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New Official List Discussion

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brokenface
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#4921

Post by brokenface »

Torgo wrote: October 6th, 2020, 10:22 pm To be precise, the Action list actually belongs to the genre tab which I am always glad to lobby for .. :whistling:
:poshclap:
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#4922

Post by Torgo »

lol, didn't expect to start in the Top 100 for the action list with only 88/102 completion. As of now, you're even still in the Top 20 with 6 checks missing - and these are hugely popular.
Top actioners

Stats for the Pinoy list are, as expected, extreme. So far, only 5 users have seen more than 20 out of those 100. 9 checks are enough for the Top 30 and with only 4 (!) checks, you're still in the Top 100 for this obscure list.
See not 3, not 2, just one film from the Pinoy list and you're all settled for a rank in the Top 400 or at least 500 for a while. Crazy!
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#4923

Post by rnilsson19 »

Not enough Brocka in that Pinoy list tbh.
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#4924

Post by Torgo »

Can't tell if you're sarcastic or not, it has 10 Brockas all over the list, 3 of them in the top 10. Even if he's a very prominent figure in their cinema, you have to stay reasonable with the numbers ^^
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#4925

Post by Fergenaprido »

rnilsson19 wrote: October 7th, 2020, 7:37 pm Not enough Brocka in that Pinoy list tbh.
I can't tell if you're being facetious or serious.

There are 10 Brocka films in the Pinoy list.
Torgo wrote: October 7th, 2020, 7:03 pm Stats for the Pinoy list are, as expected, extreme. So far, only 5 users have seen more than 20 out of those 100. 9 checks are enough for the Top 30 and with only 4 (!) checks, you're still in the Top 100 for this obscure list.
See not 3, not 2, just one film from the Pinoy list and you're all settled for a rank in the Top 400 or at least 500 for a while. Crazy!
Yeah, I expect that a fair number of users will try to watch (at least) 1 film in order to get ranked on the list, so it'll probably cross 500 later this year or next.

The top user has only seen 38 films!
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#4926

Post by blueboybob »

i plan on "finishing" the Pinoy list this month for the forum challenge. By finish I mean all i can find
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#4927

Post by Fergenaprido »

blueboybob wrote: October 7th, 2020, 8:04 pm i plan on "finishing" the Pinoy list this month for the forum challenge. By finish I mean all i can find
Haha I meant to ask you about that in my last post. As soon as I saw you were #5 in the list I knew you'd run up the films as best as you could because of the SEA challenge this month. You'll be the first to a bronze, at least, and I think there are enough available with subtitles that you could reach silver.
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#4928

Post by sol »

I'm #389 on the Pinoy list with only 1 check. :whistling:

For a comparison, the one other list where I only have 1 check (Público) positions me at #1085. :unsure:
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#4929

Post by Torgo »

Lakigigar wrote: July 14th, 2020, 3:40 pm
From popular genre films to cult avant-garde works, this book is an essential guide to Japan's vibrant cinema culture. It collects two decades of the best of Mark Schilling's film writing for Variety, Japan Times, and other publications. The book offers an in-depth look at hundreds of landmark Japanese movies as well as undeservedly neglected ones. The essays and detailed analyses are interwoven with more than sixty interviews showcasing Japan's most talented directors and stars. This book enables students, teachers, and lovers of Japanese cinema to make new discoveries while learning more about their favorite films.

Mark Schilling set off for Japan in 1975 to immerse himself in the culture, learn the language, and haunt the theaters. He has been there ever since. In 1989 he became a regular film reviewer for The Japan Times, and has written on Japanese film for publications including Variety, Screen International, Premier, Newsweek, Wall Street Journal, Japan Quarterly, Winds, Cinemaya, and Kinema Jumpo.
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mark ... onderhond/

This is such a great list for Japan.
/bump

I don't see what's the problem with adopting this in the future. :folded:
It's a real book by someone who made a name of himself, not some random blog. And it would help us cover a shamefully neglected area for ICM.
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#4930

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

"All the films reviewed in Art, Cult and Commerce" is not a toplist.
Supposedly the book has "personal best lists of writer Mark Schilling" maybe those would be worth considering depending on what they cover and how.
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#4931

Post by Onderhond »

366 Certified Weird isn't a toplist either. Neither is Tom Vick's lets-include-entire-oeuvres list. Vogel's list doesn't seem to be a toplist either. So many lists aren't toplists.

What it is, is a curated and relevant list around a single topic. One that's filling a huge gap on ICM.
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#4932

Post by Torgo »

I agree with Onderhond. 366 Weird even have weirder and/or better films as runners-up on their homepage.
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: October 13th, 2020, 8:51 pm "All the films reviewed in Art, Cult and Commerce" is not a toplist.
Supposedly the book has "personal best lists of writer Mark Schilling" maybe those would be worth considering depending on what they cover and how.
One could argue that way if you just go by that summary, I can see that. The book description seems way more deliberate, though:

"From popular genre films to cult avant-garde works, this book is an essential guide to Japan's vibrant cinema culture. It collects two decades of the best of Mark Schilling's film writing for Variety, Japan Times, and other publications. The book offers an in-depth look at hundreds of landmark Japanese movies as well as undeservedly neglected ones. The essays and detailed analyses are interwoven with more than sixty interviews showcasing Japan's most talented directors and stars. This book enables students, teachers, and lovers of Japanese cinema to make new discoveries while learning more about their favorite films."


This doesn't sound like "just any film Mark wrote about somewhere". And I think we could use it.
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#4933

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Onderhond wrote: October 13th, 2020, 8:57 pm 366 Certified Weird isn't a toplist either. Neither is Tom Vick's lets-include-entire-oeuvres list. Vogel's list doesn't seem to be a toplist either. So many lists aren't toplists.

What it is, is a curated and relevant list around a single topic. One that's filling a huge gap on ICM.
366 is a top list in some sense of the word, they watched movies and rejected quite a few of them for either not being good enough or not being weird enough. I'm not a bit fan of the Asian Field guide, there are a number of other lists that probably shouldn't be official either. Vogel's isn't a top list in the traditional sense, but it is a curated list of what he felt were important subversive films.

I agree curated is a better word than toplist. From that description I don't agree that it's a curated list in a meaningful sense. Maybe it is and the description is bad, though.
Torgo wrote: October 13th, 2020, 9:01 pm "From popular genre films to cult avant-garde works, this book is an essential guide to Japan's vibrant cinema culture. It collects two decades of the best of Mark Schilling's film writing for Variety, Japan Times, and other publications. The book offers an in-depth look at hundreds of landmark Japanese movies as well as undeservedly neglected ones. The essays and detailed analyses are interwoven with more than sixty interviews showcasing Japan's most talented directors and stars. This book enables students, teachers, and lovers of Japanese cinema to make new discoveries while learning more about their favorite films."
That's marketing copy. I'm sure Pauline Kaels 5000 film review book uses similar terms. I could similarly emphasize "the best of Mark Schilling's film writing" is not the best films Mark has written about or his favourite films or the interesting films he's found on a certain topic or genre, it puts the writing quality and the author as primary above the films.

If you all really think this is a curated book I'll consider looking into it further, though.
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#4934

Post by Lammetje »

blocho wrote: July 30th, 2020, 11:27 pm
Onderhond wrote: July 30th, 2020, 10:18 pm
Ebbywebby wrote: July 30th, 2020, 10:14 pm I wouldn't have guessed that 73% of the cinema's greatest romcoms were released post-1970s. But thank god that classics like "13 Going on 30," "Overboard" and "Trainwreck" are checks now. Ptooey on that list.
And 90% in America, the land of romance ...
Ondy, I can tell you're being sarcastic, but that's only because you don't understand how deeply and irresistibly romantic and comedic us Americans are. All we do is fall in love, break up, get back together, then break up, then get back together again and again and again. And we do it while exhibiting the most humorous aspects of mating behavior and human sociability. This is literally the full-time job of most people in this country. Just today, I fell into and out of love with three people while shopping for groceries.
:D (u) :D (l) :D
I only saw this post just now. Great stuff, B! :worship:
sol wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:54 am I'm #389 on the Pinoy list with only 1 check. :whistling:

For a comparison, the one other list where I only have 1 check (Público) positions me at #1085. :unsure:
I have also one check on the Pinoy list (currently #393). My only check on the FESPACO list even puts me in the top 350, which is my highest ranking on any official list. :/
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#4935

Post by sol »

Lammetje wrote: October 13th, 2020, 11:06 pm
sol wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:54 am I'm #389 on the Pinoy list with only 1 check. :whistling:

For a comparison, the one other list where I only have 1 check (Público) positions me at #1085. :unsure:
I have also one check on the Pinoy list (currently #393). My only check on the FESPACO list even puts me in the top 350, which is my highest ranking on any official list. :/
Oh, c'mon, the FESPACO list is the easiest list to get into the Top 100 Users for. :whistling: With only 6 checks (25% complete), I am ranked #97.

But yeah, some of the FESPACO titles are uncommon. It was one of only seven lists that I had zero checks on when I transitioned from IMDb to iCM.
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#4936

Post by Ebbywebby »

I'm confused about this distinction being drawn about "toplists"...is the point about the difference between a "100 Movies About Dogs" list and a "Top 100 Movies About Dogs" list?
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#4937

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Ebbywebby wrote: October 14th, 2020, 9:36 pm I'm confused about this distinction being drawn about "toplists"...is the point about the difference between a "100 Movies About Dogs" list and a "Top 100 Movies About Dogs" list?
Yes. The issue is more complex than that; as I conceded later not all lists are, nor necessarily need to be, top lists. Curation is a better catchall; that the curation should be on some meaningful criteria, of which "best" is the most common.
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#4938

Post by Onderhond »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: October 13th, 2020, 9:11 pm If you all really think this is a curated book I'll consider looking into it further, though.
Rather than speculate, I just asked the man :)
The question I asked myself in sorting them was "Is this something readers will want to know about? So that meant including most reviews of films by "name" directors (Miike, Koreeda, etc.) and films by not-so-well-known directors that gained some sort of notice here or abroad, such as a big festival prize or mention on my annual Best 10 list. Finally, I added films that, though they may not have been great cinema, were representative of a genre or trend or were just huge at the box office, such as "The Eternal Zero." This was not done methodically; I simply looked at what I had for a given year and made a short list. Then I made further trims when the book was laid out and I was told I had to cut pages. So some film that should have been included, according to the above criteria, were not because of space and time limitations. Thus only two films from 2019. I've been asked why the book contains so many four-and five-star reviews. My answer was that these films deserved inclusion by reason of excellence and given that I could choose only around 15 films for any single year, a lot of the less-important/worthy films, with bad or mediocre star ratings, got the chop.
To me that sounds the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but I'll let you decide.
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#4939

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Onderhond wrote: October 15th, 2020, 8:01 am
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: October 13th, 2020, 9:11 pm If you all really think this is a curated book I'll consider looking into it further, though.
Rather than speculate, I just asked the man :)
The question I asked myself in sorting them was "Is this something readers will want to know about? So that meant including most reviews of films by "name" directors (Miike, Koreeda, etc.) and films by not-so-well-known directors that gained some sort of notice here or abroad, such as a big festival prize or mention on my annual Best 10 list. Finally, I added films that, though they may not have been great cinema, were representative of a genre or trend or were just huge at the box office, such as "The Eternal Zero." This was not done methodically; I simply looked at what I had for a given year and made a short list. Then I made further trims when the book was laid out and I was told I had to cut pages. So some film that should have been included, according to the above criteria, were not because of space and time limitations. Thus only two films from 2019. I've been asked why the book contains so many four-and five-star reviews. My answer was that these films deserved inclusion by reason of excellence and given that I could choose only around 15 films for any single year, a lot of the less-important/worthy films, with bad or mediocre star ratings, got the chop.
To me that sounds the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but I'll let you decide.
Thanks, Onderhond for doing this. :thumbsup:
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#4940

Post by Onderhond »

Well, we can bitch and moan about social media all we want, but there are also some very nice sides to it. :)
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#4941

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Onderhond wrote: October 15th, 2020, 8:29 am Well, we can bitch and moan about social media all we want, but there are also some very nice sides to it. :)
Yeah, and nice he gave such an extensive answer.
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#4942

Post by Onderhond »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: October 15th, 2020, 9:38 am
Onderhond wrote: October 15th, 2020, 8:29 am Well, we can bitch and moan about social media all we want, but there are also some very nice sides to it. :)
Yeah, and nice he gave such an extensive answer.
Definitely. It depends on people's personality of course, but the one's I've contacted/befriended are usually very open and willing to talk about film. It's not a very glitzy/ego-driven world either I think.

For what it's worth, he loves cycling so I'm always seeing nice vistas of Japan whenever he's going on bike rides :D
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#4943

Post by flavo5000 »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: October 15th, 2020, 8:22 am
Onderhond wrote: October 15th, 2020, 8:01 am
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: October 13th, 2020, 9:11 pm If you all really think this is a curated book I'll consider looking into it further, though.
Rather than speculate, I just asked the man :)
The question I asked myself in sorting them was "Is this something readers will want to know about? So that meant including most reviews of films by "name" directors (Miike, Koreeda, etc.) and films by not-so-well-known directors that gained some sort of notice here or abroad, such as a big festival prize or mention on my annual Best 10 list. Finally, I added films that, though they may not have been great cinema, were representative of a genre or trend or were just huge at the box office, such as "The Eternal Zero." This was not done methodically; I simply looked at what I had for a given year and made a short list. Then I made further trims when the book was laid out and I was told I had to cut pages. So some film that should have been included, according to the above criteria, were not because of space and time limitations. Thus only two films from 2019. I've been asked why the book contains so many four-and five-star reviews. My answer was that these films deserved inclusion by reason of excellence and given that I could choose only around 15 films for any single year, a lot of the less-important/worthy films, with bad or mediocre star ratings, got the chop.
To me that sounds the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but I'll let you decide.
Thanks, Onderhond for doing this. :thumbsup:
At the very least, it certainly sounds like there's a certainly a curation aspect to it if he is intentionally choose specifically what films to represent a given director or genre as well as including many films he thought to be great films. It definitely doesn't sound like the massive critic tomes of 3000+ reviews that's just a brief review of everything they saw in a given decade (the aforemention Paul Kael, Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide, Roger Ebert's Movie Yearbook, etc.). And looking at the list of films itself, I think it is pretty much exactly what we've been looking for as a supplement to Tom Vick's list (which I would argue seems to be less curated than this one). The only thing I would add is that I have to wonder if Mark Schilling would be willing to provide us with the films he wanted to include in the book but was forced to exclude due to space limitations.
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#4944

Post by Onderhond »

Well, it's definitely not a list of films with a capsule review per film, they are all full-blown reviews. I just asked him whether he still had his ideal list lying around, sadly (and as expected, as he already mentioned he wasn't super methodical) that one's gone forever.

Not sure if it's the supplement for Vick's list, but it could surely be one of several supplements (as Vick covers more than just Japan). All I can say is that content-wise, it's a list that will be very hard to match.
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#4945

Post by flavo5000 »

Onderhond wrote: October 15th, 2020, 1:59 pm Well, it's definitely not a list of films with a capsule review per film, they are all full-blown reviews. I just asked him whether he still had his ideal list lying around, sadly (and as expected, as he already mentioned he wasn't super methodical) that one's gone forever.

Not sure if it's the supplement for Vick's list, but it could surely be one of several supplements (as Vick covers more than just Japan). All I can say is that content-wise, it's a list that will be very hard to match.
Right, I meant as a supplement to the Japanese section specifically to cover from 2000+.
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#4946

Post by Onderhond »

flavo5000 wrote: October 15th, 2020, 2:06 pm Right, I meant as a supplement to the Japanese section specifically to cover from 2000+.
Then yeah, definitely. Wouldn't even know where to begin looking for China and Taiwan though.
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#4947

Post by Torgo »

flavo5000 wrote: October 15th, 2020, 1:17 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: October 15th, 2020, 8:22 am
Onderhond wrote: October 15th, 2020, 8:01 am
Rather than speculate, I just asked the man :)



To me that sounds the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but I'll let you decide.
Thanks, Onderhond for doing this. :thumbsup:
At the very least, it certainly sounds like there's a certainly a curation aspect to it if he is intentionally choose specifically what films to represent a given director or genre as well as including many films he thought to be great films. It definitely doesn't sound like the massive critic tomes of 3000+ reviews that's just a brief review of everything they saw in a given decade (the aforemention Paul Kael, Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide, Roger Ebert's Movie Yearbook, etc.). And looking at the list of films itself, I think it is pretty much exactly what we've been looking for as a supplement to Tom Vick's list (which I would argue seems to be less curated than this one). The only thing I would add is that I have to wonder if Mark Schilling would be willing to provide us with the films he wanted to include in the book but was forced to exclude due to space limitations.
:hug:

Go get 'em, boys!
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#4948

Post by Torgo »

Gershwin wrote: January 27th, 2016, 12:57 am Thanks. I see both are mentioned on the same page 65, so yeah, I guess we can almost be sure it's just a reference ("based on the then famous 1939 musical, ...", or something like that). I wonder how many films got into this list that way.

Strange list anyhow. But I guess you mods decided to adopt it because it's more or less poll-based/top ten based?
re: Tanuki goten (1939)
Again: Are you guys sure we should include this film as an official check on the base of that? :blink:
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#4949

Post by AdamH »

Torgo wrote: October 17th, 2020, 9:24 pm
Gershwin wrote: January 27th, 2016, 12:57 am Thanks. I see both are mentioned on the same page 65, so yeah, I guess we can almost be sure it's just a reference ("based on the then famous 1939 musical, ...", or something like that). I wonder how many films got into this list that way.

Strange list anyhow. But I guess you mods decided to adopt it because it's more or less poll-based/top ten based?
re: Tanuki goten (1939)
Again: Are you guys sure we should include this film as an official check on the base of that? :blink:
Basic Instinct 2 also makes the list because of this (comment by Nathan from here)
RE: Basic Instinct 2: In a list titled "Anger in 20 Films" it says, "The first Basic Instinct, masturbation fodder masquerading as an upscale thriller was bad enough. That Hollywood is so out of ideas that has now made a follow up beggars belief." So, yeah, they didn't think it was all that great either.
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#4950

Post by pitchorneirda »

Panunzio wrote: June 15th, 2020, 10:42 pm
Many of the World Cinema Project films are already getting released as part of the Criterion collection. Either as part of a box set, or a standalone film. In fact, I think they just announced the release of Volume 3 today!
Yet 8 movies that are in brokenface's World Cinema Project list aren't even official at all.
I think World Cinema Project should be official too. Maybe they could be withdrawn from the Criterion Collection list if you don't want the overlap
"Art is like a fire, it is born from the very thing it burns" - Jean-Luc Godard
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#4951

Post by Panunzio »

pitchorneirda wrote: October 30th, 2020, 4:33 pm
Panunzio wrote: June 15th, 2020, 10:42 pm
Many of the World Cinema Project films are already getting released as part of the Criterion collection. Either as part of a box set, or a standalone film. In fact, I think they just announced the release of Volume 3 today!
Yet 8 movies that are in brokenface's World Cinema Project list aren't even official at all.
I think World Cinema Project should be official too. Maybe they could be withdrawn from the Criterion Collection list if you don't want the overlap
I really don't see why overlap is a bad thing. They are both quality collections, and it will help raise the profile of the films.
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#4952

Post by mjf314 »

pitchorneirda wrote: October 30th, 2020, 4:33 pm I think World Cinema Project should be official too. Maybe they could be withdrawn from the Criterion Collection list if you don't want the overlap
I don't know if World Cinema Project should be official, but the films should not be removed from the Criterion list.
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#4953

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Most of those unofficial WCP films don't have available completed restorations yet, so encouraging people to seek them out in inferior versions seems contrary to the goal.
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#4954

Post by Ebbywebby »

Surprisingly, TCM showed "Dos Monjes" a day ago.
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#4955

Post by pitchorneirda »

And the restored version of "Shatranje bad" was shown at the BFI London Film Festival a few weeks ago
"Art is like a fire, it is born from the very thing it burns" - Jean-Luc Godard
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Wonderful Rainbow
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#4956

Post by Wonderful Rainbow »

Has any of the source list creators ever been notified when the lists have been adopted? I don't think The New York times would care much, but I can imagine someone like an employee of Muzeum Kinematografii w Łodzi sharing the news on their social media etc. Might attract some new users as well.
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PeacefulAnarchy
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#4957

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

I don't think we've ever formally notified anyone. Some sources are involved/aware like TSPDT and SWDB but otherwise, no.
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Torgo
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#4958

Post by Torgo »

Wonderful Rainbow wrote: November 6th, 2020, 8:12 pm Has any of the source list creators ever been notified when the lists have been adopted? I don't think The New York times would care much, but I can imagine someone like an employee of Muzeum Kinematografii w Łodzi sharing the news on their social media etc. Might attract some new users as well.
It's actually a cool idea for the smaller lists :)
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weirdboy
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#4959

Post by weirdboy »

I do not know if this is the right place for this question, but it is certainly the right month.

Do we really need both TSPDT 100 Noirs and TSPDT 1000 Noirs as official lists? One list is literally a subset of the other.
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PeacefulAnarchy
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#4960

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

The reasoning was that a) the 100 noir list is separately noted in the source and b) it's a much more manageable list as an intro to the genre. The giant list is not in order so it's just a dump of hundreds of films to the uninitiated, while the short list highlights the most important films, and a lot of the best ones.
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