Bug or MASSIVE IMDb change?

[Torgo]

Lately, I've been observing the IMDb Top 1000 quite carefully and visit the following link once a day to check how many movies there are left for me to see:
http://www.imdb.com/search/title?groups ... gs=exclude

.. depending on how much of a nerd you are (and if you vote on IMDb at all), you will get a more or less long list. Today, the titles there have changed drastically for me; while earlier the titles in the lower ranks (900-1000) had a rating of 7.6, now they have a rating of 7.0. Also, I immediately noticed all mafia movies on top vanished - every Indian and Turkish one, that is (no need to start a discussion here, you know which movies are meant). (Also, except 3 Idiots, probably the most-voted Indian IMDb-killer.)
Just having a glance at the kind of movies, I noticed they had pretty many votes, so I sorted the whole Top 1000 by the number of votes. And guess what ..
http://www.imdb.com/search/title?groups ... _votes,asc

.. the vote minimum seems to have changed from 3,000 to 25,000. This eradicates a fundamental part of the Top 1000, plenty, plenty of old movies and those in a foreign language. Nearly all movies left for me now are from 1975 or newer and tend to be from the USA/UK. (Looks like approximately 5 are not.)


Now I tried the same for the Top 250 and was even more shocked. Look at it.
http://www.imdb.com/search/title?groups ... _votes,asc

.. apparently, the same thing has been done for the Top 250, the queen of the internet's movie lists - and not in a good way at all, if you think about which titles are likely to disappear at a vote minimum of 25,000. Tarkovski, Kurosawa, Bergman, Fellini, Kobayashi et al. will have a hard time.


Oh, that would be bad, I worked on these lists not just since iCM, but for years.



PS: It helps to know that this "search-list" is always updated earlier than the final version to be seen at http://www.imdb.com/chart/top ; for Europe it's about noon, while the final list gets updated in the late evening and sometimes not even daily.

[mightysparks]

It would suck giant balls if that's a permanent change

[Torgo]

Actually, the changes on the Top 250 apparently wouldn't be that big since most of the movies got plenty votes there just by the fact that they made it into the list; the Top 1000, on the other hand, is hardly recognizable.

[bal3x]

WTF! I would rather see those "mafia films" included here and there instead of essentially removing foreign films! Obviously some sort of other filtering options could have been introduced instead of such a simple, but massive change... Surely there must be something on IMDb boards if indeed this is a permanent change they made! "1975 or newer and tend to be from the USA/UK" - that really sucks!

[brokenface]

Hmm. A worrying development. Though I thought the vote minimum was higher than 3000 - more like 8000 (at least for the top 250). Either way 25000 would definitely cause the top 250 to decline in quality. Though it might have benefit of making it harder for fanboys of new films to get them on the list when the film has just come out.

Wonder if there is a change to the genre & decade lists as well? Will be a big update coming to ICM soon, if so..

[kierkegaardian]

You're telling me August Rush, I Am Sam and the Bucket List shouldn't be considered all-time classics?

[ormazd]

IMDB lists are a good place to start your film odyssey, but that's about it. Ignore them!

[brokenface]

IMDB lists are a good place to start your film odyssey, but that's about it. Ignore them!

Point is that if they wipe out many of the more interesting older/foreign films, people starting their odyssey will find it harder to come across them..Won't somebody think of the children

[jeroeno]

American mafia ?

[lampadatriste]

IMDB lists are a good place to start your film odyssey, but that's about it. Ignore them!

Point is that if they wipe out many of the more interesting older/foreign films, people starting their odyssey will find it harder to come across them..Won't somebody think of the children

+1

[Life as Fiction]

The Top 250 is still set to a minimum of 3,000 votes, at least officially.

[bobbybrown]

.. apparently, the same thing has been done for the Top 250, the queen of the internet's movie lists - and not in a good way at all, if you think about which titles are likely to disappear at a vote minimum of 25,000. Tarkovski, Kurosawa, Bergman, Fellini, Kobayashi et al. will have a hard time.

KIA:

134. Ikiru (1952) 22,059
144. The Kid (1921) 23,716
146. Le salaire de la peur (1953) 19,712
157. Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans (1927) 16,198
166. Les diaboliques (1955) 21,400
180. The Best Years of Our Lives (1946) 22,572
183. Judgment at Nuremberg (1961) 20,687
191. Seppuku (1962) 8,762
197. La battaglia di Algeri (1966) 19,844
201. La strada (1954) 24,667
204. La passion de Jeanne d'Arc (1928) 15,551
206. Sherlock Jr. (1924) 12,460
210. Fanny och Alexander (1982) 21,177
214. Kind Hearts and Coronets (1949) 17,592
219. Le notti di Cabiria (1957) 16,218
228. Tôkyô monogatari (1953) 12,517
229. Idi i smotri (1985) 13,367
231. Tengoku to jigoku (1963) 10,284
241. Anatomy of a Murder (1959) 23,267
244. Le samouraï (1967) 15,223
246. Kumonosu-jô (1957) 15,943

[bal3x]

Good job, huh?

[Lilarcor]

I'm not completely against raising the number of votes for it to make the top 250 list. It is a popularity list after all. 25k is probably too much but 10k could reduce some problems maybe while keeping old popular non-English films there.

[allisoncm]

Good that mafia is gone. Bad that the canon-type movies have disappeared.

[Life as Fiction]

I'm not completely against raising the number of votes for it to make the top 250 list. It is a popularity list after all. 25k is probably too much but 10k could reduce some problems maybe while keeping old popular non-English films there.

Wait, I don't understand what you're trying to say... You want more "American mafia" influence?

[Kowry]

I'm not completely against raising the number of votes for it to make the top 250 list. It is a popularity list after all. 25k is probably too much but 10k could reduce some problems maybe while keeping old popular non-English films there.

Currently the only film with fever than 10k votes is Seppuku, so it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem to me.

[mjf314]

I'm not completely against raising the number of votes for it to make the top 250 list. It is a popularity list after all. 25k is probably too much but 10k could reduce some problems maybe while keeping old popular non-English films there.

Currently the only film with fever than 10k votes is Seppuku, so it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem to me.

Actually removing Seppuku would be a huge problem.

[Lilarcor]

I'm not completely against raising the number of votes for it to make the top 250 list. It is a popularity list after all. 25k is probably too much but 10k could reduce some problems maybe while keeping old popular non-English films there.

Wait, I don't understand what you're trying to say... You want more "American mafia" influence?

And I'm not sure if you're serious... I quickly glanced at bobbybrown's list and it seems that raising the number of votes to 10k would only remove Seppuku of the non-English older films. Obviously there's a problem of newer foreign films making the list with the bar set higher, which would give American films a head-start. But it might reduce the amount of non-American mafia films making it into the list?

[Life as Fiction]

I'm not completely against raising the number of votes for it to make the top 250 list. It is a popularity list after all. 25k is probably too much but 10k could reduce some problems maybe while keeping old popular non-English films there.

Wait, I don't understand what you're trying to say... You want more "American mafia" influence?

And I'm not sure if you're serious... I quickly glanced at bobbybrown's list and it seems that raising the number of votes to 10k would only remove Seppuku of the non-English older films. Obviously there's a problem of newer foreign films making the list with the bar set higher, which would give American films a head-start. But it might reduce the amount of non-American mafia films making it into the list?

You're suggesting we sacrifice the future entries of really respected but under the radar films for the sake of some mafia films that come and ago.

Also, if you are specific about Bollywood films, you're out of luck. Indians speak English, and there are a billion plus of them. No minimum amount of votes keep them out.

[Kowry]

I'm not completely against raising the number of votes for it to make the top 250 list. It is a popularity list after all. 25k is probably too much but 10k could reduce some problems maybe while keeping old popular non-English films there.

Currently the only film with fever than 10k votes is Seppuku, so it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem to me.

Actually removing Seppuku would be a huge problem.

Eh, sorry, I wasn't very clear. I meant that the current 'low' barrier doesn't hold seem to cause any problems, because it isn't a flood of obscure foreign films now anyway. Seppuku is great.

To Lilarcor: Which mafia films would be dropped if the vote barrier was raised? The most recent 'mafia film' on the list, 3 Idiots, has over 36k votes.

[Lilarcor]

To be honest I haven't paid a lot of attention to the imdb lists so perhaps I should just shut up. The problems of "mafia" films might've been exaggerated on this forum, and I agree that making it harder for potential newer foreign films would certainly be a big negative. From what I've been reading though it seems like only mafia has gotten into the list in recent time.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

I'm not completely against raising the number of votes for it to make the top 250 list. It is a popularity list after all. 25k is probably too much but 10k could reduce some problems maybe while keeping old popular non-English films there.

Currently the only film with fever than 10k votes is Seppuku, so it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem to me.

Actually removing Seppuku would be a huge problem.

Only because doing so wouldn't accomplish anything. I don't see what problem increasing the threshold on the Top 250 is solving. If it solved an actual problem and Seppuku was the one film that happened to get caught up in it then too bad( though I do think it's an excellent film). There are already plenty of great films below the threshold to get into the Top 250 that get excluded for low vote totals, but it's worthwhile to get a decent sample size and minimize the mess that a 500 or 1000 vote threshold would cause. I don't see any problems with the current 3000 limit though.

[Life as Fiction]

The problems of "mafia" films might've been exaggerated on this forum

Very much so. It's a silly notion to think that only America is capable of championing its mediocre mainstream cinema. India speaks English, so they use IMDb. If the Chinese spoke English by default, I'm sure we'd be complaining about "Chinese mafia" and in China, they'd complain about the "American mafia."

[PeacefulAnarchy]

To Lilarcor: Which mafia films would be dropped if the vote barrier was raised? The most recent 'mafia film' on the list, 3 Idiots, has over 36k votes.

Is Intouchables also a mafia film then?
US users 911 7.6
Non-US users 28,588 8.5

vs
US users 2,792 7.4
Non-US users 24,988 8.3

what about El secreto de sus ojos?
US users 5,751 8.1
Non-US users 36,568 8.2

or Das weiße Band
US users 3,814 7.8
Non-US users 19,332 7.8

compare those to Hababam Sinifi maybe you'll see the difference.
US users 514 6.8
Non-US users 9,656 9.3

[Life as Fiction]

Look, if you consider 3 Idiots a "mafia" film, then you have to consider a significant chunk of the American blockbusters as well.

It's the highest grossing film of all-time in India. Proportionately, you can expect it to be loved and rated high.

[Life as Fiction]

To Lilarcor: Which mafia films would be dropped if the vote barrier was raised? The most recent 'mafia film' on the list, 3 Idiots, has over 36k votes.

Is Intouchables also a mafia film then?
US users 911 7.6
Non-US users 28,588 8.5

vs
US users 2,792 7.4
Non-US users 24,988 8.3

what about El secreto de sus ojos?
US users 5,751 8.1
Non-US users 36,568 8.2

or Das weiße Band
US users 3,814 7.8
Non-US users 19,332 7.8

compare those to Hababam Sinifi maybe you'll see the difference.
US users 514 6.8
Non-US users 9,656 9.3

IMDb is a global site, so why does this breakdown even matter?

[bal3x]

The problems of "mafia" films might've been exaggerated on this forum

Very much so. It's a silly notion to think that only America is capable of championing its mediocre mainstream cinema. India speaks English, so they use IMDb. If the Chinese spoke English by default, I'm sure we'd be complaining about "Chinese mafia" and in China, they'd complain about the "American mafia."

Exactly! And what this change is doing is not actually fighting "mafia" films since they will still get in anyway (perhaps would be a bit more difficult for Turkish ones to get in, but 25K is no obstacle for Indian voters...) so it can only harm more "obscure" non-English films like Seppuku, which is only one example, I'm pretty sure there are other similar films that could make it into the top 250, but will not because of this change.

[bal3x]

Look, if you consider 3 Idiots a "mafia" film, then you have to consider a significant chunk of the American blockbusters as well.

I've been saying all along that Nolan has his own mafia! Nobody believes me!

[PeacefulAnarchy]

To Lilarcor: Which mafia films would be dropped if the vote barrier was raised? The most recent 'mafia film' on the list, 3 Idiots, has over 36k votes.

Is Intouchables also a mafia film then?
US users 911 7.6
Non-US users 28,588 8.5

vs
US users 2,792 7.4
Non-US users 24,988 8.3

what about El secreto de sus ojos?
US users 5,751 8.1
Non-US users 36,568 8.2

or Das weiße Band
US users 3,814 7.8
Non-US users 19,332 7.8

compare those to Hababam Sinifi maybe you'll see the difference.
US users 514 6.8
Non-US users 9,656 9.3

IMDb is a global site, so why does this breakdown even matter?

It's the only breakdown the site gives. If I could give you country breakdowns I would. If "mafia film" has any meaning at all it's a film that is only available and enjoyed by those in its country of origin. The Turkish comedies we all love to complain about have never been released outside of Turkey and are, as far as we can tell overwhelmingly voted on by Turks who give the films scores way out of line with the votes of US voters.

I think the term mafia is stupid but if people are going to use it then it should have a stricter meaning than "foreign film I don't like."

[Life as Fiction]

As far as I know, you have a very good appreciation for global cinema, Peaceful, so I'm glad you agree with my viewpoint.

In short: Fanboys exist in all countries.

[Lilarcor]

The problems of "mafia" films might've been exaggerated on this forum

Very much so. It's a silly notion to think that only America is capable of championing its mediocre mainstream cinema. India speaks English, so they use IMDb. If the Chinese spoke English by default, I'm sure we'd be complaining about "Chinese mafia" and in China, they'd complain about the "American mafia."

Just a curious side-question: Do the Chinese have their own widely used movie database? It would be interesting to see how non-Chinese films would do on a "top 250" list from such a site. Also interesting to see what the (majority of) Chinese people consider as their best films.

[Kowry]

Look, if you consider 3 Idiots a "mafia" film, then you have to consider a significant chunk of the American blockbusters as well.

It's the highest grossing film of all-time in India. Proportionately, you can expect it to be loved and rated high.

Well, I was primarily referring to 3 Idiots as a mafia film as I understood that some forum users wanted to get rid of Turkish/Bollywood films and I wanted to point out that raising the barrier wouldn't make a difference in regards to them. I used the term 'mafia film' because it's already used widely on this forum and everyone knows what films are meant by that term. And yes, you could consider many American films on the list mafia films. But, I must admit, that I would probably enjoy most American mafia films (not meaning Godfather etc ) more than those Turkish/Indian ones - although I also must admit that I have been avoiding them so I can't say for sure. The supposed poorer quality (which is naturally subjective anyway) doesn't of course make those films any more mafia films.

I think I could rephrase that above bit a bit clearer, but I'm too tired to do so at the moment. Going to bed now.

[mjf314]

Increasing the minimum to 10,000 would actually have a big effect on the list, because a higher m value means the list is weighted more. Not only Seppuku, but many films in the 10,000-30,000 range would drop off the list, and the ones that don't drop off would be ranked much lower than they are now.

[Lilarcor]

Let's just agree on that my 10k idea was a big dumb idea by a big dumb Norwegian and move on please.

[allisoncm]

I'm all for Seppuku dropping off the list!

[Limedebois]

I really don't get this "mafia" term. Or "foreign"... Aren't we all foreign to each others? The problem with the Indian films, call it "indian mafia" if you want, it's Indians use a lot imdb, look at the stats. And I image there are a lot of young and high/middle class. They have internet and there is a all Bollywood style for them (these films are not pure Bollywood, but contemporary stories). India is almost a continent by itself so it's huge. In contrary there's no japanese or China mafia because they're not in imdb, such as French. But if you consider fans of *** but not a member of this community (fan of Japanese films, Chinese, Norwegian...) I don't consider that "a mafia". It's ironic when you talk about Norwegian mafia, right? There's no Norwegian mafia on imbd but here yes (correct me if I'm wrong). I have no problem with this, it reflects the various taste of the forum. In imdb, that's a problem, but when you know it, you're vigilante and you don't make attention this films. Or you watch them, has a little respect for the big part of this community who's from India, than you can give your rating and take part of a new leveling.

About Intouchables, it can't be "mafia film" or it's "european mafia film". Success is all around Europe, not only in France (and French don't use imdb). If us don't like it, it's perhaps cultural, I've read that us thought the film was racist... That explains the bad rank. It's not "mafia" it's cultural. A lot of us films aren't even distributed in Europe. Pure us culture: it could be an 8 for us users, but the rare "foreigners" will rank them lower... And Intouchable is racist?^ So, what this "mafia thing" is? Indians can rank high their films, I've no problem with that. Satyajit Ray is more loved outside of his own country, cause he filmed in the european taste. Same for Wong Kar-wai, Woody Allen, Almodovar or... Claire Denis^. A film or a director doesn't reflect a genuine domestic culture. In France, the popular culture is Louis de Fines, Fernandel, Bourvil, les Bronzés, Alain Chabat, Luc Besson, in India it's Aamir Khan... At least, imdb is a way to know it^ even if we are not interest in it. But we have to respect that some "foreign" communities don't share our tastes. Imdb lists are subjectives, it won't change, mafia or not mafia.

[Life as Fiction]

The problems of "mafia" films might've been exaggerated on this forum

Very much so. It's a silly notion to think that only America is capable of championing its mediocre mainstream cinema. India speaks English, so they use IMDb. If the Chinese spoke English by default, I'm sure we'd be complaining about "Chinese mafia" and in China, they'd complain about the "American mafia."

Just a curious side-question: Do the Chinese have their own widely used movie database? It would be interesting to see how non-Chinese films would do on a "top 250" list from such a site. Also interesting to see what the (majority of) Chinese people consider as their best films.

It's not so much as their own database as it is that they have their own movie sites. Same goes for Koreans (Naver/Daum) and Japanese (Yahoo).

Let's take, for example, Tsui Hark's Flying Swords of Dragon Gate from 2011:

IMDb: 6.0 on 1,062 votes vs. Douban: 6.7 on 114,531 votes

And then compare 3 Idiots from 2009:

IMDb: 8.2 on 36,232 votes vs. Bollywood Hungama: 9.0 on 339 votes

The primary differential for this is that English isn't native to China, so they must have their own site. Indians can just use IMDb since it's better than anything local (as far as I know).

Many people misunderstand this, including this ridiculous argument I was having on the iCM 2000s section. Turkey isn't too different. Their alphabet is relatively close to English, and a sizable portion of their population use IMDb because English is very natural there.

[Life as Fiction]

With Koreans, it's the same... Let's look at Sunny, which was the second most successful film in Korea last year:

IMDb: 7.5 on 519 votes vs. Daum: 9.2 on 3,859 votes and Naver: 9.1 on 16,457 votes

[mjf314]

I found Daum's list of top-rated films: http://movie.daum.net/ranking/point_ran ... History.do

Is there a list of top-rated films on any of the other websites (Douban, Naver, Bollywood Hungama)?