get that it's larger than the other director lists, but I don't see that as a bad thing. It's just my opinion, but I think it's worth serious consideration. It would add many more genre flicks and b-movies.

The Monolith Monsters (1957)
The Mouse That Roared (1959)
Beat Girl (1960)
Bitter Harvest (1963)
First Men in the Moon (1964)
The 10th Victim (1965)
Batman: The Movie (1966)
Gambit (1966)
Magical Mystery Tour (1967)
Robbery (1967)

The President's Analyst (1967)
Dark of the Sun (1968)
Pretty Poison (1968)
Wild in the Streets (1968)
Last Summer (1969)
Sweet Charity (1969)
The Laughing Woman (1969)
Where's Poppa? (1970)
S.W.A.L.K. (1971)
The Anderson Tapes (1971)

The Boy Friend (1971)
Prime Cut (1972)
The Mechanic (1972)
Slither (1973)
The Asphyx (1973)
The Seven-Ups (1973)
White Lightning (1973)
Busting (1974)
Freebie and the Bean (1974)
Phase IV (1974)

The Super Cops (1974)
Murder by Death (1976)
Capricorn One (1977)
The Kentucky Fried Movie (1977)
Coma (1978)
Death on the Nile (1978)
The Black Hole (1979)
The Wanderers (1979)
Winter Kills (1979)
Looker (1981)

Sharky's Machine (1981)
Venom (1981)
Into the Night (1985)
Innerspace (1987)
Sign o' the Times (1987)
Manly Games (1988)
Raising Cain (1992)
I Love a Man in Uniform (1993)
Amateur (1994)
The Doom Generation (1995)

The Quick and the Dead (1995)
Citizen Ruth (1996)
Freeway (1996)
Retroactive (1997)
Summer of Sam (1999)
The Filth and the Fury (2000)
The Low Down (2000)
Windy City Heat (2003)
Born to Fight (2004)
Man on Fire (2004)

Domino (2005)
The Foot First Way (2006)
Crank: High Voltage (2009)
Le Donk and Scor-Zay-Zee (2009)
World's Greatest Dad (2009)
Point Blank (2010)
The Town (2010)
Michael (2011)
Anna Karenina (2012)
Compliance (2012)

Killing Them Softly (2012)
Magic Mike (2012)
Blue Ruin (2013)
Cheap Thrills (2013)
The Counselor (2013)
Love & Mercy (2014)
The One I Love (2014)
Cop Car (2015)
Mistress America (2015)
The Gift (2015)

The Wolf Pack (2015)

[Lonewolf2003]

We, iCM mods, have serious considered and debated it. And have decided against adopting it (for now) for above mentioned reasons.

[Onderhond]

I could get behind it if it would replace one of the 1000 book lists. Sometimes it feels like all those books had the same man/woman picking the films.

[Torgo]

Batman: The Movie (1966)
Gambit (1966)
The Mechanic (1972)
Phase IV (1974)
Murder by Death (1976)
The Kentucky Fried Movie (1977)
Coma (1978)
Death on the Nile (1978)
The Town (2010)
Anna Karenina (2012)
Compliance (2012)
Blue Ruin (2013)

I'm completely against adopting another mixed megalist, but want to point out it's astonishing that some of these films have made it to zero official lists so far. Especially Murder by Death, for me.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

Half those films have been on official lists before. They're all quite good examples of good films that are borderline.

[weirdboy]

Batman: The Movie (1966)
Gambit (1966)
The Mechanic (1972)
Phase IV (1974)
Murder by Death (1976)
The Kentucky Fried Movie (1977)
Coma (1978)
Death on the Nile (1978)
The Town (2010)
Anna Karenina (2012)
Compliance (2012)
Blue Ruin (2013)

I'm completely against adopting another mixed megalist, but want to point out it's astonishing that some of these films have made it to zero official lists so far. Especially Murder by Death, for me.

I am pretty sure that several of those have previously been on official lists at one time or another. They are just not on any official lists currently.

[Ebbywebby]

Wright's list contains 81 films that aren't official checks.

I have a list shared of 226 favorite unofficial checks, and all of these films from Wright's list are on it.

The Mouse That Roared (1959)
Wild in the Streets (1968)
The Boy Friend (1971)
Phase IV (1974)
The Kentucky Fried Movie (1977)
The Wanderers (1979)
The Filth and the Fury (2000)

[kongs_speech]

Wright's list contains 81 films that aren't official checks.

I have a list shared of 226 favorite unofficial checks, and all of these films from Wright's list are on it.

The Mouse That Roared (1959)
Wild in the Streets (1968)
The Boy Friend (1971)
Phase IV (1974)
The Kentucky Fried Movie (1977)
The Wanderers (1979)
The Filth and the Fury (2000)

The Boy Friend is a favorite of several people I know. I own the Warner Archive Blu. Need to give it a spin sometime.

[WalterNeff]

The Boy Friend is a favorite of several people I know.

Life without us is quite impossible
And devoid of all charms
No amount of idle gossip'll
Keep them out of our arms

[beasterne]

Whatever I may think of those films, they're all actual films so yeah I don't really have an issue with making TV movies eligible. We'd have to change all the links though so I don't know how long it will take to make a change.

Just bumping this since it's been a few months since the discussion wound down and I haven't seen any recent updates.

It sounded like there was pretty broad consensus around including TV-movies and TV-shorts in the imdb-sourced lists as of the last post. I'm wondering if this is still the plan or if it's fallen off the radar.

One other potential idea that I had the other day was whether it might make sense to create two new lists, one for TV Movies and one for TV Shorts, rather than integrating them into the existing lists? That way we would have lists that complement the existing official Mini-Series list, and keeps them separated for those who want to maintain the separation between TV and Film. Thoughts?

[xianjiro]

Whatever I may think of those films, they're all actual films so yeah I don't really have an issue with making TV movies eligible. We'd have to change all the links though so I don't know how long it will take to make a change.

Just bumping this since it's been a few months since the discussion wound down and I haven't seen any recent updates.

It sounded like there was pretty broad consensus around including TV-movies and TV-shorts in the imdb-sourced lists as of the last post. I'm wondering if this is still the plan or if it's fallen off the radar.

One other potential idea that I had the other day was whether it might make sense to create two new lists, one for TV Movies and one for TV Shorts, rather than integrating them into the existing lists? That way we would have lists that complement the existing official Mini-Series list, and keeps them separated for those who want to maintain the separation between TV and Film. Thoughts?

I don't suffer from an anti-TV bias, especially now that movies will regularly debut on streaming platforms (instead or along side of in theatres). We need to be prepared for that change. Don't know that I have a strong preference for separate lists - though being able to see a real-life example might sway my opinion.

[weirdboy]

What is the counter-example of a list that explicitly does not include TV content? I cannot think of one.

[beasterne]

What is the counter-example of a list that explicitly does not include TV content? I cannot think of one.

IMDb's Shorts Top 50 only includes films with the "short" tag. Examples of films that are excluded due to the TV tag are The Snowman (1982) which has a TV Short tag, and How the Grinch Stole Christmas (1966)which has a TV Movie tag but is under 45 minutes in length.

I believe that all of the other IMDB-sourced lists (except the Top 25) only include movies with a "Movie" tag, and exclude films with a "TV Movie" tag. Here are some quotes pulled from earlier in the thread that discuss what would be included in our current lists if we started to include the previously excluded entries:

The old imdb lists excluded made-for-tv films from their decade and genre toplists, so I think we just inherited that filter on icm. I don't know if it was always that way, though, because A Muppet Family Christmas used to be on the Shorts list, and that's also a TV movie (though it's not a short - I fixed that on imdb and then it was removed from the list).

If we did include TV Shorts in the filter for the imdb Shorts list, 6 of them would enter the toplist:
#5 Too Many Cooks
#10 Padal proshlogodniy sneg [Last Year's Snow Was Falling]
#12 How the Grinch Stole Christmas
#28 The Snowman
#42 Robot Chicken: Star Wars
#43 Robot Chicken: Star Wars Episode II

Charlie Brown wouldn't make it (yet) because it's categorized as a TV Movie instead of TV Short. I've just submitted a correction on imdb, so hopefully that will be changed in a day or two. It also didn't have the Short genre tag.

If we already allow for TV movies to be eligible for the imdb docs list (and yes, to answer your earlier question, we're only discussing the imdb lists [excluding the Top 250 since that's a separate beast]), then I would be in favour of allowing TV movies to be eligible for the other genre and decade lists. And yes, while the current check threshold may only impact a few titles now, I think we need to make an informed decision knowing that eventually more titles will cross that threshold. We should be making a decision based on the long term, not just what's currently affected; I don't want to have the same discussion every time a new TV Movie crosses the check threshold.

Aside from Rudolph & The War Game (and the shorts mentioned in a previous post), possible future entries to the imdb lists include...
Heart of a Dog - 769 checks, on Empire Russia & ICM Most Favorited
The Very Same Munchhausen - 432 checks, on the same two lists
Temple Grandin - 1394 checks, on 0 official lists
Edvard Munch - 784 checks, on 8 official lists, including ICM Most Favorited and TSPDT
Prayers for Bobby - 666 checks, on 0 official lists
A Muppet Family Christmas - 1116 checks, on 0 official lists
La classe américaine - 418 checks, on Time Out's French & ICM Most Favorited
Threads - 813 checks, on DTC, TSZDT, & ICM Most Favorited

I didn't expect so much overlap with the Most Favorited list.

[dirty_score]

Any early christmas presents?

[PeacefulAnarchy]

Probably late presents as usual.

[Coryn]

I really hope there are going to be some lists adopted for 2010s movies. There still is an immense discrepancy between movies made in the 21th and movies made in the 20th century. On average older movies have it way easier on ICM, definitely movies made in the last 10 years have a hard time due to multiple lists which are based on for example books made in the 2000s.

I know I sound repetitive and boring because I have said this before but it always bothered me a lot.

One group that gets even discriminated more than recent movies are documentaries. Artsy docus have their chance to get on official lists but for the others it's really hard.

[Torgo]

These new docs really blossom on our <500 list, though.

You do have a point with recent movies which are not artsy/festival fodder, Onderhond would join your argument any second.
I always like new lists with new stuff

[Fergenaprido]

I really hope there are going to be some lists adopted for 2010s movies. There still is an immense discrepancy between movies made in the 21th and movies made in the 20th century. On average older movies have it way easier on ICM, definitely movies made in the last 10 years have a hard time due to multiple lists which are based on for example books made in the 2000s.

I know I sound repetitive and boring because I have said this before but it always bothered me a lot.

One group that gets even discriminated more than recent movies are documentaries. Artsy docus have their chance to get on official lists but for the others it's really hard.

You know we adopted a 2010s decade list earlier this year, right?: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/a.v. ... the+2010s/
There's also the imdb 2010s list and the TSPDT 21C list, and the Worldwide Box Office list contains a large number of films from the last decade.

Films take time to achieve "status", so it's no big surprise that recent films don't appear on as many official lists as older ones do. I don't think adopting more 2010s-specific lists is the right way to address the dearth of films from the decade represented on icm. As time goes on, more lists will be published, and some big ones will be updated (Sight and Sound, for example), and more 2010s films will appear on more lists. Yes, there's a lagtime, but I don't think it's that big of an issue.

As for docs, there are 4 doc-specific lists already, and aside from the imdb and other genre lists, there's a fair amount of representation of documentaries in other lists. I'm not sure what you mean by "artsy docs", but I don't think there's a lack of representation of documentaries in general on icm.

Combining recent + docs, for example, there are 114 documentaries on the TSPDT 21st C list: https://beta.icheckmovies.com/lists/47- ... ocumentary
That's just over 11%, which is more than I would have guessed.

These new docs really blossom on our <500 list, though.

You do have a point with recent movies which are not artsy/festival fodder, Onderhond would join your argument any second.
I always like new lists with new stuff

Well, one argument against that point is the Box Office Mojo Worldwide list. Currently 486 films from that list are from the 2010s: https://beta.icheckmovies.com/lists/53- ... ar%3A2010s
That's almost 50% of the list. And I doubt any of them are "artsy/festival fodder" (except maybe Joker)

[kongs_speech]

I actually agree with Ferg this time. Considering that they just happened, I feel that the 2010s currently have enough representation. The 21st century TSPDT list is a pretty excellent resource, and then of course there's the AV Club, as well as a Latin American 2010s list.

[Onderhond]

You know we adopted a 2010s decade list earlier this year, right?: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/a.v. ... the+2010s/

Unique officials: 2/101 (1.98%)

[Fergenaprido]

You know we adopted a 2010s decade list earlier this year, right?: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/a.v. ... the+2010s/

Unique officials: 2/101 (1.98%)

I don't see your point. I never claimed it was filled with unique officials, but simply reminding Coryn that a 2010s-specific list was recently adopted (and I forgot about the LatAm 2010s list that kongs mentioned), in case he wasn't aware/didn't remember. If asking for "some lists adopted for 2010s movies" meant simply getting 2010s movies onto various lists that aren't decade-specific, then that wasn't clear in the original post.

[Coryn]

I know it's really easy for me to come with problems and no answers so sorry for that, it's definitely not my intention to bash anyone at all.
I also didn't know about the AV 2010s list so I see there is something being done about it.

It really struck me this year while doing the documentary challenge that all docs except for 3 weren't on any list on Netflix. I know Netflix isn't catered for ICM but since I am sometimes stuck with watching Netflix it was kind of a bummer I couldn't participate the way I wanted to.

There is definitely some lag when it comes to recent movies and it might just bother me more than others so I guess I'll have to live with it.

[Fergenaprido]

No worries Coryn, I didn't think you were bashing anyone, just complaining

As for Netflix and documentaries, maybe it's a country restriction, or you've already seen a lot of docs? For me (in Canada), just a quick search found these official docs on Netflix: 13th, The Battle of Midway, Senna, and LA 92. It's not a lot, though, I agree. I find Mubi and Kanopy to be a much better resource for documentaries, if you can get access to those (Mubi is paid, Kanopy is free with a library card if your library participates in it).

[Onderhond]

I don't see your point. I never claimed it was filled with unique officials, but simply reminding Coryn that a 2010s-specific list was recently adopted (and I forgot about the LatAm 2010s list that kongs mentioned), in case he wasn't aware/didn't remember. If asking for "some lists adopted for 2010s movies" meant simply getting 2010s movies onto various lists that aren't decade-specific, then that wasn't clear in the original post.

Most people complaining about the underrepresentation of 21st century/contemporary cinema on ICM are looking for more films to explore, not the same old films with a higher official #. I don't think that needs explicit mentioning to be understood.

I'm sure that A.V. 2010s list has some broader weight and works well as an entry list for classics fans who are looking for movies from the 2010s, but it does absolutely zip for the representation of 2010s films on ICM, nor is it in any way helpful for people with an active interest in contemporary cinema.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

The problem is that the complaint is phrased as: "underrepresentation of 21st century/contemporary cinema" when there are 1608 (9.9%) official checks from the 2010s and 3828 (23.6%) from the 2000s+2010s out of 16246 official checks.
Perhaps the representation is lacking in some areas or tastes, but it's not a lack of films from this century overall that is the problem.

[Onderhond]

I don't think the phrasing is really a problem, when the problem itself is well enough understood.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

I understand it, not everyone who reads it does.

[St. Gloede]

I don't understand it.

I mean, I can guess that we are talking about a want/need to cover different movements/types of cinema that have not yet been covered (say the Galician arthouse scene that Beavis tipped me on) but if the 2010s have 10% of official checks this decade is overrepresented, not underrepresented.

[St. Gloede]

Ok, reading back the conversation from Coryn, I think Fergen's answer did not miss the point at all. The question was related to underrepresentation, and he outlined several ways the decade was represented.

Given that the 2010s is in fact better represented that most decades, I would actually read the request the opposite way as Onderhond - i.e. more official checks for the same films - as this would be the one place films from the 2010s and the 21st century suffer from a discrepancy.