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New Official List Discussion

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St. Gloede
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#5521

Post by St. Gloede »

flavo5000 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:38 pm
St. Gloede wrote: April 8th, 2021, 8:10 pm There is probably more arthouse overall (and there is arthouse horror ;) ), and arthouse - or at least specific kinds of arthouse - gets access through critics and academics - but in terms of specific lists, they are not placated to like the genres. That's both a sign of their relative privilege (though nothing compared to classic Hollywood) and the lack of specific focus the niche has received.

It was also mainly a counter to the idea that arthouse dominates, especially if compared to "genre" filmmaking and "genre" lists - as there are not even surrealism or minimalism lists - while almost every genre is covered in great detail.
I think for arthouse specifically it all boils down to a clear definition of what it even is. If you ask person A, they may say "foreign films", Person B may say "stuff like The Reader and The Souvenir" meaning mid-tier budget studio-financed dramas, Person C may say "A24 movies", Person D may say "not stuff that plays at my local theater". And I mean, none of these things are really conducive to building a cohesive list out of or are probably representing what you mean when you are thinking of "arthouse" cinema. I mean, at a base-level, the definition would seem to be films that play theatrically but only at smaller non-chain theaters. But really with the popularity of streaming services, a lot of those films are bypassing theaters altogether and going direct to streaming. Plus, my local megaplex has played some pretty random, niche stuff in the past if it was a slow week for big Hollywood movies. I think as long as the lack of clarity exists around what arthouse even is, you will probably never see a list adopted for it.

To your point on the minimalism list, I do think that Slow Cinema list would be a good contender for adoption even if I personally am not the biggest fan of that style of filmmaking.
True, some people would say whatever plays at the local cinematheque (often called arthouses) is arthouse, and as OldAle pointed out stores can have some bizarre practices - but then stores would also throw 5-10-year-old films into the classics display.

Generally speaking though, Arthouse refers to "artistic films" or "art films" - in contrast, to say independent or mid-budget films. (Though, looking up definitions, there were other versions as well - including high-quality films that are not commercially popular and just "small-films") so I will grant you language can be tricky here.
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#5522

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

A lot already been said about the BIFF list, I want to add that a big reason for this list being adopted is also due to how it was constructed; a poll of large pool of various experts. Any list made like that is almost automatically adoptionworthy. (Unless that topic is already covered by even better lists.) And while it’s true that this kind of Asian cinema is already covered well by various other lists, there was no list specific about Asian cinema. (Except the Vick list, but that’s has a different focus, plus it’s too long for most people to work on.) There is no other list on iCM that does what the BIFF list does; offering a manageable overview of the best of Asian cinema has to offer..(well according to these people, agreement on this will differ). Plus the fact it will, should, be updated periodically also (hopefully) prevents the list from becoming outdated and keeping it relevant.
While one can definitely argue this list doesn’t cover the largest gap on iCM and therefor shouldn't have the highest priority... I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubble... but priority isn’t the only measure a set of adoptions are chosen by (at least not when I was mid, it may change). Having a general best of list for Asian cinema might even open the port for more deep dive lists.

Secondly the term “introductory list” has taken on a different meaning in this debate. The list is not meant as an introduction list in that its not meant to represents all different aspect Asian cinema. That’s not how the list was put together. Like someone else already said, it is not like all 73 participants came together to discuss which movie represents India or martial arts the best. It’s a best of list, and in that way a good starting of point also because it’s limited size. The list being a best of list of various filmmakers and critics organized by a film festival does mean it consists of critics and festival favorites. This could be considered an inherent flaw, and result in list of many that already are in other lists. For others this being the top choices of these participants is the strength of the list.
Last edited by Lonewolf2003 on April 8th, 2021, 11:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#5523

Post by mightysparks »

St. Gloede wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:33 pm
Onderhond wrote: April 8th, 2021, 8:30 pm
St. Gloede wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:03 pm Mainstream =//= Contemporary mainstream.
Look, either we agree on some kind of definition, or it's better to stop a discussion where we're both discussing different things.

I'm willing to agree with the above statement when you give me better words/definitions to work with, but as far as people identifying as mainstream film fans go, Mainstream == Contemporary mainstream. Never ever did I meet someone who identified as a mainstream film fan and started talking about 2001 and Hitchcock. Which doesn't mean such a person wouldn't exist, but they sure are rare and not representative for the group I'm talking about. Similarly, if you ask people what kind of music they like and the answer with "pop", there's a very slim chance they're talking about Elvis Presley, even though his music was considered pop back in the day.

But just tell me what to call them so there's no more confusion from here on out, otherwise this entire part of the conversation is just moot.
(and no one will say that Elvis or The Beatles, etc. are not extremely known/mainstream, they are constantly on the radio, etc. People would probably just say Rock'n Roll, Rock, etc. though).
When I say or hear pop I think of The Beatles and stuff from the 50s and 60s since that is what I listen to.. but after choosing ‘pop’ as a fave genre on music sites and getting whatever’s on the radio now recommended to me or having young people misunderstand me I have to clarify and say stuff like oldies or rock n roll or bubblegum pop. But that will always be the real pop to me :p
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#5524

Post by WalterNeff »

You know what's missing from all of these discussions? Pre-Code.
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#5525

Post by mjf314 »

Here's my attempt at creating an introduction to Asian cinema: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mjf3 ... ma/mjf314/

I used BIFF as a starting point, and then started making changes. It shares 47 films with BIFF. I think it has a bit more genre variety and more mainstream films than BIFF, but I'm not sure if it's good enough to get the Onderhond Seal of Approval.
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#5526

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond has left the building ...
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#5527

Post by Tim2460 »

Tiff and BIFF are certain new adoption then ?

I'll include them on the 3+ List to see what happens
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#5528

Post by Onderhond »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:39 pm I want to add that a big reason for this list being adopted is also due to how it was constructed; a poll of large pool of various experts. Any list made like that is almost automatically adoptionworthy ... While one can definitely argue this list doesn’t cover the largest gap on iCM and therefor shouldn't have the highest priority... I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubble... but priority isn’t the only measure a set of adoptions are chosen by (at least not when I was mid, it may change). Having a general best of list for Asian cinema might even open the port for more deep dive lists.
I guess that's what my brain struggles with the most. Certain criteria are clearly very important for adoption, while others barely matter. I do feel that with that current balance, certain things are definitely lost in the process between intention and result. To say this is meant to be an introductory list based on merely size and methods of origin just doesn't compute for me. To have something then that doesn't properly cover the breadth of Asian cinema is counterproductive. To me it sounds as if once it is established a certain list is needed on ICM, it becomes some kind of best effort operation rather than a quest to find an actual valuable list.

But please correct me if I'm wrong :)
Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:39 pmThe list being a best of list of various filmmakers and critics organized by a film festival does mean it consists of critics and festival favorites. This could be considered an inherent flaw, and result in list of many that already are in other lists. For others this being the top choices of these participants is the strength of the list.
I would say that if you picked the list with a specific goal in mind, the quality of a list shouldn't be dependent on how interesting individuals think the list is for them, but how well the list accomplishes its goals.
mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 2:07 am Here's my attempt at creating an introduction to Asian cinema: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/mjf3 ... ma/mjf314/

I used BIFF as a starting point, and then started making changes. It shares 47 films with BIFF. I think it has a bit more genre variety and more mainstream films than BIFF, but I'm not sure if it's good enough to get the Onderhond Seal of Approval.
Well, it does seem a bit slighted to things I would appreciate, but I definitely feel you made a lot of smart choices.

For example, I think 5 animes is definitely too much. There's no real need to have Akira and GitS together in this list. Depending on the balance 1 or 2 spots for a particular area of Asian cinema should suffice. If it's just one spot for anime, then you can have a discussion whether you'd prefer a film that eases people into the genre (like Spirited Away) or one the best represents the distinctive qualities of the genre (like Akira). I think both approaches are valuable, but these are the kind of discussions I'd prefer to have about a list like this.

The inclusion of Infernal Affairs is another good choice. Again, you can discuss whether it isn't better filled by a To film if we're going to represent HK crime cinema, but both options would be very logical. Having a Stephen Chow comedy in there is also smart, because comedy is a big chunk of Hong Kong cinema, even though it may not be the part that travels best overseas. But if you want to introduce people to what Hong Kong cinema is, you cannot simply ignore it.

Same goes for choices like My Sassy Girl, insanely popular film in Asia, covers a genre you don't often find in lists like these and deserves its spot there. A film like Lagaan seems to fill the Aamir Khan void for India and adds more than 2 of the 3 Apu films. Ong-bak is also a good choice, since it showcases Thai cinema while also giving an alternative to Hong Kong action/martial arts. Though I would go for either Ong-bak or The Raid, not both.

I do think you're definitely lacking a Shaw Bros martial arts film still (either something like 36th Chamber, or maybe a Chang Cheh one), also a Kaiju/tokusatsu film (Gojira is an obvious choice, maybe not the best representative, then again picking some mid-series film may also be rather awkward). I also would get rid of either Shoplifters/Parasite, same for Audition/Battle Royale, since they more or less cover similar grounds and eras. And probably some thing I'm missing now because I really should be working instead of evaluating an introductory Asia list :P

Oh, and what me laugh really hard was the inclusion of both Kiali Blues and An Elephant Sitting Still. I was actually willing to make a bet with the list mods that if these two films would appear on the future update they make the list unofficial again, but your list beat me to the punch :lol: I might include one of them, but since China's commercial/genre leg went from 0 to Hollywood contender in less than 20 years, you need to have something to represent that too.

So yeah, I definitely think this list is better, though when it comes to inclusions of films outside the East-Asian countries there are certainly other people who have much more interesting things to say.
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#5529

Post by mjf314 »

Which films do you think would be the best representatives of Chinese commercial/genre films?
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#5530

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 6:36 am Which films do you think would be the best representatives of Chinese commercial/genre films?
Well yeah, there's a reason why I didn't give a suggestion yet :D

There's The Wandering Earth, that one is pretty in your face blockbuster and carries international clout (with a big Netflix release), but it's also very recent and not really reflective of what is typical I think. I might pick something with Baoqiang Wang (like the Detective Chinatown films) maybe? Action/comedies are very popular, the dude is very recognizable (a big plus for people who can't tell Chinese people apart), the films are very successful (the most recent one broke some box office records) and it's also quite popular Pan-Asia if I'm not mistaken. It's also a very particular kind of comedy that screams China (although that probably means nothing for people brought up on Zia).

Edit: alternatively, something with Huang Bo, but he's usually part of the somewhat classier side of Chinese popular cinema.
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#5531

Post by mjf314 »

I just checked Douban's trending page to see what's popular and recent, and I see Better Days near the top (8.3 with over a million votes). I haven't seen it, so I'm not sure if it counts as arthouse or commercial, or somewhere in between.

Ne Zha is near the top as well, but I guess an animated film wouldn't be the best representative.
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#5532

Post by Onderhond »

Better Days is this year's Oscar contender (for Hong Kong), it's a drama about school bullying. I don't think it's an obvious fit. (conversely, it would be an interesting Oscar win after Japan 2 years ago and South-Korea last year).

Animation is certainly becoming a thing too in China, but that's also very very fresh and recent. These big blockbuster comedies have been going strong for the past decade or so, which I think makes it a more established choice. They're also storming the current BO list on ICM (to the annoyance of some B) )
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#5533

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Onderhond wrote: April 9th, 2021, 6:24 am
Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:39 pm I want to add that a big reason for this list being adopted is also due to how it was constructed; a poll of large pool of various experts. Any list made like that is almost automatically adoptionworthy ... While one can definitely argue this list doesn’t cover the largest gap on iCM and therefor shouldn't have the highest priority... I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubble... but priority isn’t the only measure a set of adoptions are chosen by (at least not when I was mid, it may change). Having a general best of list for Asian cinema might even open the port for more deep dive lists.
I guess that's what my brain struggles with the most. Certain criteria are clearly very important for adoption, while others barely matter. I do feel that with that current balance, certain things are definitely lost in the process between intention and result. To say this is meant to be an introductory list based on merely size and methods of origin just doesn't compute for me. To have something then that doesn't properly cover the breadth of Asian cinema is counterproductive. To me it sounds as if once it is established a certain list is needed on ICM, it becomes some kind of best effort operation rather than a quest to find an actual valuable list.

But please correct me if I'm wrong :)
[/qoute]
The criteria for adoptions basically come down to two factors and than finding a balance between those two, that will differ for each specific case.
1) Does this list cover a subject that needs to be covered and isn't covered by other lists already better on iCM; BIFF does this
2) The quality of the list: what kind of list is it, poll, book, critic list, website, what size it is, etc; BIFF list has great quality according to these criteria.

Like I said I think this list is not meant as an introductory list, but as best of list. It's not meant to cover the breadth of Asian cinema. If it did also that this list would be so perfect I think the whole space-time continuum would collapse in itself.
There certain are some merits in your criticism of the list, in fact I could already paint out your reaction to it when discussing, so I at least are aware of these cons. But the pros to adopt far outweigh the cons.
Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:39 pmThe list being a best of list of various filmmakers and critics organized by a film festival does mean it consists of critics and festival favorites. This could be considered an inherent flaw, and result in list of many that already are in other lists. For others this being the top choices of these participants is the strength of the list.
I would say that if you picked the list with a specific goal in mind, the quality of a list shouldn't be dependent on how interesting individuals think the list is for them, but how well the list accomplishes its goals.
We did not set out to find this list with a specific goal; finding a introductory list that covers all aspects of Asian cinema. We came across this list and like explained above it hit all the right marks for it becoming official. Cause this list accomplishes its goals very well: being an sizeable overview of what are to expert the best films Asian cinema have to offer.

In other cases there are established a certain gasps list are needed for on ICM. Alas in many cases it is very difficult to find actual valuable list for that gap.
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#5534

Post by Onderhond »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 10:00 am Like I said I think this list is not meant as an introductory list, but as best of list. It's not meant to cover the breadth of Asian cinema. If it did also that this list would be so perfect I think the whole space-time continuum would collapse in itself.
Would it have been that hard?
1/ get a more diverse panel of voters
2/ ask them not what their favorite Asian films are, but what films best represent Asian cinema.

I get you want some kind of starter list, I simply don't see how you would be content with it only covering part of the cinematic spectrum. But if that's ICM's choice/mission, I can only sulk about it :)
Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:39 pmCause this list accomplishes its goals very well: being an sizeable overview of what are to expert the best films Asian cinema have to offer.
I'm sorry, but "experts". :shrug:

What is accomplishes is offering a starter list for a particular type of film fan, the one already served best by ICM.
Maybe I need to start a hashtag for this. #icmsoarthouse
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#5535

Post by St. Gloede »

Can I just say, good thing we put the mainstream discussion to rest. :cheers:

(and the list you and MjF are putting together is certainly more representative)
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#5536

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Onderhond wrote: April 9th, 2021, 10:21 am
Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 10:00 am Like I said I think this list is not meant as an introductory list, but as best of list. It's not meant to cover the breadth of Asian cinema. If it did also that this list would be so perfect I think the whole space-time continuum would collapse in itself.
Would it have been that hard?
1/ get a more diverse panel of voters
2/ ask them not what their favorite Asian films are, but what films best represent Asian cinema.
I dont know, ask the organizers of the list. :shrug:

I get you want some kind of starter list, I simply don't see how you would be content with it only covering part of the cinematic spectrum. But if that's ICM's choice/mission, I can only sulk about it :)
This is valid criticism, we are content cause the pros to adopt far outweighs this. If there is another list that does cover the whole spectrum better I’m all for considering that list.
Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:39 pmCause this list accomplishes its goals very well: being an sizeable overview of what are to expert the best films Asian cinema have to offer.
I'm sorry, but "experts". :shrug:

What is accomplishes is offering a starter list for a particular type of film fan, the one already served best by ICM.
Maybe I need to start a hashtag for this. #icmsoarthouse
Yes I would call these people “experts”.

It also indeed caters to a particular type of film fan, the one already served best by ICM. I’m, and the mods, are all for lists that cover other types too. Alas those are hard to find. Maybe you could organize a poll on one of those other film communities you frequent?
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#5538

Post by St. Gloede »

Onderhond wrote: April 9th, 2021, 10:21 am What is accomplishes is offering a starter list for a particular type of film fan, the one already served best by ICM.
Maybe I need to start a hashtag for this. #icmsoarthouse
You are joking/trolling, right? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

(If not, seriously, you are throwing every type of film buff into one box - with 1-2 exceptions - and it makes absolutely no sense)
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#5539

Post by Lammetje »

Onderhond wrote: April 8th, 2021, 8:05 am
Teproc wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:40 pm I'm curious what you think the point of official lists is, Onderhond?
Lammetje can probably cast some light on this, but I feel we had this discussion before.
There was some discussion on March, 2nd in this thread. And I found this. I could probably find a lot more but I can't be arsed to continue searching. :P
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#5540

Post by Onderhond »

I did it, I beat Lammetje! :cowbow:
dirty_score wrote: April 9th, 2021, 11:02 am The third list?

Adelaide Film Festival Top 100 Australian Films
Could that mean the end of Scott Hocking then?
Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 10:33 am Maybe you could organize a poll on one of those other film communities you frequent?
I could, but I tend to avoid big responsibilities like that. I have slightly too much work maintaining my own website, one can only do so much :)
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#5541

Post by flavo5000 »

Onderhond wrote: April 9th, 2021, 3:12 pm I did it, I beat Lammetje! :cowbow:
dirty_score wrote: April 9th, 2021, 11:02 am The third list?

Adelaide Film Festival Top 100 Australian Films
Could that mean the end of Scott Hocking then?
I don't think that's necessarily the case (at least I would hope not). This list seems to be more a compliment to include more contemporary Australian films since the Hocking list basically seems to cut off at 2005. But the Hocking list has quite a few films from prior decades that would get missed on the Adelaide list. So I would hope it's more a supplement to Hocking's list similar to the two Korean lists. Do we know that's the third list or is dirty_score just speculating?
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#5542

Post by dirty_score »

flavo5000 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 3:23 pm
Onderhond wrote: April 9th, 2021, 3:12 pm I did it, I beat Lammetje! :cowbow:
dirty_score wrote: April 9th, 2021, 11:02 am The third list?

Adelaide Film Festival Top 100 Australian Films
Could that mean the end of Scott Hocking then?
I don't think that's necessarily the case (at least I would hope not). This list seems to be more a compliment to include more contemporary Australian films since the Hocking list basically seems to cut off at 2005. But the Hocking list has quite a few films from prior decades that would get missed on the Adelaide list. So I would hope it's more a supplement to Hocking's list similar to the two Korean lists. Do we know that's the third list or is dirty_score just speculating?
They rarely replace lists so this would be more like an extension to it and yes, i'm just speculating. If the trend of this adoption are festivals then that's where I'm putting my money in because I'm out of ideas.
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#5543

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Onderhond wrote: April 9th, 2021, 3:12 pm I did it, I beat Lammetje! :cowbow:
dirty_score wrote: April 9th, 2021, 11:02 am The third list?

Adelaide Film Festival Top 100 Australian Films
Could that mean the end of Scott Hocking then?
Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 10:33 am Maybe you could organize a poll on one of those other film communities you frequent?
I could, but I tend to avoid big responsibilities like that. I have slightly too much work maintaining my own website, one can only do so much :)
Maybe you can delegate those responsibilities to someone else? I said it part in jest, but part very serious. If there are other film forum/communities with total different type of movie buffs I think those kind of list would be a welcome addition to iCM, more so than a list from a similar kind, or run of the mill kind of forum/community.
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#5544

Post by mjf314 »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:37 pm Maybe you can delegate those responsibilities to someone else? I said it part in jest, but part very serious. If there are other film forum/communities with total different type of movie buffs I think those kind of list would be a welcome addition to iCM, more so than a list from a similar kind, or run of the mill kind of forum/community.
There's a best movies list on MyDramaList, voted by 98 people. It's not really adoptable, because there are too many 1-vote films and too many Korean films. Most MDL users are more interested in Korea than other Asian countries.
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#5545

Post by mjf314 »

@Onderhond: Ok, I made a few changes to the list.

- I removed Ghost in the Shell (and kept Akira). I might consider removing Your Name as well, if I need to make room for something else, but I want to keep at least 3 anime films on the list.
- I think Infernal Affairs is more widely loved than any of To's films, so I think I'll keep it.
- I removed Ong-Bak (and kept The Raid).
- Actually I have 2 Aamir Khan films (Lagaan and 3 Idiots). I want to keep 3 Idiots because it's so popular, but I replaced Lagaan with DDLJ. I think they're roughly equally popular, but DDLJ is maybe a little more representative because it's romance.
- I added 36th Chamber to represent Shaw Brothers martial arts.
- I added Gojira to represent kaiju. It might not be the most typical one, but it's the most popular one.
- I think Shoplifters and Parasite are different enough to keep both, but I would maybe consider replacing Shoplifters with a different Koreeda (e.g. Nobody Knows or Still Walking).
- I removed Audition (and kept Battle Royale), and replaced it with Tampopo, but if you can think of a better replacement, let me know.
- I removed Kaili Blues (and kept An Elephant Sitting Still).
- I added Detective Chinatown to represent Chinese comedy.
- It's hard to have a good representation of smaller countries, with only 1 spot per country, but if you have a good suggestion, maybe I'll consider replacing something.
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#5546

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 5:34 pm - It's hard to have a good representation of smaller countries, with only 1 spot per country, but if you have a good suggestion, maybe I'll consider replacing something.
Not my cup of tea I'm afraid. I know OldAle1 is quite knowledgeable about countries like Iran and such, maybe he could help in that department.

Haven't checked in detail, but we're probably missing women (Ann Hui's Boat People is an obvious choice, or something Kawase). Happy Together for the LGBT+ crowd? There are probably a million angles lacking still, but it sure feels like a smarter list for people who want a starter kit to Asian cinema.
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#5547

Post by mjf314 »

There is a woman-directed film on the list, Wadjda.

I already have a Wong Kar-Wai film on the list, and I don't want to replace In the Mood For Love.

I'll replace Uncle Boonmee with Tropical Malady, to represent LGBT, because they're roughly equally acclaimed.
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#5548

Post by OldAle1 »

Here is my Iran shortlist. These are the first half-dozen films that crossed my mind that reflect what is valuable about the Iranian cinema in general. Just as with Hong Kong you kind of have to focus more on the genre stuff - particularly action/crime, because that's what they're known for, and you have to have some anime from Japan, from Iran you have to have a sample of the playing around with the documentary-fiction divide which I think is central to the country's arthouse (there's that evil word) cinema. The popular cinema from the country since the revolution seems to be mostly stupid comedies, family films, and war films, and I haven't seen so much of that stuff, and little of it have been particularly good. So these are all "film buff" films because that's the cinema as most viewers outside of the country see it.

The House is Black (1963) - on 12 lists including TSP
Brick and Mirror (1965) - on 2 lists (the Iranian list and Rosenbaum)
The Cow (1969) - on 5 lists
A Moment of Innocence (1996) - on 7 lists including TSP
Two Women (1999) - on 1 list (Tom Vick)
The Wind Will Carry Us (1999) - on 7 lists including TSP

In terms of pruning the list, I'd say one could drop The House is Black because it's a short, and also extremely well represented officially already, though it is certainly the most influential single film in the last 60 years. I think you'd need one of the next two films - the two most important "serious" features of the 1960s, that helped put the country on the cinematic map, but maybe not both. Not sure how to pick there. Two Women is important as a strongly feminist film, and I think with cinema from this region it's really important to showcase the fact that there is resistance to the old repressive ways - even under a repressive regime. I dunno, it's tough. If I had to pick a single film it'd probably be A Moment of Innocence, because it's a great example of a documentary-essay work that is nonetheless very accessible, gives some idea of what Iranian cinema and culture are, and is generally entertaining.

I'll do a short Filipino list also if nobody else beats me to it.
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#5549

Post by mjf314 »

Wadjda is very feminist as well (not from the same country, but it's from the Middle East). Should I add a 2nd feminist Middle East film? Or should I replace The House is Black with something else?

The Cow and A Moment of Innocence are already on the list, so I guess I'll keep them.

I currently have 4 Filipino films on the list:
Manila in the Claws of Light
Perfumed Nightmare
Batch '81
Evolution of a Filipino Family

I'm pretty sure I want to keep Manila and Evolution, but I'd consider replacing the other two if you have good suggestions.
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#5550

Post by flavo5000 »

mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 6:57 pm Wadjda is very feminist as well (not from the same country, but it's from the Middle East). Should I add a 2nd feminist Middle East film? Or should I replace The House is Black with something else?

The Cow and A Moment of Innocence are already on the list, so I guess I'll keep them.

I currently have 4 Filipino films on the list:
Manila in the Claws of Light
Perfumed Nightmare
Batch '81
Evolution of a Filipino Family

I'm pretty sure I want to keep Manila and Evolution, but I'd consider replacing the other two if you have good suggestions.
You really only need one Filipino film on the list:
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#5551

Post by OldAle1 »

mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 6:57 pm Wadjda is very feminist as well (not from the same country, but it's from the Middle East). Should I add a 2nd feminist Middle East film? Or should I replace The House is Black with something else?

The Cow and A Moment of Innocence are already on the list, so I guess I'll keep them.

I currently have 4 Filipino films on the list:
Manila in the Claws of Light
Perfumed Nightmare
Batch '81
Evolution of a Filipino Family

I'm pretty sure I want to keep Manila and Evolution, but I'd consider replacing the other two if you have good suggestions.
I think any of your choices re: Iran are fine. The House is Black is certainly very important, and as a short, very accessible and easy to watch; and I guess as a sort of introductory list, it shouldn't matter whether a film is already on 10+ lists.

That Filipino list is pretty solid I think. Other films that I'd say might be options would be Oro, plata, mata (1982) or Three Godless Years (1976) but I don't know what I'd replace.
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#5552

Post by Fergenaprido »

dirty_score wrote: April 9th, 2021, 3:48 pm
flavo5000 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 3:23 pm
Onderhond wrote: April 9th, 2021, 3:12 pm I did it, I beat Lammetje! :cowbow:


Could that mean the end of Scott Hocking then?
I don't think that's necessarily the case (at least I would hope not). This list seems to be more a compliment to include more contemporary Australian films since the Hocking list basically seems to cut off at 2005. But the Hocking list has quite a few films from prior decades that would get missed on the Adelaide list. So I would hope it's more a supplement to Hocking's list similar to the two Korean lists. Do we know that's the third list or is dirty_score just speculating?
They rarely replace lists so this would be more like an extension to it and yes, i'm just speculating. If the trend of this adoption are festivals then that's where I'm putting my money in because I'm out of ideas.
I can confirm two things:
1. I did not send out an adoption request to myself :D (so no Adelaide list)
2. The third list is not a festival list.
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#5553

Post by Fergenaprido »

mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 5:34 pm - It's hard to have a good representation of smaller countries, with only 1 spot per country, but if you have a good suggestion, maybe I'll consider replacing something.
Are you counting the Caucasus as Europe? I would have expected at least one film from Georgia or Armenia to be included.
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#5554

Post by Torgo »

Fergenaprido wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:50 pm 2. The third list is not a festival list.
Ok, so it will not be the Pre-Code Festival list, but there's still hope beyond that.
*Walter's fingers crossed*
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#5555

Post by dirty_score »

Fergenaprido wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:50 pm 2. The third list is not a festival list.
That's not very helpful :ermm: maybe a sneak peek of the logos? :think:
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#5556

Post by Fergenaprido »

dirty_score wrote: April 9th, 2021, 9:24 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:50 pm 2. The third list is not a festival list.
That's not very helpful :ermm: maybe a sneak peek of the logos? :think:
The clue isn't always in what I respond to. Sometimes it's in what I don't respond to. ;)
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#5557

Post by mjf314 »

Fergenaprido wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:51 pm
mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 5:34 pm - It's hard to have a good representation of smaller countries, with only 1 spot per country, but if you have a good suggestion, maybe I'll consider replacing something.
Are you counting the Caucasus as Europe? I would have expected at least one film from Georgia or Armenia to be included.
I'm not sure. Does anyone else have an opinion? Armenia is entirely inside Asia, but Wikipedia says "While Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus, it is generally considered geopolitically European."

Here's the current list arranged by country, to make browsing easier. If anyone thinks certain countries are overrepresented or underrepresented, let me know. I can remove a few of the less important countries if I need to make room for other stuff.
List
Kurutta ippêji (1926, Japan)
Tange Sazen yowa: Hyakuman ryô no tsubo (1935, Japan)
Tôkyô monogatari (1953, Japan)
Ugetsu monogatari (1953, Japan)
Gojira (1954, Japan)
Shichinin no samurai (1954, Japan)
Ukigumo (1955, Japan)
Seppuku (1962, Japan)
Onibaba (1964, Japan)
Suna no onna (1964, Japan)
Hausu (1977, Japan)
Tampopo (1985, Japan)
Akira (1988, Japan)
Hotaru no haka (1988, Japan)
Sonatine (1993, Japan)
Ringu (1998, Japan)
Batoru rowaiaru (2000, Japan)
Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi (2001, Japan)
Ai no mukidashi (2008, Japan)
Kimi no na wa. (2016, Japan)
Kamera wo tomeruna! (2017, Japan)
Manbiki kazoku (2018, Japan)
Hanyo (1960, Korea)
Dharmaga tongjoguro kan kkadalgun (1989, Korea)
Seopyeonje (1993, Korea)
Yeopgijeogin geunyeo (2001, Korea)
Bom yeoreum gaeul gyeoul geurigo bom (2003, Korea)
Janghwa, Hongryeon (2003, Korea)
Oldeuboi (2003, Korea)
Kimssi pyoryugi (2009, Korea)
Shi (2010, Korea)
Busanhaeng (2016, Korea)
Beoning (2018, Korea)
Gisaengchung (2019, Korea)
Shen nu (1934, China)
Xiao cheng zhi chun (1948, China)
Da hong deng long gao gao gua (1991, China)
Ba wang bie ji (1993, China)
Guizi lai le (2000, China)
Wo hu cang long (2000, China)
Tiexi qu (2002, China)
Ying xiong (2002, China)
San xia hao ren (2006, China)
Tang ren jie tan an (2015, China)
Da xiang xi di er zuo (2018, China)
Shao Lin san shi liu fang (1978, Hong Kong)
Ging chaat goo si (1985, Hong Kong)
Do ma daan (1986, Hong Kong)
Sien lui yau wan (1987, Hong Kong)
Dip huet seung hung (1989, Hong Kong)
Ruan Ling Yu (1991, Hong Kong)
Faa yeung nin wa (2000, Hong Kong)
Mou gaan dou (2002, Hong Kong)
Kung fu (2004, Hong Kong)
Khaneh siah ast (1963, Iran)
Gaav (1969, Iran)
Davandeh (1984, Iran)
Nema-ye Nazdik (1990, Iran)
Nun va Goldoon (1996, Iran)
Bacheha-Ye aseman (1997, Iran)
Dayereh (2000, Iran)
Jodaeiye Nader az Simin (2011, Iran)
Awaara (1951, India)
Pather Panchali (1955, India)
Pyaasa (1957, India)
Meghe Dhaka Tara (1960, India)
Sholay (1975, India)
Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge (1995, India)
3 Idiots (2009, India)
Maynila sa mga kuko ng liwanag (1975, Philippines)
Mababangong Bangungot (1977, Philippines)
Batch '81 (1982, Philippines)
Ebolusyon ng isang pamilyang Pilipino (2004, Philippines)
Xia nü (1971, Taiwan)
Beiqíng chéngshì (1989, Taiwan)
Gu ling jie shao nian sha ren shi jian (1991, Taiwan)
Ai qing wan sui (1994, Taiwan)
Ruang rak noi nid mahasan (2003, Thailand)
Mah nakorn (2004, Thailand)
Shutter (2004, Thailand)
Sud pralad (2004, Thailand)
Yol (1982, Turkey)
Eskiya (1996, Turkey)
Bir Zamanlar Anadolu'da (2011, Turkey)
Serbuan maut (2011, Indonesia)
The Act of Killing (2012, Indonesia)
Osama (2003, Afghanistan)
Matir moina (2002, Bangladesh)
Travellers & Magicians (2003, Bhutan)
L'image manquante (2013, Cambodia)
Vals Im Bashir (2008, Israel)
Beshkempir (1998, Kyrgyzstan)
Mukhsin (2006, Malaysia)
Die Höhle des gelben Hundes (2005, Mongolia)
Himalaya - l'enfance d'un chef (1999, Nepal)
Paradise Now (2005, Palestine)
Wadjda (2012, Saudi Arabia)
Ilo Ilo (2013, Singapore)
Nevestka (1972, Turkmenistan)
Mùi du du xanh (1993, Vietnam)
Country breakdown
Japan: 22
Korea: 12
China: 11
Hong Kong: 9
Iran: 8
India: 7
Philippines: 4
Taiwan: 4
Thailand: 4
Turkey: 3
Indonesia: 2
Afghanistan: 1
Bangladesh: 1
Bhutan: 1
Cambodia: 1
Israel: 1
Kyrgyzstan: 1
Malaysia: 1
Mongolia: 1
Nepal: 1
Palestine: 1
Saudi Arabia: 1
Singapore: 1
Turkmenistan: 1
Vietnam: 1
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#5558

Post by Fergenaprido »

mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 9:57 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:51 pm
mjf314 wrote: April 9th, 2021, 5:34 pm - It's hard to have a good representation of smaller countries, with only 1 spot per country, but if you have a good suggestion, maybe I'll consider replacing something.
Are you counting the Caucasus as Europe? I would have expected at least one film from Georgia or Armenia to be included.
I'm not sure. Does anyone else have an opinion? Armenia is entirely inside Asia, but Wikipedia says "While Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus, it is generally considered geopolitically European."

Here's the current list arranged by country, to make browsing easier. If anyone thinks certain countries are overrepresented or underrepresented, let me know. I can remove a few of the less important countries if I need to make room for other stuff.
List
Kurutta ippêji (1926, Japan)
Tange Sazen yowa: Hyakuman ryô no tsubo (1935, Japan)
Tôkyô monogatari (1953, Japan)
Ugetsu monogatari (1953, Japan)
Gojira (1954, Japan)
Shichinin no samurai (1954, Japan)
Ukigumo (1955, Japan)
Seppuku (1962, Japan)
Onibaba (1964, Japan)
Suna no onna (1964, Japan)
Hausu (1977, Japan)
Tampopo (1985, Japan)
Akira (1988, Japan)
Hotaru no haka (1988, Japan)
Sonatine (1993, Japan)
Ringu (1998, Japan)
Batoru rowaiaru (2000, Japan)
Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi (2001, Japan)
Ai no mukidashi (2008, Japan)
Kimi no na wa. (2016, Japan)
Kamera wo tomeruna! (2017, Japan)
Manbiki kazoku (2018, Japan)
Hanyo (1960, Korea)
Dharmaga tongjoguro kan kkadalgun (1989, Korea)
Seopyeonje (1993, Korea)
Yeopgijeogin geunyeo (2001, Korea)
Bom yeoreum gaeul gyeoul geurigo bom (2003, Korea)
Janghwa, Hongryeon (2003, Korea)
Oldeuboi (2003, Korea)
Kimssi pyoryugi (2009, Korea)
Shi (2010, Korea)
Busanhaeng (2016, Korea)
Beoning (2018, Korea)
Gisaengchung (2019, Korea)
Shen nu (1934, China)
Xiao cheng zhi chun (1948, China)
Da hong deng long gao gao gua (1991, China)
Ba wang bie ji (1993, China)
Guizi lai le (2000, China)
Wo hu cang long (2000, China)
Tiexi qu (2002, China)
Ying xiong (2002, China)
San xia hao ren (2006, China)
Tang ren jie tan an (2015, China)
Da xiang xi di er zuo (2018, China)
Shao Lin san shi liu fang (1978, Hong Kong)
Ging chaat goo si (1985, Hong Kong)
Do ma daan (1986, Hong Kong)
Sien lui yau wan (1987, Hong Kong)
Dip huet seung hung (1989, Hong Kong)
Ruan Ling Yu (1991, Hong Kong)
Faa yeung nin wa (2000, Hong Kong)
Mou gaan dou (2002, Hong Kong)
Kung fu (2004, Hong Kong)
Khaneh siah ast (1963, Iran)
Gaav (1969, Iran)
Davandeh (1984, Iran)
Nema-ye Nazdik (1990, Iran)
Nun va Goldoon (1996, Iran)
Bacheha-Ye aseman (1997, Iran)
Dayereh (2000, Iran)
Jodaeiye Nader az Simin (2011, Iran)
Awaara (1951, India)
Pather Panchali (1955, India)
Pyaasa (1957, India)
Meghe Dhaka Tara (1960, India)
Sholay (1975, India)
Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge (1995, India)
3 Idiots (2009, India)
Maynila sa mga kuko ng liwanag (1975, Philippines)
Mababangong Bangungot (1977, Philippines)
Batch '81 (1982, Philippines)
Ebolusyon ng isang pamilyang Pilipino (2004, Philippines)
Xia nü (1971, Taiwan)
Beiqíng chéngshì (1989, Taiwan)
Gu ling jie shao nian sha ren shi jian (1991, Taiwan)
Ai qing wan sui (1994, Taiwan)
Ruang rak noi nid mahasan (2003, Thailand)
Mah nakorn (2004, Thailand)
Shutter (2004, Thailand)
Sud pralad (2004, Thailand)
Yol (1982, Turkey)
Eskiya (1996, Turkey)
Bir Zamanlar Anadolu'da (2011, Turkey)
Serbuan maut (2011, Indonesia)
The Act of Killing (2012, Indonesia)
Osama (2003, Afghanistan)
Matir moina (2002, Bangladesh)
Travellers & Magicians (2003, Bhutan)
L'image manquante (2013, Cambodia)
Vals Im Bashir (2008, Israel)
Beshkempir (1998, Kyrgyzstan)
Mukhsin (2006, Malaysia)
Die Höhle des gelben Hundes (2005, Mongolia)
Himalaya - l'enfance d'un chef (1999, Nepal)
Paradise Now (2005, Palestine)
Wadjda (2012, Saudi Arabia)
Ilo Ilo (2013, Singapore)
Nevestka (1972, Turkmenistan)
Mùi du du xanh (1993, Vietnam)
Country breakdown
Japan: 22
Korea: 12
China: 11
Hong Kong: 9
Iran: 8
India: 7
Philippines: 4
Taiwan: 4
Thailand: 4
Turkey: 3
Indonesia: 2
Afghanistan: 1
Bangladesh: 1
Bhutan: 1
Cambodia: 1
Israel: 1
Kyrgyzstan: 1
Malaysia: 1
Mongolia: 1
Nepal: 1
Palestine: 1
Saudi Arabia: 1
Singapore: 1
Turkmenistan: 1
Vietnam: 1
I don't understand the uniqueness/examples provided by these films (not saying they shouldn't be here, as I haven't seen some of them):
Mababangong Bangungot, Davandeh, Sonatine, Guizi lai le, Ruang rak noi nid mahasan, Kimssi pyoryugi, The Act of Killing, Kimi no na wa.

Here are my suggestions:
Surprised to see Turkmenistan show up instead of Kazakhstan, but Nevetska is indeed a "well-known" film from Central Asia.
I'd replace Himalaya - l'enfance d'un chef with something else from Nepal that's locally directed, like Seto Surya.
I'd replace Mukhsin with Sepet, since Mukhsin is a prequel to Sepet (but kudos for choosing Yasmin Ahmad for Malaysia).
No Hababam? I know we like to rag on the film, but Turkish comedies from the 1970s and 1980s are a huge part of the film culture/history of Turkey.
I think another Indonesian film could be used, perhaps something capturing the horror/badmovie craze of the 1980s.
More Middle Eastern films would be nice, too. Something from Lebanon (maybe from Ziad Doueri or Nadine Labaki) would be good.
I think Israel could warrant another film, perhaps a queer one since those are lacking, and along with Thailand, Taiwan, and the Philippines, it's one of the few Asian countries that put out queer films on a regular basis (something from Eytan Fox perhaps).
I think you could pick a better Vietnamese film than one shot entirely on a soundstage in France.
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#5559

Post by mjf314 »

Mababangong Bangungot was just an arbitrary acclaimed Filipino film, but it could be replaced. It does have a fairly unique style, but I haven't seen a lot of Filipino films, so maybe there are better choices.
Devandeh was on the BIFF list, but near the bottom, so I wouldn't mind replacing it.
I included Sonatine as both a yakuza example and a Takeshi Kitano example (he's a fairly popular director).
Guizi lai le was on the BIFF list, but near the bottom, but it's also on a lot of lists, so I think I'll probably keep it.
The Act of Killing is the most critically acclaimed Indonesian film (although it's not Indonesian directed).
Kimi no na wa is just a popular anime film, but I was considering removing it, if I need to make room for something else.
The Turkmenistan film was on the BIFF list in the top half of the list, so I kept it.
I didn't notice that HImalaya wasn't locally directed, and it was just an arbitrary choice. I think I'll just remove Nepal, since it's not one of the more important countries.
Mukhsin was on the BIFF list, but I didn't notice that it was a sequel, so I'll replace it with Sepet.
I chose Eskiya as the representative of popular Turkish cinema. Do you think I should replace it with Hababam? Or keep both?
Would Lady Terminator be a good choice for Indonesian horror?
I forgot about Lebanon. I'll add something. Probably Capernaum. That one seems to be very popular.
I forgot that The Scent of Green Papaya was shot in France. I'll replace it with Cyclo.
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#5560

Post by Fergenaprido »

mjf314 wrote: April 10th, 2021, 1:10 am Mababangong Bangungot was just an arbitrary acclaimed Filipino film, but it could be replaced. It does have a fairly unique style, but I haven't seen a lot of Filipino films, so maybe there are better choices.
Devandeh was on the BIFF list, but near the bottom, so I wouldn't mind replacing it.
I included Sonatine as both a yakuza example and a Takeshi Kitano example (he's a fairly popular director).
Guizi lai le was on the BIFF list, but near the bottom, but it's also on a lot of lists, so I think I'll probably keep it.
The Act of Killing is the most critically acclaimed Indonesian film (although it's not Indonesian directed).
Kimi no na wa is just a popular anime film, but I was considering removing it, if I need to make room for something else.
The Turkmenistan film was on the BIFF list in the top half of the list, so I kept it.
I didn't notice that HImalaya wasn't locally directed, and it was just an arbitrary choice. I think I'll just remove Nepal, since it's not one of the more important countries.
Mukhsin was on the BIFF list, but I didn't notice that it was a sequel, so I'll replace it with Sepet.
I chose Eskiya as the representative of popular Turkish cinema. Do you think I should replace it with Hababam? Or keep both?
Would Lady Terminator be a good choice for Indonesian horror?
I forgot about Lebanon. I'll add something. Probably Capernaum. That one seems to be very popular.
I forgot that The Scent of Green Papaya was shot in France. I'll replace it with Cyclo.
I forgot you used the BIFF list as a starting point. Whoops. :D
- That makes sense about Mababangong.
- Ah, I didn't clock that Sonatine was by Kitano. That makes sense.
- I won't quibble on Act of Killing being Indonesian or not, but you seem to lump all of Southeast Asia together (see Ong-Bak vs The Raid earlier), and it's basically the same theme as Cambodia's The Missing Picture. While Cambodian cinema is rather miniscule, Indonesian cinema is large, diverse, and has a lengthy history and picking a 2011 and a 2012 film doesn't really cover that.. I was thinking of Lady Terminator since that's popular here, but I would probably prefer something more Indonesian-centric (i.e. not in English and not with American leads). Something by Putra starring Suzzanna or Barry Prima would fit the bill, though I don't -know which one. There are other directors like Djalil.
- Esikya is a crime drama, totally different from the comedies. I would keep both, as Turkish cinema is large enough to justify 4 films, I think.
- Agreed about Nepal, Lebanon, Sepet, and Cyclo.
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