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TSPDT updates

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insomnia
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TSPDT updates

#1121

Post by insomnia » February 7th, 2018, 4:29 pm

Step Brothers is definitely on there due to the BBC comedy poll.

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#1122

Post by OldAle1 » February 7th, 2018, 4:43 pm

Looks like I'll end up with a +10 or so after a cursory glance. Of the entrants I am most pleased about the two Robert Beavers films; finally some new-ish experimental work on the list that I've actually seen (and love). Most of my favorites from 2016-17 are represented now I think; those that aren't include Wonderstruck, Loving Vincent, Your Name, Colossal and War for the Planet of the Apes. Two of those are animated and it strikes me that TSP is rather weak on animated features, not something I've given a whole lot of thought to before but wondering if others see this?
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#1123

Post by brokenface » February 7th, 2018, 6:04 pm

cinewest on Feb 7 2018, 07:44:54 AM wrote:Re. the TSPDT 21st century list, while I have referred to it a lot over the years (there really isn't anything comparable for contemporary films), and respect both the depth and variety of its contents, it is decidedly overripe with American culture, and particularly enamored with the American Indie.

While there were no exciting changes this year (other than the additions of 2017 films), as the curator says in his intro, it should get a lot more interesting in a couple of years, when lists come out that reflect upon the decade, as well as reassess (and hopefully discover) films going back to the beginning of this century.

Personally, I continue to be baffled by the high regard given to films like Lost In Translation (perhaps my least favorite of the top 50) and Eternal Sunshine (which at least has the genius of Charlie Kaufman and Jim Carey providing a real boost), not to mention Before Sunset, Sideways, Boyhood, The Royal Tennenbaums, and Punch Drunk Love (OK, this one also has genius). Now add Elephant, and Social Network, and you pretty much have 20% of the list devoted to contemporary American Culture in all its quirky dis-functionality.

I've seen 44 of the top 50, and while I liked all of them (even Lost In Translation), I only consider about half worthy of a top 50 or top 100 placement.

But it's not the just unchanging top 50 that I have issues with, it is that, for all the list's variety, it is dominated by films with similar characteristics, just as the original TSPDT 1000 is dominated by American genre films.

As with the TSPDT top 1000, more than 50% of the films on the 21st Century list were made in English, which is even more of a bias in today's world, where so many different countries (58 are represented by at least 1 film) are producing excellent cinema in a language other than English.

Of the 16 filmmakers with more than 5 films on the list, 11 work in English (and all 11 are white males).

Don't get me wrong. I am all for acknowledging and honoring the best quality films and filmmakers irregardless of who they are or where they come from, but I think it's important to be aware of the biases that exist among those sourced for this list, which become self evident when the list is truly examined.
There's certainly bias on source, it's very much a western perspective list as it's primarily sourced from western (particarly US-GB) critics which equally biases the non-English selection where particular directors have reached that audience & show up repeatedly and other stuff gets overlooked. Take the top 8 Chinese films on the list:

1. Tie Xi Qu
2. Platform (Zhangke Jia)
3. Still Life (Zhangke Jia)
4. The World (Zhangke Jia)
5. Hero (Yimou)
6. House of Flying Daggers (Yimou)
7. Unknown Pleasures (Zhangke Jia)
8. A Touch of Sin (Zhangke Jia)

But I don't think you could ever really get a true global perspective list. Weighting the 'correct' balance of source lists would be an impossible task and, even if you could, I think the list you end up with would probably equally dissatisfying to everyone's tastes 'cause it would end up with fairly token representation of everything.

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#1124

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » February 7th, 2018, 6:09 pm

I'll work on updating the ICM list in a bit.

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#1125

Post by flaiky » February 7th, 2018, 6:14 pm

I'm always stumped when people say they see nothing special about Boyhood. There's never been anything like it in cinema.
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#1126

Post by OldAle1 » February 7th, 2018, 6:24 pm

flaiky on Feb 7 2018, 11:14:47 AM wrote:I'm always stumped when people say they see nothing special about Boyhood. There's never been anything like it in cinema.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that, but if I assume that you mean "nothing filmed over a decade with the same cast aging naturally", then that's not exactly true. Lav Diaz' Ebolusyon ng isang pamilyang Pilipino charts a family history over a longer period (16 years) and was filmed over 9 years with some of the cast working throughout. So it's not exactly the same thing because the timeframe isn't 1:1 - also it's told in an elliptical achronological narrative style - but he does make use of real aging and real time passing. There may be some other examples as well but that's the one that stands out. Of course it never got a commercial release anywhere so Boyhood may well be unique in that aspect.
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#1127

Post by Knaldskalle » February 7th, 2018, 6:25 pm

flaiky on Feb 7 2018, 11:14:47 AM wrote:I'm always stumped when people say they see nothing special about Boyhood. There's never been anything like it in cinema.
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#1128

Post by Gershwin » February 7th, 2018, 6:27 pm

And a few documentaries of course: the Up series, the Golzow series ...
Besides Linklater already did his Before trilogy.
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#1129

Post by Fergenaprido » February 7th, 2018, 6:35 pm

Gershwin on Feb 7 2018, 11:27:31 AM wrote:And a few documentaries of course: the Up series, the Golzow series ...
Besides Linklater already did his Before trilogy.
He started filming Boyhood before the second Before film, so I wouldn't say "already" ;)
Just happened that films 2 & 3 were released before Boyhood.

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#1130

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » February 7th, 2018, 7:11 pm

ICM list updated.

Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/peacefulanarchy/ ... ey-21st-1/
Imdb list will wait until this evening.
Last edited by PeacefulAnarchy on February 7th, 2018, 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#1131

Post by Darth Nevets » February 7th, 2018, 7:18 pm

PeacefulAnarchy on Feb 7 2018, 12:11:18 PM wrote:ICM list updated.
Dropped 20 checks to 513 but not bad overall considering 73 film I haven't seen were added.

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#1132

Post by Nathan Treadway » February 7th, 2018, 7:19 pm

Wow! Shirin somehow made it?! I would've never expected that, but, I'm not complaining. I just lose another one off my unofficial favorites list.

Picked up 4 (560 -> 564)
Last edited by Nathan Treadway on February 7th, 2018, 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:37-40)

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#1133

Post by Darth Nevets » February 7th, 2018, 7:29 pm

Gershwin on Feb 7 2018, 11:27:31 AM wrote:And a few documentaries of course: the Up series, the Golzow series ...
Besides Linklater already did his Before trilogy.
Although the Up movies and his own Before series were interesting experiments Truffaut used the same conceit for his AD quadrilogy. Basically any sequel (like the HP series) will have actors aging in between films and slightly during. Since actual time has passed there was often development completely offscreen. What Boyhood did is make a coming of age story without the (often necessary) use of recasting and makeup. By waiting Linklater made an extremely authentic snapshot of every moment in that moment. He didn't film a scene that took place at age 9 and the next hour one at age 12, allowing him to make something truly nostalgic without the artifice of even looking back.

Now granted the characters and scenes were largely stock, amorphous everypeople. But the effect of putting life onscreen all at once was really immaculate.

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#1134

Post by AdamH » February 7th, 2018, 7:40 pm

albajos on Jan 19 2018, 04:10:06 PM wrote:Those decisions is past - Yes, that is exactly the problem. This is just the taste of a few ruining the quality of the site. And nobody wants to discuss it.

But as you say, if you don't like it, don't use the site. Please put that in a blog on icm as well, and see how many that like the arrogance.
Albajos hasn't been back since this post. Bizarre. All because some people want TSP 1001-2000 to be made official. Wish I knew why he got the impression of "But as you say, if you don't like it, don't use the site" because I didn't see anyone saying anything like that. Hopefully he'll come back as he was a good poster.

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#1135

Post by flaiky » February 7th, 2018, 7:41 pm

(Dark Nevets beat me too it - I couldn't reply straight away - but I want to give my planned response anyway!)

I disagree that the Up, Before, and Harry Potter series are the same as Boyhood - I'm not talking about returning to the same characters or individuals after time has passed, but the sensation of having a dedicated, contained piece that allows you to authentically see people grow, age and develop over more than a decade. It's like the time-lapse version of human existence; really an amazing achievement.

It does sound like Evolution of a Philipino Family is close. I didn't know that was filmed over 9 years, very cool. But yes I think it's a little different if it's not perfectly reflecting the time period. I really need to see it! Because yes, admittedly the passage of time is one of my favourite themes and I'm a sucker for anything that explores it (it's one of the main reasons I'm loving the new TV series This Is Us). So I was the perfect audience for Boyhood, but even if I wasn't, I dunno, I can't imagine that I'd fail to appreciate what an unique experience Linklater delivered.
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#1136

Post by cinewest » February 7th, 2018, 7:41 pm

brokenface on Feb 7 2018, 11:04:34 AM wrote:
cinewest on Feb 7 2018, 07:44:54 AM wrote:Re. the TSPDT 21st century list, while I have referred to it a lot over the years (there really isn't anything comparable for contemporary films), and respect both the depth and variety of its contents, it is decidedly overripe with American culture, and particularly enamored with the American Indie.

While there were no exciting changes this year (other than the additions of 2017 films), as the curator says in his intro, it should get a lot more interesting in a couple of years, when lists come out that reflect upon the decade, as well as reassess (and hopefully discover) films going back to the beginning of this century.

Personally, I continue to be baffled by the high regard given to films like Lost In Translation (perhaps my least favorite of the top 50) and Eternal Sunshine (which at least has the genius of Charlie Kaufman and Jim Carey providing a real boost), not to mention Before Sunset, Sideways, Boyhood, The Royal Tennenbaums, and Punch Drunk Love (OK, this one also has genius). Now add Elephant, and Social Network, and you pretty much have 20% of the list devoted to contemporary American Culture in all its quirky dis-functionality.

I've seen 44 of the top 50, and while I liked all of them (even Lost In Translation), I only consider about half worthy of a top 50 or top 100 placement.

But it's not the just unchanging top 50 that I have issues with, it is that, for all the list's variety, it is dominated by films with similar characteristics, just as the original TSPDT 1000 is dominated by American genre films.

As with the TSPDT top 1000, more than 50% of the films on the 21st Century list were made in English, which is even more of a bias in today's world, where so many different countries (58 are represented by at least 1 film) are producing excellent cinema in a language other than English.

Of the 16 filmmakers with more than 5 films on the list, 11 work in English (and all 11 are white males).

Don't get me wrong. I am all for acknowledging and honoring the best quality films and filmmakers irregardless of who they are or where they come from, but I think it's important to be aware of the biases that exist among those sourced for this list, which become self evident when the list is truly examined.
There's certainly bias on source, it's very much a western perspective list as it's primarily sourced from western (particarly US-GB) critics which equally biases the non-English selection where particular directors have reached that audience & show up repeatedly and other stuff gets overlooked. Take the top 8 Chinese films on the list:

1. Tie Xi Qu
2. Platform (Zhangke Jia)
3. Still Life (Zhangke Jia)
4. The World (Zhangke Jia)
5. Hero (Yimou)
6. House of Flying Daggers (Yimou)
7. Unknown Pleasures (Zhangke Jia)
8. A Touch of Sin (Zhangke Jia)

But I don't think you could ever really get a true global perspective list. Weighting the 'correct' balance of source lists would be an impossible task and, even if you could, I think the list you end up with would probably equally dissatisfying to everyone's tastes 'cause it would end up with fairly token representation of everything.
I agree that it is impossible to come up with a list that would provide a "true global perspective" much less represent or satisfy everyone.
Like you say, the list would probably get worse... not necessarily because of "token films (that's what the list has now*)," but because the more mainstream films that more people can connect with would probably end up having the most appeal.

If you look at the countries represented on the list, once you get past America, England, and France, what's left are essentially token films from other countries (the 4th most represented country out of 58 is Germany, and there are 28 German films on the list of 1000. Of course this is more pronounced when you reach countries like Brazil, Mexico, and Chile, which all have 5 or 6, or when you reach Poland and Czech Republic, which each only have one).

Funny you should mention China, since I have been living there since 2015, and can tell you that audiences and critics here/there are less sophisticated than they are in big city America. In fact, some of the most popular films in China over the past couple of years have been American blockbuster rejects, and the most popular Chinese made films are even worse.
As for the most praised films / filmmakers, while Zhang Yimou is treated like a God, Zhangke Jia is not very well known, and there are very very few venues for non-commercial cinema, even in a huge city like Beijing.

I imagine that a filmmaker like Spielberg would be very popular in China, both for his dramas, as well as his action movies because of his humanism, and the fact that he expresses everything so clearly.
Last edited by cinewest on February 7th, 2018, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#1137

Post by blueboybob » February 7th, 2018, 7:46 pm

+2 checked meh

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#1138

Post by Nathan Treadway » February 7th, 2018, 7:46 pm

Films Gaining Official StatusShow
Visages, villages
A Ghost Story
A Quiet Passion
Western
Trilogia: To livadi pou dakryzei
Zama
Nocturama
Une visite au Louvre
Serras da desordem
Grave
Adam & Paul
Mudbound
Daratt
Dawson City: Frozen Time
Jiabiangou
Ex Libris : New York Public Library
Lady Macbeth
La frontière de l'aube
Into Eternity: A Film for the Future
Hat Wolff von Amerongen Konkursdelikte begangen?
Independencia
Bacalaureat
Shirin
120 battements par minute
Triple agent
Films Losing Official StatusShow
Room 237
The Last King of Scotland
Los abrazos rotos
The Secret Lives of Dentists
Une vieille maîtresse
Millions
Le passé
Be Kind Rewind
The White Diamond
Win Win
Laissez-passer
Archipelago
Young Adult
Love & Basketball
Closer
Sehnsucht
Un lac
Schaste moe
Thank You for Smoking
La ville est tranquille
The Grey
Only God Forgives
Ling yi ban
Thirteen Conversations About One Thing
Calvary
L'homme du train
Kiseki
Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby
Heaven Knows What
Le père de mes enfants
Ararat
Il y a longtemps que je t'aime
The Queen of Versailles
Our Song
The Tailor of Panama
Mutual Appreciation
Lars and the Real Girl
Deep Water
E Agora? Lembra-me
Bikur Ha-Tizmoret
Deliver Us from Evil
Old School
The Order of Myths
Frownland
Life Itself
The Mother
Thirteen
Krisha
Last edited by Nathan Treadway on February 7th, 2018, 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:37-40)

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#1139

Post by Nathan Treadway » February 7th, 2018, 7:48 pm

AdamH on Feb 7 2018, 12:40:17 PM wrote:
albajos on Jan 19 2018, 04:10:06 PM wrote:Those decisions is past - Yes, that is exactly the problem. This is just the taste of a few ruining the quality of the site. And nobody wants to discuss it.

But as you say, if you don't like it, don't use the site. Please put that in a blog on icm as well, and see how many that like the arrogance.
Albajos hasn't been back since this post. Bizarre. All because some people want TSP 1001-2000 to be made official. Wish I knew why he got the impression of "But as you say, if you don't like it, don't use the site" because I didn't see anyone saying anything like that. Hopefully he'll come back as he was a good poster.
He just checked his first batch of films since then, as well...
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“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:37-40)

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#1140

Post by insomnia » February 7th, 2018, 8:50 pm

Went from 619 to 631 and I'm gaining 5 official checks. Not bad.
Last edited by insomnia on February 7th, 2018, 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#1141

Post by nimimerkillinen » February 7th, 2018, 9:24 pm

is there a icm list of drop offs?
this was last updated 2012 https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/the+ ... kasparius/
would be great to have it official too :P

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#1142

Post by Timec » February 7th, 2018, 9:34 pm

I lost a net of five official checks (in spite of gaining 9 checks overall) - but I'm happy, cause my two favorite movies of last year are newly official.
Last edited by Timec on February 7th, 2018, 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#1143

Post by Nathan Treadway » February 7th, 2018, 9:39 pm

nimimerkillinen on Feb 7 2018, 02:24:55 PM wrote:is there a icm list of drop offs?
Here's this years:

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/21st ... waynathan/
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“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:37-40)

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#1144

Post by Cocoa » February 7th, 2018, 9:40 pm

396 -> 380. Down by 16 :lol: :'(

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#1145

Post by AdamH » February 7th, 2018, 10:40 pm

257 seen. Not sure what I was on before. 3 out of the top 10 unseen. Yi Yi, Cache and Sud pralad.

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#1146

Post by GruesomeTwosome » February 7th, 2018, 10:41 pm

I'm at 382 seen, now. I THINK I went up after this update. I seem to recall being at around 371 the last time I looked at the list.
I’m to remember every man I've seen fall into a plate of spaghetti???

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#1147

Post by dirty_score » February 7th, 2018, 11:00 pm

What a great year for Step Brothers and The Notebook! In less than a month they went from nada to 2 lists!


Lots of good movies going unofficial. Hope they don't get forgotten.


This update was not cool for me. :down:

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#1148

Post by TheConsigliere » February 7th, 2018, 11:23 pm

Think I went up overall, but there were some very disappointing drop-offs. Most notable ones for me personally are My Joy (Schaste moe) and Deep Water - both are masterpieces in my opinion and there is just no way they don't crack the top 1000 of the past 18 years.

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#1149

Post by max-scl » February 7th, 2018, 11:29 pm

Aquarius a drpp off? i thought it would jump many places!

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#1150

Post by Good_Will_Harding » February 7th, 2018, 11:59 pm

Knaldskalle on Feb 7 2018, 11:25:12 AM wrote:
flaiky on Feb 7 2018, 11:14:47 AM wrote:I'm always stumped when people say they see nothing special about Boyhood. There's never been anything like it in cinema.
Harry Potter.
Hardly comparable. The Potter series did it over the course of eight separate films released over a whole decade, with a revolving door of different directors and various other crew members like DP's, musical score composers, etc. I think the point flaiky was trying to make - which I would 100% agree with - is that it had never been tried in one single contained fictional narrative feature with the exact same cast & crew the entire way through.

And if we're talking about the quality of the films themselves, then Boyhood surpasses even the best of the Potter films by a Hogwarts sized margin.

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#1151

Post by weirdboy » February 8th, 2018, 4:31 am

Good_Will_Harding on Feb 7 2018, 04:59:29 PM wrote:
Knaldskalle on Feb 7 2018, 11:25:12 AM wrote:
flaiky on Feb 7 2018, 11:14:47 AM wrote:I'm always stumped when people say they see nothing special about Boyhood. There's never been anything like it in cinema.
Harry Potter.
Hardly comparable. The Potter series did it over the course of eight separate films released over a whole decade, with a revolving door of different directors and various other crew members like DP's, musical score composers, etc. I think the point flaiky was trying to make - which I would 100% agree with - is that it had never been tried in one single contained fictional narrative feature with the exact same cast & crew the entire way through.

And if we're talking about the quality of the films themselves, then Boyhood surpasses even the best of the Potter films by a Hogwarts sized margin.
To be fair you can also see the same sort of concept coming to fruition in Linklater's Before... series of films, and in the Up! documentary series.

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#1152

Post by Ebbywebby » February 8th, 2018, 5:08 am

Not quite sure how the math works, but it appears that I lost nine checks overall and four checks just on that list.

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#1153

Post by Good_Will_Harding » February 8th, 2018, 5:09 am

weirdboy on Feb 7 2018, 09:31:25 PM wrote:
Good_Will_Harding on Feb 7 2018, 04:59:29 PM wrote:
Knaldskalle on Feb 7 2018, 11:25:12 AM wrote:Harry Potter.
Hardly comparable. The Potter series did it over the course of eight separate films released over a whole decade, with a revolving door of different directors and various other crew members like DP's, musical score composers, etc. I think the point flaiky was trying to make - which I would 100% agree with - is that it had never been tried in one single contained fictional narrative feature with the exact same cast & crew the entire way through.

And if we're talking about the quality of the films themselves, then Boyhood surpasses even the best of the Potter films by a Hogwarts sized margin.
To be fair you can also see the same sort of concept coming to fruition in Linklater's Before... series of films, and in the Up! documentary series.
Yes, but again, I think the original point was that Boyhood did it in one single standalone film that exists solely on its own and not as one part of an ongoing series of films.
Last edited by Good_Will_Harding on February 8th, 2018, 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#1154

Post by tourdesb » February 8th, 2018, 8:59 am

Went from 733 to 714.
My highest unseen is now Get Out.
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#1155

Post by nimimerkillinen » February 8th, 2018, 9:42 am

Nathan Treadway on Feb 7 2018, 02:39:58 PM wrote:
nimimerkillinen on Feb 7 2018, 02:24:55 PM wrote:is there a icm list of drop offs?
Here's this years:

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/21st ... waynathan/
cheers, i guess there isnt list for all years total then? :(

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nimimerkillinen
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#1156

Post by nimimerkillinen » February 8th, 2018, 9:55 am

lost 16 official checks, gained 4
634/1001

Nathan Treadway
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#1157

Post by Nathan Treadway » February 8th, 2018, 9:56 am

nimimerkillinen on Feb 8 2018, 02:42:54 AM wrote:
Nathan Treadway on Feb 7 2018, 02:39:58 PM wrote:
nimimerkillinen on Feb 7 2018, 02:24:55 PM wrote:is there a icm list of drop offs?
Here's this years:

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/21st ... waynathan/
cheers, i guess there isnt list for all years total then? :(
Not sure. I can probably put it together. It's only been 1000 for a few years. Most of what was on it before then probably still is.
iCM

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:37-40)

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#1158

Post by Cippenham » February 8th, 2018, 10:56 am

Seen 525 and only 2 not seen in top 100 highest being Carol but I am not working on this list
Turning over a new leaf :ICM:

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#1159

Post by flaiky » February 8th, 2018, 12:09 pm

I lost about 5 checks on the list, but rose 35 places. I guess others lost more.
Let the ashes fly
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#1160

Post by flaiky » February 8th, 2018, 12:18 pm

weirdboy on Feb 7 2018, 09:31:25 PM wrote:To be fair you can also see the same sort of concept coming to fruition in Linklater's Before... series of films, and in the Up! documentary series.
Same concept, but Boyhood actually, and seamlessly, showed 12 consistent years of growth and change within 2.5 hours. A unique and incredible undertaking.
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