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TSPDT updates

#1161

Post by monk-time » February 8th, 2018, 12:38 pm

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#1162

Post by max-scl » February 8th, 2018, 1:48 pm

438 -> 438 But jumped 82 places.

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#1163

Post by Gorro » February 8th, 2018, 2:06 pm

711 -> 705, jumping from rank 57 to 53.

Not actively working on that list, but my main goal each year is to keep up with what comes out this year (I watch about 150 to 200 films of each year), so I naturally watch most of what shows up on the list.

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#1164

Post by weirdboy » February 8th, 2018, 2:56 pm

Good luck seeing Ex Libris, internet.

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#1165

Post by Tasselfoot » February 8th, 2018, 3:38 pm

Lost 3 official checks, lost 3 total checks. 529 to 526. Rank went from 333 to 306, though.

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#1166

Post by nimimerkillinen » February 8th, 2018, 4:46 pm

Nathan Treadway on Feb 8 2018, 02:56:58 AM wrote:
nimimerkillinen on Feb 8 2018, 02:42:54 AM wrote:
Nathan Treadway on Feb 7 2018, 02:39:58 PM wrote:Here's this years:

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/21st ... waynathan/
cheers, i guess there isnt list for all years total then? :(
Not sure. I can probably put it together. It's only been 1000 for a few years. Most of what was on it before then probably still is.
that would be great!

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#1167

Post by Darth Nevets » February 8th, 2018, 4:53 pm

flaiky on Feb 8 2018, 05:09:25 AM wrote:I lost about 5 checks on the list, but rose 35 places. I guess others lost more.
Lost 20 checks on the list, and more strikingly had 15 films I've seen go unofficial.

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#1168

Post by tobias » February 9th, 2018, 3:32 pm

cinewest on Feb 7 2018, 07:44:54 AM wrote:Personally, I continue to be baffled by the high regard given to films like Lost In Translation (perhaps my least favorite of the top 50) and Eternal Sunshine (which at least has the genius of Charlie Kaufman and Jim Carey providing a real boost), not to mention Before Sunset, Sideways, Boyhood, The Royal Tennenbaums, and Punch Drunk Love (OK, this one also has genius). Now add Elephant, and Social Network, and you pretty much have 20% of the list devoted to contemporary American Culture in all its quirky dis-functionality.
All of these are not only reflective of american culture.

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#1169

Post by cinewest » February 9th, 2018, 5:52 pm

tobias on Feb 9 2018, 08:32:46 AM wrote:
cinewest on Feb 7 2018, 07:44:54 AM wrote:Personally, I continue to be baffled by the high regard given to films like Lost In Translation (perhaps my least favorite of the top 50) and Eternal Sunshine (which at least has the genius of Charlie Kaufman and Jim Carey providing a real boost), not to mention Before Sunset, Sideways, Boyhood, The Royal Tennenbaums, and Punch Drunk Love (OK, this one also has genius). Now add Elephant, and Social Network, and you pretty much have 20% of the list devoted to contemporary American Culture in all its quirky dis-functionality.
All of these are not only reflective of american culture.
Tobias, my friend, do you not find any truth in what I say?

My posts are long enough without taking the time to be hyper careful about what I am putting out there. Think of my initial comments as conversation starters, and if discussing what I say sounds interesting or inviting, feel free to jump in.

But please examine the entirety of what I write first.

My main point is that as much as I find the list useful (and the films at the top worthwhile) it is clear to me that there is a heavy cultural bias at play (and "culture" describes many things: ethnicity, background, life experience, and attitudes about things, including what movies should be).

I have already acknowledged that, for various reasons, a consensus list such as the two on TSPDT would be difficult to improve upon, but that doesn't mean that a critique of them is invalid.

After all, what is the point of compiling such a list, and what defines its value or purpose, moreover, what meaning can be made of it?

I can see from the vast majority of posts, here, that most people on the board are most interested in tabulating and sharing how many movies have seen, or have yet to see. But why? What is the intention, or goal, here, and what is its achievement supposed to say?

My own interest in the TSPDT list (or any list of proposed "greats") has first and foremost to do with my curiosity about what a very large group of professional film critics think are the best movies ever made. And, in studying the list, the first thing I tried to do was understand why the choices were what they were.

To do that, I have looked at the historical context, and the way the films on the list speak to and about film history, as well as the culture of movies and moviemaking. And this inevitably led me to think about who and what was defining those things, as well as determining who and what was important (or exemplary). This naturally prompted me to consider what biases existed, what biases were being perpetuated, and how?

I am not driven by some social or political ax to grind. But I am a someone who has been passionate about movies for much of my life, and not simply because they are entertaining. Mostly, I am interested in film as an art form, and while some uses of the medium attract and engage me more than others, I like to keep an open mind (or keep opening my mind) to films that work in other ways. I am also interested in movies as a cultural anthropologist or film historian might be, and as a traveler, and I have cultivated all of these interests for the better part of my 58 years on Earth.

Coming back to your comment, I am not trying to say that the films I named are exclusively reflective of American culture, but that they share something similar: a resonance, a way of perceiving and expressing that probably matches the majority of people who were polled (who happen to be mostly American or British, mostly white, mostly male, and probably mostly of a certain age and background).

That doesn't invalidate the list, but it does reveal preference, and not necessarily one based on film quality (level of artistic achievement), or rather, to put it another way, one that is heavily biased for films that share the kind of film qualities the voters have an affinity with.

Take a good look at just the top 50 or 100 films on the list, and see if you can determine how many stand out as being the best of their kind (both distinctive and exemplary), whether they happen to be your favorite kind of film or not. Assuming you have come kind of criteria for determining the level of artistic achievement (anyone who rates films or has preferences, surely does, though artistic quality may not be what is being judged), try to bear that in mind as you go through them, and then let me know if you can't see the bias.
Last edited by cinewest on February 10th, 2018, 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#1170

Post by St. Gloede » February 9th, 2018, 6:18 pm

cinewest on Feb 9 2018, 10:52:13 AM wrote:I can see from the vast majority of posts, here, that most people on the board are most interested in tabulating and sharing how many they have seen, or have yet to see. But why? What is the intention, or goal, here, and what is its achievement supposed to say?
With a slight fear of pointing out the obvious, this forum is affiliated with iCheckMovies and many posters here are drawn to this forum from that perspective: I.e. checking films, getting awards for their progress and completing lists. This may be a primary, secondary (or much further down the list) reasons for exploring the films on any given list.

I don't personally have much interest in hearing amounts or percentages, and prefer to hear opinions about the works themselves - but I understand where these people are coming from. They are here for the game, and they enjoy discussing the game.

The only place this frustrates me a little are in the challenges where there sometimes are not a single indication of whether or not a film is even liked or disliked, but in threads like this I fully expect it.

And I would like to say, as others have pointed out before, the game is a great way of letting the players expand their horizons and be exposed to more and more films, and thus slowly understand different cultures, modes, ideas, etc. In this way it can actually be great.

(As for the general criticism I agree, but at the same time it is on the critics and filmmakers of these countries to pick up their act and start making lists - and in some cases also care what foreigners think about their cinema).

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#1171

Post by cinewest » February 9th, 2018, 7:01 pm

St. Gloede on Feb 9 2018, 11:18:02 AM wrote:
cinewest on Feb 9 2018, 10:52:13 AM wrote:I can see from the vast majority of posts, here, that most people on the board are most interested in tabulating and sharing how many they have seen, or have yet to see. But why? What is the intention, or goal, here, and what is its achievement supposed to say?
With a slight fear of pointing out the obvious, this forum is affiliated with iCheckMovies and many posters here are drawn to this forum from that perspective: I.e. checking films, getting awards for their progress and completing lists. This may be a primary, secondary (or much further down the list) reasons for exploring the films on any given list.

I don't personally have much interest in hearing amounts or percentages, and prefer to hear opinions about the works themselves - but I understand where these people are coming from. They are here for the game, and they enjoy discussing the game.

The only place this frustrates me a little are in the challenges where there sometimes are not a single indication of whether or not a film is even liked or disliked, but in threads like this I fully expect it.

And I would like to say, as others have pointed out before, the game is a great way of letting the players expand their horizons and be exposed to more and more films, and thus slowly understand different cultures, modes, ideas, etc. In this way it can actually be great.

(As for the general criticism I agree, but at the same time it is on the critics and filmmakers of these countries to pick up their act and start making lists - and in some cases also care what foreigners think about their cinema).
Good points, all.

And, more and more I can see that I don't quite fit in with the social culture, here.

No worries. I have made some good connections (including yours), and I will either learn how to enjoy the time I spend here more, or I will spend the time elsewhere.

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#1172

Post by max-scl » February 9th, 2018, 7:53 pm

I don't see any way the list can be fixed. Even if you add more ballots from around the world, what are the movies that a brazilian critic and a chinese critic have in common? The american movies and the art movies from big festivals like Cannes. As long as the list m,ade out of critic's ballots it's going to be this way. And since most of the critics are anglophones, the bias is even greater.

Maybe they should consider things other than ballots, maybe international and festival awards from around the globe. But that's seems complicated and don't think the guy running this list would want to do that.

This is why I'm in favour of adding more lists from more countries.

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#1173

Post by AdamH » February 10th, 2018, 12:33 am

cinewest on Feb 9 2018, 12:01:15 PM wrote:
St. Gloede on Feb 9 2018, 11:18:02 AM wrote:
cinewest on Feb 9 2018, 10:52:13 AM wrote:I can see from the vast majority of posts, here, that most people on the board are most interested in tabulating and sharing how many they have seen, or have yet to see. But why? What is the intention, or goal, here, and what is its achievement supposed to say?
With a slight fear of pointing out the obvious, this forum is affiliated with iCheckMovies and many posters here are drawn to this forum from that perspective: I.e. checking films, getting awards for their progress and completing lists. This may be a primary, secondary (or much further down the list) reasons for exploring the films on any given list.

I don't personally have much interest in hearing amounts or percentages, and prefer to hear opinions about the works themselves - but I understand where these people are coming from. They are here for the game, and they enjoy discussing the game.

The only place this frustrates me a little are in the challenges where there sometimes are not a single indication of whether or not a film is even liked or disliked, but in threads like this I fully expect it.

And I would like to say, as others have pointed out before, the game is a great way of letting the players expand their horizons and be exposed to more and more films, and thus slowly understand different cultures, modes, ideas, etc. In this way it can actually be great.

(As for the general criticism I agree, but at the same time it is on the critics and filmmakers of these countries to pick up their act and start making lists - and in some cases also care what foreigners think about their cinema).
Good points, all.

And, more and more I can see that I don't quite fit in with the social culture, here.

No worries. I have made some good connections (including yours), and I will either learn how to enjoy the time I spend here more, or I will spend the time elsewhere.
The more people posting reviews, opinions etc, the better the site is.

I feel like people sometimes interpret things as being people only caring about numbers and checks but I think people just use the lists and numbers as a fun side thing of watching films and as a way of finding more films that they might not otherwise watch.

Topics and posts with proper discussion about films are always very interesting to read and the most important thing I think.

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#1174

Post by tobias » February 10th, 2018, 4:02 am

@cinewest - I think you overinterpreted my words. I am neither American nor British and English is actually only my 3rd language. I am not a fan of the current developments and I'm not saying that there isn't a bias but American cinema is the most favored cinema allaround the world (maybe not in a select few countries). I'm 21 and almost all people my age think that german cinema sucks (which is partly caused by actual problems in the german film industry and partly bias).

These films are (somewhat sadly) also entirely reflective of people in Europe, maybe not in Bulgaria (but possibly also in Bulgaria), but certainly in Germany, France, Denmark, Spain, etc. I'm not a fan of The Social Network but it's not "American Culture in all its quirky dis-functionality", none of the films you listed are. They are just as applicable to Europe and to most developed parts of the world. In fact the one film that deals with a distinctly american problem (Elephant) I find the most relatable still. Same is with Boyhood which is much more relatable to me than heaps of german films because it deals with my generation (and the conflicts adressed are entirely the same). It would be more relatable if it was german but such a film doesn't exist.

I have said before that I think TSPDT is watered down by the mainstream but I think many films on the top 50 are exemplary (in the 21st century) and there is a fair bit of variance (from Tie Xi Qu to Wall-e).

Personally I'm not here for discussing number of films seen but films themselves. I also do make films myself and take interest in them from a number of different angles, aesthetically, socially, politically, philosophically, also antrophologically, etc. but I don't see the use in critiquing the list like that. In the end it's based on what Bill thinks is a reputable source which I assume is at least to a degree somewhat generalistic, that is most people into cinema would respect the choices. Are certain sources perhaps overlooked due to language barriers (or similar)? Probably. Is the list that far off from what a consensus actually looks like? I doubt it. Again, I don't live in America but people here watch the same films as Americans. I was at the cinema 2 days ago (in northern Germany, in a city that is many centuries older than the entire American state) and all 3 films that played were english (though dubbed) and the audience was all older than me (and keep in mind that younger people are even more anglophile than older people). Does the list match with what I personally consider the best? Partly, partly not. Russian Ark, Spirited Away, Carol, The Tree of Life, Before Sunrise, Elephant and more I think are excellent (I also quite like Lost in Translation). Hurt Locker or The Social Network (and others) I think have no buisness being in a top 100.

But in the end there is no objective way to determine a film quality. Certainly certain groups or rather mindsets are overrepresented but some of that is taking over the world. Not the praise for Yi Yi but certainly the praise for some of the more popular films. It's a sorry state of affairs but that is the world we live in. It is not that is has been distorted by a poor mirror as you seem to indicate, I do think the list is more reflective of a lot of things than you think, not because it covers the entire bandwidth of possible or possibly appreciated expression but because what it covers is slowly eating up the rest and thus Elephant has become very relatable also for me because the same world, the same alienation, the same sugary dream of the end of the world existed, also here as everywhere (in the developed world). I do not feel represented because I am not but it is much TOO relatable. Outside of America this is not the representation of the factual world around one, it's a second world, a dreamworld that one ironically distances oneself from but yet unconciously accepts entirely. This is what leads to Brexit and what will lead to the EU falling apart. UTTER DETACHMENT. But the detachment is not a lie, the detachment exists. European critics might be even more likely to praise US films than US critics. People here watch US films all the time, they know more about the american elections than about the elections in their neighboring countries and yet Donald Trump matters jackshit here (factually that is, in the minds of people he matters all too much). People here don't even know who is the prime minister of the Czech Republic, they probably only have a vague idea of what is going on in Poland, they know jackshit about what is happening in France (and how it is connected to Germany) - though probably they know Macron who was presented in the media as a popstar, a savior of France who would reform the economy to our (german) liking - which means wage dumping until France is "competitive" with Germany (which already dumped the wages). This mindset, this narrative is all vanity. I doubt they know who is the prime minister of Denmark or Belgium, probably not the Netherlands either. Do they know that the elections in Italy could be the curtain call for the EU? Of course not. The only thing they know about Italy is that you can go for holiday there and their food and designer products. The social and political situation? Who cares (yes, this attitude is entirely emblematic of my fellow countrymen, some of them should be called Americans, not Germans)!? And what do they know of Saudi Arabia (where we sell a lot of weapons) or China (which is soon to be the largest world power, led by a authoritarian one-party system) or Japan (which is still largely homogenous and possibly the most technizised country in the world)? Probably next to nothing and it's getting worse and worse. In such a detached world a highly anglocentric list could not be misrepresentative of what people (make themselves) believe. Is it slightly misrepresentative? Surely. But overall it can't be too much off from what one would call "critical consensus" (a word I rather despise for its shallow and authoritarian nature).

I know in America they discuss a lot about groups, particularly about old white men, right (this seems to be your implication at least)? I propose a contrary argument. This way of life is the way that all the other groups have appropriated for themselves, they are also a kind of "old white men" (tm), only a slightly different flavour. They do not want to change anything significant, they only want to be on top. What is my argument is that when it comes to heritage or identity the list might not be representative, but when it comes to mindset I think it is in the very end. In the end I think Marx was right. What separates people is not cultural identity but wealth. But he possibly overestimated their capabilities to realizes this. A poor old white man who sleeps in the streets is surely not more priveleged or represented in the list than a rich black, female broker (though of course they are probably rare), quite the contrary.

- Though I do think we're heading right into a giant crash so a lot is going to change. One can't close ones eyes forever.

When it comes to the list in the end it's not too bad. It has Tie Xi Qu, it has The Gleaners and I, it has Yi Yi, it has Silent Light, it has The Tree of Life, it has A.I., it has Russian Ark, it has Werckmeister Harmonies, it has In the Mood for Love, it has more than empitness and it acesses more than only one way of life. In our world maybe pipe dreams of a select few academics, sure, but existant pipe dreams in the very least and above all pipe dreams that deal not with gossip but with the world around oneself and with perceiving it. I could not find a better way to describe what I think cinema truly signifies. What is the danger today is films about films. Films that only exist because of and deal with other films (maybe not on the outside but surely on the inside). This is not a recent development but today this kind of media culture is even more pervasive and it follows people everywhere. To the toilet, to work, to activities with friends, even to peoples dreams (personally I do not posess a smarphone but everyone around me wants me to buy one). Of course other dreams do yet exist, films like Mamame or Yeelen or Don't Touch the Axe or The Romance of Astrea and Celadon, films like Mädchen in Uniform or The End of Summer or In the White City or Die Artisten unter der Zirkuskuppel: ratlos or many more.

I once made a list of such films that I consider entirely unique in one way or the other. To me each of these films is a dream of another world. In the intro I quited Raul Ruiz for further elaboration about the idea, most importantly the sentence: "In short these are films that can not respond to the question “what is the movie about”." Maybe that interests you. I included films regardless of how much or little I liked them but of course there is a bias, also strongly coloured by what I have seen: https://letterboxd.com/tobi196/list/sin ... onological

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#1175

Post by cinewest » February 10th, 2018, 4:29 am

max-scl on Feb 9 2018, 12:53:54 PM wrote:I don't see any way the list can be fixed. Even if you add more ballots from around the world, what are the movies that a brazilian critic and a chinese critic have in common? The american movies and the art movies from big festivals like Cannes. As long as the list m,ade out of critic's ballots it's going to be this way. And since most of the critics are anglophones, the bias is even greater.

Maybe they should consider things other than ballots, maybe international and festival awards from around the globe. But that's seems complicated and don't think the guy running this list would want to do that.

This is why I'm in favour of adding more lists from more countries.
I agree with your observations, and know that the curator of the list has been doing exactly what you're in favor of, though this year he seemed to add more "populist" critics than anything else, particularly in regards to the TSPDT 1000, so now films like Ghostbusters have knocked out films like Amour.

Including more international critics may be more fair in one sense, but having seen the taste of many international critics,* I think that the list could become less interesting rather than more-so.

*yes, there has been an Americanization of taste around the world due to the way American exports have seized markets everywhere, and what dominates foreign markets isn't the best that America has to offer.

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#1176

Post by cinewest » February 10th, 2018, 5:20 am

@Tobias,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. The main reason I respond to your posts is that I have learned I can expect that from you.

I also pretty much agree with everything you say, too, and not only about the list.

I have traveled extensively in the world, and lived in 3 countries abroad (Costa Rica, Brazil, and now China), and what you say about the influence, even pervasiveness of American culture is very true (which is why having more international critics participate probably won't make the list more diverse).

But Globalism has swung back towards Nationalism (even more-so, tribalism), and you are right that a major shake up looms not too far in the future. The question is, what will come out of it? Will a new expansion of consciousness result, or will humans become more de-evolved, the way they appear in most dystopian visions.

Controlling wealth and power and maintaining the existing power structures is certainly a major impetus, but so is maintaining cultural and tribal identities, which most people relate to and understand (and which Globalism seemed to be threatening).

Interesting to hear that you believe Europeans know very little about the world beyond their borders (except for America). I have always thought that they know much more than the average American, if only because European countries are surrounded by and more connected to other nations, but perhaps my perception has everything to do with who I have come into contact with, which tend to be people that are decidedly more international.
I can assure you that the average American lives in a vast, all consuming bubble and knows next to nothing about the rest of the world, except in terms of what has been imported.

As for the two TSPDT lists, I have acknowledged and championed the variety, as well as the quality in general, but that doesn't invalidate my critique, which is based on my perception that there is an overabundance of comparably lesser* (though not bad) Hollywood genre films, and Auteur fandom on the TSPDT 1000, and an overrepresentation of American Indies on the 21st Century list, and this is true not only in terms of the total numbers, but in terms of their placement in the list.

*comparably lesser to more outstanding films made by those not in preferred groups, many of whom are working in a language other than English.

I look forward to taking a look at your list of "singular cinema." Cheers.
Last edited by cinewest on February 10th, 2018, 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#1177

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » February 10th, 2018, 6:03 am

tobias on Feb 9 2018, 09:02:23 PM wrote:@cinewest - I think you overinterpreted my words. I am neither American nor British and English is actually only my 3rd language. I am not a fan of the current developments and I'm not saying that there isn't a bias but American cinema is the most favored cinema allaround the world (maybe not in a select few countries). I'm 21 and almost all people my age think that german cinema sucks (which is partly caused by actual problems in the german film industry and partly bias).

These films are (somewhat sadly) also entirely reflective of people in Europe, maybe not in Bulgaria (but possibly also in Bulgaria), but certainly in Germany, France, Denmark, Spain, etc. I'm not a fan of The Social Network but it's not "American Culture in all its quirky dis-functionality", none of the films you listed are. They are just as applicable to Europe and to most developed parts of the world. In fact the one film that deals with a distinctly american problem (Elephant) I find the most relatable still. Same is with Boyhood which is much more relatable to me than heaps of german films because it deals with my generation (and the conflicts adressed are entirely the same). It would be more relatable if it was german but such a film doesn't exist.

I have said before that I think TSPDT is watered down by the mainstream but I think many films on the top 50 are exemplary (in the 21st century) and there is a fair bit of variance (from Tie Xi Qu to Wall-e).

Personally I'm not here for discussing number of films seen but films themselves. I also do make films myself and take interest in them from a number of different angles, aesthetically, socially, politically, philosophically, also antrophologically, etc. but I don't see the use in critiquing the list like that. In the end it's based on what Bill thinks is a reputable source which I assume is at least to a degree somewhat generalistic, that is most people into cinema would respect the choices. Are certain sources perhaps overlooked due to language barriers (or similar)? Probably. Is the list that far off from what a consensus actually looks like? I doubt it. Again, I don't live in America but people here watch the same films as Americans. I was at the cinema 2 days ago (in northern Germany, in a city that is many centuries older than the entire American state) and all 3 films that played were english (though dubbed) and the audience was all older than me (and keep in mind that younger people are even more anglophile than older people). Does the list match with what I personally consider the best? Partly, partly not. Russian Ark, Spirited Away, Carol, The Tree of Life, Before Sunrise, Elephant and more I think are excellent (I also quite like Lost in Translation). Hurt Locker or The Social Network (and others) I think have no buisness being in a top 100.

But in the end there is no objective way to determine a film quality. Certainly certain groups or rather mindsets are overrepresented but some of that is taking over the world. Not the praise for Yi Yi but certainly the praise for some of the more popular films. It's a sorry state of affairs but that is the world we live in. It is not that is has been distorted by a poor mirror as you seem to indicate, I do think the list is more reflective of a lot of things than you think, not because it covers the entire bandwidth of possible or possibly appreciated expression but because what it covers is slowly eating up the rest and thus Elephant has become very relatable also for me because the same world, the same alienation, the same sugary dream of the end of the world existed, also here as everywhere (in the developed world). I do not feel represented because I am not but it is much TOO relatable. Outside of America this is not the representation of the factual world around one, it's a second world, a dreamworld that one ironically distances oneself from but yet unconciously accepts entirely. This is what leads to Brexit and what will lead to the EU falling apart. UTTER DETACHMENT. But the detachment is not a lie, the detachment exists. European critics might be even more likely to praise US films than US critics. People here watch US films all the time, they know more about the american elections than about the elections in their neighboring countries and yet Donald Trump matters jackshit here (factually that is, in the minds of people he matters all too much). People here don't even know who is the prime minister of the Czech Republic, they probably only have a vague idea of what is going on in Poland, they know jackshit about what is happening in France (and how it is connected to Germany) - though probably they know Macron who was presented in the media as a popstar, a savior of France who would reform the economy to our (german) liking - which means wage dumping until France is "competitive" with Germany (which already dumped the wages). This mindset, this narrative is all vanity. I doubt they know who is the prime minister of Denmark or Belgium, probably not the Netherlands either. Do they know that the elections in Italy could be the curtain call for the EU? Of course not. The only thing they know about Italy is that you can go for holiday there and their food and designer products. The social and political situation? Who cares (yes, this attitude is entirely emblematic of my fellow countrymen, some of them should be called Americans, not Germans)!? And what do they know of Saudi Arabia (where we sell a lot of weapons) or China (which is soon to be the largest world power, led by a authoritarian one-party system) or Japan (which is still largely homogenous and possibly the most technizised country in the world)? Probably next to nothing and it's getting worse and worse. In such a detached world a highly anglocentric list could not be misrepresentative of what people (make themselves) believe. Is it slightly misrepresentative? Surely. But overall it can't be too much off from what one would call "critical consensus" (a word I rather despise for its shallow and authoritarian nature).

I know in America they discuss a lot about groups, particularly about old white men, right (this seems to be your implication at least)? I propose a contrary argument. This way of life is the way that all the other groups have appropriated for themselves, they are also a kind of "old white men" (tm), only a slightly different flavour. They do not want to change anything significant, they only want to be on top. What is my argument is that when it comes to heritage or identity the list might not be representative, but when it comes to mindset I think it is in the very end. In the end I think Marx was right. What separates people is not cultural identity but wealth. But he possibly overestimated their capabilities to realizes this. A poor old white man who sleeps in the streets is surely not more priveleged or represented in the list than a rich black, female broker (though of course they are probably rare), quite the contrary.

- Though I do think we're heading right into a giant crash so a lot is going to change. One can't close ones eyes forever.

When it comes to the list in the end it's not too bad. It has Tie Xi Qu, it has The Gleaners and I, it has Yi Yi, it has Silent Light, it has The Tree of Life, it has A.I., it has Russian Ark, it has Werckmeister Harmonies, it has In the Mood for Love, it has more than empitness and it acesses more than only one way of life. In our world maybe pipe dreams of a select few academics, sure, but existant pipe dreams in the very least and above all pipe dreams that deal not with gossip but with the world around oneself and with perceiving it. I could not find a better way to describe what I think cinema truly signifies. What is the danger today is films about films. Films that only exist because of and deal with other films (maybe not on the outside but surely on the inside). This is not a recent development but today this kind of media culture is even more pervasive and it follows people everywhere. To the toilet, to work, to activities with friends, even to peoples dreams (personally I do not posess a smarphone but everyone around me wants me to buy one). Of course other dreams do yet exist, films like Mamame or Yeelen or Don't Touch the Axe or The Romance of Astrea and Celadon, films like Mädchen in Uniform or The End of Summer or In the White City or Die Artisten unter der Zirkuskuppel: ratlos or many more.

I once made a list of such films that I consider entirely unique in one way or the other. To me each of these films is a dream of another world. In the intro I quited Raul Ruiz for further elaboration about the idea, most importantly the sentence: "In short these are films that can not respond to the question “what is the movie about”." Maybe that interests you. I included films regardless of how much or little I liked them but of course there is a bias, also strongly coloured by what I have seen: https://letterboxd.com/tobi196/list/sin ... onological
That's one of the most beautifully perceptive and fascinating pieces I have had the fortune to read on the internet in a long time, Tobias. I don't quite know how to properly reply and do your words justice but you really made me think and appreciate the issues you approach in a new light. I look forward to looking through that list you shared.
That's all, folks!

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#1178

Post by tobias » February 10th, 2018, 6:39 am

cinewest on Feb 9 2018, 10:20:08 PM wrote:But Globalism has swung back towards Nationalism (even more-so, tribalism), and you are right that a major shake up looms not too far in the future. The question is, what will come out of it? Will a new expansion of consciousness result, or will humans become more de-evolved, the way they appear in most dystopian visions.

Controlling wealth and power and maintaining the existing power structures is certainly a major impetus, but so is maintaining cultural and tribal identities, which most people relate to and understand (and which Globalism seemed to be threatening).

Interesting to hear that you believe Europeans know very little about the world beyond their borders (except for America). I have always thought that they know much more than the average American, if only because European countries are surrounded by and more connected to other nations, but perhaps my perception has everything to do with who I have come into contact with, which tend to be people that are decidedly more international.
I can assure you that the average American lives in a vast, all consuming bubble and knows next to nothing about the rest of the world, except in terms of what has been imported.
Yes, nationalism is on the rise. In America many people make the mistake to compare Trump to the new right in Europe. People call trump a fascist, I think that's a bad joke, he's not sophisticated enough to be a fascist and too much of a buisness-man. Le Pen on the other hand is the closest thing I've ever seen to modern national socialism. She and the FN are still disorganized (as became evident towards the closing period of the presidential elections) but overall they have a clear agenda. I think this is misunderstood in America too where the so called right is full of buisnessmen and lobbyists. In Europe some of the new "right" parties discovered the social axis though which is why in the end it is uncertain if calling them right-wing is really the right idea. Le Pen demanded retirement with 60 and protectionism to help local buisnesses. Such a programme of anti-gloablism with socialist flavour (against the elites) and law and order I think has a potential of about 25 % or more most places in Europe. But while this might not sound dramatic to an American, you have to keep in mind that most of continental Europe has proportional systems (France has an extra special 2-round system though). 25 % in just about all countries means largest or 2nd largest party and in many cases building a government against such parties can become impossible (see also the end ofthe Weimar Republic). In Germany our "new-right" (or whatever you want to call that sway of party) has not yet fully discovered this social dimension, though I fear they are just about to do so. I don't want to go into all political details but what I wonder is when the choice inbetween cheap imported products and American media on one side and real nationalist isolation/protectionism on the other side comes if people would really opt for the renationalisation. I somewhat doubt it. But of course it is deeply connected to the economic developments. If people fear for their wealth and well being they will do almost anything. In this case I'm unsure about the importance of cultural and tribal identities. It seems to only possibly matter more than cheap producsts from all around the world in a time of crisis (or at least perceived crisis) and even then I'm unsure, though the choice for tribalism seems conceivable.

As for europeans geographic awareness, it's a relative matter. Compared to Americans they probably on average are more aware but my perception is not that people truly care too much about the world outside their country (apart from America) besides superficialities. This possibly differs inbetween countries though and also importantly inbetween regions. Many of the border-regions should be more aware of the outside world than the center-country. It's not necesarilly correlated to the size though. Switzerland for instance is in many ways highly nationalist, so is Denmark (Denmark is also from my experience the most americanized non-english country I know though of course the America they associate with is the cosmopolitan America of the media, not the countryside of Texas). They are also in some other ways very internationalist though (think buisness and high awareness of multiple languages).

As for my list I hope you will not be disappointed by the relatively small variety so far and the relatively large array of films that appear in TSPDT & S&S but the list is of course very much limited by what I've seen and I always asked myself if I had seen anything that was comparable and if I considered the film to be all its own which is of course quite limiting.

@Roger - thanks for the kind words!
Last edited by tobias on February 10th, 2018, 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#1179

Post by xianjiro » February 10th, 2018, 12:24 pm

So, here's a question, how do the forum's favorites (poll currently underway) stack up against something the TSPDT and/or 21st Century and some of the bigger lists which poll a wider audience (of critics)? I'm sure, that while subjective none-the-less, we'd be able to quantify things like English-medium vs other languages, US vs European vs other countries, decade breakdown, etc.

It's my impression that we do a pretty good job of bringing diversity to our lists. No, it's not perfect and it would be great to invite even more participation from the iCM user base.

However, as far as lists go, I think our results stand up against other Internet forum lists and certainly deserve official status, especially given that shrinking participation in one or two lists and the obvious bent towards recent/American productions of another couple official lists.

The best way to highlight diversity is to create a list which does just that.
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#1180

Post by St. Gloede » February 10th, 2018, 5:29 pm

cinewest on Feb 9 2018, 12:01:15 PM wrote:And, more and more I can see that I don't quite fit in with the social culture, here.
I wouldn't worry about this too much, with the large amount of posters coming to the forum from IMDb and other forums over the last year the demographics shifted quite a bit, and we are having more and more great discussions.

I would also encourage you to start threads for anything you would find it interesting to discuss.

--

I would also add that I love your long dissection, Tobias, a great read and with no real disagreements (perhaps only a few nuances to be asserted).

--

As for the overall discussions of films from different cultures. I think that if Asia had a similar film culture to Europe, sadly they don't seem to, more lists from Asia could bring out more shared favorites from this region. But if this is not the case, then yes, more diverse list would likely bring more of the same or even assert the "bias" - which is an incredibly interesting sociopolitical dilemma you rarely hear of or consider.

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#1181

Post by ChrisReynolds » February 11th, 2018, 2:32 am

weirdboy on Feb 8 2018, 07:56:08 AM wrote:Good luck seeing Ex Libris, internet.
Is it hard to find? If anybody's around London, it's showing this Tuesday at the Curzon Bloomsbury.

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#1182

Post by tourdesb » February 11th, 2018, 11:40 am

ChrisReynolds on Feb 10 2018, 07:32:28 PM wrote:
weirdboy on Feb 8 2018, 07:56:08 AM wrote:Good luck seeing Ex Libris, internet.
Is it hard to find? If anybody's around London, it's showing this Tuesday at the Curzon Bloomsbury.
In France, the theatrical release was 3 months ago but it still airs these days.
Its DVD release is in 3 weeks, so it should be easy to find online soon.

Great documentary btw.
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#1183

Post by tobias » March 6th, 2018, 1:48 am

How is it looking with the top 1001-2000 becomming official btw?

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#1184

Post by joachimt » March 6th, 2018, 2:25 pm

tobias on Mar 5 2018, 06:48:26 PM wrote:How is it looking with the top 1001-2000 becomming official btw?
Not in a hurry, but we certainly consider doing so in the next batch.
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#1185

Post by Panunzio » March 6th, 2018, 5:38 pm

joachimt on Mar 6 2018, 07:25:57 AM wrote:
tobias on Mar 5 2018, 06:48:26 PM wrote:How is it looking with the top 1001-2000 becomming official btw?
Not in a hurry, but we certainly consider doing so in the next batch.
Any estimate on when the next batch may be?

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#1186

Post by Knaldskalle » March 6th, 2018, 5:42 pm

Panunzio on Mar 6 2018, 10:38:40 AM wrote:
joachimt on Mar 6 2018, 07:25:57 AM wrote:
tobias on Mar 5 2018, 06:48:26 PM wrote:How is it looking with the top 1001-2000 becomming official btw?
Not in a hurry, but we certainly consider doing so in the next batch.
Any estimate on when the next batch may be?
2018 is the best estimate right now. :P
Personal film goals for 2019.
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#1187

Post by joachimt » March 6th, 2018, 6:53 pm

Knaldskalle on Mar 6 2018, 10:42:42 AM wrote:
Panunzio on Mar 6 2018, 10:38:40 AM wrote:
joachimt on Mar 6 2018, 07:25:57 AM wrote:Not in a hurry, but we certainly consider doing so in the next batch.
Any estimate on when the next batch may be?
2018 is the best estimate right now. :P
Don't be too optimistic! :o
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#1188

Post by zuma » March 6th, 2018, 7:02 pm

joachimt on Mar 6 2018, 11:53:55 AM wrote:
Knaldskalle on Mar 6 2018, 10:42:42 AM wrote:
Panunzio on Mar 6 2018, 10:38:40 AM wrote:Any estimate on when the next batch may be?
2018 is the best estimate right now. :P
Don't be too optimistic! :o
:'( :'(

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#1189

Post by tommy_leazaq » April 7th, 2018, 8:04 pm

tommy_leazaq on Mar 21 2015, 02:27:30 PM wrote:I have finally got Bronze in this list. YAY!!
After three years, Got Silver today!! :banana:
Last edited by tommy_leazaq on April 7th, 2018, 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#1190

Post by xianjiro » April 8th, 2018, 1:39 am

:cheers: congratulations! keep on truckin' :run:

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#1191

Post by nimimerkillinen » April 20th, 2018, 4:06 pm

is there a imdb list for the 1001-2000?

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#1192

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » April 20th, 2018, 4:08 pm

nimimerkillinen on Apr 20 2018, 10:06:32 AM wrote:is there a imdb list for the 1001-2000?
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls021198892/
All my TSPDT lists are (or at least should be) interlinked.
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#1193

Post by nimimerkillinen » April 20th, 2018, 5:01 pm

PeacefulAnarchy on Apr 20 2018, 10:08:06 AM wrote:
nimimerkillinen on Apr 20 2018, 10:06:32 AM wrote:is there a imdb list for the 1001-2000?
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls021198892/
All my TSPDT lists are (or at least should be) interlinked.
great, thanks!

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#1194

Post by Lakigigar » August 22nd, 2018, 1:17 pm

Don't know where to post it.

TSPDT: 93/1001 (#44067)
21st century most acclaimed movies: 191/1001 (#12352)

Unseen in top 10: In The Mood For Love (though i'm going to watch that movie tonight, rent it from library), Yi Yi, There Will Be Blood, Caché, The Tree of Life and Sud pralad.

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#1195

Post by TheConsigliere » January 21st, 2019, 10:51 am

2019 edition is now live! http://theyshootpictures.com/gf1000.htm

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#1196

Post by St. Gloede » January 21st, 2019, 1:31 pm

Been waiting for this!

(DTC right around the corner)

Where is the overview of the new entries?

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#1197

Post by albajos » January 21st, 2019, 1:38 pm

it's all in the tables. New in the 1000

702 --- Audition Miike, Takashi 1999 Japan 115
709 --- Let the Right One In Alfredson, Tomas 2008 Sweden 114
723 --- Amour Haneke, Michael 2012 Austria 127
763 --- Irréversible Noé, Gaspar 2002 France 97
801 --- Once Upon a Time in Anatolia Ceylan, Nuri Bilge 2011 Turkey 150
825 --- Fata Morgana Herzog, Werner 1971 West Germany 78
835 --- D'Est Akerman, Chantal 1993 Belgium 107
869 --- Mary Poppins Stevenson, Robert 1964 USA 139
883 --- Good Morning Ozu, Yasujiro 1959 Japan 94
887 --- Last Bolshevik, The Marker, Chris 1993 France 120
897 --- Man of the West Mann, Anthony 1958 USA 100
899 --- Enter the Dragon Clouse, Robert 1973 USA 97
900 --- Cría cuervos Saura, Carlos 1976 Spain 110
906 --- Stroszek Herzog, Werner 1977 West Germany 115
937 --- Malcolm X Lee, Spike 1992 USA 201
938 --- Strangers When We Meet Quine, Richard 1960 USA 117
946 --- Stand by Me Reiner, Rob 1986 USA 87
948 --- Broadway Danny Rose Allen, Woody 1984 USA 86
952 --- Phantom Carriage, The Sjöström, Victor 1921 Sweden 93
955 --- Second Breath Melville, Jean-Pierre 1966 France 144
957 --- Elevator to the Gallows Malle, Louis 1958 France 92
958 --- Broadcast News Brooks, James L. 1987 USA 133
966 --- Deep Red Argento, Dario 1975 Italy 98
974 --- Caro diario Moretti, Nanni 1994 Italy 100
976 --- Humanity and Paper Balloons Yamanaka, Sadao 1937 Japan 86
979 --- Unknown, The Browning, Tod 1927 USA 65
980 --- Straight Story, The Lynch, David 1999 USA 111
983 --- Diary Perlov, David 1983 Israel 330
987 --- Female Trouble Waters, John 1974 USA 95
995 --- Carnival of Souls Harvey, Herk 1962 USA 80
996 --- Oedipus Rex Pasolini, Pier Paolo 1967 Italy 110

Newest movie in the list is from 2012.

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#1198

Post by St. Gloede » January 21st, 2019, 1:53 pm

Thank you, Albajos!

I had seen everything already on the list, these are the new entries I'm yet to see:

801 --- Once Upon a Time in Anatolia Ceylan, Nuri Bilge 2011 Turkey 150
835 --- D'Est Akerman, Chantal 1993 Belgium 107
887 --- Last Bolshevik, The Marker, Chris 1993 France 120
983 --- Diary Perlov, David 1983 Israel 330

Trust TSPDT to get a 5 hour and 30 minute film in there. :D

The first 3 were all films high on my watchlist, and I already have the first 2, good push to see them. Diary on the other hand will likely be left for later this year (unless I just wish for the best from 2020). Anyone seen it here?

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#1199

Post by Traveller » January 21st, 2019, 2:07 pm

Based on a quick glance, I think I'm now 26 films away from completing the list, which I might be able to do this year - for the first time.
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#1200

Post by Coryn » January 21st, 2019, 2:09 pm

946 --- Stand by Me Reiner, Rob 1986 USA 87

One of the best coming of age movies imo.
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