Welcome to the ICM Forum. If you have an account but have trouble logging in, or have other questions, see THIS THREAD.
Podcast: Talking Images (Episode 5 released June 2nd)
Polls: 1950s (Results), 1935 (Results), 1966 awards (Jun 9th), 2010s (Jun 30th)
Challenges: TSPDT, 1960s, China/Hong Kong/Taiwan
Film of the Week: Údolí vcel, July nominations (Jun 26th)
World Cup S4: Round 2 schedule, Match 2A: Poland vs Mexico (Jun 4th), Match 2B: Tajikistan vs Italy (Jun 14th)

New Official List Discussion

User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 31501
Joined: Feb 16, 2012
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: New Official List Discussion

#4601

Post by joachimt » April 23rd, 2020, 8:58 am

Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:27 am
joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:22 am
You always say there are significant gaps and most of the lists rehash the same kind of movies over and over again (and partly I agree with you), but you never offer a solution.
I offered one above.
Onderhond wrote:
April 22nd, 2020, 9:17 pm
If any of our lists would be worthy of adding to ICM, it would be the iCM Forum's Favourite Unofficial Checks - Top 1000.
I also explained why in the current setup, promoting deviant lists isn't of much use.
Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:45 am
As for "promoting your own favorite lists" ... #OscarsSoWhite
I'm hoping for something from outside the forum from a reputable source covering specific grounds. The favorite unofficial checks is a fun list, but it doesn't cover any interesting ground. It's a weird mix of movies with on one side of the spectrum obscure favorites from forum members and on the other the most seen movies that somehow missed all the current official lists.

I'd rather see you promoting a list of modern Asian cinema that covers different ground than the current official lists.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"

User avatar
fori
Posts: 1330
Joined: Aug 24, 2014
Contact:

#4602

Post by fori » April 23rd, 2020, 9:24 am

St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:27 am
What do you mean the standards were lighter?
I see two ideal ways for this to go: one in which we basically allow every list from every publication official list status and abolish official checks. It would be up to the user base (and all interested) to add those lists and propose them for official status, but if they came from any moderately legitimate source e.g. not “movies recommended to jimmy” it could become official. This would include DtC, Cracked.com’s 15 best female horror leads of the 90s and any book published, but not personal toplists. The other way is “priesthood of curation”.
I believe it does, in fact, I believe it is one of the most important list if we are aiming to cover this specific goal.
Well I strongly disagree, because there’s nothing moderately empirical about using the opinions of 8 random internet users to expand a canon compiled from numerous noteworthy critics, polls, publications and so on. It’s just not even close.
This is already disproven.

DtC was an official list before it was ever in any way associated with this forum.

It is that well-regarded and respected in the cinephile community.

Having it official is a way to promote it, and give it credit, nothing more, nothing less.
”Disproven”. This has nothing to do with my point. If it’s really so respected, it stands to lose nothing from being made unofficial as it will keep chugging along as usual with the same degree of user participation. Of course I know the history of it being on the IMDb boards and wherever else. It’s irrelevant! Currently (today, not 8 years ago on the IMDb boards), I think the biggest driver (or one of the biggest) of interest in this list is its official status. Prove me wrong! Make it unofficial and keep the tradition. I’ll gladly eat my words on this part of my argument.
Yes, it is one of the most impressive projects out there.
Not half as impressive as the film fanatic lists.

This is false.
See:
10 is a low number in terms of overall participation, but if you have the experience/knowledge, etc. it could definitely warrant inclusion.
You May disagree with the way I phrased it, but this was the point I was making.
As noted, the current criteria allow for even personal lists of 1 individual as long as it garners enough respect and interest. If you and your friends were expert at a niche, say you had all seen 500+ Samurai films, and made a comprehensive list, this could be of great value, and could warrant official status - but you and your "buddies" making any random list does not cut it.
As I noted, those individuals are remarkable for their work on the list, and usually those lists are ones that have been published in a meaningful way, by a legitimate outlet not solely tied to that list. The film hobbyists involved in DtC can attest to no such accomplishments.

Look I’m not a hater of DtC, I’ve spent more time on it that most participants! I’ve found many favourites of mine through the list, and have generally found the quality of the list to be above average for an ICM list. It is also valuable for showcasing a lot of cult favourites among cinephilia, as well as little known films that definitely do deserve more attention. BUT: it has no place as one of the ~200 lists empirically selected to introduce a broad array of film. I’m getting tired of these endless arguments, and ultimately it doesn’t matter that much to my life if TSPDT gets replaced by Wikipedia’s list of box office bombs. I’m making this case because I genuinely think it would improve the site.

User avatar
St. Gloede
Moderator
Posts: 10747
Joined: May 06, 2011
Contact:

#4603

Post by St. Gloede » April 23rd, 2020, 9:44 am

fori wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:24 am
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:27 am
What do you mean the standards were lighter?
I see two ideal ways for this to go: one in which we basically allow every list from every publication official list status and abolish official checks. It would be up to the user base (and all interested) to add those lists and propose them for official status, but if they came from any moderately legitimate source e.g. not “movies recommended to jimmy” it could become official. This would include DtC, Cracked.com’s 15 best female horror leads of the 90s and any book published, but not personal toplists. The other way is “priesthood of curation”.
That was not the question though.

You implied the standards were strict, and that DtC falls below some threshold. This is false.

The system you would prefer to see put in place does not reflect the current system, and as such is not too interesting in regard to the question, though it does reflects a very different way of looking at the site.

Personally I don't care what is official in terms of checks, but I realize that many people take official checks quite seriously. I would absolutely be inclined to remove this part of the gamification though (as it has certain negative side effects).

The way lists work at is that official lists, and by extension official checks, is a way to highlight films and put them on people's radar - as such DtC is one of the most important lists as far as I am concerned - but of course usage, views, etc. are different.

What is interesting is how opposed you are to such a popular and respected project being included. If a specific list does not interest you, just ignore it - ICM caters to most tastes/interests - and, to go back to the original statement/question, DtC is well within the current established standards.
I believe it does, in fact, I believe it is one of the most important list if we are aiming to cover this specific goal.
Well I strongly disagree, because there’s nothing moderately empirical about using the opinions of 8 random internet users to expand a canon compiled from numerous noteworthy critics, polls, publications and so on. It’s just not even close.
It is empirical in that 8 cinephiles have seen it, and that it pushed the high average rating threshold - meaning that it may be worth consideration (which to me is the most important function of ICM ). Agree to disagree.
This is already disproven.

DtC was an official list before it was ever in any way associated with this forum.

It is that well-regarded and respected in the cinephile community.

Having it official is a way to promote it, and give it credit, nothing more, nothing less.
”Disproven”. This has nothing to do with my point. If it’s really so respected, it stands to lose nothing from being made unofficial as it will keep chugging along as usual with the same degree of user participation. Of course I know the history of it being on the IMDb boards and wherever else. It’s irrelevant! Currently (today, not 8 years ago on the IMDb boards), I think the biggest driver (or one of the biggest) of interest in this list is its official status. Prove me wrong! Make it unofficial and keep the tradition. I’ll gladly eat my words on this part of my argument.
I can't prove your random feeling wrong, however, it is quite likely that several participants are not even on iCM - and as evidenced by the specific activity on this forum, i.e. the challenge to watch films that have been nominated, this is clearly irrelevant of ICM checks.

Your overall claim, however, must be conceded - as you were proven to be wrong - the list was adapted long before it was in any way affiliated with this forum. It was not added because of "us".
Yes, it is one of the most impressive projects out there.
Not half as impressive as the film fanatic lists.
Great, if you believe the fanatic lists should be included make their case, vote for these lists in polls, etc. I don't understand what your point is here.
This is false.
See:
10 is a low number in terms of overall participation, but if you have the experience/knowledge, etc. it could definitely warrant inclusion.
You May disagree with the way I phrased it, but this was the point I was making.[/quote]

How? You equated a list of 10 experts passing with 10 random buddies making a list, and you also made an equivocation fallacy of that being the same standard as DtC. A list by 10 people can be considered, absolutely, DtC passes a higher bar.
As noted, the current criteria allow for even personal lists of 1 individual as long as it garners enough respect and interest. If you and your friends were expert at a niche, say you had all seen 500+ Samurai films, and made a comprehensive list, this could be of great value, and could warrant official status - but you and your "buddies" making any random list does not cut it.
As I noted, those individuals are remarkable for their work on the list, and usually those lists are ones that have been published in a meaningful way, by a legitimate outlet not solely tied to that list. The film hobbyists involved in DtC can attest to no such accomplishments.
This is just not true. 366 is a personal blog list - and there are plenty of forum lists.
Look I’m not a hater of DtC, I’ve spent more time on it that most participants! I’ve found many favourites of mine through the list, and have generally found the quality of the list to be above average for an ICM list. It is also valuable for showcasing a lot of cult favourites among cinephilia, as well as little known films that definitely do deserve more attention. BUT: it has no place as one of the ~200 lists empirically selected to introduce a broad array of film. I’m getting tired of these endless arguments, and ultimately it doesn’t matter that much to my life if TSPDT gets replaced by Wikipedia’s list of box office bombs. I’m making this case because I genuinely think it would improve the site.
Again, completely disagree.

User avatar
fori
Posts: 1330
Joined: Aug 24, 2014
Contact:

#4604

Post by fori » April 23rd, 2020, 9:53 am

I’m not going to continue to argue here. You are not responding to many of the new points I am making, nor are you willing to listen to the substance of the old ones (how many times do I have to say that right now DtC is primarily driven by its official status on ICM only for you to respond with “but it wasn’t hosted on ICM Forum at the time we adopted it” - this couldn’t be less relevant). Hopefully we can move towards a better system whether we keep DtC or ditch it.

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 3987
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#4605

Post by Onderhond » April 23rd, 2020, 9:59 am

366 holds the middle between personal list and community project. Not quite sure how the balance lies there exactly, but it wasn't just one dude listing 366 films.
joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:58 am
I'm hoping for something from outside the forum from a reputable source covering specific grounds. The favorite unofficial checks is a fun list, but it doesn't cover any interesting ground. It's a weird mix of movies with on one side of the spectrum obscure favorites from forum members and on the other the most seen movies that somehow missed all the current official lists.

I'd rather see you promoting a list of modern Asian cinema that covers different ground than the current official lists.
It's hard when I don't agree with the definition of "reputable" that the site follows. Or at least, the stern belief that reputable equals interesting. Nor do I feel much interest for a contemporary Asian list in the current community, which makes it virtually impossible to make it a serious nomination. I could promote Mark Schilling's latest venture as a great list for contemporary Japanese films, but I could just save us the trouble and recite the popular argumentation against such a list.

Also extremely disagree with the point that the Unofficial 1000 doesn't cover any interesting ground. The fact that is based off unofficial lists makes it completely unique to the site, which is all about reputation and clout. Yes it's a weird and unexpected mix ... sounds like a perfect list for people who like exploration? :turned: But sure, if you take archetypical cinephilia as your base measure, it's not a very interesting list, but that's my entire point I guess.
Last edited by Onderhond on April 23rd, 2020, 10:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
St. Gloede
Moderator
Posts: 10747
Joined: May 06, 2011
Contact:

#4606

Post by St. Gloede » April 23rd, 2020, 10:00 am

I specifically tried to answer every point you made, and that despite the fact that from my view you are making very, very bad faith arguments, the most egregious being the one you just repeated (how many times do I have to say that right now DtC is primarily driven by its official status on ICM only for you to respond with) which I consistently proved to be false/have no basis - so yes, let's just end it.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7570
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#4607

Post by xianjiro » April 23rd, 2020, 10:11 am

Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:05 am
xianjiro wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 3:37 am
And while my approach to the iCM community is to see it as a big tent - in the sense that we can accommodate many different interests and goals - some things are impossible. We can't make every list official while recommending good lists of hidden gems for people to find. And again, I'm not saying this is anything like what you or anyone else advocates, but there are users who feel "the more the merrier" when it comes to official lists and others who believe there really is "too much of a good thing". Both types, and everyone in between, are members of the community and while we might prefer this or that approach, I don't believe iCM has one over-arching theme.
There is some/lots of variety when you get down to the level of individual users, but the meridian of ICM is plain, archetypical cinephilia (in the narrowest sense of the word). I understand that many consider that a positive thing, but it also excludes many smaller or less well-regarded niches of film fans. It's why I think lists like TSZDT are crucial to a site like ICM. It's a list that can appeal to actual horrorheads. Sadly those kind of lists are the exception, not the rule. Instead we get 100 AFI/BFI/AV this or that, which is just a subsection of 1000 book this or that, Criterion everything and TSPDT and competitors.
xianjiro wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 3:42 am
Onderhond wrote:
April 22nd, 2020, 9:17 pm
If any of our lists would be worthy of adding to ICM, it would be the iCM Forum's Favourite Unofficial Checks - Top 1000.
shugs wrote:
April 22nd, 2020, 9:26 pm
But that would make them official. :circle: :circle:
Touché!

And thanks for giving me a good chuckle.
I would say that is the beauty of such a list and in fact highlights something that is missing from most of the lists we have now. The touché remark only makes sense if you want to get medals and "work" on lists, but if you really care about exploration and uncovering lesser known gems (ie derive pleasure from the actual films), high variability is actually a big plus, as new films will be highlighted at least every two years (worst case scenario the same 1000 would alternate year after year, but as you can see on the current version, already 100+ films have become official in the meantime).

And of course, with hardly any of such lists present, the ICM community itself becomes more homogenous as people looking for niche inspiration aren't serviced by the site at all. And with those people missing, community feedback itself will point to increasingly more of the same. It's a negative spiral that will only be reinforced further when more ICM projects find their way onto the site.

As for unofficial lists, I will say one thing: ICM (the website) does a terrible job at showcasing/highlighting them. I've been here for 7 or 8 years and have hardly bothered to look at any of them.
well written, and believe it or not, especially your comment about showcasing/highlighting great and good unofficial lists is something I hope we can address. However, that said, some of the userbase does like an occasional new 100 Best Whatever films by ABC, PDQ, or XYZ. That doesn't make them completely useless, but I'd much prefer to find someone who's really passionate about a given genre, country, movement, or era and curates a good list addressing it than yet another cookie-cutter list of basically the usual suspects (that are already on a dozen other official lists). But even such passion is the target of critique similar to the points you make.

"Book sales are flagging M. Critic, can you churn out yet another film book? Let's see, you've already done action, romcom, thrillers, and teen slashers, maybe French farces? Nah, that's never going to sell, so how about '1000 Stupid Comedies for Idiots'?" Cue plenty of Adam Sandler and run for the hills.

Alas, humans can really be creatures of habit and since they liked the last two books, movies, CDs by so-and-so they are going to plop down their shekels to buy the next, but woe to the artist who deviates an iota from the expectations of the fans!

I'm closing in on 16,000 checks (can't say how many are movies let alone features, shorts, series, experiments gone horribly awry, etc) and still I'm surprised. The vast majority of these surprises come from 'working the lists'. Can't even guess what small percentage of films really get me going and I know I get cranky when I go a week, two, or more churning through yet another ... :yucky: But my system works for me and on some level, it takes a lot of average, and a few stunningly horrible, films to help one appreciate the divine. One can't know true happiness without occasionally shedding some tears - or so those much wiser than me have said.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
cinephage
Donator
Posts: 4007
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Contact:

#4608

Post by cinephage » April 23rd, 2020, 10:21 am

Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:59 am
366 holds the middle between personal list and community project. Not quite sure how the balance lies there exactly, but it wasn't just one dude listing 366 films.
joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 8:58 am
I'm hoping for something from outside the forum from a reputable source covering specific grounds. The favorite unofficial checks is a fun list, but it doesn't cover any interesting ground. It's a weird mix of movies with on one side of the spectrum obscure favorites from forum members and on the other the most seen movies that somehow missed all the current official lists.

I'd rather see you promoting a list of modern Asian cinema that covers different ground than the current official lists.
It's hard when I don't agree with the definition of "reputable" that the site follows. Or at least, the stern belief that reputable equals interesting. Nor do I feel much interest for a contemporary Asian list in the current community, which makes it virtually impossible to make it a serious nomination. I could promote Mark Schilling's latest venture as a great list for contemporary Japanese films, but I could just save us the trouble and recite the popular argumentation against such a list.

Also extremely disagree with the point that the Unofficial 1000 doesn't cover any interesting ground. The fact that is based off unofficial lists makes it completely unique to the site, which is all about reputation and clout. Yes it's a weird and unexpected mix ... sounds like a perfect list for people who like exploration? :turned: But sure, if you take archetypical cinephilia as your base measure, it's not a very interesting list, but that's my entire point I guess.
I feel if you found a few lists such as the one you just mentionned, they could be adopted or get support for adoption anyway...
I do enjoy the BIFFF Prize list, as it covers a wider range than simply horror, yet keeps a genre varnish of its own. But 36 is a pretty low figure...
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/brus ... sreynolds/

User avatar
St. Gloede
Moderator
Posts: 10747
Joined: May 06, 2011
Contact:

#4609

Post by St. Gloede » April 23rd, 2020, 10:27 am

I know the tool is not widely used anymore, but the Progress page/tab has so much potential. Would love for it to actually get more attention and developed into a type of log-book where you can also manage 1(or more) personal category tabs). This way we could easily divide the list into more tabs, we could even do an entire tab dedicated to horror (or just "genre"), etc.

(It could also be built out to cover a more coherent journey - i.e. beginner, intermediate, expert)

User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 3901
Joined: Jun 03, 2014
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

#4610

Post by Fergenaprido » April 23rd, 2020, 10:46 am

St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 10:27 am
I know the tool is not widely used anymore, but the Progress page/tab has so much potential. Would love for it to actually get more attention and developed into a type of log-book where you can also manage 1(or more) personal category tabs). This way we could easily divide the list into more tabs, we could even do an entire tab dedicated to horror (or just "genre"), etc.

(It could also be built out to cover a more coherent journey - i.e. beginner, intermediate, expert)
Do people really not use the progress page? That's one of my most visited pages on icm.

I would love to overhaul the tab categories on that page. I don't know the work needed behind the scenes, though, but it's something that's been brought up in discussion before.

And someone said they don't use the unofficial lists? I didn't quite follow that, but for me, if there's a film I like I'll often check out which other lists it's on and check some of those out. Or I'll search for a topic and browse the available lists. And lastly if there's a list I like that I find elsewhere, I'll try and add it to the site. I use the favorite button to keep track of the forum lists and a few key lists that I'm always actively working on for ongoing challenges or easy reference, and I use the watchlist button to keep track of lists that are interesting that I may want to delve further into.

This actually makes me think of another possible script idea: Right now in the Enhance script, filmographies are moved to the top of the list. Would it be possible to have lists on your favorite/watchlist also be moved to the top? That would go a long way in helping to make progress on unofficial lists.

I also don't watchlist or favorite any official lists, since they're all on the progress page anyway (unless I want to do the compare list function, in which case I'll watchlist them temporarily). I have 71 lists favorited and 527 lists watchlisted (with a few overlapping). Plus, I've added 73 lists. Official lists are still the gold standard for me, but in my "to watch" spreadsheet I use to prioritize filmwatching, unofficial lists play a big part too.

tl;dr - Unofficial lists are amazing and seemingly underutilized, but I use them extensively to help me find new films to watch.

User avatar
St. Gloede
Moderator
Posts: 10747
Joined: May 06, 2011
Contact:

#4611

Post by St. Gloede » April 23rd, 2020, 11:03 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 10:46 am
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 10:27 am
I know the tool is not widely used anymore, but the Progress page/tab has so much potential. Would love for it to actually get more attention and developed into a type of log-book where you can also manage 1(or more) personal category tabs). This way we could easily divide the list into more tabs, we could even do an entire tab dedicated to horror (or just "genre"), etc.

(It could also be built out to cover a more coherent journey - i.e. beginner, intermediate, expert)
Do people really not use the progress page? That's one of my most visited pages on icm.
That's the feedback Erik and Piet gave back when ICM 1.0 was updated to 2.0. They even considered removing it entirely, but many on the forum argued against it. Would love to hear some stats from Marjin - but I would expect it to be used even less as it is now an extra click away.

I really think it is a mixed opportunity, as it is so easy to get an overview over lists.
tl;dr - Unofficial lists are amazing and seemingly underutilized, but I use them extensively to help me find new films to watch.
Agreed, I really wish there was a way to organize/categorize them similar to the tabs as this is currently a bit of a blob.

User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 8424
Joined: Feb 03, 2017
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#4612

Post by sol » April 23rd, 2020, 11:35 am

St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 11:03 am
Fergenaprido wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 10:46 am
Do people really not use the progress page? That's one of my most visited pages on icm.
That's the feedback Erik and Piet gave back when ICM 1.0 was updated to 2.0. They even considered removing it entirely, but many on the forum argued against it. Would love to hear some stats from Marjin - but I would expect it to be used even less as it is now an extra click away.
Outside of 'Active Topics' on this forum, the progress page is probably single page that I refresh the most on any given day. :mellow:
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image

User avatar
zuma
Donator
Posts: 2076
Joined: Jun 14, 2011
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Contact:

#4613

Post by zuma » April 23rd, 2020, 11:45 am

Progress page is my most visited page on ICM as well.

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 3987
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#4614

Post by Onderhond » April 23rd, 2020, 11:52 am

Some simple display rework isn't going to be enough to properly uncover unofficial lists though. If I check films like Helter Skelter (53) and Honey Pupu (35), the numbers look very promising, but half of these are my own lists or and the rest is coming from people/sites that probably picked it up from me promoting them. A better filter system (instead of that teeny, tiny, puzzling little search box on top) would probably go a long way already.

And talking about filters, they would be very handy to have on lists too. Instead of 10 AFI/BFI genre lists, why not add country/genre/decade filters on the list pages. So when you're looking for good comedies, you could simply take the TSPDT list and filter for comedy. (only country might be a problem, as that info isn't available on the film detail page). That still doesn't serve the medal crowd, but at least it makes bigger lists much more accessible to people starting out with their film hobby.

This discussion is pretty moot though, I don't think new functionality is a top priority for ICM right now, since we've been moving to a "new platform" for the past 5 years.

User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 31501
Joined: Feb 16, 2012
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#4615

Post by joachimt » April 23rd, 2020, 12:24 pm

sol wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 11:35 am
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 11:03 am
Fergenaprido wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 10:46 am
Do people really not use the progress page? That's one of my most visited pages on icm.
That's the feedback Erik and Piet gave back when ICM 1.0 was updated to 2.0. They even considered removing it entirely, but many on the forum argued against it. Would love to hear some stats from Marjin - but I would expect it to be used even less as it is now an extra click away.
Outside of 'Active Topics' on this forum, the progress page is probably single page that I refresh the most on any given day. :mellow:
Why?
I only go there if I want to go to a specific list.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"

User avatar
mightysparks
Site Admin
Posts: 30477
Joined: May 05, 2011
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#4616

Post by mightysparks » April 23rd, 2020, 12:28 pm

I always have my progress page open. My most visited page too.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

iCM | IMDb | LastFM | TSZDT

Image

AdamH
Site Admin
Posts: 12317
Joined: May 05, 2011
Contact:

#4617

Post by AdamH » April 23rd, 2020, 12:31 pm

I'd love to have an "unofficial lists" tab on progress page where you could add up to a certain amount (however many can fit) onto your own progress page. You then log in and can go on it and see your progress in the unofficial lists you're working in. I'm guessing it's probably far too much work and not enough people would use it for it to be worthwhile but it's something I'd use a lot.

User avatar
St. Gloede
Moderator
Posts: 10747
Joined: May 06, 2011
Contact:

#4618

Post by St. Gloede » April 23rd, 2020, 12:34 pm

I don't think it would be a lot of work - the structure is set up already - all you need is a personal tab where you can add lists - the logo can be generic, all other features would be the same.

User avatar
Teproc
Posts: 593
Joined: Sep 23, 2015
Contact:

#4619

Post by Teproc » April 23rd, 2020, 12:34 pm

The progress page is also the ICM page I have bookmarked and visit the most.

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 3987
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#4620

Post by Onderhond » April 23rd, 2020, 12:46 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:34 pm
I don't think it would be a lot of work - the structure is set up already - all you need is a personal tab where you can add lists - the logo can be generic, all other features would be the same.
But you would have to do it for ICM 1.0 ... and then 2.0/3.0 too (whatever the status is there).
And what you propose sounds an awful lot like the "watchlist" page, only you can't order on "closest award/rank" (which has no real meaning on unofficial lists in either case), which is only interesting if you care about "working" on lists. So the benefit would be rather small and you'd be duplicating functionality.

I use the progress page from time to time, but mostly because it gives an easier overview of all the official lists than the official lists page (which is paginated). Not because I'm checking actual progress.

User avatar
WalterNeff
Donator
Posts: 3185
Joined: Jul 27, 2011
Contact:

#4621

Post by WalterNeff » April 23rd, 2020, 1:26 pm

What we really need are Schrödinger's lists - list that are both official and unofficial at the same time. That way everyone would be pleased.

User avatar
St. Gloede
Moderator
Posts: 10747
Joined: May 06, 2011
Contact:

#4622

Post by St. Gloede » April 23rd, 2020, 1:32 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:46 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:34 pm
I don't think it would be a lot of work - the structure is set up already - all you need is a personal tab where you can add lists - the logo can be generic, all other features would be the same.
But you would have to do it for ICM 1.0 ... and then 2.0/3.0 too (whatever the status is there).
And what you propose sounds an awful lot like the "watchlist" page, only you can't order on "closest award/rank" (which has no real meaning on unofficial lists in either case), which is only interesting if you care about "working" on lists. So the benefit would be rather small and you'd be duplicating functionality.

I use the progress page from time to time, but mostly because it gives an easier overview of all the official lists than the official lists page (which is paginated). Not because I'm checking actual progress.
Is ICM 1.0 still around?

Yes, it would simply be an extension of the watchlist feature, but adding them to the same place you track your progress for official lists, making it easier and cleaner.

I would personally like it to go even further, i.e. you have full editorial rights ver your progress tabs and can add and REMOVE lists as you see fit, so that it only covers lists you are interested in - but that may go against ICMs focus on official lists. I might be in the minority of not caring about official lists/checks (beyond added visibility).

User avatar
flavo5000
Posts: 2923
Joined: Jul 10, 2014
Location: Arkansas, USA
Contact:

#4623

Post by flavo5000 » April 23rd, 2020, 1:38 pm

I definitely use the Progress page more than any other too. Very useful if you are into the actual gamification aspect of the site since it's handily lets you see what lists you're closest to finishing or getting a bronze, silver, etc. on as well as how you rank on them.

Having said that, I do work on quite a few unofficial lists too. I honestly don't get all the back-and-forth on DtC being official. It's fine. Leave it alone.

Also forget the IMDB Top Indian films list. I've got the perfect Indian list to be adopted right here:
Funky Bollywood: The Wild World of 1970s Indian Action Cinema.

I need to see awesomeness like James Bond 777 and Pistolwali be official, folks! :banana:

mjf314
Moderator
Posts: 11258
Joined: May 08, 2011
Contact:

#4624

Post by mjf314 » April 23rd, 2020, 1:39 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Yes, it would simply be an extension of the watchlist feature, but adding them to the same place you track your progress for official lists, making it easier and cleaner.
If you just want to see how many films you've watched from each list, it could probably be done with a script. There just wouldn't be a rank.

I'm not sure if I want to spend the time to write the script. I'm just throwing the idea out there in case someone else wants to do it.

User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 31501
Joined: Feb 16, 2012
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#4625

Post by joachimt » April 23rd, 2020, 1:46 pm

mightysparks wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:28 pm
I always have my progress page open. My most visited page too.
Teproc wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:34 pm
The progress page is also the ICM page I have bookmarked and visit the most.
Why?
flavo5000 wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:38 pm
I definitely use the Progress page more than any other too. Very useful if you are into the actual gamification aspect of the site since it's handily lets you see what lists you're closest to finishing or getting a bronze, silver, etc. on as well as how you rank on them.
Are you doing this on a daily basis? Your progress doesn't change so quickly, does it? I sometimes look at my progress as well, but very rarely. But if I set a goal, it takes some time to finish the goal. Looking at my progress daily or weekly (or even monthly) sounds useless to me.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"

User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 8424
Joined: Feb 03, 2017
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#4626

Post by sol » April 23rd, 2020, 1:48 pm

joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:24 pm
sol wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 11:35 am
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 11:03 am


That's the feedback Erik and Piet gave back when ICM 1.0 was updated to 2.0. They even considered removing it entirely, but many on the forum argued against it. Would love to hear some stats from Marjin - but I would expect it to be used even less as it is now an extra click away.
Outside of 'Active Topics' on this forum, the progress page is probably single page that I refresh the most on any given day. :mellow:
Why?
I only go there if I want to go to a specific list.
Exaggeration perhaps, but I do enjoy checking my how my rankings have changed whenever the rankings update. Gamification and all. :whistling:
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image

User avatar
Tasselfoot
Posts: 436
Joined: May 06, 2014
Contact:

#4627

Post by Tasselfoot » April 23rd, 2020, 1:57 pm

xianjiro wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 3:57 am
St. Gloede wrote:
April 22nd, 2020, 11:14 pm
Tasselfoot wrote:
April 22nd, 2020, 11:06 pm
I'd really love to see more lists that appeal to a larger audience of user. Lists that are approachable; shorter, from more sources like BFI, TimeOut, AV Club, etc. Best 200 Latin films from 1 decade is not approachable, as one more recent example. It's ok to have some filters and not include every single film voted on by every critic polled when putting a list together.
That is actually a very good idea, which could draw in more users. Depending on how short it could shake the forum of ICM up a little, but could easily be done.
Agreed. But I have to wonder how useful a new list of 100 'popular' action films would be if 30 of the films on it are also on the IMDb action list and 60 are on the Action A-Z list. (And no, this is illustrative of a concept and not meant to reflect actual list overlaps.) I'm also going to hazard a guess that the entire list would also have, at best, a handful of new official checks, if that. Would this really satisfy any iCM constituency other than those who get excited about how many awards they have acquired?
The lists I've enjoyed most are genre or time specific lists, in the 50-100 film range, where I can actively work and explore deeper than surface level that aspect of film. I did this with 100 Sci-Fi, 100 War, 100 World Cinema, 100 Romance, the AFI 100s, Fantasy Cinema (all Plat)... and I'm working on 100 Gangster, 100 Controversial, and 100 from 2010s. Who cares if there are few or no new official checks? Why is that a barometer? Exposure to the new list (and the gamification it being Official implies) leads me to check the films out, whereas I wouldn't have, if it had just been on 1 random 1000 movie list that I'd never directly work on.

And unrated to the above: the Progress page is also my most visited page on the site. I like seeing the numbers going up. I like seeing the progress I'm making. I like planning out what I'm going to work on next. I like working towards top 500 on all lists. The gamification of the lists/site is a crucially important aspect of the site as a whole. And while many claim that they don't care about it... there are 200,000+ members on the site, so it clearly does matter to many. It also clearly matters because of how hotly we debate existing and new official lists.

User avatar
Teproc
Posts: 593
Joined: Sep 23, 2015
Contact:

#4628

Post by Teproc » April 23rd, 2020, 1:58 pm

joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:46 pm
mightysparks wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:28 pm
I always have my progress page open. My most visited page too.
Teproc wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:34 pm
The progress page is also the ICM page I have bookmarked and visit the most.
Why?
flavo5000 wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:38 pm
I definitely use the Progress page more than any other too. Very useful if you are into the actual gamification aspect of the site since it's handily lets you see what lists you're closest to finishing or getting a bronze, silver, etc. on as well as how you rank on them.
Are you doing this on a daily basis? Your progress doesn't change so quickly, does it? I sometimes look at my progress as well, but very rarely. But if I set a goal, it takes some time to finish the goal. Looking at my progress daily or weekly (or even monthly) sounds useless to me.
It's pretty ? I guess I'm not sure what other ICM page I'm supposed to be looking at, before searching for a particular film. The dashboard I suppose, I never use that because... I don't know, I like sorting by closest award and or rank and looking at that, it's more interesting than my recent activity, because I already know about that. It's just a bunch of data you can glance over I suppose.

User avatar
zuma
Donator
Posts: 2076
Joined: Jun 14, 2011
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Contact:

#4629

Post by zuma » April 23rd, 2020, 2:11 pm

What he said. I don't know what else you could possibly being doing on the site. How do you use ICM Joachimt?

If someone were to tell me I spend 90% of my ICM time on the progress page I would not be surprised. (The other 10% being on The Dark Knight" film page after inadvertently clicking on that film from the search results. B) )

EDIT: This reminds me of the "Active Topics" discussion a while back.

User avatar
mightysparks
Site Admin
Posts: 30477
Joined: May 05, 2011
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#4630

Post by mightysparks » April 23rd, 2020, 2:14 pm

Already been said by others but: the progress page is pretty, it’s easy to see all official lists at a glance, I’d love to have a tab for unofficial lists too because I find the watchlist page just.. not pretty. I can access all lists easily. It’s the best page to bounce off to any other part of the site I want to visit. If I’m in the mood to play icm, I can see ranks and numbers and awards at a glance.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

iCM | IMDb | LastFM | TSZDT

Image

User avatar
flavo5000
Posts: 2923
Joined: Jul 10, 2014
Location: Arkansas, USA
Contact:

#4631

Post by flavo5000 » April 23rd, 2020, 2:15 pm

joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:46 pm
mightysparks wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:28 pm
I always have my progress page open. My most visited page too.
Teproc wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:34 pm
The progress page is also the ICM page I have bookmarked and visit the most.
Why?
flavo5000 wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:38 pm
I definitely use the Progress page more than any other too. Very useful if you are into the actual gamification aspect of the site since it's handily lets you see what lists you're closest to finishing or getting a bronze, silver, etc. on as well as how you rank on them.
Are you doing this on a daily basis? Your progress doesn't change so quickly, does it? I sometimes look at my progress as well, but very rarely. But if I set a goal, it takes some time to finish the goal. Looking at my progress daily or weekly (or even monthly) sounds useless to me.
I do look at it daily. It's less because of progress change and more because it's an easy way to find suggestions for things to watch that I want to make progress on. So for instance right now I have 26 lists that I've 2 or less movies away from getting an award on. It's helpful to know which ones if I want to try to get one of them today or tomorrow just by slightly adjusting what I had planned to watch for the day. I'll especially often look at the cross-section of lists I'm close to an award on with the challenges going on this month. So I just noticed I'm 2 movies away from finishing the IMDB Top 1950s list, so I may prioritize watching those two over the next few days just to finish out that list.

User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 3901
Joined: Jun 03, 2014
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

#4632

Post by Fergenaprido » April 23rd, 2020, 2:16 pm

I use the progress page for three main purposes:
1. Easiest way to get to a specific official list. As someone else mentioned, it's better than the official tab on the lists page that has them paginated, and looks better and provides more info.
2. To get a general overview of how I'm doing on official lists (gamification), either for how close I am to certain awards or certain ranks.
3. To update my spreadsheet with my rank and #films seen for each list.

1. is done whenever I want to access a certain list. Sometimes once a week, sometimes 10 times a day.
2. is done once every week or two, depending on what I'm focusing on.
3. is done once a month.

Also, for unofficial lists, in one of the scripts (Enhanced?) you can see how close you are to unofficial bronze, silver, gold, and platinum on both the individual list page and in your watchlist & favorited lists pages. So what was proposed above definitely sounds scriptable.

And one can already filter films by genre, year, and director using the filter option on a particular list (mind you, I haven't used it on 3.0 yet, and I know on 2.0 it excludes tags added in the past 2 years or so).

User avatar
St. Gloede
Moderator
Posts: 10747
Joined: May 06, 2011
Contact:

#4633

Post by St. Gloede » April 23rd, 2020, 2:17 pm

mjf314 wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:39 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Yes, it would simply be an extension of the watchlist feature, but adding them to the same place you track your progress for official lists, making it easier and cleaner.
If you just want to see how many films you've watched from each list, it could probably be done with a script. There just wouldn't be a rank.

I'm not sure if I want to spend the time to write the script. I'm just throwing the idea out there in case someone else wants to do it.
This already exists on the favourites feature, so no need - my suggestion was simply to allow us to add unofficial lists to the progress tab to have everything we want to keep an overview of all the same place.

User avatar
72aicm
Donator
Posts: 3238
Joined: Nov 13, 2016
Contact:

#4634

Post by 72aicm » April 23rd, 2020, 2:18 pm

zuma wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 2:11 pm
(The other 10% being on The Dark Knight" film page after inadvertently clicking on that film from the search results. B)
:lol:

mjf314
Moderator
Posts: 11258
Joined: May 08, 2011
Contact:

#4635

Post by mjf314 » April 23rd, 2020, 2:21 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 2:17 pm
mjf314 wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:39 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Yes, it would simply be an extension of the watchlist feature, but adding them to the same place you track your progress for official lists, making it easier and cleaner.
If you just want to see how many films you've watched from each list, it could probably be done with a script. There just wouldn't be a rank.

I'm not sure if I want to spend the time to write the script. I'm just throwing the idea out there in case someone else wants to do it.
This already exists on the favourites feature, so no need - my suggestion was simply to allow us to add unofficial lists to the progress tab to have everything we want to keep an overview of all the same place.
That's what I meant. A script that displays all of your favorited (or watchlisted) lists on the progress page.

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 3987
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#4636

Post by Onderhond » April 23rd, 2020, 2:37 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Is ICM 1.0 still around?
?

If I click on "Pssst, want to check out your progress in our new look?", it doesn't even load for me and still leads to beta.icheckmovies. So yeah, that doesn't look too official. 1.0 is still the way most people consume the site I guess.
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Yes, it would simply be an extension of the watchlist feature, but adding them to the same place you track your progress for official lists, making it easier and cleaner.

I would personally like it to go even further, i.e. you have full editorial rights ver your progress tabs and can add and REMOVE lists as you see fit, so that it only covers lists you are interested in - but that may go against ICMs focus on official lists. I might be in the minority of not caring about official lists/checks (beyond added visibility).
I think you're a minority in the sense that you don't care about official checks, but do care about completing lists? I care little for official checks, also don't care a lot about progress. I see lists as a way to find new films, so progress to me is of little consequence, unless my OCD takes over.

It's obvious the gamification aspect is important to some people, I just feel it is overstated, especially on this forum, where the most diehard ICM users gather. It's just a shame it tends to overshadow some other interesting goals ICM could have.

User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 31501
Joined: Feb 16, 2012
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#4637

Post by joachimt » April 23rd, 2020, 2:40 pm

zuma wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 2:11 pm
What he said. I don't know what else you could possibly being doing on the site. How do you use ICM Joachimt?
Well, first of all, I never prioritize movies because I'm close to a certain award, so I don't need to go to the progress page for stuff like that. I also don't keep stats like Fergy described.

My most frequent behavior on iCM?
Go to a moviepage (from the searchfield or directly from the IMDb links script) and check the movie.
Go to a moviepage to see if it's on lists (movies that have been added to my streaming services).

After that it's all kinds of things.
- Updating some personal lists.
- Exporting lists to filter in Excel with other lists.
- Look at the unchecked-tab on a list I'm working on to see which movies I'd be able to get.
- Mods-stuff.
- ......

I mostly visit moviepages and listpages. To go to listpages I go through the progress page, but I seldomly look at my rankings of all lists, because I'm only interested in my ranking on a handful of lists. Well, only one actually, Unesco.

I don't select movies because they are on X official lists and I don't select movies to gain an award.
1. Movies that pop up on my streaming services. I check if they are on an official list. If yes, I watchlist (most of) them.
2. Newly available movies from Unesco and Rosenbaum lists.
3. Movies from forum activities: FotW and WC.
4. Official checks less than 70 min.
5. Movies from one specific list I'm working on: currently (and has been for a while) TSPDT all editions.

95% of my watches are from #1. It was less, but MUBI combined with VPN is a large source for movies for me. So my current watching behavior is determined by MUBI, Amazon Prime, Disney+, World Cup, FotW and a few movies from #4. I hardly get around to #5 at the moment.

So to answer your question:
I use iCM mostly as a recommendation-tool for the movies that are available to me in a legal way. The progress page doesn't help with that.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"

User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 31501
Joined: Feb 16, 2012
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#4638

Post by joachimt » April 23rd, 2020, 2:41 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 2:37 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Is ICM 1.0 still around?
?

If I click on "Pssst, want to check out your progress in our new look?", it doesn't even load for me and still leads to beta.icheckmovies. So yeah, that doesn't look too official. 1.0 is still the way most people consume the site I guess.
Psst is 3.0.
The live version is 2.0.
You probably never used 1.0. It's from a long time ago. I never saw it either. It was 2.0 when I joined. Maybe someone has some old screenshots from the early days?
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 3987
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#4639

Post by Onderhond » April 23rd, 2020, 2:44 pm

It seems that many people are using the progress page because it is better designed to get a good overview of all the official lists (and I include myself there). That is just bad UX on ICM's part then and has little to do with the actual functionality of the page of course. It would also be a bad choice to simply copy over functionality from elsewhere, leave the original problem intact and create extra complexity just because one section has a better designed overview, but I understand that the users of the site don't really care about that.

Again, this stuff is fun to discuss, but it doesn't seem likely that anything is going to change soon?
joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 2:41 pm
Psst is 3.0.
The live version is 2.0.
You probably never used 1.0. It's from a long time ago. I never saw it either. It was 2.0 when I joined. Maybe someone has some old screenshots from the early days?
Ah, my mistake then. But am I correct that there's also a newer version than 3.0? I thought I'd read such a thing, but that may be due to my original confusion.

mjf314
Moderator
Posts: 11258
Joined: May 08, 2011
Contact:

#4640

Post by mjf314 » April 23rd, 2020, 2:52 pm

joachimt wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 2:41 pm
Onderhond wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 2:37 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Is ICM 1.0 still around?
?

If I click on "Pssst, want to check out your progress in our new look?", it doesn't even load for me and still leads to beta.icheckmovies. So yeah, that doesn't look too official. 1.0 is still the way most people consume the site I guess.
Psst is 3.0.
The live version is 2.0.
You probably never used 1.0. It's from a long time ago. I never saw it either. It was 2.0 when I joined. Maybe someone has some old screenshots from the early days?
You can see iCM 1.0 on archive.org.

Here's the homepage: https://web.archive.org/web/20111204225 ... ovies.com/
Here's a user profile: https://web.archive.org/web/20111124173 ... file/rich/

@Onderhond: The beta site is iCM 3.0. I guess it'll become the main site sometime in the future, but I don't know when.

Post Reply