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New Official List Discussion

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Re: New Official List Discussion

#4321

Post by OldAle1 » March 17th, 2020, 1:59 pm

erde wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 1:57 pm
Gershwin wrote:
March 16th, 2020, 10:40 pm
Well, one of my country lists is going to be adopted. Could have been long time ago.
The name of the "Maariv's Best Israeli Films of All Time" top list has been converted to the new naming system of the official lists. Just saying... ;)
Cool. I'd have marginally preferred the Filipino list but those are the two countries I most wanted to see with official lists that had none, so it's a good start.

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#4322

Post by erde » March 17th, 2020, 2:04 pm

Other lists with recently changed names (and recently added apostrophes tehe ) might be good candidates for the remaining two new lists...
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#4323

Post by sol » March 17th, 2020, 2:20 pm

I don't know if the renaming of lists is really a sign of things to come. If it is, I'm happy about the Israeli list.

I'm pretty devastated, disappointed and confused about Oscar Best Documentary though - which has not been renamed. This is a list that polled the 5th highest when the poll was run. It is also a list that would have a lot of interest from average movie buffs, given the prestige of the Oscars and all. And the poll results reflect that interest among iCM users. I guess though where the confusion begins for me is Academy Award Foreign International Nominees and Cinematography Winners being Official while Documentary winners remain Unofficial. I don't understand how that makes any sense at all.
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#4324

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 17th, 2020, 2:33 pm

sol wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 2:20 pm
. I guess though where the confusion begins for me is Academy Award Foreign International Nominees being Official while Documentary winners remain Unofficial. I don't understand how that makes any sense at all.
It doesn't make sense, but in the other direction, neither should be official. Not for the subject matter but because the nomination process for both is layer upon layer of bad explicitly arbitrary decisions. The docs list suffers from also having a much more restricted field so the voters can't save the end result as often as they can on foreign film.

If it gets adopted (not in this batch but I wouldn't rule it out long term) it'll be solely because of the brand name not the list quality.

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#4325

Post by erde » March 17th, 2020, 2:42 pm

TSPDT 1001-2000 list also has a changed name/url, so I think that if a list's name is not converted to the current naming practice at this point, it will not be adopted on this round. No other new films on the adpotion poll have changed names/urls either.
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#4326

Post by sol » March 17th, 2020, 2:44 pm

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 2:33 pm
If it gets adopted (not in this batch but I wouldn't rule it out long term) it'll be solely because of the brand name not the list quality.
Well, sure. I wouldn't regard it as the strongest documentary list out there - but I think it's an important list in the whole film buff sphere, the same way that the Oscar Best Picture Winners list is an important list despite some very dubious choices.

Still a bit confused about the whole poll results thing. I don't know; maybe I just won't vote next time we have a poll; it's doing my head in at the moment and there is too much other stuff going on in real life with Covid-19 and all to try to get my head around why we had the poll in the first place. Sorry, I don't mean to sound bitchy. Just disappointed. I really thought that there was enough support/interest out there.
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#4327

Post by erde » March 17th, 2020, 3:00 pm

erde wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 2:42 pm
TSPDT 1001-2000 list also has a changed name/url, so I think that if a list's name is not converted to the current naming practice at this point, it will not be adopted on this round. No other new films on the adpotion poll have changed names/urls either.
However, at least Cannes Jury Prize list already previously had a name that was compatible with the current naming system. Some others might, too, I have not checked systematically.

I wouldn't hold my breath with the Cannes list, though (although I myself am very much in favour of it becoming official).
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#4328

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 17th, 2020, 3:49 pm

I don't recall what else besides the Israeli and tspdt lists is being adopted, and too can't check right now, but I think there's one that hasn't been renamed yet.

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#4329

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 17th, 2020, 3:57 pm

sol wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 2:44 pm
Still a bit confused about the whole poll results thing.
The poll is a guide, not a determinative thing. It has absolutely influenced adoptions a lot. The Cannes Grand Prix is an obvious example of a list we had considered and rejected before the poll and reconsidered and adopted afterwards, another such list is being adopted in this batch, others have maybe not been as stark but it influences discussions and adoptions a lot. With the poll the Oscar's doc list is considered, before the poll it was a straight no. I still currently disagree with it being adopted, but I've softened my stance on it, I don't know where others are at with it. Even if it doesn't get adopted the poll has given it consideration it wasn't getting before.

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#4330

Post by Knaldskalle » March 17th, 2020, 4:56 pm

sol wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 2:20 pm
I'm pretty devastated, disappointed and confused about Oscar Best Documentary though - which has not been renamed. This is a list that polled the 5th highest when the poll was run. It is also a list that would have a lot of interest from average movie buffs, given the prestige of the Oscars and all. And the poll results reflect that interest among iCM users. I guess though where the confusion begins for me is Academy Award Foreign International Nominees and Cinematography Winners being Official while Documentary winners remain Unofficial. I don't understand how that makes any sense at all.
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#4331

Post by Fergenaprido » March 17th, 2020, 6:25 pm

Knaldskalle wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 4:56 pm
sol wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 2:20 pm
I'm pretty devastated, disappointed and confused about Oscar Best Documentary though - which has not been renamed. This is a list that polled the 5th highest when the poll was run. It is also a list that would have a lot of interest from average movie buffs, given the prestige of the Oscars and all. And the poll results reflect that interest among iCM users. I guess though where the confusion begins for me is Academy Award Foreign International Nominees and Cinematography Winners being Official while Documentary winners remain Unofficial. I don't understand how that makes any sense at all.
videoShow
And back then there wasn't even a documentary branch of the academy; it was a special committee that selected the nominees, making it even more exclusive and idiosyncratic.The documentary branch was created in 2001, and some member of the directors, editors, and at-large branches moved to the new one.

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#4332

Post by joachimt » March 17th, 2020, 6:54 pm

I asked some list owners to rename their list. Gershwin wasn't one of them.
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#4333

Post by erde » March 17th, 2020, 7:29 pm

joachimt wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 6:54 pm
I asked some list owners to rename their list. Gershwin wasn't one of them.
Ok, so I just guessed it from the formulation of the Israeli list's title, after having seen that the title of the TSPDT 1001-2000 list had been changed to fit the new practice, and supposing that the titles of the other adopted lists would be fixed as well. :)
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#4334

Post by sol » March 18th, 2020, 9:54 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 3:57 pm
I've softened my stance on it, I don't know where others are at with it. Even if it doesn't get adopted the poll has given it consideration it wasn't getting before.
Okay, that's good to know.
Fergenaprido wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 6:25 pm
Knaldskalle wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 4:56 pm
sol wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 2:20 pm
I'm pretty devastated, disappointed and confused about Oscar Best Documentary though - which has not been renamed. This is a list that polled the 5th highest when the poll was run. It is also a list that would have a lot of interest from average movie buffs, given the prestige of the Oscars and all. And the poll results reflect that interest among iCM users. I guess though where the confusion begins for me is Academy Award Foreign International Nominees and Cinematography Winners being Official while Documentary winners remain Unofficial. I don't understand how that makes any sense at all.
videoShow
And back then there wasn't even a documentary branch of the academy; it was a special committee that selected the nominees, making it even more exclusive and idiosyncratic.The documentary branch was created in 2001, and some member of the directors, editors, and at-large branches moved to the new one.
That's not the issue. I agree that the process for determining the Documentary winners and nominees is incredibly flawed, but the same can be said about the Foreign Language Film category, with the heavily flawed process leading to such inconsistencies such as Talk to Her being nominated for Best Director and winning Best Screenplay without a FLF nomination.

As Peaceful has agreed above, it's just very weird and senseless for iCM to promote the Foreign Language Film nominees without also promoting the Documentary winners. But I am pleased at the possibility of this being rectified in the future given that there is a lot of public interest in the list.
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#4335

Post by erde » March 24th, 2020, 4:11 pm

Some little clues about the other two new lists for the impatient? Another country list? A decade list for the 10s? The long-awaited pre-code list? :)
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#4336

Post by Tim2460 » March 25th, 2020, 10:07 am

I may include next list to be adopted for the next 3+ Film List.

TSPDT 1001-2000 (this will boost the number of film in 3+ !)
An Israeli List

then ?

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#4337

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 25th, 2020, 6:35 pm

Black Film Canon. Don't recall the other one.

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#4338

Post by erde » March 25th, 2020, 7:13 pm

Great, I like it! :banana:

Thank you for the info! Who remembers the last one...?
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#4339

Post by dirty_score » March 25th, 2020, 8:19 pm

This Black Film Canon: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/slat ... /monoglot/

or

Expanding the Black Film Canon, a 2019 book by Lisa Doris Alexander: https://kansaspress.ku.edu/978-0-7006-2840-7.html ?

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#4340

Post by beavis » March 25th, 2020, 8:25 pm

One of these two is a list

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#4341

Post by mjf314 » March 25th, 2020, 8:52 pm

Slate's Black Film Canon.

I hadn't heard of Expanding the Black Film Canon. Do you know if there's a list in the book?

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#4342

Post by beasterne » March 25th, 2020, 11:57 pm

Yes! I love this for a list, glad it’s being adopted :)

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#4343

Post by dirty_score » March 26th, 2020, 11:52 am

mjf314 wrote:
March 25th, 2020, 8:52 pm
Slate's Black Film Canon.

I hadn't heard of Expanding the Black Film Canon. Do you know if there's a list in the book?
can't seem to find any information about it :(

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#4344

Post by Tim2460 » March 26th, 2020, 12:42 pm

It's just a trial :

Done! File ifinaltemp.txt contains 15898 movie entries (from 202 input csvs).

--> 199 + TSPDT + black Canon + Israélian list makes a few (28) new official movies :

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083584/ Ashes and Embers 1982
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099800/ House Party 1990
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100168/ Mo' Better Blues 1990
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104575/ Just Another Girl on the I.R.T. 1992
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110091/ I Like It Like That 1994
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0406265/ Their Eyes Were Watching God 2005
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1133989/ Medicine for Melancholy 2008
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0775543/ Night Catches Us 2010
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1211890/ Middle of Nowhere 2012
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3704352/ Bessie 2015
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068890/ Le'an Ne'elam Daniel Wax? 1974
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1002765/ Hofshat Kaits 2007
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065076/ Te'alat Blaumilch 1969
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0398713/ Atash 2004
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092678/ Blues Lahofesh Hagadol 1988
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099565/ Nisuim Fiktiveem 1988
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079430/ Ha-Lahaka 1978
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070319/ Or Min Hahefker 1973
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112665/ Hole Ahava B'Shikun Gimel 1995
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0149396/ Za'am V'Tehilah 1985
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090698/ Bar 51 1985
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104414/ Hessed Mufla 1992
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1260396/ Shiva 2008
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076525/ Masa Alunkot 1980
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111140/ Sh'Chur 1994
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0426213/ Shnat Effes 2004
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10923778/ Eniaios 2004
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318635/ Rocker 1972

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#4345

Post by erde » March 28th, 2020, 6:30 am

About Eniaios becoming an official check: Technically, it should be an official check already, because it meets the criteria of our Sight & Sound list (3 votes in the critics poll). However, I think that it should not be an official check on either of the lists, because it is simply unfinished: only half of it has been made and screened so far, and we cannot be sure if the critics who voted for the film in the poll have even seen the same parts of it. (It would be different if all of the critics would have specifically voted for the Order I, for example. Now, one of the critics specifies that he has seen "all of Order II and Order V, and about half of Order III", while the other two do not say anything about it.) That is why, in my opinion, the film should be excluded from both the S&S list (like it currently is) and the SPDT 1001-2000 list. There should just be a mention about it in the list descriptions.
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#4346

Post by jeroeno » March 28th, 2020, 6:53 am

Yeah I completely agree. This is like making Avatar 2, 3 and 4 official checks because some guy saw the first Avatar and decided he would like the rest of the series so much he just had to put them on the list. Or even just put all future Marvel movies on the Box Office list because we already know they will make a billion dollar each.

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#4347

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 28th, 2020, 7:05 am

On the one hand I absolutely hate that Eniaios is there and did my best to pretend it doesn't exist for a long time (7+ years!, time flies). On the other hand we don't take out lost films (or do we? I don't remember any more) so availability isn't a criteria and it's on the lists so it doesn't seem right to exclude it because we disagree with the voters.

On a vaguely related note, Hababam Sinifi (the one that used to be on a bunch of lists, not the original) will be back on a couple of imdb lists soon as it passed 1500 checks.

Oh and the other new list is BFI's Euro Horror I think.

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#4348

Post by joachimt » March 28th, 2020, 7:11 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 7:05 am
we don't take out lost films (or do we? I don't remember any more)
We don't indeed.
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#4349

Post by jeroeno » March 28th, 2020, 7:18 am

* never mind. I forgot posting here was useless :facepalm:

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#4350

Post by erde » March 28th, 2020, 7:38 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 7:05 am
On the one hand I absolutely hate that Eniaios is there and did my best to pretend it doesn't exist for a long time (7+ years!, time flies). On the other hand we don't take out lost films (or do we? I don't remember any more) so availability isn't a criteria and it's on the lists so it doesn't seem right to exclude it because we disagree with the voters.

On a vaguely related note, Hababam Sinifi (the one that used to be on a bunch of lists, not the original) will be back on a couple of imdb lists soon as it passed 1500 checks.
I understand what you say about availability and lost films. But at least those films were finished and released before they were lost and someone in the world had a chance to see them. Eniaios is simply not finished yet. It feels like including 70 UP, 77 UP, 84 UP, 91 UP and 98 UP in the Ebert list.

Of course this would not be a problem if S&S had some outspoken and monitored criteria in the poll (and the voters would behave themselves).

What's with Hababam Sinifi? I'm unfamiliar with it. Is it a half-finished 80-hour film too? :P
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#4351

Post by funkybusiness » March 28th, 2020, 7:42 am

nah, just everybody hates hababam. it was one of the original icm forums memes. before memes were even a thing.

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#4352

Post by erde » March 28th, 2020, 7:44 am

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 7:05 am
Oh and the other new list is BFI's Euro Horror I think.
Thanks for this info! Can someone confirm? The list title does not have the apostrophes yet. tehe
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#4353

Post by erde » March 28th, 2020, 7:50 am

funkybusiness wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 7:42 am
nah, just everybody hates hababam. it was one of the original icm forums memes. before memes were even a thing.
Oh! This aroused my curiosity... :lol:
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#4354

Post by AdamH » March 28th, 2020, 7:58 am

erde wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 7:50 am
funkybusiness wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 7:42 am
nah, just everybody hates hababam. it was one of the original icm forums memes. before memes were even a thing.
Oh! This aroused my curiosity... :lol:
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#4355

Post by erde » March 28th, 2020, 8:51 am

:lol:

By the way, I wonder why the original Hababam is not on a buch of IMDb lists. It has an average rating of 9.4 (!) and 35 130 ratings in total according to its IMDb page. The second part in the series seems to have a rating average of 9.0 and 20 445 ratings in total. Even the third and fourth part have a rating average higher than 8.5 and more than 15 000 ratings according to their IMDb pages.

Seems like an interesting phenomenon... :satstunned:
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#4356

Post by Mothravka » March 28th, 2020, 9:07 am

erde wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 8:51 am
:lol:

By the way, I wonder why the original Hababam is not on a buch of IMDb lists. It has an average rating of 9.4 (!) and 35 130 ratings in total according to its IMDb page. The second part in the series seems to have a rating average of 9.0 and 20 445 ratings in total. Even the third and fourth part have a rating average higher than 8.5 and more than 15 000 ratings according to their IMDb pages.

Seems like an interesting phenomenon... :satstunned:
Probably because the votes that are counted are only the ones from so called regular IMDb voters.

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#4357

Post by Onderhond » March 28th, 2020, 9:22 am

Because we generally don't see how our own crap resembles crap from other cultures. That's why people complain so much about all the Hollywood films in the IMDb 250.

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#4358

Post by joachimt » March 28th, 2020, 9:23 am

erde wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 8:51 am
:lol:

By the way, I wonder why the original Hababam is not on a buch of IMDb lists. It has an average rating of 9.4 (!) and 35 130 ratings in total according to its IMDb page. The second part in the series seems to have a rating average of 9.0 and 20 445 ratings in total. Even the third and fourth part have a rating average higher than 8.5 and more than 15 000 ratings according to their IMDb pages.

Seems like an interesting phenomenon... :satstunned:
Because the IMDb lists on iCM also have a threshold of checkcount.
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#4359

Post by Teproc » March 28th, 2020, 9:47 am

Onderhond wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 9:22 am
Because we generally don't see how our own crap resembles crap from other cultures. That's why people complain so much about all the Hollywood films in the IMDb 250.
You mean Bollywood right ? I think it's simply that populist entertainment works on, well, most people. That's why it's populist. And since most of the people on IMDB are from Western countries, they pretty logically enjoy populist entertainment aimed at them than what's aimed at other people.

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#4360

Post by Onderhond » March 28th, 2020, 10:13 am

Teproc wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 9:47 am
Onderhond wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 9:22 am
Because we generally don't see how our own crap resembles crap from other cultures. That's why people complain so much about all the Hollywood films in the IMDb 250.
You mean Bollywood right ? I think it's simply that populist entertainment works on, well, most people. That's why it's populist. And since most of the people on IMDB are from Western countries, they pretty logically enjoy populist entertainment aimed at them than what's aimed at other people.
Yes, sorry, typed this on my phone -_-

And sure, people like populist entertainment, but when people from India and Turkey suddenly have enough voters to push their entertainment in the list, Western folks freak out.

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