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Do you think 2010s country/continent lists should be official?

Do you think 2010s country/continent lists should be considered for adoption?

Yes
23
56%
Only continent lists, but not country lists
6
15%
Only country lists, but not continent lists
2
5%
No
10
24%
Don't care
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 41

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#41

Post by mjf314 »

Onderhond wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:43 pm
mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 7:18 pm There are only about 9 possible options: Australia, China, Denmark, Hong Kong, Italy, Japan, Peru, Philippines, South Korea.
I don't understand this to be honest. What's wrong with all the other countries in the world?
Not every country has a good list. Those are the countries that have a good 2010s (or 21st century) list that I know about.
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#42

Post by Lakigigar »

Large countries and continents, yes.
Obscure countries, rather no.
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#43

Post by Teproc »

Lakigigar wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:54 pm Large countries and continents, yes.
Obscure countries, rather no.
I guess it's time to find a 2010s list for Antarctica then.
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#44

Post by Lakigigar »

Teproc wrote: April 26th, 2021, 9:01 pm
Lakigigar wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:54 pm Large countries and continents, yes.
Obscure countries, rather no.
I guess it's time to find a 2010s list for Antarctica then.
In terms of population of course.
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#45

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:53 pm Not every country has a good list. Those are the countries that have a good 2010s (or 21st century) list that I know about.
Ah, from a practical point of view ...

Again, I wouldn't mind seeing all three added, the Schilling one being by far the best of the three, but I'd find it rather hard to defend considering the current adoption rules.
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#46

Post by mjf314 »

I just found this 2010s Indian list: https://www.filmcompanion.in/fc-decades ... index.html

125 films in total, and unlike most Indian lists it covers a variety of languages. If I'm understanding correctly, the Hindi films were selected by 5 curators, and the other languages were each selected by 1 person.
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#47

Post by Torgo »

125 from India just from the 2010s .. it's warranted by the size and popularity as a film nation and the 2010s were a quite busy decade for Indian cinema, but I'm not sure if folks at ICM are so crazy for so much new Indian input.

Just some figures for:
Golden Lotus Award list
I'm in the Top 500 for this one with 3 checks out of 67. 5 is enough for #171, 7 checks are enough for #77, 12 (again, out of 67) are enough for the Top 30. Less than 10 people have a bronze on this list.

Outlook Bollywood list
Way more popular, but also here, from 83 checks in the list, 7 are enough for the Top 1000, 15 are enough for the Top 500. About 100 people bronzed this one. It should be added though that this is one of our oldest lists, unchanged since 2009 and probably worked on by more users during that decade.

If the plan is to make ICM ready for the 2020s by spending a 2010s/contemporary list for every larger film country, sure, India shouldn't be missed. If we're going to stick with 3 or 4 lists every 3 or 4 months, I'd rank the priority of this issue behind other nations and missing genre lists, subgenre lists, mood lists, filmmaker's favorites and so on. ;)

mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 7:18 pm I think Peru and Philippines aren't popular enough to justify a 2nd list.
Funny, I looked at the Pinoy list earlier .. :whistling:

I don't want to estimate how many people use ICM on a regular basis, but of the 216,000 profiles, 1,000 have any check in our Filipino list at all.
2 checks are enough for #231, 3 for #156, 4 for #115, 40 people of the whole page have made it to 10 checks out of 100 ..
Not saying anything against Philippine cinema, we need every film region covered on ICM, but if a 2nd list of this is adopted before Mark Schilling, this could mean a new civil war in the Official List thread. :lol:
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#48

Post by kongs_speech »

mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 9:26 pm I just found this 2010s Indian list: https://www.filmcompanion.in/fc-decades ... index.html

125 films in total, and unlike most Indian lists it covers a variety of languages. If I'm understanding correctly, the Hindi films were selected by 5 curators, and the other languages were each selected by 1 person.
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#49

Post by OldAle1 »

To be fair the Pinoy list is one of the most recent adoptions - takes some time. But with a couple of Lino Brocka films on Criterion, and Lav Diaz continuing to win awards, I'm sure the list will pick up a few more fans over time. Filipino cinema is pretty varied too - apart from big-budget action I think a pretty fair segment of what's popular in film, from arthouse to various genres, is there.

I took a glance at the Indian lists, kinda like them actually - most of the few films I've seen that are there are worthy IMO, and a lot of the films I've heard of look interesting, and don't seem to be the typical 3 hour masala type films. But yeah 125 is a lot.

Here's the real question at the heart of all this discussion in my mind though, and the last few pages of this thread really bring it home:

Do we want icheckmovies to be a site that is flattering the prejudices and interests of the majority who are already using it - and enticing newer members with those same tastes, OR

Do we want it to hopefully attract cineastes who are interested in something that isn't being represented yet, or not well represented?


Of course ideally both things should be possible at the same time. But in reality one is always compromising something.
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#50

Post by mjf314 »

OldAle1 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:33 pm Do we want icheckmovies to be a site that is flattering the prejudices and interests of the majority who are already using it - and enticing newer members with those same tastes, OR

Do we want it to hopefully attract cineastes who are interested in something that isn't being represented yet, or not well represented?


Of course ideally both things should be possible at the same time. But in reality one is always compromising something.
I think a combination of both is ideal. For example, I'd support adopting the Douban list, in the hope of attracting more Chinese members.

The IMDb Indian top 250 is another possible option. It includes 136 films from the 2010s. iCM members might think it's too long, but if it'll attract Indian members, it might be a good choice.
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#51

Post by kongs_speech »

OldAle1 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:33 pm Do we want icheckmovies to be a site that is flattering the prejudices and interests of the majority who are already using it - and enticing newer members with those same tastes
Kinda, actually. It's good to expand in some cases, but I don't think we should adopt things that are of little interest simply because they're not thoroughly covered by pre-existing official lists. There are many contemporary Indian films on the IMDb lists, and they're very unpopular here. I don't think most of the vocal user base is really clamoring for more of that.
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#52

Post by OldAle1 »

kongs_speech wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:58 pm
OldAle1 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:33 pm Do we want icheckmovies to be a site that is flattering the prejudices and interests of the majority who are already using it - and enticing newer members with those same tastes
Kinda, actually. It's good to expand in some cases, but I don't think we should adopt things that are of little interest simply because they're not thoroughly covered by pre-existing official lists. There are many contemporary Indian films on the IMDb lists, and they're very unpopular here. I don't think most of the vocal user base is really clamoring for more of that.
But how do we KNOW they're uninteresting? We may know that they're uninteresting to the current userbase - but is that the only group of people we care about?

I for one probably would never work on the IMDb Indian list - I might watch the older (say, pre-1990) stuff I haven't seen, but the newer stuff - it's about as useful as the Top 250 is for newer American films to me, which is not at all. But if it brings more people to the site, maybe it's worth thinking about. That is, if bringing more people to the site is a goal, and I really don't know what the goals are frankly. But usually you want to grow your website.
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#53

Post by mjf314 »

kongs_speech wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:58 pm There are many contemporary Indian films on the IMDb lists, and they're very unpopular here. I don't think most of the vocal user base is really clamoring for more of that.
What about the non-vocal users? There are a lot of iCM users who watch and like modern Indian films.
Popular modern Indian films
My Name Is Khan (2010) (2438 checks, 160 favorites)
The Lunchbox (2013) (1259 checks, 146 favorites)
Gangs of Wasseypur (2012) (1353 checks, 134 favorites)
Udaan (2010) (991 checks, 117 favorites)
Dangal (2016) (1654 checks, 114 favorites)
PK (2014) (1504 checks, 102 favorites)
Barfi! (2012) (1225 checks, 100 favorites)
Kahaani (2012) (1050 checks, 84 favorites)
Zindagi Na Milegi Dobara (2011) (1105 checks, 83 favorites)
Delhi Belly (2011) (627 checks, 51 favorites)
Andhadhun (2018) (668 checks, 48 favorites)
OMG: Oh My God! (2012) (576 checks, 48 favorites)
English Vinglish (2012) (513 checks, 44 favorites)
Queen (2014) (470 checks, 44 favorites)
Ship of Theseus (2012) (252 checks, 38 favorites)
Drishyam (2015) (561 checks, 35 favorites)
Paan Singh Tomar (2012) (479 checks, 35 favorites)
Bhaag Milkha Bhaag (2013) (524 checks, 33 favorites)
Vicky Donor (2012) (488 checks, 31 favorites)
Just a single decade of Indian cinema is roughly as popular as the entire history of Czech cinema (judging by check counts and favorite counts on iCM).
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#54

Post by xianjiro »

I think I'd rather watch a modern Indian film over Czech new wave - plus the Indian films tend to be something I can actually get without expending as much effort. If I wasn't doing so much other stuff right now, I could get a fake bronze on the IMDb Indian Top 250. Could probably score that by the end of May. Would need months to get the Golden list to bronze. Honestly, not sure I'll ever actually get there on that list.
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#55

Post by 72aicm »

If popularity is the most important criteria then the box office lists should be expanded to a top 5000. I thought better of icheckmovies though.
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#56

Post by Fergenaprido »

72aicm wrote: April 26th, 2021, 1:40 pm
flavo5000 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 1:13 pm Well, you have to remember that while Japan has one country list (which is a little ridiculous considering much smaller countries have more than one), there are also anime and samurai lists that pretty much all Japanese as well plus the Tom Vick Asian Cinema list that has a big chunk of Japan. On the China side, it has two lists representing plus the LoveHKFilm list and Tom Vick again.

If I look at just Japan in the '70s, it looks like there are between 40 and 50 films represented on the existing lists which seems about right to me.
The Japanese list consist of 199 entries so it’s only Italy and the US that’s better represented. Especially if you consider overlap from the countries with more than one list. And as you say, Japan have several genre lists as well.

I think it’s arbitrary to cherry pick one decade to choose to make official. It’s better to look for new country lists that’s recently made and where it looks like there might be updates in the future.
One of my side projects is cataloguing how many official films there are for each country. I'm doing this in two parts: 1) adding every single official film to my database to get the country (and other data) readily available, to them be able to create more lists like "all official portuguese movies" etc. 2) focusing solely on the country-specific lists (except the country awards lists and the subgenres like samurai, anime, and spaghetti western) and tabulating how many "spots" are allotted to each country.

For 1), I'm about 2/3 done, with every film on at least 5 lists accounted for (except maybe a few that crossed that threshold in the last few months).
For 2), I'm about 80% done. Here's the data for the top 30 countries so far:

387 - Hong Kong* (203 LoveHKFilm + 64 HKFA + 37 Golden Horse + 74 AFG* + 4 BIFF + 5 Empire World)
373 - Italy (250 Il Grande + 100 FilmTV + 15 UNESCO + 8 Empire World)
370 - Japan* (199 Kinema Junpo + 134 AFG* + 25 BIFF + 12 Empire World)
302 - India* (125 Film Archive + 83 Outlook Bollywood + 63 AFG* + 10 BIFF + 15 UNESCO + 6 Empire World)
299 - South Korea* (100 KOFA + 101 AMP + 66 AFG* + 15 BIFF + 15 UNESCO + 2 Empire World)
253 - Poland (105 Lodz + 130 Polski + 15 UNESCO + 3 Empire World)
231 - France (100 Time Out + 105 Times + 26 Empire World)
220 - Spain (102 Caimán + 100 Nickel Odeón + 15 UESCO + 3 Empire World)
214 - Russia (102 Russian Guild + 106 Empire Russia + 5 Empire World + 1 BIFF)
202 - United Kingdom (102 BFI + 100 Time Out)
198 - Mexico* (100 Sector Cine + 27 Cien años + 22 CT2000s* + 32 CT2010s* + 15 UNESCO + 2 Empire World)
188 - Brazil* (101 Abraccine + 19 Cien años + 20 CT2000s* + 29 CT2010s* + 17 UNESCO + 2 Empire World)
188 - Iran* (121 Film Magazine + 47 AFG* + 19 BIFF + 1 Empire World)
148 - Sweden (130 FLM + 15 UNESCO + 3 Empire World)
147 - Canada* (134 TIFF + 13 UNESCO*)
140 - China* (23 HKFA + 28 Golden Horse + 59 AFG* + 12 BIFF + 15 UNESCO + 3 Empire World)
127 - Germany (102 Kinemathekverbund + 15 UNESCO + 10 Empire World)
119 - Australia (100 Scott Hocking + 18 UNESCO + 1 Empire World)
118 - Philippines* (100 Pinoy Rebyu + 14 AFG* + 4 BIFF)
113 - Turkey (102 Hürriyet + 11 AFG)
112 - Taiwan (17 HKFA + 39 Golden Horse + 44 AFG + 11 BIFF + 1 Empire World)
108 - Finland (92 Yle News + 15 UNESCO + 1 Empire World)
107 - Chile* (62 CineChile + 6 Cien años + 7 CT2000s* + 25 CT2010s* + 7 UNESCO*)
101 - United States (100 AFI + 1 CT2010s)
86 - Argentina* (25 Cien años + 34 CT2000s* + 27 CT2010s*)
82 - Czechia* (65 Golden Foundation* + 15 UNESCO + 2 Empire World)
82 - Greece (60 Cine.gr + 22 UNESCO)
76 - Israel* (40 Maariv + 20 AFG* + 15 UNESCO + 1 Empire World)
73 - Portugal (58 Público + 15 UNESCO)
68 - Hungary (53 Magyar + 15 UNESCO)

Notes:
For each list, I've counted all films as being from that country, even if they're not (i.e. that French film on the Czech list will count for Czechia, not France). Also, I'm not counting the number of films, but the number of spots, so Spring in a Small Town being on the HKFA, Golden Horse, Asian Field Guide, and UNESCO lists counts as 4 spots, not 1. Thus, I'm counting the number of spots a country has on icm lists, not the number of films, as I think this is a better method of calculating "representation" for countries. Lastly, I'm counting number of spots, not number of lists; people often bring up that Japan only has 1 list, but it's got 199 entries on it. That's the second-largest single-country list (after Italy), and contains roughly the same number of spots as most countries with two dedicated lists (No, this doesn't mean I don't think Japan deserves another list).

Empire's World cinema list is in the Websites tab. For the USA, I could probably include the NFR list (856 films) and the rest of the AFI lists, but I didn't bother since American films are well-represented pretty much everywhere on icm.

* I still need to finish cataloguing: UNESCO (177 films to go), both Cinema Tropical lists (20 + 69), Asian Field Guide (224), and Golden Czech & Slovak (36). This also includes the new BIFF list, but is missing the recent updates to UNESCO (the Canadian and Ecuadorian additions) and AFG (the minor update I just did today, which added 2 Japanese spots, 1 Indian, and 1 Iraqi). I hope to finish this sometime this year (or at least all the lists but UNESCO & AFG).
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#57

Post by beavis »

Everybody keeps talking about Japan, but France clearly needs a bigger and better list!
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#58

Post by Onderhond »

OldAle1 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:33 pm Do we want it to hopefully attract cineastes who are interested in something that isn't being represented yet, or not well represented?
I'm definitely in this camp. A more diverse audience is always a plus, it certainly helps against bubbles and echo chambers.
72aicm wrote: April 27th, 2021, 5:11 am If popularity is the most important criteria then the box office lists should be expanded to a top 5000. I thought better of icheckmovies though.
Well, since lists by polling are often preferred, ICM does put a lot of focus on popularity. Other than that, it's easy to forget "popular" films also have very dedicated fans who love & know their stuff, so I don't see why they should be ignored by ICM.
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#59

Post by Onderhond »

Fergenaprido wrote: April 27th, 2021, 5:28 am 370 - Japan* (199 Kinema Junpo + 134 AFG* + 25 BIFF + 12 Empire World)
If I understand it correct, Japan is going to get a nice little jump once you count the Paste Anime and the Samurai list.

And while the 199 Kinema Junpo list may be nice for some, I'd rather see that split in two different lists so it can cover a broader range. I mean, Kinema Junpo can make a top 1000 and it would still be the same type of films ad nauseum. Sadly that's a numbers game that doesn't tell you too much about coverage.
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#60

Post by sol »

mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 7:18 pmThere's an Australian 21st century list, but it only includes 12 films from the 2010s, so it's not really worth it.
Curious about what your logic is there. I would probably agree that the 00s more so than the 10s have given us great Australian movies. Also, if it is indeed meant to be a 21st century list, maybe it will get updated later down the line with more films from the 10s.

I just find it weird that the currently Australian Official List has no films made during the past 16 years. That to me is a gap.
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#61

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:49 pm I think a combination of both is ideal. For example, I'd support adopting the Douban list, in the hope of attracting more Chinese members.
I'm not up to date on how ICM is set up technically, but I can say that reaching Chinese people will probably require ICM to set up a version of their site there locally. Otherwise it's gonna be slow as hell to reach (and ICM isn't the fastest site to begin with).

For comparison, the average page load on my blog from Chinese users is around 10s per page. That's not a pleasant UX :)
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#62

Post by mjf314 »

sol wrote: April 27th, 2021, 8:47 am
mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 7:18 pmThere's an Australian 21st century list, but it only includes 12 films from the 2010s, so it's not really worth it.
Curious about what your logic is there. I would probably agree that the 00s more so than the 10s have given us great Australian movies. Also, if it is indeed meant to be a 21st century list, maybe it will get updated later down the line with more films from the 10s.

I just find it weird that the currently Australian Official List has no films made during the past 16 years. That to me is a gap.
I forgot that the official list ends in 2005. In that case maybe it's worth it, but I think a top 25 is still a little bit small. A top 50 would be better.

Actually the ballots are available, so we could expand the list if we wanted to.
Onderhond wrote: April 27th, 2021, 8:55 am
mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:49 pm I think a combination of both is ideal. For example, I'd support adopting the Douban list, in the hope of attracting more Chinese members.
I'm not up to date on how ICM is set up technically, but I can say that reaching Chinese people will probably require ICM to set up a version of their site there locally. Otherwise it's gonna be slow as hell to reach (and ICM isn't the fastest site to begin with).

For comparison, the average page load on my blog from Chinese users is around 10s per page. That's not a pleasant UX :)
We can attract Chinese people who live outside China. There are about 50 million of them. Japanese and Korean people might be interested as well, because I think the Douban list has more Japanese and Korean films than the IMDb list.
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#63

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 27th, 2021, 9:05 am We can attract Chinese people who live outside China. There are about 50 million of them. Japanese and Korean people might be interested as well, because I think the Douban list has more Japanese and Korean films than the IMDb list.
Well sure, just saying that there are technical variables at play when you want to reach certain audiences :)

I would welcome an influx of more nationalities and other types of films fans on ICM.
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#64

Post by Fergenaprido »

Onderhond wrote: April 27th, 2021, 7:46 am
Fergenaprido wrote: April 27th, 2021, 5:28 am 370 - Japan* (199 Kinema Junpo + 134 AFG* + 25 BIFF + 12 Empire World)
If I understand it correct, Japan is going to get a nice little jump once you count the Paste Anime and the Samurai list.
No, I won't be adding the anime and samurai lists. I still have a bunch of Japanese films on the AFG list to add, though, which will push the number up to around 400 I think.
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#65

Post by sol »

mjf314 wrote: April 27th, 2021, 9:05 am
sol wrote: April 27th, 2021, 8:47 am
mjf314 wrote: April 26th, 2021, 7:18 pmThere's an Australian 21st century list, but it only includes 12 films from the 2010s, so it's not really worth it.
Curious about what your logic is there. I would probably agree that the 00s more so than the 10s have given us great Australian movies. Also, if it is indeed meant to be a 21st century list, maybe it will get updated later down the line with more films from the 10s.

I just find it weird that the currently Australian Official List has no films made during the past 16 years. That to me is a gap.
I forgot that the official list ends in 2005. In that case maybe it's worth it, but I think a top 25 is still a little bit small. A top 50 would be better.

Actually the ballots are available, so we could expand the list if we wanted to.
I'm happy to help with this, if you need help. Let me know. I would love a Top 50 of 21st Century Australian Cinema list. (l)
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#66

Post by 3eyes »

I just wish I knew if I was voting for 2010s or 21st century list. A lot of localized decade lists (2000s, 2020s, etc) boggles the mind. Some continental/regional 21st century lists, to be updated as time goes by makes more sense.

Another consideration is how often existing lists are updated. I thought Kinema Junpo was way out of date until I looked just now.
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#67

Post by mjf314 »

sol wrote: April 27th, 2021, 12:46 pm
mjf314 wrote: April 27th, 2021, 9:05 am
sol wrote: April 27th, 2021, 8:47 am
Curious about what your logic is there. I would probably agree that the 00s more so than the 10s have given us great Australian movies. Also, if it is indeed meant to be a 21st century list, maybe it will get updated later down the line with more films from the 10s.

I just find it weird that the currently Australian Official List has no films made during the past 16 years. That to me is a gap.
I forgot that the official list ends in 2005. In that case maybe it's worth it, but I think a top 25 is still a little bit small. A top 50 would be better.

Actually the ballots are available, so we could expand the list if we wanted to.
I'm happy to help with this, if you need help. Let me know. I would love a Top 50 of 21st Century Australian Cinema list. (l)
I just noticed that I already made a longer version of the list, but I never added it to iCM. I'll add it today.

Edit: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/flic ... ry/mjf314/
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#68

Post by sol »

mjf314 wrote: April 27th, 2021, 7:46 pm
sol wrote: April 27th, 2021, 12:46 pm
mjf314 wrote: April 27th, 2021, 9:05 am

I forgot that the official list ends in 2005. In that case maybe it's worth it, but I think a top 25 is still a little bit small. A top 50 would be better.

Actually the ballots are available, so we could expand the list if we wanted to.
I'm happy to help with this, if you need help. Let me know. I would love a Top 50 of 21st Century Australian Cinema list. (l)
I just noticed that I already made a longer version of the list, but I never added it to iCM. I'll add it today.

Edit: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/flic ... ry/mjf314/
Very cool list. Other than Happy Feet sneaking in, that is. :lol: Favourited. B)
Former IMDb message boards user // iCM | IMDb | Letterboxd | My top 750 films // Long live the new flesh!
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