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New Official List Discussion

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Torgo
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#5081

Post by Torgo »

Lakigigar wrote: July 14th, 2020, 10:45 am
Fergenaprido wrote: July 14th, 2020, 10:24 am
Lakigigar wrote: July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am Japan made more movies than Latin America during that time. Since 2000, 354 movies became official. In Japan only 19 + 54 = 71, none of them are newer than 2008, meaning zero movies from both lists since 2010. Some countries have more lists like Korea with 2, though both are dated as well. You're failing to make your point
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, especially the 354. Yes, there are no official films on Japanese country lists from the 2010s, but there are a number on other official lists. Plus, this is not an issue unique to Japan, and I don't think the remedy is adopting decade lists for each country or region. And while Korea does indeed have two lists, they're both shorter than the single Japanese list (100+100 vs 199), which is why I was looking at the number of films as opposed to the number of lists. That was my point.
Lakigigar wrote: July 14th, 2020, 12:26 amLots of directors and critics have their own official list, like Ebert. Whats their added value? If we removed it, we only lose 9 official movies.
I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Are you comparing Ebert's list to the one from Cousins?
Lakigigar wrote: July 14th, 2020, 12:26 am Sorry, but who cares about the Caucasus, if you compare them to East Asia. I'm sure 500 more Japanese and Chinese movies deserve to become official before 5 Caucasian ones. One day, we can include them, but not before Asia (and Europe] gets the Latin America treatment.
I'm not trying to compare them; you mentioned that you thought Asian cinema deserved more recognition, and I was agreeing with you, and sharing my own personal thoughts on parts of the continent that I felt were underlooked. You don't have to share my enthusiasm about them. :)
I'm on my other pc so i can make a longer post. With my older pc, i have to copy / paste characters which is annoying. (why i wasn't able to finish fok! top 250 also), but well.

The 354 films is the total for the Cinema Tropical lists from the two decade lists. Especially the second one added a bunch of films (250 ones), which is good. I love that list. It's a great list. It's why I say other nations / regions deserve to be treated like Latin American is done. There are few gaps in Latin America, aside of maybe a few country lists, but I think they're well covered already thanks to the decade Latin America lists (and the older Cien anos sin soledad (which only runs until 2000) list). Latin America is currently well covered, and done in an excellent way.

Japan however made more movies throughout the same period and the Kinema Jumpo (which is more focused on classic Japanese cinema) and Tom Vick's Asian Cinema list only have 71 movies from 2000 to 2008. Both lists are dated as well. I wouldn't remove them. What helps in Korea favour is that their cinema really started to flourish in the 21st century, which is why a large amount of films of the beginning of 21st century is covered in their lists, sometimes twice. But both lists are also dated. It's annoying to me to see that a lot of country lists are dated, but that's not to blame for ICM.

The critics lists are okay, i don't use them but they barely add new official films and more importantly are composed by one single person, most likely famous, so why is it impossible to add a list by someone a little bit less famous that covers an entire period / country / region that would fill a gap. It's not perfect, but what i'm saying is that it's been done in the past.

And I'm not against adding a Caucasus list for example. In fact, it would be great, even though i would have zero checks and not work on it (yet), but i think there are bigger gaps left yet to fill, especially contemporary cinema and East Asian cinema.

Now where I bump one of the older posts from this thread, I realize it's you! It was you all along. :ph43r:

Totally agree on this.
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#5082

Post by Lakigigar »

Okay great. I'm currently looking for more lists.

The loveHK film site has a ton of old-fashioned links, like 50 sites. Most are unfortunately either dead or gone. But i'll look further.
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#5083

Post by Lakigigar »

I found one... A book that was released in september last year that includes 36 South Korean movies from the early century to the present: The Hidden Gems: The Undiscovered Best in Korean Cinema

36 movies, 16 of them currently unofficial

list on ICM

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/the+ ... ort=checks

the book

https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Gems-Undi ... ks&sr=1-18
Film lovers from all around the world applauded Bong Joon-ho's achievement of winning the 2020 Academy Award for Best Picture with his film Parasite. This was the first time a non-English film won Best Picture in Oscar history.

Although his success has brought a lot of novel attention to the realm of Korean film, this genre is still somewhat alienated from the circle of world cinema.

As part of this important movement in Korean film, this book can act as a guide to Western audiences who are interested in Korean movies but are unsure where to start. This book includes Korean films that were released between the early 2000s and present.
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#5084

Post by dirty_score »

Lakigigar wrote: February 11th, 2021, 3:58 pm Can we please have more contemporary Asian lists? And more lists not only focused on classics, arthouse and mainstream movies?

That really annoys me a lot on ICM.

I still believe adopting the MM top 1000 list + a contemporary Japanese/Taiwanese and perhaps Chinese / Korean lists. Perhaps an Asian cult list?

Many country lists are also dated and very old.
Kinema Jumpo - newest movie only 2008
Vilsack - newest only 2007
Korea - newest only 2009
HK - newest 2011
this might suit your interest:
Timeout's The 100 Best Hong Kong Films
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#5085

Post by Onderhond »

With only 6 films from the past decade, that one isn't helping much either. Also, I think that list took the wrong To Live (though can't be sure without the original listing).
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#5086

Post by dirty_score »

Onderhond wrote: February 15th, 2021, 12:29 pm With only 6 films from the past decade, that one isn't helping much either. Also, I think that list took the wrong To Live (though can't be sure without the original listing).
To Live (1992) directed by Evans Chan is the one on the source list but you were probably thinking of To Live (1994) directed by Zhang Yimou ?
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#5087

Post by Onderhond »

dirty_score wrote: February 15th, 2021, 2:16 pm To Live (1992) directed by Evans Chan is the one on the source list but you were probably thinking of To Live (1994) directed by Zhang Yimou ?
Yeah, that's a surprising choice then (since the rest is rather safe). Cool though, hadn't heard about that one before.
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#5089

Post by Onderhond »

dirty_score wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 5:32 pm If the weird and badmovies lists had a baby (fans oh horror, cult and asian cinema will also like):
Michael Vaughn's The Ultimate Guide to Strange Cinema
This is nice. I'd rather see Calamari Wrestler than Fight Club on a cult list.
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#5090

Post by Lakigigar »

We need a new cult list yes!
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#5091

Post by Knaldskalle »

I'd be very reluctant to make any of these official. It's basically an overview of the "genre" as a whole with reviews of all the movies that fit within, whether they're any good or not (he even includes a couple that are so rare that he hasn't seen them). And as much as I like gialli, there's a lot of crap movies on those lists. I'd much prefer a short list of the best of gialli (25-50 titles) that could serve as an introduction and then Howarth lists can serve as a guide for those who want more.
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#5092

Post by Tim2460 »

Don't you all think we already have enought Italian scream Queens from the tszdt list??
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#5093

Post by Lakigigar »

Tim2460 wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:48 pm Don't you all think we already have enought Italian scream Queens from the tszdt list??
Don't you think we already have enough arthouse & classics from the 100+ lists???
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#5094

Post by jeroeno »

dirty_score wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 5:32 pm If the weird and badmovies lists had a baby (fans oh horror, cult and asian cinema will also like):
Michael Vaughn's The Ultimate Guide to Strange Cinema
That looks like an awesome list to work on. I'd vote for this list to become official (as long as no other lists become unofficial because of it off course :guns: )
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#5095

Post by Tim2460 »

Lakigigar wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:57 pm
Tim2460 wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:48 pm Don't you all think we already have enought Italian scream Queens from the tszdt list??
Don't you think we already have enough arthouse & classics from the 100+ lists???
Maybe it's me watching only Giallo to improve my TSZDT ranking but i was under the impression Giallo was a big part of the TSZDT "experience".
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#5096

Post by xianjiro »

Lakigigar wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:57 pm
Tim2460 wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:48 pm Don't you all think we already have enought Italian scream Queens from the tszdt list??
Don't you think we already have enough arthouse & classics from the 100+ lists???
pretty much yes to both
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#5097

Post by xianjiro »

Tim2460 wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 7:53 pm
Lakigigar wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:57 pm
Tim2460 wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:48 pm Don't you all think we already have enought Italian scream Queens from the tszdt list??
Don't you think we already have enough arthouse & classics from the 100+ lists???
Maybe it's me watching only Giallo to improve my TSZDT ranking but i was under the impression Giallo was a big part of the TSZDT "experience".
giallo has also been tossed around here as needing it own list for most of the years I've been on the board - and lest we forget, we've now got that EuroHorror list as well, Can't imagine it doesn't have some gialli as well, but I'm betting it's duplicative of the encyclopedic TSZDT
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#5098

Post by Knaldskalle »

Yeah, there are around 20 or so gialli on the Eurohorror list. There's a good chunk on TSZDT as well. Given that they're basically halfway between thrillers and horror, but traditionally classified as a horror subgenre, I think there are a bunch of people who are missing out because they're not interested in "horror movies."

FWIW, I'd like to see a list of poliziotteschi as well, another "subgenre" I don't know too much about.
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#5099

Post by Harco »

Last edited by Harco on February 23rd, 2021, 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
:ICM: | :letbxd:
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#5100

Post by Knaldskalle »

Harco wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 9:55 pm @ Knalds:

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/blaz ... ums/harco/
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/gial ... ook/harco/

No idea how curated they are, though.
I use the first one extensively (thanks!), but it's another case of "lock, stock and barrel." I don't know about the second one. I have it in my watchlist, but without knowing more about the genre (or the source book) I really can't judge one way or the other.
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#5101

Post by Daviddoes »

jeroeno wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 7:03 pm
dirty_score wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 5:32 pm If the weird and badmovies lists had a baby (fans oh horror, cult and asian cinema will also like):
Michael Vaughn's The Ultimate Guide to Strange Cinema
That looks like an awesome list to work on. I'd vote for this list to become official (as long as no other lists become unofficial because of it off course :guns: )
This. All of this.
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#5102

Post by kongs_speech »

What about a list of adult films? I'm thinking artistic stuff like Radley Metzger, not Cum Fart Cocktails 4. Does a legitimate list of such exist? Would be a nice counterpoint to the Pixar Recommends list. :lol:
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#5103

Post by OldAle1 »

kongs_speech wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm What about a list of adult films? I'm thinking artistic stuff like Radley Metzger, not Cum Fart Cocktails 4. Does a legitimate list of such exist? Would be a nice counterpoint to the Pixar Recommends list. :lol:
Dangerous waters man, dangerous waters.
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#5104

Post by WalterNeff »

OldAle1 wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:54 pm
kongs_speech wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm What about a list of adult films? I'm thinking artistic stuff like Radley Metzger, not Cum Fart Cocktails 4. Does a legitimate list of such exist? Would be a nice counterpoint to the Pixar Recommends list. :lol:
Dangerous waters man, dangerous waters.
Radley Metzger's The Lickerish Quartet (1970) is on the Vogel list. Can't help you beyond that.
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#5105

Post by kongs_speech »

WalterNeff wrote: February 26th, 2021, 11:35 pm
OldAle1 wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:54 pm
kongs_speech wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm What about a list of adult films? I'm thinking artistic stuff like Radley Metzger, not Cum Fart Cocktails 4. Does a legitimate list of such exist? Would be a nice counterpoint to the Pixar Recommends list. :lol:
Dangerous waters man, dangerous waters.
Radley Metzger's The Lickerish Quartet (1970) is on the Vogel list. Can't help you beyond that.
I watched Score last week and was blown away by how much it caters to my cinematic interests. A real bummer that it's not an official check. Either way, I will most assuredly seek out the rest of Metzger's oeuvre.
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#5106

Post by Ebbywebby »

"Lickerish" is actually one of the films I aim to see in the near future. I'm on a bit of a Vogel run lately....I've seen 11 films from the list since the beginning of the year. And a few others besides "Lickerish" are on my docket too.
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#5107

Post by brokenface »

kongs_speech wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm What about a list of adult films? I'm thinking artistic stuff like Radley Metzger, not Cum Fart Cocktails 4. Does a legitimate list of such exist? Would be a nice counterpoint to the Pixar Recommends list. :lol:
I'm sensing a 3rd presence in the forum :unsure:
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#5108

Post by beavis »

I just nominated The Image (1975) for DtC! Metzger is indeed in a class of his own. I haven't seen everything he made myself yet, but all I saw was special in a way. Besides the one on Vogel I think DtC and 500<400 are the way to go for now to get them official. In my capacity as a list mod for ICM I have searched for a way to get erotica like this recognized more, either by finding a pure erotica list or going the sexy/forbidden list or exploitation/cult list route, without any concrete results.

As it happens I have just today stepped back as a mod... so I can only say from the sidelines with the rest of you that, yes there is a niche there that would be welcomed by a significant portion of cinephiles as something that needs to be on ICM; but that's about it. As always with suggestions like this, it would ad a lot to the discussion if you can link to a list source (that is not the index of a book or the catalog of a publisher) ;)
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#5109

Post by xianjiro »

kongs_speech wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm What about a list of adult films?
well, as others have indicated, this topic has plenty of history around here. The only thing I can add is my understanding was that the site owners had categorically said, "no porn list". I know it seems counterintuitive given there are full monty pornos on official lists, but that's Bruce Hornsby and the Range country. "That's just the way it is". I can't say if it will ever change, but will say that discussing it hasn't gone well up to now.
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#5110

Post by kongs_speech »

xianjiro wrote: February 27th, 2021, 1:16 am
kongs_speech wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm What about a list of adult films?
well, as others have indicated, this topic has plenty of history around here. The only thing I can add is my understanding was that the site owners had categorically said, "no porn list". I know it seems counterintuitive given there are full monty pornos on official lists, but that's Bruce Hornsby and the Range country. "That's just the way it is". I can't say if it will ever change, but will say that discussing it hasn't gone well up to now.
Yeah, someone informed me privately that it had been a contentious topic in the past. I had no idea or I wouldn't have brought it up. (u)
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#5111

Post by WalterNeff »

You know, there's a lot of salacious stuff Pre-Code, just sayin'
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#5112

Post by xianjiro »

I tried to find it the prior discussion, but so far have little luck unless I use information that wouldn't be available to someone who didn't partake in the prior discussions. This topic probably provides a good intro and education though I don't admit to rereading it tonight. Too tired to go there and no personal interest.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3982
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#5113

Post by Torgo »

WalterNeff wrote: February 27th, 2021, 2:37 am You know, there's a lot of salacious stuff Pre-Code, just sayin'
I was puzzled to see you were pointing him to a, by definition, Post-Code title. Just turned the corner!
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#5114

Post by WalterNeff »

Torgo wrote: February 27th, 2021, 3:39 am
WalterNeff wrote: February 27th, 2021, 2:37 am You know, there's a lot of salacious stuff Pre-Code, just sayin'
I was puzzled to see you were pointing him to a, by definition, Post-Code title. Just turned the corner!
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#5115

Post by zuma »

beavis wrote: February 26th, 2021, 11:57 pm
As it happens I have just today stepped back as a mod
That is unfortunate. Your presence as a mod gave me hope about future official list nominations.
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#5116

Post by beavis »

There is a difference between erotica and porn. Metzger might in that case be grey area, certainly later in his career, but the subject in the broadest sense encompasses a lot of cinematic avenues including for instance teen comedy, erotic thriller, and yes also pre-code. If the subject is talked about in a non-trolling manner and sensible lists are found or hypothesized, i think ICM would be interested. I had the most hope for approach along the exploitation angle, since the confusion of erotica with porn seems to be prevalent but the broader appeal of "cult cinema" is understood... but had not yet found a list that gained support among the mods...
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#5117

Post by Mothravka »

kongs_speech wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm What about a list of adult films?
Sounds interesting to me!
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#5118

Post by dirty_score »

kongs_speech wrote: February 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm What about a list of adult films? I'm thinking artistic stuff like Radley Metzger, not Cum Fart Cocktails 4. Does a legitimate list of such exist? Would be a nice counterpoint to the Pixar Recommends list. :lol:
Tim Dirks' The History of Sex in Cinema
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#5119

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

beavis wrote: February 26th, 2021, 11:57 pm I just nominated The Image (1975) for DtC! Metzger is indeed in a class of his own. I haven't seen everything he made myself yet, but all I saw was special in a way. Besides the one on Vogel I think DtC and 500<400 are the way to go for now to get them official. In my capacity as a list mod for ICM I have searched for a way to get erotica like this recognized more, either by finding a pure erotica list or going the sexy/forbidden list or exploitation/cult list route, without any concrete results.

As it happens I have just today stepped back as a mod... so I can only say from the sidelines with the rest of you that, yes there is a niche there that would be welcomed by a significant portion of cinephiles as something that needs to be on ICM; but that's about it. As always with suggestions like this, it would ad a lot to the discussion if you can link to a list source (that is not the index of a book or the catalog of a publisher) ;)
Sorry to hear you stepped back also. For the others; I stepped back too this month, but didn't announce that yet.
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#5120

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

On topic: I too think a erotica list, maybe as part of an explanation list, would be a nice addition to iCM for those cinephiles interested in this kind of cinema. But honestly in this PC climate... damn I sound like a Trumps supporter...., I don't see it happening soon. Cause while erotica is indeed different than porn, many can't or won't make that distinction. Which would make adding such a list a risky business, so I can understand the resistance against it from Marijn as it having effect on the total reputation of his site.
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