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New Official List Discussion

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Fergenaprido
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Re: New Official List Discussion

#4721

Post by Fergenaprido » July 3rd, 2020, 6:24 pm

Thanks for adding them Lonewolf.

My understanding was that the second list was the runners up with "between 4 to 6 votes". And in this list, the ties are sorted chronologically instead of alphabetically, so I guess 1-11 had 6 votes each, and 12-44 had 5 votes each. I don't know why they restarted the numbering, though. And strangely, it seems they ranked the entire Top 39 chronologically instead of by points, so I guess anything that was over the threshold of votes was treated equally. Over 160 films were mentioned. Moretti's two films (La stanza del figlio and Il camaino) had 24 votes between them, but it doesn't indicate how much each on got individually.

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#4722

Post by St. Gloede » July 5th, 2020, 2:15 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 5:01 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 1:21 pm
Not sure it should be an official list, in fact I can't read it (translation did not work), but great to see a seemingly strong list of Italian films from the last decade:

https://ilsorpassocinema.com/2020/02/2 ... 2010-2019/
I added the list to iCM :)
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/il+s ... ewolf2003/

They also have a list for the previous decade which I also added to iCM. Because I don't speak Italian, I didn't understand what the list actually should be and what the difference between the different group is. Google translation didn't made it completely clear to me either. I only added the first group. Maybe someone who speaks Italian understands.

They also have list for other decades, but didn't add those to iCM (yet)
The 1910s-20s: https://ilsorpassocinema.com/2018/11/06 ... xx-secolo/
The 1930s: https://ilsorpassocinema.com/2019/05/09 ... i-anni-30/
The 1940s: https://ilsorpassocinema.com/2019/12/10 ... orealismo/
Fantastic work Lonewolf!

If they have done all, or end up doing all, with 50 Italian critics (or similar) we could combine them into a masterlist (which would possible be worthy of official status).

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#4723

Post by Lakigigar » July 13th, 2020, 6:53 pm

joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:22 am
Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:11 am
joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:51 am
If you don't like the list, move on.
Sure, but the underlying critique of some of us is ... where to? The 180 other cinephile-friendly lists?
And again...... suggest some good lists that have a different scope than the regular lists on iCM. We shouldn't be discussing the removal of lists because some people don't agree with them being official. We should be discussing lists that fill gaps on iCM. You always say there are significant gaps and most of the lists rehash the same kind of movies over and over again (and partly I agree with you), but you never offer a solution.
Asia in particulary is lacking.

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#4724

Post by Fergenaprido » July 13th, 2020, 8:26 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 6:53 pm
joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:22 am
Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:11 am

Sure, but the underlying critique of some of us is ... where to? The 180 other cinephile-friendly lists?
And again...... suggest some good lists that have a different scope than the regular lists on iCM. We shouldn't be discussing the removal of lists because some people don't agree with them being official. We should be discussing lists that fill gaps on iCM. You always say there are significant gaps and most of the lists rehash the same kind of movies over and over again (and partly I agree with you), but you never offer a solution.
Asia in particulary is lacking.
Could you elaborate, or point us in the direction of some lists you think we should consider?

I agree that parts of Asia are direly lacking official representation on icm, but I think others are adequately covered, at least for the time being. I think the biggest problem has been finding new suitable lists.

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#4725

Post by Onderhond » July 13th, 2020, 8:40 pm

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mark ... onderhond/

71% is unofficial, just 20/236 on 3+ lists, only have 1 dislike out of 192 films.
Contemporary Asia is a wasteland on ICM.

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#4726

Post by Fergenaprido » July 13th, 2020, 8:59 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:40 pm
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mark ... onderhond/

71% is unofficial, just 20/236 on 3+ lists, only have 1 dislike out of 192 films.
Contemporary Asia is a wasteland on ICM.
I think that's a great list for discovering contemporary Japanese cinema, and I already had it watchlisted for myself, but I don't think it merits adoption: It's from a single country over a limited time period (20 years), and it's "a collection of reviews, interviews and personal best lists" as opposed to unified Best Of list.

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#4727

Post by Onderhond » July 13th, 2020, 9:19 pm

I know the criteria and why this list is seen as problematic, it's also a huge blind spot that remains mostly ignored by ICM. And will be with the set criteria.

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#4728

Post by Lakigigar » July 13th, 2020, 9:36 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:59 pm
Onderhond wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:40 pm
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mark ... onderhond/

71% is unofficial, just 20/236 on 3+ lists, only have 1 dislike out of 192 films.
Contemporary Asia is a wasteland on ICM.
I think that's a great list for discovering contemporary Japanese cinema, and I already had it watchlisted for myself, but I don't think it merits adoption: It's from a single country over a limited time period (20 years), and it's "a collection of reviews, interviews and personal best lists" as opposed to unified Best Of list.
It's from one of the biggest film countries in the world. We need more Asian and contemporary lists. We have a great latin american decade list, why not for Japan

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#4729

Post by Fergenaprido » July 13th, 2020, 10:37 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 9:36 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:59 pm
Onderhond wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:40 pm
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mark ... onderhond/

71% is unofficial, just 20/236 on 3+ lists, only have 1 dislike out of 192 films.
Contemporary Asia is a wasteland on ICM.
I think that's a great list for discovering contemporary Japanese cinema, and I already had it watchlisted for myself, but I don't think it merits adoption: It's from a single country over a limited time period (20 years), and it's "a collection of reviews, interviews and personal best lists" as opposed to unified Best Of list.
It's from one of the biggest film countries in the world. We need more Asian and contemporary lists. We have a great latin american decade list, why not for Japan
The Latin decade lists operate in a continuum with the original Latin American list, as that only went up to 1999; so, in a sense, it's one megalist covering an entire region (not a single country) over all time. Japan already has an all-time official list plus a huge section of the official Asian Field Guide list. Additionally, the Latin decade lists are polls conducted by reputable source, as opposed to an assortment of films mentioned by a single critic. For us, the source of the list matters too, not just the contents of the list.

Plus, looking only at lists from the "country" tab (so excluding the anime and spaghetti western lists, for example), it's currently the third most-represented country on icm (after Italy and Hong Kong; fourth if you include all of the AFI lists), with over 300 films listed (including double countings, i.e. if it appears on the Kinema Junpo list and the Asian list, it's counted twice). I'm not against adopting another Japan-only list, but I think there are other countries, including others in Asia, that deserve to be highlighted before we adopt something else from Japan. And with the exception of the Latin lists above, I'm generally not in favour of lists that are doubly restricted by both country and year(s).

In general, I agree that contemporary cinema from the last decade or two is underrepresented in officialness on icm (aside from the BO lists), but I think that's to be expected as there is always a lag in lists being published. As older lists get updated, and new quality lists get published, we'll have more options to choose from to promote lists to official status. And while us moderators do keep an eye out for and actively search for new potential lists, we'd love to have input from the community here to help bring to our attention lists we may have missed.

Personally, I've been looking for and would love to shine the light on some great lists for countries from Central Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Caucasus (for Asian countries).

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#4730

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 10:37 pm
Lakigigar wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 9:36 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:59 pm

I think that's a great list for discovering contemporary Japanese cinema, and I already had it watchlisted for myself, but I don't think it merits adoption: It's from a single country over a limited time period (20 years), and it's "a collection of reviews, interviews and personal best lists" as opposed to unified Best Of list.
It's from one of the biggest film countries in the world. We need more Asian and contemporary lists. We have a great latin american decade list, why not for Japan
The Latin decade lists operate in a continuum with the original Latin American list, as that only went up to 1999; so, in a sense, it's one megalist covering an entire region (not a single country) over all time. Japan already has an all-time official list plus a huge section of the official Asian Field Guide list. Additionally, the Latin decade lists are polls conducted by reputable source, as opposed to an assortment of films mentioned by a single critic. For us, the source of the list matters too, not just the contents of the list.

Plus, looking only at lists from the "country" tab (so excluding the anime and spaghetti western lists, for example), it's currently the third most-represented country on icm (after Italy and Hong Kong; fourth if you include all of the AFI lists), with over 300 films listed (including double countings, i.e. if it appears on the Kinema Junpo list and the Asian list, it's counted twice). I'm not against adopting another Japan-only list, but I think there are other countries, including others in Asia, that deserve to be highlighted before we adopt something else from Japan. And with the exception of the Latin lists above, I'm generally not in favour of lists that are doubly restricted by both country and year(s).

In general, I agree that contemporary cinema from the last decade or two is underrepresented in officialness on icm (aside from the BO lists), but I think that's to be expected as there is always a lag in lists being published. As older lists get updated, and new quality lists get published, we'll have more options to choose from to promote lists to official status. And while us moderators do keep an eye out for and actively search for new potential lists, we'd love to have input from the community here to help bring to our attention lists we may have missed.
Japan made more movies than Latin America during that time. Since 2000, 354 movies became official. In Japan only 19 + 54 = 71, none of them are newer than 2008, meaning zero movies from both lists since 2010. Some countries have more lists like Korea with 2, though both are dated as well. You're failing to make your point

Lots of directors and critics have their own official list, like Ebert. Whats their added value? If we removed it, we only lose 9 official movies.
Personally, I've been looking for and would love to shine the light on some great lists for countries from Central Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Caucasus (for Asian countries).
Sorry, but who cares about the Caucasus, if you compare them to East Asia. I'm sure 500 more Japanese and Chinese movies deserve to become official before 5 Caucasian ones. One day, we can include them, but not before Asia (and Europe] gets the Latin America treatment.

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#4731

Post by WalterNeff » July 14th, 2020, 1:24 am

You guys are missing the real gap - Pre-Code.

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#4732

Post by xianjiro » July 14th, 2020, 2:53 am

You sure about that? We don't have an exhaustive list of actualities yet either. :P

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

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#4733

Post by Fergenaprido » July 14th, 2020, 10:24 am

Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am
Japan made more movies than Latin America during that time. Since 2000, 354 movies became official. In Japan only 19 + 54 = 71, none of them are newer than 2008, meaning zero movies from both lists since 2010. Some countries have more lists like Korea with 2, though both are dated as well. You're failing to make your point
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, especially the 354. Yes, there are no official films on Japanese country lists from the 2010s, but there are a number on other official lists. Plus, this is not an issue unique to Japan, and I don't think the remedy is adopting decade lists for each country or region. And while Korea does indeed have two lists, they're both shorter than the single Japanese list (100+100 vs 199), which is why I was looking at the number of films as opposed to the number of lists. That was my point.
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am
Lots of directors and critics have their own official list, like Ebert. Whats their added value? If we removed it, we only lose 9 official movies.
I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Are you comparing Ebert's list to the one from Cousins?
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am
Sorry, but who cares about the Caucasus, if you compare them to East Asia. I'm sure 500 more Japanese and Chinese movies deserve to become official before 5 Caucasian ones. One day, we can include them, but not before Asia (and Europe] gets the Latin America treatment.
I'm not trying to compare them; you mentioned that you thought Asian cinema deserved more recognition, and I was agreeing with you, and sharing my own personal thoughts on parts of the continent that I felt were underlooked. You don't have to share my enthusiasm about them. :)

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#4734

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 10:45 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:24 am
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am
Japan made more movies than Latin America during that time. Since 2000, 354 movies became official. In Japan only 19 + 54 = 71, none of them are newer than 2008, meaning zero movies from both lists since 2010. Some countries have more lists like Korea with 2, though both are dated as well. You're failing to make your point
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, especially the 354. Yes, there are no official films on Japanese country lists from the 2010s, but there are a number on other official lists. Plus, this is not an issue unique to Japan, and I don't think the remedy is adopting decade lists for each country or region. And while Korea does indeed have two lists, they're both shorter than the single Japanese list (100+100 vs 199), which is why I was looking at the number of films as opposed to the number of lists. That was my point.
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am
Lots of directors and critics have their own official list, like Ebert. Whats their added value? If we removed it, we only lose 9 official movies.
I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Are you comparing Ebert's list to the one from Cousins?
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am
Sorry, but who cares about the Caucasus, if you compare them to East Asia. I'm sure 500 more Japanese and Chinese movies deserve to become official before 5 Caucasian ones. One day, we can include them, but not before Asia (and Europe] gets the Latin America treatment.
I'm not trying to compare them; you mentioned that you thought Asian cinema deserved more recognition, and I was agreeing with you, and sharing my own personal thoughts on parts of the continent that I felt were underlooked. You don't have to share my enthusiasm about them. :)
I'm on my other pc so i can make a longer post. With my older pc, i have to copy / paste characters which is annoying. (why i wasn't able to finish fok! top 250 also), but well.

The 354 films is the total for the Cinema Tropical lists from the two decade lists. Especially the second one added a bunch of films (250 ones), which is good. I love that list. It's a great list. It's why I say other nations / regions deserve to be treated like Latin American is done. There are few gaps in Latin America, aside of maybe a few country lists, but I think they're well covered already thanks to the decade Latin America lists (and the older Cien anos sin soledad (which only runs until 2000) list). Latin America is currently well covered, and done in an excellent way.

Japan however made more movies throughout the same period and the Kinema Jumpo (which is more focused on classic Japanese cinema) and Tom Vick's Asian Cinema list only have 71 movies from 2000 to 2008. Both lists are dated as well. I wouldn't remove them. What helps in Korea favour is that their cinema really started to flourish in the 21st century, which is why a large amount of films of the beginning of 21st century is covered in their lists, sometimes twice. But both lists are also dated. It's annoying to me to see that a lot of country lists are dated, but that's not to blame for ICM.

The critics lists are okay, i don't use them but they barely add new official films and more importantly are composed by one single person, most likely famous, so why is it impossible to add a list by someone a little bit less famous that covers an entire period / country / region that would fill a gap. It's not perfect, but what i'm saying is that it's been done in the past.

And I'm not against adding a Caucasus list for example. In fact, it would be great, even though i would have zero checks and not work on it (yet), but i think there are bigger gaps left yet to fill, especially contemporary cinema and East Asian cinema.

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#4735

Post by Fergenaprido » July 14th, 2020, 11:00 am

Okay, thanks for clarifying :)

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#4736

Post by dirty_score » July 14th, 2020, 11:04 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:26 pm
Could you elaborate, or point us in the direction of some lists you think we should consider?

I agree that parts of Asia are direly lacking official representation on icm, but I think others are adequately covered, at least for the time being. I think the biggest problem has been finding new suitable lists.
Here's the solution: NATIONAL FILM AWARDS.

East:
South Korea: Blue Dragon Film Awards (ICM); Grand Bell Awards (Wikipedia)
Japan: Japan Academy Prize Picture of the Year (ICM, missing last year winner)
Hong Kong/China: Hong Kong Film Awards (ICM); Golden Horse Award for Best Feature (ICM, needs to be updated in last two years)

South:
Bangladesh: Bangladesh National Film Award (Wikipedia)

Southeast:
Indonesia: Citra Award for Best Film (Wikipedia)
Philippines: FAMAS Award For Best Picture (ICM); Gawad Urian Best Film Award (ICM); Metro Manila Film Festival Award (Wikipedia)

West:
Israel: Ophir Award Best Film (ICM, missing last year winner) (this should have been the official one not the other)
Turkey: Antalya Film Festival (ICM, needs to be updated in the last 3 years)

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#4737

Post by St. Gloede » July 14th, 2020, 11:05 am

Lakigigar wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 9:36 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:59 pm
Onderhond wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 8:40 pm
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mark ... onderhond/

71% is unofficial, just 20/236 on 3+ lists, only have 1 dislike out of 192 films.
Contemporary Asia is a wasteland on ICM.
I think that's a great list for discovering contemporary Japanese cinema, and I already had it watchlisted for myself, but I don't think it merits adoption: It's from a single country over a limited time period (20 years), and it's "a collection of reviews, interviews and personal best lists" as opposed to unified Best Of list.
It's from one of the biggest film countries in the world. We need more Asian and contemporary lists. We have a great latin american decade list, why not for Japan
This list has come up many time before, but Kinema Junpo's annual Top 10s would fix the highlighted issue of missing new Japanese films: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/kine ... 0s/mjf314/

As Cahier's top 10s are already adopted it does have presedence (granted, Cahier's list is of all films).

The list is often added for the ICM votes, so if you gather enough support/votes for it next time (if there is a next time) it has a shot.

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#4738

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 11:30 am

https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/new ... every-year

This is a good relatively new list as well (BFI - but made 8 days ago from several critics, one movie a year).

http://www.modernkoreancinema.com/2019/ ... 2010s.html

A good Korea decade list that would cover the decade.

I'm currently in the process of adding both lists to ICM.

Don't forget that Asia is less discovered than Europe and NA in general, and is often ignored, except for the breakthroughs in literally all lists, so while a list of 850 movies might be too large, it surely wouldn't hurt as compensation for it's lack of representation in other lists, while Asia has undeniably great cinema (not only Japan), so i'm strongly in favour of adding that Kinema Jumpo decade list to the official lists. Japan is traditionally next to UK/USA and maybe France/Italy the most known classic nation, and in contemporary cinema the third greatest producer after UK/USA and maybe fourth if we count Europe as one.

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#4739

Post by Chilton » July 14th, 2020, 11:53 am

Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 11:30 am
https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/new ... every-year

This is a good relatively new list as well (BFI - but made 8 days ago from several critics, one movie a year).

http://www.modernkoreancinema.com/2019/ ... 2010s.html

A good Korea decade list that would cover the decade.

I'm currently in the process of adding both lists to ICM.
Both lists should already be on ICM.

As for awards, there's also the Asian Film Awards list (relatively young though, and this one is missing the last few winners.)

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#4740

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 11:58 am

The latter list (Korea one) would be a super addition. 34 unofficial films, and with great status. Would fill the gap. The list can Always be deleted when the Korean films get an update, but we can also consider to remove one of the Korea lists in exchange of the decade one, because we have two Korean lists covering the same period, as opposed to one list that fills a gap.

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mode ... plists&asc

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#4741

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 12:06 pm

https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/new ... -see-by-15

And BFI updated their 50 films to see by the age of 15 list, which was proposed as well and ended up very high in the much demanded lists. I don't think it would add a lot of official movies, although it would add I Wish / Kiseki from Hirokazu Koreeda. It is a solid list.

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#4742

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 12:10 pm

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/movi ... hn+milton/

And what about making the MM top 1000 official. It's focused towards Asian and contemporary cinema and is composed by more than 50 film fanatics. These would all become official

Reconstruction 2003
Any Way the Wind Blows 2003
Perfume: The Story of a Murderer 2006
Avalon 2001
Cashback 2006
Valhalla Rising 2009
Lost River 2014
Wind River 2017
Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno 2017
Hardcore Henry 2015
Knight of Cups 2015
Song to Song 2017
Tokyo.Sora 2002
The Butterfly Effect 2004
Malgré la nuit 2015
Alléluia 2014
Revenge 2017
Suspiria 2018
Ex Drummer 2007
The Place Beyond the Pines 2012
Petaru dansu 2013
Changeling 2008
Demolition 2015
Paris est à nous 2019
Nocturnal Animals 2016
Un amour à taire 2005
Man on Fire 2004
Lucky Number Slevin 2006
Container 2006
La tortue rouge 2016
Like Me 2017
The Killing of a Sacred Deer 2017
Shiki-Jitsu 2000
Angel-A 2005
Les amours imaginaires 2010
Den skyldige 2018
The Guest 2014
Ghostland 2018
Contracorriente 2009
Lucía y el sexo 2001
Cloud Atlas 2012
Priest 1994
Beautiful Boy 2018
Source Code 2011
Another Earth 2011
The Normal Heart 2014
Hwal 2005
Crimson Peak 2015
Kôfuku no kane 2002
A Monster Calls 2016
Hoje Eu Quero Voltar Sozinho 2014
Captain Fantastic 2016
Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter 2013
Le passé 2013
Balada triste de trompeta 2010
Beast 2017
Holding the Man 2015
Yi sa bui lai 2006
Kûki ningyô 2009
Phone Booth 2002
Dogman 2018
Prometheus 2012
Xing kong 2011
Still Alice 2014
Allegro 2005
Elle s'appelait Sarah 2010
The Congress 2013
Never Let Me Go 2010
Love, Simon 2018
Anchiporuno 2016
The Illusionist 2006
The Book of Eli 2010
Freier Fall 2013
A Cure for Wellness 2016
46-okunen no koi 2006
Der Hauptmann 2017
The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas 2008
End of Watch 2012
Maurice 1987
Su-ki-da 2005
Noruwei no mori 2010
Mizu no onna 2002
Brødre 2004
Jeux d'enfants 2003
Luftslottet som sprängdes 2009
Ha-Buah 2006
Le cose che restano 2010
The Stoning of Soraya M. 2008
Crank 2006
The Bank Job 2008

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#4743

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 14th, 2020, 12:22 pm

The amount of movies that become official through adoption is not the leading reason for us to adopt, the subject it covers (if a subject isn't covered already enough this will automaticaly result in lot of new official movies) and the quality of the source are.
About the MM top 1000; I think there are enough of those user-based general lists on iCM now, so adopting that won't be priority in my personal opinion. If covering more contempary Asian cinema is the goal, I rather adopt a good list focused purely on that instead. And if we were to adopt such a general user list again, I think our own 1001 Favorite Movies list would be a better candidate.

Thanks for all suggestions, we will consider them. But they will have to stand our quality standards. I'm not totally sure that Modern Korea List does, but would have to look into it more.

We are also considering adopting more national awards lists.
Last edited by Lonewolf2003 on July 14th, 2020, 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#4744

Post by Tasselfoot » July 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm

If you were going to do a fan/forum top1000... why would you not use iCM forums?

Are there any plans to add the other 4 "101 before you die" genre lists? I've enjoyed getting plat on the war/gangster lists.

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#4745

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 14th, 2020, 12:29 pm

Tasselfoot wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm
If you were going to do a fan/forum top1000... why would you not use iCM forums?

Are there any plans to add the other 4 "101 before you die" genre lists? I've enjoyed getting plat on the war/gangster lists.
There are plans for adopting more genre lists. There is no plan to adopt all ""101 before you die"" lists by default. We will look per genre which list we consider best. That can be the 101 before you die, the BFI Guide list or some other source.

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#4746

Post by Fergenaprido » July 14th, 2020, 12:35 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:06 pm
https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/new ... -see-by-15

And BFI updated their 50 films to see by the age of 15 list, which was proposed as well and ended up very high in the much demanded lists. I don't think it would add a lot of official movies, although it would add I Wish / Kiseki from Hirokazu Koreeda. It is a solid list.
This is a great find Lakigigar! The original list is one I've been slowing working on for years (still 10 to see), and it is on icm: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/bfi+ ... ntramirez/ but that user hasn't been around for years. Do you want to add the updated list to icm?

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#4747

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 12:45 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:35 pm
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:06 pm
https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/new ... -see-by-15

And BFI updated their 50 films to see by the age of 15 list, which was proposed as well and ended up very high in the much demanded lists. I don't think it would add a lot of official movies, although it would add I Wish / Kiseki from Hirokazu Koreeda. It is a solid list.
This is a great find Lakigigar! The original list is one I've been slowing working on for years (still 10 to see), and it is on icm: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/bfi+ ... ntramirez/ but that user hasn't been around for years. Do you want to add the updated list to icm?
Sure, will add it, just give me some time (a day) or so.

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#4748

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 12:47 pm

Tasselfoot wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm
If you were going to do a fan/forum top1000... why would you not use iCM forums?

Are there any plans to add the other 4 "101 before you die" genre lists? I've enjoyed getting plat on the war/gangster lists.
ICM forum top 1001 movies would be great too, but wouldn't add new official lists and we already have DtC and ICM top 500 < 400. I even think to make our top unofficial film list official instead. But MM has a great userbase and a qualitative top list. It's the list i want most. It has more value than the fok! top 250 list and the filmtotaal top 100 because their userbases are smaller, although i really like fok! top 250 as well.

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#4749

Post by Onderhond » July 14th, 2020, 12:53 pm

Tasselfoot wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm
If you were going to do a fan/forum top1000... why would you not use iCM forums?
The main reason would be that we'd be running in circles. But considering the current adoption criteria, that's pretty much the case already.

If you want to look beyond current ICM coverage, you have to be willing to look beyond the current adoption criteria. As long as the focus remains on critics and/or institutions, it will pretty much result in plugging Cannes-bait holes (like the Kinema Junpo example), while ignoring so many other genres and types of films. I don't want to press too hard on this though, because I know the willingness to make big changes to ICM coverage simply isn't there (which is okay).

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#4750

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 14th, 2020, 1:08 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:53 pm
Tasselfoot wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm
If you were going to do a fan/forum top1000... why would you not use iCM forums?
The main reason would be that we'd be running in circles. But considering the current adoption criteria, that's pretty much the case already.

If you want to look beyond current ICM coverage, you have to be willing to look beyond the current adoption criteria. As long as the focus remains on critics and/or institutions, it will pretty much result in plugging Cannes-bait holes (like the Kinema Junpo example), while ignoring so many other genres and types of films. I don't want to press too hard on this though, because I know the willingness to make big changes to ICM coverage simply isn't there (which is okay).
I think there is enough ground still to cover without having to look beyond our current adoption criteria.

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#4751

Post by dirty_score » July 14th, 2020, 1:11 pm

I know that you guys don't like removals but would anyone be mad to see Leonard Maltin's 100 Must-See Films of the 20th Century go?

It's one of the older lists and frankly doesn't offer anything new besides adding to the counter of the usual suspects. 94 of the films are in +10 lists. It's not even a good starting list when you have the decade lists or 1001Movies lists (in which thoses films are) and I think if it was today, it wouldn't be considered to be official.

So maybe, a replacement list from the same author wouldn't be too controversial? Like Leonard Maltin's 151 Best Movies You've Never Seen?

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#4752

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 1:23 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 1:08 pm
Onderhond wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:53 pm
Tasselfoot wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm
If you were going to do a fan/forum top1000... why would you not use iCM forums?
The main reason would be that we'd be running in circles. But considering the current adoption criteria, that's pretty much the case already.

If you want to look beyond current ICM coverage, you have to be willing to look beyond the current adoption criteria. As long as the focus remains on critics and/or institutions, it will pretty much result in plugging Cannes-bait holes (like the Kinema Junpo example), while ignoring so many other genres and types of films. I don't want to press too hard on this though, because I know the willingness to make big changes to ICM coverage simply isn't there (which is okay).
I think there is enough ground still to cover without having to look beyond our current adoption criteria.
I think Onderhond is right

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#4753

Post by mjf314 » July 14th, 2020, 1:34 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:45 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:35 pm
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:06 pm
https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/new ... -see-by-15

And BFI updated their 50 films to see by the age of 15 list, which was proposed as well and ended up very high in the much demanded lists. I don't think it would add a lot of official movies, although it would add I Wish / Kiseki from Hirokazu Koreeda. It is a solid list.
This is a great find Lakigigar! The original list is one I've been slowing working on for years (still 10 to see), and it is on icm: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/bfi+ ... ntramirez/ but that user hasn't been around for years. Do you want to add the updated list to icm?
Sure, will add it, just give me some time (a day) or so.
Sorry, I was a little bit impatient (because I wanted to compare it to the other children lists), so I added it, but if you want to add it, I'll delete mine.

Here are the IMDb URLs:
SpoilerShow
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6584902/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2321405/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4698684/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5311514/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3065132/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1865505/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2258858/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1650453/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1847731/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0808417/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0432325/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2872750/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266543/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0286499/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252444/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318202/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0298228/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0245429/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0249462/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0129167/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0150662/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117509/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112445/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114709/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108071/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101414/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099487/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096283/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181627/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092593/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093342/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088763/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089606/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086066/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083866/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082971/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070040/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067959/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066279/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064541/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062136/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057197/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056592/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055618/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053198/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053291/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048980/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048424/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048473/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046487/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248062/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0214098/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252004/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1889380/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0213627/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045152/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040662/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040522/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038650/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038348/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032138/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0029843/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0029583/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028772/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0024216/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0012349/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0000417/
There are 65 entries, and 69 titles (because one of the entries is 5 short films).

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#4754

Post by Onderhond » July 14th, 2020, 1:46 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 1:08 pm
I think there is enough ground still to cover without having to look beyond our current adoption criteria.
Well yes, it's a matter of either plugging that final 10% or arthouse and critics favorites, or trying to cover some of the vast masses of unexplored genre, indie and commercial films (especially the non-so-English ones).

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#4755

Post by mjf314 » July 14th, 2020, 2:25 pm

I agree, there should be more national award lists. There are a few that the mods are considering.
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 11:30 am
http://www.modernkoreancinema.com/2019/ ... 2010s.html

A good Korea decade list that would cover the decade.
If we adopt a country-decade list, then it starts a precedent. If we start adopting country-decade lists for every country and every decade, there would be too many, and if we only adopt a few, the choice of which ones to adopt would seem arbitrary.
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:06 pm
https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/new ... -see-by-15

And BFI updated their 50 films to see by the age of 15 list, which was proposed as well and ended up very high in the much demanded lists. I don't think it would add a lot of official movies, although it would add I Wish / Kiseki from Hirokazu Koreeda. It is a solid list.
I would like to adopt a list of children's movies at some point, but I'm not sure which list is the best choice. Should we adopt the new BFI list, or the Common Sense list, or the Pixar list?
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:10 pm
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/movi ... hn+milton/

And what about making the MM top 1000 official. It's focused towards Asian and contemporary cinema and is composed by more than 50 film fanatics. These would all become official
We already have 3 official lists (of the same type) from Dutch websites. I'm not sure if a 4th would add much. Is there something about the MM list that makes it unique?

I've suggested the Douban top 250 in the past (although I'm not sure if other people support it). The userbase is roughly the same size as IMDb, but it's mostly Chinese people, so it's a different perspective.

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#4756

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 3:00 pm

mjf314 wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 2:25 pm
I agree, there should be more national award lists. There are a few that the mods are considering.
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 11:30 am
http://www.modernkoreancinema.com/2019/ ... 2010s.html

A good Korea decade list that would cover the decade.
If we adopt a country-decade list, then it starts a precedent. If we start adopting country-decade lists for every country and every decade, there would be too many, and if we only adopt a few, the choice of which ones to adopt would seem arbitrary.

Cinema Tropical already started that precedent. We could consider good decade country lists for major film countries and decades not covered in other lists, filling gaps (for now / temporarily). If a list is very qualitative, i'm not sure why it couldn't been added. Some countries that could use decade / 21st century lists are Italy, France, Germany, South-Korea, Japan, China/HK, Eastern Europe/Russia as a whole and maybe India / other large regions, unless the region / country is already covered by multiple lists with this decade covered, which is not the case yet. Ideally, the Korea and Asia book lists should be updated, than there is less of a problem, although the Asian cult cinema is less covered. My point is that Korean cinema started to flourish only in the 21st century, and that Japanese cult / genre cinema is underrepresented, and both countries recent movies from the last 12 years aren't well represented in lists, which is why I believe they need it more than other countries / regions, although i'm less informed about their status.
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:06 pm
https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/new ... -see-by-15

And BFI updated their 50 films to see by the age of 15 list, which was proposed as well and ended up very high in the much demanded lists. I don't think it would add a lot of official movies, although it would add I Wish / Kiseki from Hirokazu Koreeda. It is a solid list.
I would like to adopt a list of children's movies at some point, but I'm not sure which list is the best choice. Should we adopt the new BFI list, or the Common Sense list, or the Pixar list?

I'm not sure, but I would like a list as well that focuses on the best coming-of-age movies, although i haven't find any
Lakigigar wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:10 pm
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/movi ... hn+milton/

And what about making the MM top 1000 official. It's focused towards Asian and contemporary cinema and is composed by more than 50 film fanatics. These would all become official
We already have 3 official lists (of the same type) from Dutch websites. I'm not sure if a 4th would add much. Is there something about the MM list that makes it unique?

I've suggested the Douban top 250 in the past (although I'm not sure if other people support it). The userbase is roughly the same size as IMDb, but it's mostly Chinese people, so it's a different perspective.

MM top 1000 is a userbase that is much more informed and filmfanatic than another IMDb clone. It is unique in the sense that it is a top 1000, not created by ICM users who have their own lists as well, although i would like to add the ICM top 1000 as well, but it does add less because it's filled with official movies already. The MM top 1000 would add genre films, more contemporary cinema and more Asian cinema, and is also composed by (i think) 60 to 70 people. It adds a different perspective, and a great amount of users on ICM have been on MM as well. It's just a unique list I truly love, and which would add something.

We can always consider deleting the Filmtotaal official list which has been reset to it's earliest edition, is less interesting overall, only a top 100 and composed by much fewer members.
This is my opinion

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#4757

Post by Lakigigar » July 14th, 2020, 3:05 pm

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/time ... plists&asc Is also an option for teen movies.

F.Y.I. if IMDb is allowed to have 30+ lists, than i think 1 movie list for MM (their "great project") couldn't hurt, and if it should replace something, it should replace FilmTotaal which is a dead community now (although FilmTotaal top 100 is a great list for beginning movie watchers). But if userbased lists are a problem, we can cut in the IMDb lists.

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#4758

Post by Knaldskalle » July 14th, 2020, 3:26 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:53 pm
Tasselfoot wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm
If you were going to do a fan/forum top1000... why would you not use iCM forums?
The main reason would be that we'd be running in circles. But considering the current adoption criteria, that's pretty much the case already.
I agree with the first part, not sure I agree with the second part.

I know most people here won't fall into that category (or will at least deny that they do), but there's a sizable bias in which movies people check, with official checks far more likely to happen than unofficial checks. That means that the movies people are exposed to are more likely to be official checks, which in turn means that people's favorites are more likely to be official (faves being a subset of the total) and that in turn means that any 'favorite' list of ours is more likely to contain a lot of official checks. It's not just running in circles, it's almost incestuous at that point. Blech!

As for the second part, I think it's reasonable that mods set some criteria for the lists they want to consider for "officialdom." As to exactly what those criteria are (or should be) can always be debated, but I think that the mods in general have a pretty good handle on that part. The problem is, of course, that the habit(?) of making lists of movies seems to be particular to Western critics or Western film audiences (there's also a language barrier, and other factors), which means that most movie lists I've seen are Western focused (not the genre, the geo-political entity). Even most of the lists of other Continents are by Westerners who have developed an interest in that area's films (the African Movies list and Asian Film Guide for instance). So yes, if you want to stick to your criteria you may have a hard time finding good "qualifiying" lists from these areas, but I'm not sure whether that's an implicit Western bias towards other areas (because list-making seems to be a Western cultural activity that's not readily seen elsewhere) or it's because the critera set are poor. I think you can reasonably argue either way. I think that if you keep looking you'll eventually find good lists that will cover the lacking areas, but we do have to have patience for that approach to work.

Full disclosure: I used to be a mod on iCM, so take my opinion with the appropriate amount of salt. ;)
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#4759

Post by Knaldskalle » July 14th, 2020, 3:29 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 1:46 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 1:08 pm
I think there is enough ground still to cover without having to look beyond our current adoption criteria.
Well yes, it's a matter of either plugging that final 10% or arthouse and critics favorites, or trying to cover some of the vast masses of unexplored genre, indie and commercial films (especially the non-so-English ones).
You just made the same point I did in my post above, but much more succinct and to the point. Touche!
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#4760

Post by Lonewolf2003 » July 14th, 2020, 3:38 pm

Onderhond wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 1:46 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 1:08 pm
I think there is enough ground still to cover without having to look beyond our current adoption criteria.
Well yes, it's a matter of either plugging that final 10% or arthouse and critics favorites, or trying to cover some of the vast masses of unexplored genre, indie and commercial films (especially the non-so-English ones).
My point was that we are able to cover unexplored genres, indie, countries, commercial films and so on with lists that fit our criteria. I wasn't talking about covering the remaining 10% of the arthouse and critics favorites. Tho I'm not sure all those country and genres lists would appeal to you and they probably still will be way too arthouse and critics favorited orientated for you.

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