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New Official List Discussion

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Re: New Official List Discussion

#3921

Post by sol » March 10th, 2019, 2:06 pm

beavis wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 2:00 pm
I joined the team since last summer already, but I want to try to answer more questions in this thread regarding lists adoptions on ICM
Especially now we've started preparing the next round (don't get exited, very early days yet ;))
:woot:

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#3922

Post by Lilarcor » March 10th, 2019, 2:28 pm

beavis wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 10:23 pm
The current "rules" for selecting lists have evolved from a very loose beginning. Therefore there are official lists on ICM that wouldn't be adopted now, following the current criteria. This might give rise to some confusion about what kind of lists are welcome and what kind of list aren't. A few moderators, including me as the latest addition, have been given the task to curate the adoptions and set some criteria on how to best go about this. In general we are looking for lists that add something new, this has got nothing to do with new official checks. That is not our goal, and we do not take the amount of new official checks a list might bring or not into consideration at all. We have done a big user-poll twice now and this gives valuable information for us. The actual selection of which lists to adopt is something done periodically (we are aiming for twice a year now, after a relatively slow/confused period) via discusssion amongs ourselves. With each round we try to bring a set of lists that should cover a broad spectrum of interest (popular, arthouse, genre and so on).

When we are judging a list on acceptability we are looking for the following:
- a list should have a good source. something that is publicised in print or on-line media
- the source must have a credibility that goes beyond mere fandom
- the length of the list should be in proportion to the topic that is covered
- if a topic is popular it does warrant multiple lists, but each list should have a distinct approach (for a country for instance there could in theory be a national award list, a poll, a list from a single critic and even a box-office list). We also try to bring shorter lists for a beginner or casual interest level and, if the topic warrants it, longer lists for those who want to delve deeper.
- we strongly prefer lists that are updated and kept current to completely static lists when it comes to evolving topics like genre and countries

What we do not like anymore are:
- lists taken from a book or documentary with "every movie mentioned", because those lists are lacking in context
- lists with every movie nominated for a festival/award
- distributer lists (for instance dvd-label lists)

I'm sure I have forgotten some details, and I might not have expressed everything eloquently enough, so other mods feel free to correct and supplement
But I hope I have given some kind of consise overview on our approach and the things we take into consideration when looking for and judging lists for adoption to ICM
:thumbsup: Perhaps this post should be pinned somewhere?

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#3923

Post by Cippenham » March 10th, 2019, 2:38 pm

When you have the best list which is TSPDT as it has so many sources, but the 2nd thousand is not an official list, there will always be something wrong for me.

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#3924

Post by Onderhond » March 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Cippenham wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 2:38 pm
When you have the best list which is TSPDT as it has so many sources
But almost all from the same corner of cinema. Luckily there isn't something like the objectively best list out there.

And if headcounts matter, IMDb is probably more important than TSPDT.

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#3925

Post by fori » March 10th, 2019, 4:57 pm

Indian top 250 when?!!

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#3926

Post by Teproc » March 10th, 2019, 5:00 pm

Onderhond wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm
Cippenham wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 2:38 pm
When you have the best list which is TSPDT as it has so many sources
But almost all from the same corner of cinema. Luckily there isn't something like the objectively best list out there.

And if headcounts matter, IMDb is probably more important than TSPDT.
By that logic, we should have way more than two box-office lists (maybe we should).

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#3927

Post by Cippenham » March 10th, 2019, 5:46 pm

Box office is just vox populi but TSPDT is based on many critics and experts, like comparing chart music to Mozart

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#3928

Post by Gershwin » March 10th, 2019, 6:21 pm

beavis wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 2:00 pm
I joined the team since last summer already, but I want to try to answer more questions in this thread regarding lists adoptions on ICM
Especially now we've started preparing the next round (don't get exited, very early days yet ;))
Very good! I hope you guys have set very strict deadlines for yourselves this time, that don't depend on a single point of failure, so we won't have to wait till 2020. ;)
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#3929

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 10th, 2019, 6:24 pm

Gershwin wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:21 pm
beavis wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 2:00 pm
I joined the team since last summer already, but I want to try to answer more questions in this thread regarding lists adoptions on ICM
Especially now we've started preparing the next round (don't get exited, very early days yet ;))
Very good! I hope you guys have set very strict deadlines for yourselves this time, that don't depend on a single point of failure, so we won't have to wait till 2020. ;)
There's always a single point of success at the implementation stage.

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#3930

Post by hurluberlu » March 10th, 2019, 6:58 pm

beavis wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 11:14 am
as you might have noticed there is a large resistence against removing lists :)
we are not going to retro-actively purge ICM with new rules (current opinions rather) in mind, don't worry (or sorry, depending on your point of view)

we cannot exclude there might be a few more replacements in the future or an even rarer pruning when an official list would become entirely obsolete (and the collection so bulky that the pruning would make sense to bring more clarity and shape to it all). we are entirely free to do so (although Marijn always keeps a final say of course), but are ourselfs also mostly against removing lists that a lot of users are working with, happy with and so on.
If lists are constantly being added because of popular demand, I would suggest they should be sorted/presented in a more appealing way: being confronted to a page of 200 official lists doesnt really help new users or facilitate discoveries. Categories (directors, website,...) for example could be extended and available from the main menu.
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#3931

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 10th, 2019, 7:01 pm

hurluberlu wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:58 pm
beavis wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 11:14 am
as you might have noticed there is a large resistence against removing lists :)
we are not going to retro-actively purge ICM with new rules (current opinions rather) in mind, don't worry (or sorry, depending on your point of view)

we cannot exclude there might be a few more replacements in the future or an even rarer pruning when an official list would become entirely obsolete (and the collection so bulky that the pruning would make sense to bring more clarity and shape to it all). we are entirely free to do so (although Marijn always keeps a final say of course), but are ourselfs also mostly against removing lists that a lot of users are working with, happy with and so on.
If lists are constantly being added because of popular demand, I would suggest they should be sorted/presented in a more appealing way: being confronted to a page of 200 official lists doesnt really help new users or facilitate discoveries. Categories (directors, website,...) for example could be extended and available from the main menu.
I absolutely agree.

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#3932

Post by Gershwin » March 10th, 2019, 7:02 pm

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Gershwin wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:21 pm
beavis wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 2:00 pm
I joined the team since last summer already, but I want to try to answer more questions in this thread regarding lists adoptions on ICM
Especially now we've started preparing the next round (don't get exited, very early days yet ;))
Very good! I hope you guys have set very strict deadlines for yourselves this time, that don't depend on a single point of failure, so we won't have to wait till 2020. ;)
There's always a single point of success at the implementation stage.
If you mean Marijn managing certain things: sure, I understand that. If you're just being a bit cynical: sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. It's just that I had the impression that during the last adoption and voting round you guys, well, didn't seem to have a very strict timetable. :turned:
And to be honest I'm really convinced almost any delay can be prevented by strict deadlines (when making democratic decisions) and a well-balanced sharing of tasks and responsibilities (to prevent that all depends on one person, who can get ill or can have other very good reasons to not deliver what was initially planned in time).
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#3933

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 10th, 2019, 7:11 pm

Gershwin wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 7:02 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Gershwin wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:21 pm


Very good! I hope you guys have set very strict deadlines for yourselves this time, that don't depend on a single point of failure, so we won't have to wait till 2020. ;)
There's always a single point of success at the implementation stage.
If you mean Marijn managing certain things: sure, I understand that.
Yeah that's what I meant, in the end he has to implement things and things can come up both in his life and on the site. But yes our own organization along the process needs some work, I think that part is being taken care of.

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#3934

Post by Gershwin » March 10th, 2019, 8:46 pm

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 7:11 pm
I think that part is being taken care of.
:thumbsup:
Then I'll stop meddling. :)
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#3935

Post by xianjiro » March 10th, 2019, 11:15 pm

fori wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 4:57 pm
Indian top 250 when?!!
:thumbsup: IMDb's Top Rated Indian Movies

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#3936

Post by xianjiro » March 10th, 2019, 11:18 pm

Gershwin wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 8:46 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 7:11 pm
I think that part is being taken care of.
:thumbsup:
Then I'll stop meddling. :)
"less meddling, more medaling" :thumbsup:

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#3937

Post by nimimerkillinen » March 11th, 2019, 2:50 pm

beavis wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 11:14 am
we cannot exclude there might be a few more replacements in the future or an even rarer pruning when an official list would become entirely obsolete (and the collection so bulky that the pruning would make sense to bring more clarity and shape to it all). we are entirely free to do so (although Marijn always keeps a final say of course), but are ourselfs also mostly against removing lists that a lot of users are working with, happy with and so on.
i dont get the pruning part, there are so few lists official so it seems more like organizing thing

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#3938

Post by Ebbywebby » March 11th, 2019, 9:27 pm

beavis wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 10:23 pm
In general we are looking for lists that add something new, this has got nothing to do with new official checks. That is not our goal, and we do not take the amount of new official checks a list might bring or not into consideration at all.
This utterly disgusts me.

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#3939

Post by Nathan Treadway » March 11th, 2019, 9:56 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 9:27 pm
beavis wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 10:23 pm
In general we are looking for lists that add something new, this has got nothing to do with new official checks. That is not our goal, and we do not take the amount of new official checks a list might bring or not into consideration at all.
This utterly disgusts me.
Why? The number of films gaining "official" status should be of the least priority. Naturally, if you are going to go for lists that have missing themes or underrepresented countries, there's going to be a handful of unofficial checks on those lists.

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#3940

Post by WalterNeff » March 12th, 2019, 12:53 am

I take into consideration the number of new official checks. I am a minority of one. I will fight for all of us checkmongers and pre-coders.

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#3941

Post by erde » March 13th, 2019, 5:22 am

I think that the site could use one or two new action lists (for example the ones in the poll). The current non-IMDB action list is problematic, because even the author of the list seems to think that more than 60 percent of the movies in it range from mediocre to crap (https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/acti ... movie+a-z/).
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#3942

Post by maxwelldeux » March 13th, 2019, 6:30 am

erde wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 5:22 am
I think that the site could use one or two new action lists (for example the ones in the poll). The current non-IMDB action list is problematic, because even the author of the list seems to think that more than 60 percent of the movies in it range from mediocre to crap (https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/acti ... movie+a-z/).
Which is precisely what I love about that list - it allows me to pick a film near the top and compare it to a film near the bottom and see the differences in quality. It's not a best list, but an interesting list.

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#3943

Post by erde » March 13th, 2019, 9:11 am

Interesting, I agree, but it still seems to largely contradict the principle that official lists would contain films that are deemed as esthetically or culturally significant. In this case, more than half of the movies on the list is considered as average or bad by the author of the list himself. :down:

It kind of feels like including a list of all the films reviewed by a certain critic, both good and bad reviews.
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#3944

Post by Darth Nevets » March 13th, 2019, 3:31 pm

erde wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 9:11 am
Interesting, I agree, but it still seems to largely contradict the principle that official lists would contain films that are deemed as esthetically or culturally significant. In this case, more than half of the movies on the list is considered as average or bad by the author of the list himself. :down:

It kind of feels like including a list of all the films reviewed by a certain critic, both good and bad reviews.
Genre movies are the type of lists this site most needs, most often overlooks, and struggles to do correctly. The other lists have only 100ish films and cover wider ground in years, making nearly every choice part of an already covered canon that adds nothing to the discussion of film. The Action list covers the genre too minimally, restricting it further only widens the problem. For people who enjoy action movies 250 is insultingly low, and cutting the list would be a disaster. In pure numbers, which people here have not much background in but I digress, the median film has over 2k checks. An obvious indication that large numbers of people are seeing these films, have seen these films and want to check them, and now have an easy way to search out more films in the genre.

Now as to the author's ratings it is their own perspective on the 250 most important action movies, one would scarcely call Mortal Kombat a cinematic classic but it is very important as a piece of action cinema. Being on one list is an adequate place for the movie, despite its shortcomings in other areas. The author's rankings are personal, I admit this is a problem, but every person is unique and will have baffling takes at times. No sane person enjoys Commando as a five star film, it may be closer to a great comedy. Many people maybe could argue for Under Siege as a top 100 action movie, but only a maniac would argue for its sequel (note the author does and only has a .5 star gap between them).

However as controversial as that all may seem, it would still be better than no action list at all. Action is not like teen movies or romantic comedies or slapstick, its a fairly large genre where the 100 best are already honored as parts of a general cinema canon. Such an adoption would be to kill the concept of an action list, negating the inclusion of a genre by fiat. Biases in thinking spell this out obviously, take the noir list which will soon be ten times as big despite being a comparatively miniscule part of cinema. Its median film in checks (a stat sure to fall as the list grows into ever more pedestrian fair) has a tenth of the checks of the action list.

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#3945

Post by mjf314 » March 13th, 2019, 7:26 pm

I think both action lists should be official, a top 100 list as an introduction to the genre, and the A-Z list for people who want to explore further.

I'm not sure what you mean by "part of an already covered canon", but not every iCM user is a cinephile who has watched thousands of films. If you're new to action films and want to get into the genre, the fact that each film happens to be on another official list is not useful. It takes a long time to click every list and filter by genre to find the action films. Even if you do, you won't know which action films are the most essential.

A top 100 is a much more convenient way to introduce yourself to the genre, starting with the most essential action films, and I think the Time Out list is the best introductory list among the available choices.

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#3946

Post by WalterNeff » March 13th, 2019, 8:11 pm

Darth Nevets wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 3:31 pm

Genre movies are the type of lists this site most needs, most often overlooks, and struggles to do correctly. t.
Right, and Pre-Code is a genre sorely needing to be addressed.

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#3947

Post by Wonderful Rainbow » March 13th, 2019, 8:20 pm

This must have been discussed many times before, but anyway - could we have a new category of ICM lists (top 50 decade/genre lists) made on the same principle as the imdb ones, based on how many times they've been favorited on ICM? This would a)solve the Indian mafia problem b)let the forum favorites take over.

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#3948

Post by ChrisReynolds » March 13th, 2019, 9:32 pm

Wonderful Rainbow wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 8:20 pm
This must have been discussed many times before, but anyway - could we have a new category of ICM lists (top 50 decade/genre lists) made on the same principle as the imdb ones, based on how many times they've been favorited on ICM? This would a)solve the Indian mafia problem b)let the forum favorites take over.
It’s been discussed for ages to have the Top 50 lists based on iCM checks, especially as the IMDb lists don’t really exist and have to generated through queries based on iCM check data anyway. It could be done without much effort but there doesn’t seem to be much inclination to do it.

I wouldn’t want to give Marijn more work to do given that we’ve been waiting for iCM 3.0 for years.

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#3949

Post by Wonderful Rainbow » March 13th, 2019, 9:39 pm

Then I just want to let the powers that be know that I am all for this and I will be patiently hoping for this in the background.

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#3950

Post by mjf314 » March 13th, 2019, 9:51 pm

Wonderful Rainbow wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 8:20 pm
This must have been discussed many times before, but anyway - could we have a new category of ICM lists (top 50 decade/genre lists) made on the same principle as the imdb ones, based on how many times they've been favorited on ICM? This would a)solve the Indian mafia problem b)let the forum favorites take over.
It has been suggested several times to make lists based on iCM data, but I'm not sure if Marijn is interested in implementing it.

Here's a spreadsheet with the top films, based on 4 different formulas. Each list can be filtered by decade.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vVj2Al ... qqb-9/view

1. favs^1.25 / (checks+50)
2. favs^1.3 / (checks+50)
3. favs * log(favs)^1.6 / (checks+50)
4. favs * log(favs)^2 / (checks+50)

The spreadsheet includes every film with at least 4 favorites as of June 2017. The favorites and checks data is from November 2018.

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#3951

Post by Wonderful Rainbow » March 13th, 2019, 9:56 pm

How anyone understands how to use spreadsheets and those formulas skips me completely, but thanks I'll take a look.

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#3952

Post by mjf314 » March 13th, 2019, 11:33 pm

Wonderful Rainbow wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 9:56 pm
How anyone understands how to use spreadsheets and those formulas skips me completely, but thanks I'll take a look.
The formulas are already done so you won't have to change them. To see the 4 versions of the list, click the 4 tabs at the bottom. To filter by decade, click the dropdown box in cell I1 and choose a decade.

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#3953

Post by erde » March 14th, 2019, 4:19 pm

Since it's going to be the anniversary of ICM's actual user base soon, I suggest that ICM Forum's top 1000 would be made official as a celebration. :party: I guess that it could also be top 250, so that it would be comparable with IMDB, Reddit and Fokit lists with similar principles.
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#3954

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 14th, 2019, 4:26 pm

erde wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 4:19 pm
Since it's going to be the anniversary of ICM's actual user base soon, I suggest that ICM Forum's top 1000 would be made official as a celebration. :party: I guess that it could also be top 250, so that it would be comparable with IMDB, Reddit and Fokit lists with similar principles.
That's not going to happen. Not saying it shouldn't, just letting you know it won't.

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#3955

Post by Panunzio » March 14th, 2019, 5:45 pm

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 4:26 pm
erde wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 4:19 pm
Since it's going to be the anniversary of ICM's actual user base soon, I suggest that ICM Forum's top 1000 would be made official as a celebration. :party: I guess that it could also be top 250, so that it would be comparable with IMDB, Reddit and Fokit lists with similar principles.
That's not going to happen. Not saying it shouldn't, just letting you know it won't.
Which part? About the forum's 1001 list becoming official for the anniversary, or the list becoming official full stop?

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#3956

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 14th, 2019, 5:51 pm

Panunzio wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 5:45 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 4:26 pm
erde wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 4:19 pm
Since it's going to be the anniversary of ICM's actual user base soon, I suggest that ICM Forum's top 1000 would be made official as a celebration. :party: I guess that it could also be top 250, so that it would be comparable with IMDB, Reddit and Fokit lists with similar principles.
That's not going to happen. Not saying it shouldn't, just letting you know it won't.
Which part? About the forum's 1001 list becoming official for the anniversary, or the list becoming official full stop?
The first. The second is unlikely as well, but things are fluid long term so I wouldn't make any kind of definitive statement about what could happen in a year or two.

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#3957

Post by erde » March 14th, 2019, 7:45 pm

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 4:26 pm
erde wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 4:19 pm
Since it's going to be the anniversary of ICM's actual user base soon, I suggest that ICM Forum's top 1000 would be made official as a celebration. :party: I guess that it could also be top 250, so that it would be comparable with IMDB, Reddit and Fokit lists with similar principles.
That's not going to happen. Not saying it shouldn't, just letting you know it won't.
Strong opposition, eh? :D What is it based on? Just curious.
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#3958

Post by beavis » March 14th, 2019, 8:41 pm

I don't think it is productive for us to publicly weigh al the pros and cons of lists, certainly not this list on this forum, where there obviously will be a lot of people supporting it and willing to argue for it. It is the large support that really made us consider it hard; and you've noticed PA isn't even willing to shut the door on it completely, but at the moment we thought it better to not make it, or other polls done here, an official list on ICM.

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#3959

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 14th, 2019, 8:42 pm

Mostly that we want to move away from those kinds of userbase poll lists, and that it doesn't really bring too much fresh to the table. The usual arguments.

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#3960

Post by erde » March 14th, 2019, 9:01 pm

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 8:42 pm
Mostly that we want to move away from those kinds of userbase poll lists, and that it doesn't really bring too much fresh to the table. The usual arguments.
To me this argument is easy to understand. Like I said, I am just curious about the reasoning behind the decision. Thank you for opening it for discussion! I'm still very new to this forum, and I have not yet had enough time to read all the past discussions, so I am not familiar with the usual arguments. But this discussion has already helped me a lot in finding those out.
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