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Amos Vogel's film as a subversive art list

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mjf314
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#1041

Post by mjf314 »

Serriform on Nov 26 2014, 09:34:40 PM wrote:anyone have the writeup from vogel about the bestiality one?
WHY
(HVORFOR GOER DE DET?)
(Phyllis and Eberhard Kronhausen, Denmark, 1971) (F)
The well-known sex researchers and proponents of
erotic freedom present a plea for sexual tolerance
in the form of a factual, non-moralistic portrayal
of unorthodox sex acts. Revealing yet unsensational
interviews with the protagonists are interspersed
with discussions with bored, fascinated, scared or
aroused Danish university students, who watch the
proceedings in a sports arena transformed into a sex
emporium by two exercise mattresses in its center.

The first episode involves a passionate and arousing
Negro-White lesbian episode. After a great deal of
athletic, obviously unstaged lovemaking on-camera,
the beautiful black girl discusses the relationship
in poignant detail; she regrets not having a penis,
so that they could have a baby and get married
("there is no point in being married without a penis").

The second episode features simultaneous copulation
by two married couples, who, in addition to their nude
lovemaking before the students, are also shown in their
petty-bourgeois homes. Surrounded by knick-knacks
and family portraits, they discuss whether they can reach
orgasm during their public performances and explain,
under the circumstances somewhat incongruously, their
distaste for group sex or acting in pornographic films.

The third episode involves the famous Danish girl-farmer
who loves her animals. We see her lying across the back of
a bull, vainly trying for arousal by masturbating him. While
flies settle on her legs, of which she remains unaware, she
plaintively explains that they may have to get a heifer "to get
him started". But she is luckier with her pet dog who after-
wards whines jealously throughout a lengthy sex act
between her and her boyfriend. The most romantic
sequence involves the mating of two horses ("you can't
do it with a stallion, he'd split you apart", she remarks
wistfully); the job done, the sudden plopping out of his
organ sends waves of shocked laughter through the
audience. We see her locket, with a picture of her dog;
we learn the various techniques of doing it with animals;
we discover in a curiously honest, simplistic interview
that her mother considered sex dirty; and perhaps
we do learn the tolerance the Kronhausens wish to feel.
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#1042

Post by serri »

hmm thank you. among other things, seems really remiss of vogel to not address that the film might be interpreted as establishing an equivalence between acts of consenting adults and animal abuse. but I wouldn't watch the film... guess I hold myself to a higher standard than monty. ;)
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#1043

Post by monty »

Serriform on Nov 26 2014, 09:45:44 PM wrote:... guess I hold myself to a higher standard than monty. ;)
I prefer not to read much - if anything - about films before I watch them. My rather traumatic experience with this Vogel made me re-evaluate the wisdom of that view. For anyone who considers working on Amos' list, please do read the write-up for each entry before deciding if you want to go ahead and watch it.
Last edited by monty on November 27th, 2014, 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#1044

Post by Armoreska »

An old comment on the list:
While this is still (probably) an obscure film, Nick MacDonald's Palestine has an imdb page. I have just added it to the database; can someone add it to the list?
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/palestine/
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#1045

Post by joachimt »

Armoreska on Nov 13 2016, 01:44:11 PM wrote:An old comment on the list:
While this is still (probably) an obscure film, Nick MacDonald's Palestine has an imdb page. I have just added it to the database; can someone add it to the list?
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/palestine/
Done
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#1047

Post by monty »

Thanks for tracking it down, neffie.
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#1048

Post by WalterNeff »

monty on Apr 20 2017, 03:07:37 AM wrote:Thanks for tracking it down, neffie.
:thumbsup:
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#1049

Post by Ebbywebby »

Strange how the music sounds so warped and wobbly, yet the narration is fine.
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#1050

Post by Fergenaprido »

Ebbywebby on Apr 20 2017, 08:44:51 PM wrote:Strange how the music sounds so warped and wobbly, yet the narration is fine.
The narration is also garbled as some points, most noticeably at the beginning. At parts I think the film jumps a few frames because the dialogue is a bit rough at a few parts.
🧚‍♂️🦫
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#1051

Post by Armoreska »

Valparaiso, Valparaiso was subbed!
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and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#1052

Post by Armoreska »

he or A. or Armo or any

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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#1053

Post by Ebbywebby »

Armoreska on Sep 28 2017, 03:52:50 PM wrote:New short
Hiroshima: A Document of the Atomic Bombing
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/hir ... no+kiroru/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKqZYeErJfs
Nice find! Will watch soon.
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#1054

Post by xianjiro »

Armoreska on Sep 28 2017, 03:52:50 PM wrote:New short
Hiroshima: A Document of the Atomic Bombing
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/hir ... no+kiroru/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKqZYeErJfs
Thanks! :thumbsup:
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#1055

Post by Armoreska »

hmm isnt "Love story" only mentioned, and in the negative way? well ill watch it anyway, it's on the box office list and the score is cool
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and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#1056

Post by Armoreska »

Subs for Geschichten vom Kübelkind are now available
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/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#1057

Post by Armoreska »

Please all watch this fresh Vogel short:
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/running+shadow/
We need to get it over 400 checks as soon as possible :P
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/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#1058

Post by Armoreska »

Curious how the only time farts are mentioned in the book is in relation to an Ozu film.
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/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#1059

Post by xianjiro »

farting is subversive art? Hmmm, then most modern comedies should be listed as arthouse, no?
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#1060

Post by Armoreska »

xianjiro wrote: December 28th, 2020, 9:15 pm farting is subversive art? Hmmm, then most modern comedies should be listed as arthouse, no?
well it's a 1974 list. it's probably only subversive for its time and when Ozu types film it. but ofc he's made lighthearted movies decades before Ohayo.
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/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
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#1061

Post by Apu »

At the beginning of the book, Vogel states: "The letter F appearing after a film title denotes that this is a feature film".

This is from the entry of Otto Muehl's notorious Sodoma (16 minutes). I've shortened the text a bit. Note the letter F. Please also note that Vogel writes about Scheiss-Kerl (1969) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0983912/ - and overall seem to view Sodoma as a collection of Muehl shorts, where he consideres Scheiss-Kerl to be an episode from Sodoma:

SODOMA
(Otto Muehl, Austria, 1970) (F)
A scene from Otto Mueh's "happenings"
evokes, in its sado-masochist horror and defilement,the evil memories
(if not present realities) of a civilization of concentration camps and genocide.
______________________________________________
Muehl's films -- of which Sodoma is the most famous --
are based on his notorious "Materialaktionen"; live
happenings, involving nude protagonists in real and
extravagant acts of sexual violence and defilement.

Muehl cannot be understood except as the product of
a continent that experienced within half a century two
world wars and the crushing trauma of Nazism; there is a
stench of concentration camps, collective guilt, unbridled
aggression, hallucinatory violence that -- however relevatory --
has the dimensions of an atavistic generalized myth of evil.
If these are works of defilement -- as they surely are -- they
reflect a society of defilement; they capture its essence by
means of harrowing violence and perverse sexuality. To
Muehl, the only way to exorcise this cruelty is by recreaing
it in the protected environment of theatrical space,
cruelly confronting the spectator not with fraudulent,
fictionalized simulations but with the act itself.
The "documentary" action recorded in Sodoma includes
fucking, fellation, masturbation, urination, the tying or
stringing up of participants (particularly women), the
insertion of various fluids or objects into vaginas, pumps
attached to penises; a complete demystification of sex
and its portrayal as a purely physiological, bodily act.
Most shocking is the "Scheisskerl" ("Shit-Ass") episode
(co-authored by Hanel Koeck)
, for here Muehl goes beyond
hardcore sex (no longer so daring nowadays) and enters
into the still forbidden realms of coprophilia. ("This film is
dedicated to shit eaters.") As one nude woman administers
an enema to another, a man lying beneath her waits, with
open mouth; not for long. Gagging under the sudden riches,
his nude body is lovingly smeared by the second woman
who then fellates, masturbates, and fucks him until he
lies in utter exhaustion, an inert, motionless object.




There is even a picture from Scheiss-Kerl later on (page 253, original 1974 version of the book) with the following accompanying text:


A woman administers an enema to
another in preparation for an act
of coprophilia involving Otto Muehl.
As in all of Muehl's "Materialaktionen",
the artist participates as accomplice in the
horrors and gruesome delights he portrays.
('Shit-Ass' episode in Otto Muehl's Sodoma,
co-authored by Hanel Koeck, Austria 1968-70).



Scheiss-Kerl is however not listed at the index of the book (this is in a sense logical since Sodoma is a featured film according to Vogel where "Scheiss-Kerl episode" is included), but then again not all films included in the icm list are. Should Scheiss-Kerl receive official list status?
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#1062

Post by kongs_speech »

Apu wrote: May 30th, 2021, 11:28 pm At the beginning of the book, Vogel states: "The letter F appearing after a film title denotes that this is a feature film".

This is from the entry of Otto Muehl's notorious Sodoma (16 minutes). I've shortened the text a bit. Note the letter F. Please also note that Vogel writes about Scheiss-Kerl (1969) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0983912/ - and overall seem to view Sodoma as a collection of Muehl shorts, where he consideres Scheiss-Kerl to be an episode from Sodoma:

SODOMA
(Otto Muehl, Austria, 1970) (F)
A scene from Otto Mueh's "happenings"
evokes, in its sado-masochist horror and defilement,the evil memories
(if not present realities) of a civilization of concentration camps and genocide.
______________________________________________
Muehl's films -- of which Sodoma is the most famous --
are based on his notorious "Materialaktionen"; live
happenings, involving nude protagonists in real and
extravagant acts of sexual violence and defilement.

Muehl cannot be understood except as the product of
a continent that experienced within half a century two
world wars and the crushing trauma of Nazism; there is a
stench of concentration camps, collective guilt, unbridled
aggression, hallucinatory violence that -- however relevatory --
has the dimensions of an atavistic generalized myth of evil.
If these are works of defilement -- as they surely are -- they
reflect a society of defilement; they capture its essence by
means of harrowing violence and perverse sexuality. To
Muehl, the only way to exorcise this cruelty is by recreaing
it in the protected environment of theatrical space,
cruelly confronting the spectator not with fraudulent,
fictionalized simulations but with the act itself.
The "documentary" action recorded in Sodoma includes
fucking, fellation, masturbation, urination, the tying or
stringing up of participants (particularly women), the
insertion of various fluids or objects into vaginas, pumps
attached to penises; a complete demystification of sex
and its portrayal as a purely physiological, bodily act.
Most shocking is the "Scheisskerl" ("Shit-Ass") episode
(co-authored by Hanel Koeck)
, for here Muehl goes beyond
hardcore sex (no longer so daring nowadays) and enters
into the still forbidden realms of coprophilia. ("This film is
dedicated to shit eaters.") As one nude woman administers
an enema to another, a man lying beneath her waits, with
open mouth; not for long. Gagging under the sudden riches,
his nude body is lovingly smeared by the second woman
who then fellates, masturbates, and fucks him until he
lies in utter exhaustion, an inert, motionless object.




There is even a picture from Scheiss-Kerl later on (page 253, original 1974 version of the book) with the following accompanying text:


A woman administers an enema to
another in preparation for an act
of coprophilia involving Otto Muehl.
As in all of Muehl's "Materialaktionen",
the artist participates as accomplice in the
horrors and gruesome delights he portrays.
('Shit-Ass' episode in Otto Muehl's Sodoma,
co-authored by Hanel Koeck, Austria 1968-70).



Scheiss-Kerl is however not listed at the index of the book (this is in a sense logical since Sodoma is a featured film according to Vogel where "Scheiss-Kerl episode" is included), but then again not all films included in the icm list are. Should Scheiss-Kerl receive official list status?
So you're saying I watched what we've been calling Sodoma for absolutely nothing? I'm going to murder someone over this.
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#1063

Post by Armoreska »

Or that you must watch more to get the full intended effect.

Thanks for digging wow how did nobody catch that? At least that episode is very out there.
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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#1064

Post by Armoreska »

Probably all of those are silently official but perhaps it's for the best that they are not.
https://www.ubu.com/film/muehl.html
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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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