Welcome to the ICM Forum. If you have an account but have trouble logging in, or have other questions, see THIS THREAD.
NOTE: Board emails should be working again. Information on forum upgrade and style issues.
Podcast: Talking Images (Episode 22 released November 17th * EXCLUSIVE * We Are Mentioned in a Book!!! Interview with Mary Guillermin on Rapture, JG & More)
Polls: Coming of Age (Results), DtC - Ratings (Results), 1933 (May 12th), 1970s (May 29th)
Challenges: Japan, Mystery/Thriller, Western
Film of the Week: Akage, June nominations (May 28th)

New Official List Discussion

Post Reply
mjf314
Moderator
Posts: 11900
Joined: May 8th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#5561

Post by mjf314 »

I haven't seen The Missing Picture, so I didn't realize it was the same theme. In that case I think I'll remove it. It was an arbitrary choice anyway, and The Act of Killing is by far more popular.

I forgot to mention, Kimssi pyoryugi was an example of Korean comedy, but My Sassy Girl is on there as well, so I might remove it if I need to make room for something. The high favorite/check ratio was also part of my reason for including it.
mjf314
Moderator
Posts: 11900
Joined: May 8th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#5562

Post by mjf314 »

I made the following changes:

I replaced Mukhsin with Sepet.
I replaced Green Papaya with Cyclo.
I removed Himalaya.
I removed The Missing Picture.
I added Capernaum.
I added Hababam Sinifi.

I'm not sure if I want to add an Indonesian horror film, because all of them to have pretty low IMDb ratings, and they're not on the TSZDT top 1000, so I'm not sure if it's a good choice for an introduction list.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5469
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#5563

Post by Fergenaprido »

mjf314 wrote: April 10th, 2021, 2:14 am I'm not sure if I want to add an Indonesian horror film, because all of them to have pretty low IMDb ratings, and they're not on the TSZDT top 1000, so I'm not sure if it's a good choice for an introduction list.
I guess that depends on what you want for the list: the best-rated or most-liked of each area you want to cover, or the best example of each area you want to cover? IMDB ratings aren't always useful for underseen films from often ignored regions. Maybe check Douban, since you know how to navigate that site well?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0281048/ is the best of the 13 Indo-horror films from the 78-92 that I've seen (I gave it 6.0, it's 5.6 on imdb), and it seems to be one of the better regarded ones (I found this Paste article about Indo horror).
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078871/ is also better regarded (and 6.1 on imdb), but I haven't seen it yet.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0281241/ is much less seen, but also 6.1 on imdb (I gave it a 5.2).

There is an Indonesian film database, but they don't have a lot of ratings available. That link takes you to the horror filter with 408 films included.

Another article on Indo horror if you'd like.

Oh, and using TSZDT as a reference, I checked out the full list of films. Only a handful of Indo on there, 4 of which fit the era:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097942/ 2273 Leák 1981 H. Tjut Djalil
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095483/ 5971 Pembalasan ratu pantai selatan 1989 H. Tjut Djalil
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078871/ 6054 Ratu ilmu hitam 1983 Liliek Sudjio
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0272063/ 6930 Dangerous Seductress 1995 H. Tjut Djalil

Leák I suppose could work, but my personal preference is to avoid it since the lead is not Indonesian, but it does have some traction here and is more widely seen than the others. Same with Pembalasan (aka Lady Terminator) and Dangerous Seductress. In general, the further on in time, the more reductive the films got, IMO. If I cared anything about horror films, I'd dig up some decent lists to give to mighty for Indo horror... but I just can't be bothered :blush:
mjf314 wrote: April 10th, 2021, 1:57 am I haven't seen The Missing Picture, so I didn't realize it was the same theme. In that case I think I'll remove it. It was an arbitrary choice anyway, and The Act of Killing is by far more popular.

I forgot to mention, Kimssi pyoryugi was an example of Korean comedy, but My Sassy Girl is on there as well, so I might remove it if I need to make room for something. The high favorite/check ratio was also part of my reason for including it.
Yeah, I figured Kimssi covered the same as Sassy, that's why I was confused.

Missing Picture is about the genocide carried out by the Khmer Rouge, Act of Killing (which I haven't seen) is about the genocide carried out by Indonesian government. Act of Killing may be more popular, but I think Missing Picture is a better representative, and Rithy Panh is a fairly well-respected director.
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
mightysparks
Site Admin
Posts: 31425
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#5564

Post by mightysparks »

I'll have a look for Indo horror before I update TSZDT next month or so. I always like trying to fill those gaps.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

iCM | IMDb | LastFM | TSZDT

Image
mjf314
Moderator
Posts: 11900
Joined: May 8th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#5565

Post by mjf314 »

Fergenaprido wrote: April 10th, 2021, 3:40 am I guess that depends on what you want for the list: the best-rated or most-liked of each area you want to cover, or the best example of each area you want to cover? IMDB ratings aren't always useful for underseen films from often ignored regions. Maybe check Douban, since you know how to navigate that site well?
I guess it's a mixture of both. I'm trying to include films that are either acclaimed or popular or representative of an important genre, while also picking films that are well-liked, so I'm willing to pick a slightly less representative film if it's a lot more popular/liked. I think Detective Chinatown is the lowest rated film on the list so far (6.6 on IMDb, but it's 7.7 on Douban).

I just looked up a few of the Indonesian horror films on Douban, and they're pretty obscure on Douban (less than 100 ratings). The easiest way to search for films on Douban is to google <movie_title douban>, and if that doesn't work then <IMDb_id douban>.

Was 80s Indonesian horror popular in its own country? Or was it always a niche genre? I couldn't find any box office information.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5469
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#5566

Post by Fergenaprido »

mjf314 wrote: April 10th, 2021, 4:30 am
Fergenaprido wrote: April 10th, 2021, 3:40 am I guess that depends on what you want for the list: the best-rated or most-liked of each area you want to cover, or the best example of each area you want to cover? IMDB ratings aren't always useful for underseen films from often ignored regions. Maybe check Douban, since you know how to navigate that site well?
I guess it's a mixture of both. I'm trying to include films that are either acclaimed or popular or representative of an important genre, while also picking films that are well-liked, so I'm willing to pick a slightly less representative film if it's a lot more popular/liked. I think Detective Chinatown is the lowest rated film on the list so far (6.6 on IMDb, but it's 7.7 on Douban).

I just looked up a few of the Indonesian horror films on Douban, and they're pretty obscure on Douban (less than 100 ratings). The easiest way to search for films on Douban is to google <movie_title douban>, and if that doesn't work then <IMDb_id douban>.

Was 80s Indonesian horror popular in its own country? Or was it always a niche genre? I couldn't find any box office information.
No worries.

From my understanding it was popular (based only on interactions with film folks when I was in Malaysia and on reviews for the films on Mubi). Horror is massively popular nowadays (I read somewhere that the remake of Satan's Slave was the highest grossing film of the year in 2017), and while box office info pre-2000 is very hard to find, even on Indonesian sites, my general sense is that it was popular. Most of the films were based on local folklore or imitations of Hollywood blockbusters with a local twist. This is the best list I can find for the era, which is based on ticket sales not revenue. Unfortunately, the films listed aren't linked to their entries on the site, which makes it difficult to identify them (or their genre): In that list of 96 films #38 and #39 are the two highest horror films I immediately recognize by title. There are probably higher ranked ones, but it would take me some time since I suspect a bunch of them aren't on imdb yet (A project to work on another day). Comedies do seem to be more popular, however, so maybe my gut feeling is wrong.
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5469
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#5567

Post by Fergenaprido »

mightysparks wrote: April 10th, 2021, 4:17 am I'll have a look for Indo horror before I update TSZDT next month or so. I always like trying to fill those gaps.
I found this list from this site: Around the World in 80 (Horror) Films.

Most of the other ones I came across are really small (5-12 films) or site-specific (streaming on Netflix, etc.), and I don't think you use those types of lists for your aggregate.
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6835
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#5568

Post by Onderhond »

For Kitano I'd pick Hana-bi over Sonatine. I've read many who consider his Venice win a pivotal moment in the flood of interest had we saw for Asian cinema in the 00s, it's also a very solid representative of Kitano's oeuvre.

For Indonasian horror, there's Satan's Slaves. The perk with that one is that there's also a recent remake by Joko Anwar, who is a good spearhead for the modern horror wave happening over there right now. So include the 80s one and people are likely to find out about the recent ones too?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0281048/
User avatar
flavo5000
Posts: 4508
Joined: July 10th, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Arkansas, USA
Contact:

#5569

Post by flavo5000 »

Onderhond wrote: April 10th, 2021, 8:17 am For Kitano I'd pick Hana-bi over Sonatine. I've read many who consider his Venice win a pivotal moment in the flood of interest had we saw for Asian cinema in the 00s, it's also a very solid representative of Kitano's oeuvre.

For Indonasian horror, there's Satan's Slaves. The perk with that one is that there's also a recent remake by Joko Anwar, who is a good spearhead for the modern horror wave happening over there right now. So include the 80s one and people are likely to find out about the recent ones too?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0281048/
Yea for the Indo horror, I would definitely go with either Satan's Slaves or Mystics in Bali. Those are almost certainly the two most well-known and representative of that era (in addition to Lady Terminator). Both are also steeped in Indonesian folklore that make them feel unique to that country, especially Mystics in Bali.
dirty_score
Posts: 578
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 6:00 am
Contact:

#5570

Post by dirty_score »

The Irish Times Best 50 Irish Movies for the 3rd list.

Now, where's me gold?
Last edited by dirty_score on April 12th, 2021, 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6835
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#5571

Post by Onderhond »

dirty_score wrote: April 12th, 2021, 6:18 pm The Irish Times Best 50 Irish Movies for the 3rd list.

Now, where's me gold?
It's at the end of the BFI Flare's The Best LGBTQ+ Films of All Time list.
dirty_score
Posts: 578
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 6:00 am
Contact:

#5572

Post by dirty_score »

Onderhond wrote: April 12th, 2021, 8:02 pm ]
It's at the end of the BFI Flare's The Best LGBTQ+ Films of All Time list.
For some reason, I forgot to link it :facepalm: Fixed it.




@mods When is the due date for the adoption process?
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 2919
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#5573

Post by Torgo »

Onderhond wrote: April 12th, 2021, 8:02 pm
dirty_score wrote: April 12th, 2021, 6:18 pm Now, where's me gold?
It's at the end of the BFI Flare's The Best LGBTQ+ Films of All Time list.
:D
Nathan Treadway
Donator
Posts: 4457
Joined: June 26th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Springfield, MO, USA
Contact:

#5574

Post by Nathan Treadway »

dirty_score wrote: April 12th, 2021, 6:18 pm The Irish Times Best 50 Irish Movies for the 3rd list.

Now, where's me gold?
Proof?
User avatar
monclivie
Posts: 400
Joined: September 13th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Poland
Contact:

#5575

Post by monclivie »

The most universally acclaimed, popular and influential Indonesian movie in Indonesia is "Ada Apa dengan Cinta?". I did a lot of research on that recently.
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 2919
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#5576

Post by Torgo »

Thanks for the input, monclivie.
7.7 at IMDb with 2500 votes, not bad.

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Apa_dengan_Cinta%3F
"The film raised censorship controversies among conservative Muslims in Indonesia, being the first Indonesian teen movie that featured a scene of a passionate kiss." :ermm:
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5469
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#5577

Post by Fergenaprido »

monclivie wrote: April 12th, 2021, 11:14 pm The most universally acclaimed, popular and influential Indonesian movie in Indonesia is "Ada Apa dengan Cinta?". I did a lot of research on that recently.
I don't know if I would go that far, but it was certainly one of the films that announced that Indonesia was back on the scene, after the dire mid-90s. Some of their earlier films from the '50s that are finally getting restorations might also claim that title.

AADC is also quite good. Saw it on Netflix at the end of last year before it expired. I gave it a 7.6/10.
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5469
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#5578

Post by Fergenaprido »

dirty_score wrote: April 12th, 2021, 8:32 pm
Onderhond wrote: April 12th, 2021, 8:02 pm ]
It's at the end of the BFI Flare's The Best LGBTQ+ Films of All Time list.
For some reason, I forgot to link it :facepalm: Fixed it.




@mods When is the due date for the adoption process?
If by due date you mean when will the blogpost go live, then it's ASAP.

And no, that Irish list isn't the third list.
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11422
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#5579

Post by sol »

Fergenaprido wrote: April 13th, 2021, 1:30 am And no, that Irish list isn't the third list.
Is the third list a country list?

There are other countries that I have suggested in the past could do with an Official list: New Zealand, Colombia, Cuba/Caribbean...
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5469
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#5580

Post by Fergenaprido »

sol wrote: April 13th, 2021, 1:48 am
Fergenaprido wrote: April 13th, 2021, 1:30 am And no, that Irish list isn't the third list.
Is the third list a country list?

There are other countries that I have suggested in the past could do with an Official list: New Zealand, Colombia, Cuba/Caribbean...
Yes.

None of those lists have been adopted this round, no.
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
72aicm
Donator
Posts: 3592
Joined: November 13th, 2016, 7:00 am
Contact:

#5581

Post by 72aicm »

Japan?
User avatar
Torgo
Posts: 2919
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 6:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

#5582

Post by Torgo »

(In the meantime, Walter is studying all possibilities to make "Pre-Code" a country)
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5583

Post by xianjiro »

is it perennial pass-over Denmark? Thailand also seems like a possibility, but I'm not sure a list has been identified that would satisfy our ideals. Also a states of the former country of Yugoslavia might be a target. Egypt? Otherwise not sure of glaring omission that hasn't already been mentioned.
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5469
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#5584

Post by Fergenaprido »

No.

( )

No, no, no, and no. :D

I'm looking for ways to amplify the hints I've already given, but I'm having difficulty finding something suitable that's not obvious.

;)
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5585

Post by xianjiro »

Brasil?
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5586

Post by xianjiro »

Not sure what other country would qualify as "festive".
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11422
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#5587

Post by sol »

If not Ireland, New Zealand, Columbia, Cuba, Denmark, Egypt or Thailand, is it safe to assume that the new country list is a second list for that country?

The only other major film producing country that hasn't got an Official List yet is, I think, NIGERIA.
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
User avatar
Fergenaprido
Donator
Posts: 5469
Joined: June 3rd, 2014, 6:00 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

#5588

Post by Fergenaprido »

xianjiro wrote: April 13th, 2021, 3:44 am Not sure what other country would qualify as "festive".
Don't focus on that. I don't know if beavis was intending to give a clue or not, but if he was, the lists that have already been revealed were the ones that related to "festive".
sol wrote: April 13th, 2021, 3:46 am If not Ireland, New Zealand, Columbia, Cuba, Denmark, Egypt or Thailand, is it safe to assume that the new country list is a second list for that country?
You could say that, yes.

I don't think I've said anything about it up to this point, but since everyone keeps guessing them, I will confirm the third list is a country list.
🧚‍♂️🦫
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5589

Post by xianjiro »

Oh, so you're going to make Cipp's decade and adopt a British list?

If not that, then it seems Germany or France are the only logical choices. China? That doesn't make a lot of sense and I KNOW I didn't get a message about adopting the IMDb Indian Top 250 ... :down:
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5590

Post by xianjiro »

Have we ruled out a list of 1000 Turkish comedies yet? That seems like the only country with a list that "needs" a second list (to make forumites heads explode).
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5591

Post by xianjiro »

Oh, I guess we ruled out a specific Aussie list, but we haven't ruled out another Australian list.
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5592

Post by xianjiro »

Sorry, I gave up going backward through the many comments about just how ______ the BIFF list was and gave up on page 136 - that's like ancient forum history at this point now that we're on page 140.
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5593

Post by xianjiro »

I know Sweden has also been mentioned for another list, but can't remember if FLM is country or award or whatever.
User avatar
kongs_speech
Posts: 1469
Joined: April 4th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Location: FL
Contact:

#5594

Post by kongs_speech »

Torgo wrote: April 13th, 2021, 3:18 am (In the meantime, Walter is studying all possibilities to make "Pre-Code" a country)
Shit, I'd move there. Gorgeous dames like Joans Blondell and Crawford, and as a queer trans woman, I doubt I'd fare quite as bad in Pre-Code than in the contemporary American Bible Belt. Better to just be not represented or talked about than actively hated by violent wackos.
🏳️‍⚧️
Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
Image
User avatar
sol
Donator
Posts: 11422
Joined: February 3rd, 2017, 7:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#5595

Post by sol »

Fergenaprido wrote: April 13th, 2021, 3:48 am I don't think I've said anything about it up to this point, but since everyone keeps guessing them, I will confirm the third list is a country list.
Fergenaprido wrote: April 13th, 2021, 2:20 am
sol wrote: April 13th, 2021, 1:48 am
Fergenaprido wrote: April 13th, 2021, 1:30 am And no, that Irish list isn't the third list.
Is the third list a country list?
Yes.
:ph43r:

Australia could do with another list since the current list doesn't have any films from the past 16 years.

The current Greek list is also ten years old and only features three films made in the last 20 years. :whistling:
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
Image Image Image
Nathan Treadway
Donator
Posts: 4457
Joined: June 26th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Springfield, MO, USA
Contact:

#5596

Post by Nathan Treadway »

So, the next logical question: Is it a country that already has an official list?
User avatar
Coryn
Posts: 1608
Joined: December 5th, 2018, 2:53 pm
Contact:

#5597

Post by Coryn »

Replacing country lists that do not get updated yearly should be priority in my opinion.
I saved Latin, what did you ever do ?
User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 6835
Joined: December 23rd, 2012, 7:00 am
Contact:

#5598

Post by Onderhond »

Coryn wrote: April 13th, 2021, 6:09 am Replacing country lists that do not get updated yearly should be priority in my opinion.
While I agree in principal, that'll probably give you tons of Awards lists.
User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 9407
Joined: June 17th, 2015, 6:00 am
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#5599

Post by xianjiro »

Honestly, I'm not sure what we know about it at this point. Canada could also use with an update/second list.
Fergenaprido wrote: April 13th, 2021, 3:48 am
sol wrote: April 13th, 2021, 3:46 am If not Ireland, New Zealand, Columbia, Cuba, Denmark, Egypt or Thailand, is it safe to assume that the new country list is a second list for that country?
You could say that, yes.

I don't think I've said anything about it up to this point, but since everyone keeps guessing them, I will confirm the third list is a country list.
based on this exchange, I read that to mean an additional list for a country which already has a (country) list - but after re-examining the text, it isn't clear if this could be a country list in addition to an existing country list or in addition to an awards list. I guess this is a meaningful distinction to most users other than me. So, for example, I see the Condor de Plata list as being both a country list and an awards list since it's an Argentinian award. As far as I know, it hasn't been awarded to an Irish movie, for example, but I can't say it hasn't been awarded to a co-production that included Argentina. So I guess it's also possible there is some sort of Best Movies of Argentina book/website/critic poll/whatever that could also qualify as a second list from a country that already has a list, but "You could say that" reads an awful lot like Francis Urquhart's "You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment." non-reply.

But I believe that this third list will NOT be an awards list, but we don't know if it's in addition to a list for a country that has an awards list or some other "best of" type list.

And given the uproar it would cause, I'm highly doubtful this will be any kind of replacement for an existing list. I seem to recall some talk in the not-too-recent past about some country list that would serve as an 'update' to the existing list for that country - that might have been the reason I focused on that. So yes, all the country lists we have for countries could use a companion list because they are all pretty dated or limited in way or another. But again, I'm not sure we know what kind of list the existing list is, well, other than a likely update would just see the existing list updated (without this hullabaloo).

:shrug:
User avatar
WalterNeff
Donator
Posts: 3384
Joined: July 27th, 2011, 6:00 am
Contact:

#5600

Post by WalterNeff »

Torgo wrote: April 13th, 2021, 3:18 am (In the meantime, Walter is studying all possibilities to make "Pre-Code" a country)
Precodia
Post Reply