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New Official List Discussion

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Re: New Official List Discussion

#4481

Post by max-scl » April 3rd, 2020, 10:06 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 10:46 am
We're always open to suggestions, so if you know a good list for a country/region, let us know! We will look into it and discuss the list.
wrt awards:

Europe:
1. Italy David di Donatello
2. Russia Nika Award
3. France #2 Louis Delluc
4. UK Bafta Best British Film


Asia:
1. Japan Japan Academy Prize
2. Taiwan/China Golden Horse Award
3. South Korea Grand Bell Award
4. Israel Ophir Award
5. Hong Kong HK Film Award

Americas:
1. Argentina Silver Condor Award
2. Canada Genie Award

Oceania:
1. Australia AACTA

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#4482

Post by zuma » April 3rd, 2020, 10:12 pm

That Japan Academy Prize is almost as bad as the Japan list we currently have.

Hopefully, if the mods ever get around to Japan again they will adopt Donald Richie’s 100 years of Japanese film.

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/dona ... htysparks/

It has 60 favourites and no dislikes, is from a famous critic, based on a list from his book, and is the best list of Japanese films I have seen. Should have been official years ago IMO.

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#4483

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » April 3rd, 2020, 10:17 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 9:51 pm
Philippines has to be up there, and it's less well-represented than Denmark and Mexico on other lists, certainly.
The question was movie output and Philippines doesn't have the movie output of those countries. Which country is least well represented is a very different and much more complex question. I could imagine Philippines being there since it has fewer films on other lists relative to size.

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#4484

Post by beavis » April 3rd, 2020, 10:35 pm

zuma wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 10:12 pm
That Japan Academy Prize is almost as bad as the Japan list we currently have.

Hopefully, if the mods ever get around to Japan again they will adopt Donald Richie’s 100 years of Japanese film.

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/dona ... htysparks/

It has 60 favourites and no dislikes, is from a famous critic, based on a list from his book, and is the best list of Japanese films I have seen. Should have been official years ago IMO.
He limited his list to availabiliy of the movies on home video, which makes it less atractive...

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#4485

Post by zuma » April 3rd, 2020, 11:31 pm

beavis wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 10:35 pm
zuma wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 10:12 pm
That Japan Academy Prize is almost as bad as the Japan list we currently have.

Hopefully, if the mods ever get around to Japan again they will adopt Donald Richie’s 100 years of Japanese film.

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/dona ... htysparks/

It has 60 favourites and no dislikes, is from a famous critic, based on a list from his book, and is the best list of Japanese films I have seen. Should have been official years ago IMO.
He limited his list to availabiliy of the movies on home video, which makes it less atractive...
That seems like looking for a reason to exclude it. It is still a great collection of films and at least we know the list can all be seen and completed. Way better than the cheesy sex romps of the official Kinema Junpo list.

The Tadao Sato list does not have that home video restriction and a third of the list is lost or does not have subtitles. What is the point of a list like that?

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#4486

Post by mjf314 » April 4th, 2020, 12:13 am

zuma wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 11:31 pm
The Tadao Sato list does not have that home video restriction and a third of the list is lost or does not have subtitles. What is the point of a list like that?
It hasn't been decided yet which Japanese list to adopt next.

About 20% of the films on Tadao Sato's list don't have English subs, but many of those films are available, so they can be subbed in the future.

I'm not sure if any of them are lost. I assume most of them are available somewhere, maybe VHS or DVD if not online.

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#4487

Post by zuma » April 4th, 2020, 12:30 am

mjf314 wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 12:13 am
zuma wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 11:31 pm
The Tadao Sato list does not have that home video restriction and a third of the list is lost or does not have subtitles. What is the point of a list like that?
It hasn't been decided yet which Japanese list to adopt next.

About 20% of the films on Tadao Sato's list don't have English subs, but many of those films are available, so they can be subbed in the future.

I'm not sure if any of them are lost. I assume most of them are available somewhere, maybe VHS or DVD if not online.
I thought it was higher. There is a list of subbed films from his list that has it at 221/305. So 28% without subs. If the powers that be think a list where 28% can’t be watched by the majority of people on the site is a better choice...

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#4488

Post by mjf314 » April 4th, 2020, 12:38 am

That list was last updated in 2014. Some of the films have been subbed since then.

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#4489

Post by OldAle1 » April 4th, 2020, 12:48 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 10:17 pm
OldAle1 wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 9:51 pm
Philippines has to be up there, and it's less well-represented than Denmark and Mexico on other lists, certainly.
The question was movie output and Philippines doesn't have the movie output of those countries. Which country is least well represented is a very different and much more complex question. I could imagine Philippines being there since it has fewer films on other lists relative to size.
It's pretty hard to compare the outputs of Denmark and Mexico to the Philippines - or each other or other countries generally - since both countries have vast numbers of co-productions, as do other countries in Scandanavia and Latin America, whereas most Filipino films are mostly or entirely locally funded - at least nowadays, they were often American or Italian co-productions in the golden age of exploitation in the 60s-70s. But a comparison with Israel would be instructive since it was most recently chosen, and like the Philippines doesn't have a huge percentage of co-productions. But I will include Mexico and Denmark anyway since you mention them. According to IMDb

Feature film production, 2010s

Mexico 1344
Philippines 1295
Israel 695
Denmark 531

2000s

Philippines 944
Mexico 769
Denmark 412
Israel 252

1990s

Philippines 1431
Mexico 1349
Denmark 236
Israel 186

These are raw numbers without pulling out any co-productions at all - I will note that Mexico has had a LOT of co-productions with the USA, Spain, Argentina, etc, in the 2010s.

I don't think I need to post any more decades to prove my point, though to be fair the Philippines' native output, excluding exploitation stuff, before the 70s isn't nearly as impressive as Mexico's or Denmark's, maybe no more interesting or large than Israel's. Point is that if you're talking output the Philippines is - over the last 30 years anyway - right up there with a lot of the most productive 2nd and 3rd-world cinemas. Quality is another matter and is entirely subjective of course, and it would be silly for me to go through a bunch of subjective lists to try to prove that this country or that has more or better directors. But I think if you're going to argue that a country isn't important enough or whatever you're not going to get anywhere on the output question, because it's clear that output hasn't always mattered that much in the choices that have been made.

Not trying to rag on you or anyone else in admin, Peaceful, and I'm pleased with the Israel list and the efforts on the lists in general. I just don't think you're making a convincing argument here.

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#4490

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » April 4th, 2020, 1:18 am

If output is the only thing that matters Nigeria wins, and yes Philippines is above Denmark.
If we're restricting it to "output people outside the country want to watch" then Denmark and Mexico win.
Films in Tagalog ordered by imdb votes: the highest Filipino film is Metro Manila with 7665 imdb votes. Two pages in by #100 you're at 273 imdb votes.
Films in Danish ordered by imdb votes: the highest Danish film is Jagten with 259179 imdb votes. Two pages in by #100 you're at 3836 imdb votes, you have to go down to #586 to get to a film with 273 imdb votes.
The above is not exact as both lists still contain a few coproductions, but much fewer than going by production country and should be roughly even.

Argentina and Mexico are harder to compare because language won't serve as a nice co-production filter, but both countries have more internationally acclaimed movies. That also means they're both better represented on other lists, so if the question is which is the biggest reasonably notable country that is not adequately represented, then Philippines might be the winner there.

None of this is an argument for or against Philippines being good enough. Just because not a lot of people watch them doesn't mean they aren't good films or that there aren't enough good ones worth adopting or that there isn't any interest. I'm not making any argument about list adoption or film quality in this post. The question was output, the answer is Nigeria, I'm certain. The implication of the question was output in the context of ICM. In that context Denmark has no non-award official list and is clearly of wide enough cineaste interest in a way Philippines isn't.
But I think if you're going to argue that a country isn't important enough or whatever you're not going to get anywhere on the output question
I was never making this argument, I simply answered a question about output and wanted to qualify the Nigeria answer because while that's the technical answer I didn't think it replied to the spirit of the question.

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#4491

Post by zuma » April 4th, 2020, 2:25 am

mjf314 wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 12:38 am
That list was last updated in 2014. Some of the films have been subbed since then.
OK. Then it is likely closer to the 20% you mentioned. So about 60 films in the list without subs.

Anyway, we just got some new lists, and Japan is likely not on the horizon. Who knows, by the time anyone things about adopting another Japan list it might be 2030 and all the titles on Tadao Sato's list will have subs. No point in discussing it further.

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#4492

Post by sol » April 4th, 2020, 2:33 am

While we are throwing countries out there, I would like to see a New Zealand list. I haven't managed to find anything on the internet beyond the occasional top ten, but the country has over 200 features and documentaries with over 200 IMDb votes. :unsure:

Otherwise, yeah, Argentina seems to be a striking gap.

Oh, and The Caribbean.

I mean, if we are saying that 40 films is okay for Israel, what about this list?

Caribbean Classics https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/cari ... /ataraxic/

The Caribbean Film Database includes a section of classic films. These are films that live on from generation to generation because they are exceptionally well-made and reflect universal stories that transcend their period. There is a rich cinematic history in the Caribbean consisting of films from throughout the region that have not necessarily had wide-scale distribution or reached international audiences. Some films from our selection are more well known—The Harder They Come from Jamaica, for example—but other equally well-crafted films like Ava and Gabriel from Curaçao or One People from Suriname have had less recognition. In an effort to provide more exposure to the history of Caribbean filmmaking, we present the following selection of Caribbean Classics.
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#4493

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » April 4th, 2020, 2:43 am

The source for that list is dead. I don't think that's a meaningful source, but I would consider a list covering similar ground from a good source.

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#4494

Post by sol » April 4th, 2020, 2:48 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 2:43 am
The source for that list is dead. I don't think that's a meaningful source, but I would consider a list covering similar ground from a good source.
The source isn't dead, as such. The website has just been moved/renamed: http://cfdb.online/index.php/classics/

Looking at their "who we are" page - http://cfdb.online/index.php/who-we-are/ - they sound very reputable to me.
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#4495

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » April 4th, 2020, 2:57 am

Ah OK, that bumps it up a bit. What a terrible UI that site has, though. I'm trying to see the scope of the database and I get 21 entries per page, which is only 7/8 films since almost every film is in triplicate (once per language) despite the language being chose, and the next button blends into the rest with no sense of how many pages there are and no sorting.
No old films, except the really important ones, is a weird choice for a Db.

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#4496

Post by PGonzalez » April 4th, 2020, 2:59 am

sol wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 2:33 am
Oh, and The Caribbean.

I mean, if we are saying that 40 films is okay for Israel, what about this list?

Caribbean Classics https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/cari ... /ataraxic/
I don't have much to add to the previous discussion, as the most striking gaps have already been pointed out (Argentina, Denmark and Maxico), but this is an excellent list to bring attention to sol! I'd be 100% in favor of adopting this one.

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#4497

Post by mjf314 » April 4th, 2020, 3:01 am

sol wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 2:48 am
PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 2:43 am
The source for that list is dead. I don't think that's a meaningful source, but I would consider a list covering similar ground from a good source.
The source isn't dead, as such. The website has just been moved/renamed: http://cfdb.online/index.php/classics/

Looking at their "who we are" page - http://cfdb.online/index.php/who-we-are/ - they sound very reputable to me.
Do you know how many of the films are available with English subs?

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#4498

Post by sol » April 4th, 2020, 3:22 am

mjf314 wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 3:01 am
sol wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 2:48 am
PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 2:43 am
The source for that list is dead. I don't think that's a meaningful source, but I would consider a list covering similar ground from a good source.
The source isn't dead, as such. The website has just been moved/renamed: http://cfdb.online/index.php/classics/

Looking at their "who we are" page - http://cfdb.online/index.php/who-we-are/ - they sound very reputable to me.
Do you know how many of the films are available with English subs?
Not off-hand, but I would guess that at least three quarters are available with English subs - or were filmed in English. There are a few films from Guyana on the list, which (as former British Guiana) has English as their official language. There are also quite a few films from Trinidad and Tobago on the list that were filmed in English. Stuff like Wan Pipel and Nueba Yol can also be found subbed on YT since that's how I watched them for last year's Latin America + Caribbean Challenge.
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#4499

Post by sol » April 4th, 2020, 3:23 am

PGonzalez wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 2:59 am
sol wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 2:33 am
Oh, and The Caribbean.

I mean, if we are saying that 40 films is okay for Israel, what about this list?

Caribbean Classics https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/cari ... /ataraxic/
I don't have much to add to the previous discussion, as the most striking gaps have already been pointed out (Argentina, Denmark and Maxico), but this is an excellent list to bring attention to sol! I'd be 100% in favor of adopting this one.
:cheers: As alluded to above, this list was a great starting point for me during last year's Latin American + Caribbean Official Challenge.
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#4500

Post by Onderhond » April 4th, 2020, 7:23 am

beavis wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 10:35 pm
zuma wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 10:12 pm
That Japan Academy Prize is almost as bad as the Japan list we currently have.

Hopefully, if the mods ever get around to Japan again they will adopt Donald Richie’s 100 years of Japanese film.

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/dona ... htysparks/

It has 60 favourites and no dislikes, is from a famous critic, based on a list from his book, and is the best list of Japanese films I have seen. Should have been official years ago IMO.
He limited his list to availabiliy of the movies on home video, which makes it less atractive...
+ it stops in 2004 ...

But uhm, just tack on Schilling's 21st century list and I'm Zenzen Daijobu.

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#4501

Post by frbrown » April 4th, 2020, 10:27 pm

ChrisReynolds wrote:
April 2nd, 2020, 9:34 pm
All new official films only appear on a single one of these lists.


TSPDT's 1,000 Greatest Films: 1001-2000

834Eniaios (2004)http://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/eniaios/0

This should also be added to the Sight & Sound list, right?

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#4502

Post by joachimt » April 5th, 2020, 6:03 am

frbrown wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 10:27 pm
ChrisReynolds wrote:
April 2nd, 2020, 9:34 pm
All new official films only appear on a single one of these lists.


TSPDT's 1,000 Greatest Films: 1001-2000

834Eniaios (2004)http://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/eniaios/0

This should also be added to the Sight & Sound list, right?
I'm sure you're right, but I'm not sure where to put it. PeacefulAnarchy probably knows better. Can you take a look, PA?
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#4503

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » April 5th, 2020, 6:15 am

Yes I keep forgetting.

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#4504

Post by xianjiro » April 5th, 2020, 7:40 am

joachimt wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 6:03 am
frbrown wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 10:27 pm
ChrisReynolds wrote:
April 2nd, 2020, 9:34 pm
All new official films only appear on a single one of these lists.


TSPDT's 1,000 Greatest Films: 1001-2000

834Eniaios (2004)http://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/eniaios/0

This should also be added to the Sight & Sound list, right?
I'm sure you're right, but I'm not sure where to put it. PeacefulAnarchy probably knows better. Can you take a look, PA?
I see you chose your words carefully. :folded: "put it" not "stick it" :lol:

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#4505

Post by Tasselfoot » April 17th, 2020, 3:23 pm

Howdy y'all. Been gone for like 18 months, but getting back into film. Was looking at lists, enjoying some of the new additions. Also curious if any work has gone into trying to replace or update some sorely outdated lists?

Geoff King's Film Comedy is 18 years old
Marshall Julius' Action book is 23 years old
Magyar Művészeti Akadémia's Hungarian Films is 26 years old [and i get that it's actually 8 years old, but wtf they didn't pick a single film released within 18 years of the poll??]

there are probably other examples, too.

Time Out and BBC both have top 100 comedy lists (2020 and 2017 respectively). Rotten Tomatoes has 150 essential comedy films.
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/time ... s/mochard/
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/201708 ... f-all-time

Time Out (2019) and Rotten Tomatoes have top 100 action lists.
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/time ... norroboto/
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/top/best ... re_movies/

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#4506

Post by Onderhond » April 17th, 2020, 3:28 pm

As much as I dislike many of the movies in the Marshall Julius' Action book list, it seems so much better than the Time Out and RT alternatives. RT in particular seems like a complete mismatch, TO is mostly just some the same old recycled pool of films. At least the MJA list seems actually geared at hardcore action fans.

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#4507

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » April 17th, 2020, 3:35 pm

BBC's Comedy list is official and has been for some time. https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/bbcs ... +all+time/

Yes those are things we're looking at, but we can't magically make lists appear. Replacements of those lists would have to be somewhat similar in scope, which your examples aren't. I've said before about the time out action list that while it may get adopted, like the BBC comedy list it would be along side the current list, not as a replacement. Not that I wouldn't love a replacement, but the replacement should be a more current list with a similar scope, maybe a bit less focus on 80s schlock but not an absence of it.

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#4508

Post by Tasselfoot » April 17th, 2020, 3:38 pm

Thanks. Forgot that BBC list was official because it's been a plat since it came out.

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#4509

Post by dirty_score » April 17th, 2020, 3:45 pm

They just recenty added BBC's comedy list and I agree with "As much as I dislike many of the movies in the Marshall Julius' Action book list, it seems so much better than the Time Out and RT alternatives". I actually been taking the quarantine time to slowly work my bronze (something that I was against) and by carefully selecting the few movies I need to see (usually 70's/80's/90's), I actually been having a fun time. :circle:

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#4510

Post by OldAle1 » April 17th, 2020, 3:54 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 3:28 pm
As much as I dislike many of the movies in the Marshall Julius' Action book list, it seems so much better than the Time Out and RT alternatives. RT in particular seems like a complete mismatch, TO is mostly just some the same old recycled pool of films. At least the MJA list seems actually geared at hardcore action fans.
More or less agree. I just haven't seen a good large or largish (at least 200 titles) list that is (somewhat) up-to-date, varied, hits East Asia just as well as Europe and the Americas, and makes room for at least a few interesting and not-so-obvious titles alongside the inevitable Seven Samurai, Die Hard, John Woo and James Bond films.

Same story with a lot of genre and country lists, unfortunately.

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#4511

Post by Teproc » April 17th, 2020, 4:23 pm

The Action list we currently have is very specific, but I think it fullfils its mission quite well of catering to that particular genre, I certainly don't think it needs to be replaced at all. Adding another action list with a broader scope could be interesting I suppose, especially one that covers more recent additions.

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#4512

Post by xianjiro » April 17th, 2020, 6:08 pm

Agreed with the action comments - for me, I just wish he'd update the book with titles since! Seems like an awful lot has happened.

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#4513

Post by mjf314 » April 21st, 2020, 2:49 pm

Should we replace the Livejournal Russian List? Please let us know what you think.

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#4514

Post by AdamH » April 21st, 2020, 3:11 pm

Sounds like it should be replaced although I think some people will start getting irritated by official lists being removed. I think it's happened to a few by now?

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#4515

Post by Tasselfoot » April 21st, 2020, 3:33 pm

Looks like the Empire list is from 2008. No similarly suitable list from the past few years? Apart from that, seems fine.

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#4516

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » April 21st, 2020, 3:42 pm

Tasselfoot wrote:
April 21st, 2020, 3:33 pm
Looks like the Empire list is from 2008. No similarly suitable list from the past few years? Apart from that, seems fine.
We can't find any but ideally someone would find a list that is clearly better and newer and we don't have doubts about it.

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#4517

Post by sol » April 21st, 2020, 3:43 pm

mjf314 wrote:
April 21st, 2020, 2:49 pm
Should we replace the Livejournal Russian List? Please let us know what you think.
Already said as much on the other forum, but props for giving us a say. :worship: It was disappointing not having the option to discuss things when IndieWire was replaced.

I like the Empire list myself since it's more recent than the Livejournal list and has a lot more recent films.
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#4518

Post by sol » April 21st, 2020, 3:46 pm

AdamH wrote:
April 21st, 2020, 3:11 pm
Sounds like it should be replaced although I think some people will start getting irritated by official lists being removed. I think it's happened to a few by now?
I think the irritation only comes when the unadoptions come as surprises. Having polls and discussions like this before removing something like IndieWire or the old Italian list is the way to go. :thumbsup:
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
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WalterNeff
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#4519

Post by WalterNeff » April 21st, 2020, 4:00 pm

I'd only lose one check, so no problem from me

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#4520

Post by dirty_score » April 21st, 2020, 4:01 pm

I voted not replaced, but removed.

But maybe it can be replaced by https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mini ... ls/mjf314/

Only checkwhores caring for gamification are going to cry about! But if you're in for gamification, you should be excited if a list is removed or replaced because it creates more exciting challenges!

What about Total Sci-Fi's The 100 Greatest Sci-Fi Movies, OFCS's Top 100 Animated Features of All Time, OFCS's Top 100 Animated Features of All Time?

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